From Enemies to Friends [Archive] - Glock Talk

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isuzu
04-26-2008, 14:46
This is an amazing story of chivalry, being gentlemen, and showing respect towards one's enemy who cannot fight back. This story was featured on CTV and I found a link to what happened to the two gentlemen:

http://www.waltsrchanger.com/html/b-17_f__ye_olde_pub_.html

G21forME
04-26-2008, 15:13
Thanks for the link that is an awesome story

isuzu
04-26-2008, 15:30
Thanks for the link that is an awesome story

You're Welcome. :)

horge
04-26-2008, 16:15
Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. :cool:

bmag
04-27-2008, 22:07
Amazing.
There will be generations of grateful families.

9MX
04-28-2008, 10:19
as the cliche goes...walang personalan..trabaho lang

blueeagle
04-29-2008, 16:16
chivalry in its purest form!

astig007
04-29-2008, 22:31
an officer and a gentleman :)

wtf jack
04-30-2008, 10:23
Some would call it chivalry, some would call it treason - especially now that he lives in the homeland of one of his former enemies (Canada).

Allegra
04-30-2008, 10:43
If you've read "On Killing" written by ....I forgot his name
They had a study that sa infantry nung WW2, only 20 % fires his wepon directly at the enemy
and only 2% of the soldiers did the actual killing

W/c was probably what happened here
Shooting that plane down was cold blooded murder

wtf jack
04-30-2008, 10:58
You are talking about a bomber crew that flies over the homeland of the German fighter pilot on a daily basis dropping bombs at both military and civilian targerts - killing men, women and children with equal efficiency. I wonder how many German citizens died because of his failure to destroy the American bomber. Do you think that bomber crew will drop less bombs or intentionally miss after they had a reprieve? I think not. Not that I have sympathies to the Axis powers, I am just looking at it from the perspective that failure to destroy the enemy today may cause the death of my children tomorrow.

Allegra
04-30-2008, 12:24
It's probably a little different when your up there in the plane staring down your sights at the injured men than sitting in front of the computer typing at the keyboard

But anyway , if he shot down that plane then there wouldnt be a great story

wtf jack
04-30-2008, 12:38
It's probably a little different when your up there in the plane staring down your sights at the injured men than sitting in front of the computer typing at the keyboard

But anyway , if he shot down that plane then there wouldnt be a great story

20-year veteran here. I have strong feelings against the enemies of the country that has always taken care of me and my family.

I wonder if that story would be palatable to you if you found out that a Filipino fighter pilot had let a Japanese bomber limp back to Japan after bombing Manila. And then the said Filipino pilot migrated to Japan after the war. I call it treason, what do you call it?

Allegra
04-30-2008, 18:04
20-year veteran here. I have strong feelings against the enemies of the country that has always taken care of me and my family.

I wonder if that story would be palatable to you if you found out that a Filipino fighter pilot had let a Japanese bomber limp back to Japan after bombing Manila. And then the said Filipino pilot migrated to Japan after the war. I call it treason, what do you call it?

I kinda figured in the aircarft carrier thread you were in the military :)

Yes , it looks like treason if he immediately migrated after the war
for all we know , he might have been thown in the brig for insubordination

As for me , since I havent even seen a combat zone I admire men who can pull the trigger face to face
But there were a lot of incidents like this during WW2
Infantry men unable to fire their weapon even when being fired upon

blueeagle
04-30-2008, 23:28
i don't think it was an act of treason. i've heard of veterans and young recruits talk of "having all feelings of hostility, violence and the desire to destroy the enemy vanish after so many firefights , engagements and battles." under the uniform, they are still human beings capable of compassion and empathy. :wavey:

Allegra
04-30-2008, 23:51
i don't think it was an act of treason. i've heard of veterans and young recruits talk of "having all feelings of hostility, violence and the desire to destroy the enemy vanish after so many firefights , engagements and battles." under the uniform, they are still human beings capable of compassion and empathy. :wavey:


We've been conditioned by movies na parang si Rambo mga combatants
Fascinating nga nung WW2 that only 20% fired sa enemy
Of course , w/ superior training I think the percantage rose dramatically during Vietnam.
Interestingly , tumaas din ang incidence ng post traumatic stress disorder
PTSD caused by killing and not the fear of being killed??

Kaya mag dry fire ng mag dryfire mga kaibigan :)
muscle memory and conditioning ang pangontra sa hesitation
basta ako , tatakbo nalang

wtf jack
05-01-2008, 05:27
[QUOTE=Allegra;10390192]We've been conditioned by movies na parang si Rambo mga combatants
Fascinating nga nung WW2 that only 20% fired sa enemy
Of course , w/ superior training I think the percantage rose dramatically during Vietnam.
Interestingly , tumaas din ang incidence ng post traumatic stress disorder
PTSD caused by killing and not the fear of being killed??

According to history.net -

http://www.historynet.com/men-against-fire-how-many-soldiers-actually-fired-their-weapons-at-the-enemy-during-the-vietnam-war.htm

- In a squad of 10 men, on average fewer than three ever fired their weapons in combat. Day in, day out — it did not matter how long they had been soldiers, how many months of combat they had seen, or even that the enemy was about to overrun their position. This was what the highly regarded Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall, better known as S.L.A. Marshall, or ‘Slam,’ concluded in a series of military journal articles and in his book, Men Against Fire, about America’s World War II soldiers...

- Some 20 years later, the validity of Marshall’s analysis was called into doubt. Respected researchers interviewed those who had accompanied him in World War II and also pored over his personal notes during the mid-1980s. Convincing evidence pointed to his having fabricated his World War II ratio-of-fire values, still so widely accepted at the time...

- In a unit with 500 riflemen, some 80 would not engage. Unlike the numbers from Marshall’s work, these estimates came directly from the men who had fought in the cities, jungles, firebases and rice paddies of Vietnam. Why did so many not fire?

- These men served as riflemen, machine-gunners, helicopter door gunners, vehicle crewmen or others who were to kill the adversary with the weapon they carried. The second basic group consisted of others who accompanied those of the first group. It included men who might sometimes fire on the adversary, but that was not their primary responsibility.

- Although the habitual coward was rare, 80 percent of those explaining why a fellow soldier did not fire cited fear as one of the causes.

- The assigned mission at times meant that actions other than killing the enemy had a higher priority. Units on intelligence collection operations frequently let a threat pass by unmolested. The members of these patrols sometimes called for artillery to engage the targets after they passed; in other instances, the Americans simply reported what they had seen.

- Personal beliefs did play a role, though a far less pervasive one than Marshall claimed was the case during World War II. Conscientious objectors accompanied infantry units into combat as medics, ammunition bearers for machine guns, or in other noncombatant roles. They often put themselves at greater risk by not carrying weapons.



xxxxxxx

Allegra
05-01-2008, 06:55
I'm to lazy to read my book again but it's this - http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116
Fascinating stuff
whether the data he present are true , I dont know
Maybe someone from westpoint can confirm
But the authors research goes back to the american civil war
when dead combatants had loaded weapons still unfired
It also explains the desensitizing and conditioning techniques during vietnam to increase the firing rate of soldiers
It's the same techniques w/c make our teenagers start shooting up schools

isuzu
05-01-2008, 19:45
There was also a story which happened in Europe where US and German troops did not shoot each other whenever they met at a creek and shared the water.

I've also spoken with some soldiers of the 78th IB when they were stationed in Negros Occidental, just after their assignment in Mindanao in the late '90s. When asked if they are willing to kill, their answer was "inasmuch as possible, we do not want to pull the trigger."

The battalion commander of the SAF who were assigned in Negros in the mid '90's also gained the respect of the residents in Southern Negros.

It was late afternoon when his sniper shot a rebel who was able to crawl away from them. When he knew of the incident, he immediately dispatched a team to track down the wounded rebel. They used NVGs and eventually located the rebel. He had the rebel sent to a private hospital in Bacolod to be treated for his wounds.

A close friend of mine was ambushed (was it late 80's or early 90's?). Two of his guards shielded him and were dead. The rebels got into his Land Cruiser and saw the situation. The rebels knew that he was still alive, but they just took the firearms inside the vehicle and left. He told me that he could have been easily killed as well because he was already wounded.

Allegra
05-01-2008, 21:45
OTOH , there's this 2% amongst us na psychopaths
Yung very capable ng violence w/out provocation
Madami naman ganyan , aggressive ang nature pero the difference is ang psycopath walang remorse sa ginawa niya

I've had a conversation w/ a local poltical errr...warlord na nagpapaturo
He said hindi siya gumagamit ng taong walang kunsyensya
At the time , I couldnt believe may hitman palang may conscience :)

wtf jack
05-02-2008, 05:54
Stories of enemies not deliberately not shooting to harm each other abounds:

http://www.heretical.com/games/trenches.html

Take note that these occurs mostly between combatants of the same race. Combatants of differing religions, races, beliefs would probably not share the same empathy with the enemy. I seriously doubt it if a Filipino guerilla would take a second to patch up a wounded Japanese soldier.

Air power and video games had diminished the chances of emphathy developing between the US and opponents. Spot the enemy unit, call it in, watch it get vaporized - just like in the video games. And of course, the wave of the future - unmanned combat vehicles operated by the XBox and PS3 generation. Think Predators and UCAVs on a massive scale. Unremorseful. Unbeatable.

blueeagle
05-02-2008, 06:22
during WW2 my late father was in 4th grade and he used to tell us that the japanese who were assigned to our place were kind, educated and very correct with their dealings with the civilians. every afternoon, he and other small boys were made to wrestle by the invaders and the winners were given bars of soap and /or bananas. or, they were asked by the japanese to rub their backs during bathtime and they were always given the usual goodies. not a single act of violence and /or atrocity was comitted against the civilian populace in our place. the explanation given by the old folks was that those jap soldiers were real japanese and not korean conscripts. 'yun daw and mga salbahe! :wavey:

blueeagle
05-02-2008, 06:31
during WW2 my late father was in 4th grade and he used to tell us that the japanese who were assigned to our place were kind, educated and very correct with their dealings with the civilians. every afternoon, he and other small boys were made to wrestle by the invaders and the winners were given bars of soap and /or bananas. or, they were asked by the japanese to rub their backs during bathtime and they were always given the usual goodies. not a single act of violence and /or atrocity was comitted against the civilian populace in our place. the explanation given by the old folks was that those jap soldiers were real japanese and not korean conscripts. 'yun daw and mga salbahe! :wavey:

Allegra
05-02-2008, 06:36
May explanation yan why people of different races/social class/religion etc may lack empathy towards each other
Kaso nakalimutan ko na
Anyway,magandang example jan yung genocide sa Rwanda

OTOH , bakit mga salvage victim naka blindfold at nakatali?
Pati hitman may awa? may conscience? :)