What about "bumping down" in classification?

[rhino465]

We all know that if you shoot really well at a major match that the organization (either USPSA or IDPA) sometimes "bumps" you up a class or two.

Shouldn't the same thing be possible if you shoot much more poorly than others in your class, especially on a consistent basis? Many people do well on classifier stages or the IDPA classifier match, but don't do as well in the type of stages one encounters in regular matches.

For instance, if someone is a USPSA GM by classification, but they're always at the bottom of the M shooters, or even well down into the A shooters, wouldn't it make sense to move them down to M? Or in IDPA, someone is a Master according to the classifier, but major matches they always place among the sharpshooters?

Certainly it would hard on the ego for some, but it seem like it's only fair that if it can go one way, it should work the other way too.

For what it's worth, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a C-class/Sharpshooter, so there's not much place for me to move downward (although it wouldn't bother me), and I'm certainly no threat to get bumped upward.

[Jim Watson]

Are you talking about what you OUGHT to be able to do or what you CAN do about lowering your classification?
IDPA says: "Shooters may not go down in classification except for permanent physical disability or for other irrevocable reasons. IDPA HQ will determine this."
USPSA says: "Members may request to be moved to a lower class because of age or injury. The member must send a letter stating the reasons for reclassification to a lower class along with a letter from the club president or section coordinator endorsing the request. After the request has been received, the member's scores will be checked to see whether there are any recent scores that indicate the member is still properly classified.

The member will be notified of the decision in writing, and if the request is granted, a new classification card will be sent.

Please note that even if a member's current average drops into a lower classification bracket, the member will not automatically be reduced in class."


So you cannot go to a lower class just by shooting poorly, you have to apply on the basis that you are no longer able to compete in the class you peaked out at.
I think that if you could classify down, it would lead to a tidal wave of sandbagging by people who would rather win something than do their best at all times.

[RH45]

It CAN happen, but, I doubt that it's done very often!

[Hozer]

In Colorado it has happened exactly *once* in 10 years that I know of and I was the USPSA SC that petitioned Sedro to bump the guy down a notch. 5 years later I should have asked for 2 notches as his health and body wore him down that far to the point where he doesent shoot anymore.

[Ankeny]

Hey rhino...how ya been? I understand what you are asking, but I guess in the end it's up to the shooter to be asked for the downward bump. At our last state match I shot with a couple of guys who are getting along in years and they no longer perform up to par. But they earned their classification and they want to hang on to it.

I think USPSA wants the downward movement to be based on something permanent instead of moving guys down just because they don't practice anymore. I recently was moved down to A class. It is a bit tough on the ego.:crying:

[rhino465]

Hey, Ron! I am well, sir! I hope you are too!

Yeah, I know about getting moved downward by petition for a specific reason, which I've seen (and helped facilitate) a couple of times.

My thinking is more along the lines of just having it done to you by USPSA the same way they will bump you upward whether you like it or not based on major match performance. I'm talking about people who are more than capable of shooting classifiers at their current classification, but never perform even close to that level in a major match. It seems like it should work both ways, or it shouldn't be done at all.

There are "paper" GMs and Ms that will never get past the middle of the B or A pack in a major match for instance (and of course the same with lower classifications). Part of that is because of the inherent weaknesses in the classification system, although I don't see a good way to remedy it.

Of course, if I had my way, we'd have no divisions and if we needed classes, it would be Lewis Classes for any specific match ... no sandbagging (or grandbagging) possible. However, I recognize that more people are made happy with multiple divisions and classes, and since what others do doesn't affect me, it's not a significant issue.

[P.E. Kelley]

Well, I speak from personal experience.

I at the end of 1997 I was rated 18th of the Top 20 Grand Masters

After a couple of years of not being able to work hard enough to maintain

that level of excellence and feeling much the "paper tiger", I followed the

USPSA's procedure to demote myself to lowly master.

I had to get two signed statements from clubs that I regularly shot with

to confirm my request was legit.

I believe it is very rare but that is how I did it.

Patrick E. Kelley

TY14401

[rhino465]

Again, I'm not addressing the issue of a competitor requesting a reclassification, usually based on some changed circumstances.

I'm talking about the exact opposite of people performing better than their classification and getting moved up by the decision of USPSA whether the shooter likes it or not. I'm talking about shooters who are in the middle of the pack consistently two or more classes below their current classification, especially if they can still consistently shoot classifier stages at that level.

What I'm suggesting is that since the classification system does not always reflect the actual match performance ability (for whatever reason), USPSA should move people downward if they're going to continue to move people up based on major match performance.

[P.E. Kelley]

Rhino,

I am sorry, I now understand what you are thinking.

But what does this (lowering of rank) accomplish?

A black belt once earned, is yours.

Curious.

Patrick

[marvin]

i fought long and hard to make A class. since then i've gotten older and slower and would probably be a good C class shooter these days. i'd get pissed if they moved me down.

[Ankeny]

What I'm suggesting is that since the classification system does not always reflect the actual match performance ability (for whatever reason), USPSA should move people downward if they're going to continue to move people up based on major match performance. Actually, I agree with you. Even when I could churn out those 95% plus classifiers, I had so many physical problems that I sucked on a long course.

Let's call a spade a spade. Folks only get upset if they perceive they are getting stomped by a sandbagger. So, we move folks upwards at the drop of a hat. No one seems to care if the classification system isn't accurate in the case of losers.

[rhino465]

But what does this (lowering of rank) accomplish?

A black belt once earned, is yours.


That's what I'm getting at ... the black belt you get by shooting classifiers isn't the same as the black belt you earn by proving it in big matches against other shooters with the same classification. If USPSA will move you up because your match kung fu is stronger than your classifier kung fu, then they should do the same in the reverse situation.

[rhino465]

i fought long and hard to make A class. since then i've gotten older and slower and would probably be a good C class shooter these days. i'd get pissed if they moved me down.


Steve, you may not be at 100% of your game, but there is no way you're down in C-class and you know it. You may not be the top A in this year's Indiana Section Match, but you certainly won't be the bottom A either, nor anywhere near the bottom B.

Now, if you really, really were shooting big matches and finishing among the lower C and D shooters, then you'd be an example of what I'm talking about IF IT HAD ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY. What I'm talking about is someone who shoots to the absolute best of their ability (which you can determine over a few big matches in my opinion), but it does not correspond to their classifier scores that they can shoot at the same point in time.

[marvin]

thanks joey you always make me feel good. by the way where were you sunday?

[Flexmoney]

Outliers and Deviants !

Put them in the Iron Maiden !!!


:stooges:

[blownhemi]

It's interesting to see that you have the same issues there that we have in Australia.

I've been shooting IPSC (I shoot Production) for about 20 months now and I've just made A grade but for the last 12 months I've been outshooting guys in the sport who have been there forever that were much higher grades. I guess they earned it once upon a time and they're happy to have those grades but when it comes to competition they simply don't win anything.

While I don't mind winning trophies it's really the feeling of accomplishment that gives me a thrill with shooting. Even when I was just winning C and B grade I got a thrill out of the competition and if I won (got a fair haul over the last 20 months) then I'd go home happy.

It can't be much fun though to have someone just come in and breeze through past you though. I guess it'll happen to me one day. Strangely though I'm not exactly the picture of health and fitness so I expected these guys to outshoot me for a long time but it hasn't happened.

Going to A grade is going to make things tougher I guess because the competition is so much tougher but I reckon I'll do alright until I hit Master - then when the competition gets really tough over here.

[WellArmedSheep]

Rhino,

I am sorry, I now understand what you are thinking.

But what does this (lowering of rank) accomplish?

A black belt once earned, is yours.

Curious.

Patrick

I think this school of thought is what keeps both IDPA and USPSA from automatically moving shooters down when performance in matches drops below the standard for their classification. If someone is proud of the classification they worked hard to earn- even though he can't hang with the same level nowadays- he can keep his classification.

On the other hand, if someone can't hang and would like to be moved down to be competitive, there's a way to do it in both organizations.