Are more than 2 mag pouches legal in IDPA?

[bimmerboy]

Went to local match the other day. It was my first IDPA match and the RO said that only 2 mag pouches were allowed on your person in IDPA. Is this correct? That's 11 in the gun and 20 on your belt. I never once felt the need to reach for the last mag on my belt, but this was local.

[Gary G23]

That is correct.

[Jim Watson]

That's the rule.

I have seen people wear a third carrier way 'round in their back for the Barney magazine, but it would not be legit to reload the gun with it.

[bimmerboy]

In USPSA stages, it's mandatory to have at least 3 mags on you!

[gsbell]

That's the rule.

I have seen people wear a third carrier way 'round in their back for the Barney magazine, but it would not be legit to reload the gun with it.
And I've seen at least one hard ass declare that illegal. But yet let other things slide at a major match.

If you want to carry your barney in a carrier you are more than welcome to at any stage that I'm the SO on.

[domzilla9]

Went to local match the other day. It was my first IDPA match and the RO said that only 2 mag pouches were allowed on your person in IDPA. Is this correct?

That is correct. While is it is never *mandatory* to have three mags on your belt in a USPSA match, it is definitely advisable, as the round count can really get up there and you'll often want to dump only partially expended mags while reloading on the move.

You'll probably want to take a look at the IDPA rule book available on http://www.idpa.com IDPA stages (COFs) are limited to 18 required rounds and probably average closer to 12. A low minimal round count and the fact that dumping partially filled mags incurs penalties means that three mags is usually more than enough.

As for the rule and hard-assness: it's a pretty simple rule really and not a tough one to comply with.

[Bogey]

Went to local match the other day. It was my first IDPA match and the RO said that only 2 mag pouches were allowed on your person in IDPA. Is this correct? That's 11 in the gun and 20 on your belt. I never once felt the need to reach for the last mag on my belt, but this was local.


Actually, you may, if you desire, use 3 mag holders. Just don't "use" the third one for reloading. Use it only for a barney mag.

The rule states that you may not "USE" any more than two pouches during a course of fire, and you may only have 2 spare mags on your belt.

See page 39 of the rule book.

[Bogey]

And I've seen at least one hard ass declare that illegal. But yet let other things slide at a major match.

If you want to carry your barney in a carrier you are more than welcome to at any stage that I'm the SO on.


Ditto.

[windplex]

That's the rule.

I have seen people wear a third carrier way 'round in their back for the Barney magazine, but it would not be legit to reload the gun with it.

I always have two doubles. Have never been told not to use the second set. Wonder why, many persnickity ROs -- surprozed (believe you).

[domzilla9]

Actually, you may, if you desire, use 3 mag holders. Just don't "use" the third one for reloading. Use it only for a barney mag.

The rule states that you may not "USE" any more than two pouches during a course of fire, and you may only have 2 spare mags on your belt.

See page 39 of the rule book.

To paraphrase my favorite USPSA Range Nazi, who admits to knowing nothing about IDPA, "..gear, procedure or method that isn't specifically prohibited in the rule book is not necessarily legal."

Carrying two mags on your belt in two double mag carriers, leaving two of the four available "pouches" empty, certainly doesn't fit within IDPA's stated purpose. I mean, maybe I am crazy, but I wouldn't carry around two empty mag pouches on my belt on the street anymore than I would use an Orvis mesh trapshooting vest as a concealing garment.

[CoffeeOps]

To paraphrase my favorite USPSA Range Nazi, who admits to knowing nothing about IDPA, "..gear, procedure or method that isn't specifically prohibited in the rule book is not necessarily legal."


This isn't obvious to people who don't deal with these sorts of problems on a regular basis, but here it is:

You either:
1) Allow everything by default, and deny only by exception.
2) Deny everything by defualt, and allow only by exception.

Laws work by number 1. Everything is legal until it is made illegal.

Either the Nazi or IDPA is abysmally wrong. The brief time I looked at the IDPA rule book, everything followed number 1. They used to have a holster list that followed number 2, but dropped it because it was impractical (..duh). It was replaced with a general rule in the form of number 1.

[domzilla9]

In it's online format, the 2005 IDPA Rule Book is 82 pages long and none of it is fine print. I wouldn't seek to compare this rule book to "law" or the expect it to work "the way laws work".

From page 8 of the rule book:


C 1. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or
compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the
use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques. This is
the Failure To Do Right rule.
C 2. Competitors will refrain from unsportsmanlike conduct,
unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the
opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of
IDPA. Repeated offenses reported


Are "extra" empty mag pouches on the belt a competitive advantage? Maybe, if you can stick a mag in there and draw a mag from another to do a RWR without the SO catching you. As an MD, that's one thing I would rather my SOs and score keepers not have to worry about observing. They have enough to do as it is. I also don't want to have to be put in the position of having to explain to other miffed shooters why you're wearing three or four mag holders on their belt while they only brought two to the match because "thems the rules!"

Again, this is not a difficult rule to follow. If an SO asks you to take off the the extra mag holders or move them to the middle of your back for your toting your barney mag and you don't comply, this newbie MD is going to ask you to come back next weekend for the USPSA match.

There is at least one interested thread related to this topic on IDPA Forum (I will spend more time searching later):
http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/1640/t/Barney-mag-pouch.html?page=1
Note the OCT 2006 reply from Robert Ray at IDPA Headquarter that supports barney mag holders (if one is legal, why not six?) and an anecdote about Bill Wilson's feelings on the matter.

[Bren]

Went to local match the other day. It was my first IDPA match and the RO said that only 2 mag pouches were allowed on your person in IDPA. Is this correct? That's 11 in the gun and 20 on your belt. I never once felt the need to reach for the last mag on my belt, but this was local.

Best I recall, IDPA stages are limited to a maximum of 18 required rounds, so you should only need the last magazine when there are reloads required by the course description.

However, you can have all the mag pouches you want, as long as only 2 of them have magazines.;) I just went through the rule book and couldn't find the rule, referred to above, about only having 2 mag cariers - just the one about "no more than 2 spare magazines."

[AggieMM]

However, you can have all the mag pouches you want, as long as only 2 of them have magazines.;) I just went through the rule book and couldn't find the rule, referred to above, about only having 2 mag cariers - just the one about "no more than 2 spare magazines."

+1

Darn, you beat me to it, I was gonna say that. Yes, the rule book only limits the number of magazines on the belt, not the "pouches/holders". I have three mag holders on my belt, but I only use the "third" one for holding my "load-it-up/first" magazine. I don't like walking around with the first mag in the pocket, so until it is my turn, I have all three on the belt. HOWEVER, when the timer goes "BEEP", I only have two magazines on my belt per the rules.

Ryan

[G21forME]

Best I recall, IDPA stages are limited to a maximum of 18 required rounds, so you should only need the last magazine when there are reloads required by the course description.

"


All the classifier stages are 30 rounds each, maybe 18 is a string limit? I don't have my book handy and I'm way too lazy to browse the pdf.

[Bogey]

All the classifier stages are 30 rounds each, maybe 18 is a string limit? I don't have my book handy and I'm way too lazy to browse the pdf.


They are shot in strings of no more than 12 rounds per string.
There are only a few reloads called for on the clock. (two tac loads, and 2 SLRs IIRC)

Match stages are limited to 18 rounds max.

[G21forME]

They are shot in strings of no more than 12 rounds per string.
There are only a few reloads called for on the clock. (two tac loads, and 2 SLRs IIRC)

Match stages are limited to 18 rounds max.

Match strings, not stages are limited to 18 rounds

http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

[speeddeacon]

Many strings are not "limited" and you may fire as many extra shots as you want. However, since the max number of hits required on an individual string are 18 and you have 3 mags plus one in the chamber, that would be 25 rds for CDP (8rds x 3 mags +1 in the chamber) and 31 rds for SSP and ESP (10rds x 3 mags + 1 in the chamber). That's a lot of extra rounds for SSP and ESP, but theoretically not so much for CDP. I don't see where I would ever need more than two spare mags.

I carry my extra mags in my pocket for classifier, otherwise just top off back at my range bag.

[speeddeacon]

Well I just thought of one instance where it could be useful to have extra mags on your belt and that would be if you had to shuck a mag for a malfunction. I suppose if you did a RWR you could reinsert that mag as long as the mag itself wasn't causing the malfunction.

[Bogey]

Match strings, not stages are limited to 18 rounds

http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf


Stages are limited to a maximum of 18 required rounds. (scored hits)

You can break the stages up in strings.

The classifier has three stages, and within those stages are strings.

[domzilla9]

Stages are limited to a maximum of 18 required rounds. (scored hits).

I can't find where it says that in the rule book.

CoF 19 reads "No string of fire may exceed a maximum requirement of eighteen (18) rounds."

It doesn't say anything about a stage limit. I also can't find anything limiting the number of strings per stage.

So, using the same method of rules intepretation that is applied in posts above to allow for three or more mag holders on the belt, can we have stages with three strings of 18 rounds each? Heck, next you know we'll be giving the IPSC guys a run for their money on round count.

Of course I have yet to see a COF published online that calls for multiple strings with a total round count exceeding 18. I suppose that common sense tells most people that if the divisions with the highest ammo density (SSP/ESP) are going to have a maximum of 31 rounds available to them on their belt and in their gun at the first start signal that it doesn't make much sense to design stages with two 18 round strings.

[Bogey]

I can't find where it says that in the rule book.

CoF 19 reads "No string of fire may exceed a maximum requirement of eighteen (18) rounds."

It doesn't say anything about a stage limit. I also can't find anything limiting the number of strings per stage.

So, using the same method of rules intepretation that is applied in posts above to allow for three or more mag holders on the belt, can we have stages with three strings of 18 rounds each? Heck, next you know we'll be giving the IPSC guys a run for their money on round count.

Of course I have yet to see a COF published online that calls for multiple strings with a total round count exceeding 18. I suppose that common sense tells most people that if the divisions with the highest ammo density (SSP/ESP) are going to have a maximum of 31 rounds available to them on their belt and in their gun at the first start signal that it doesn't make much sense to design stages with two 18 round strings.


You are correct on CoF rule 19. It does say "string of fire".

In the infinite wisdom of IDPA rulebook writers, it would give one the idea that a "Stage" COULD consist of perhaps 3, even four, 18 round strings. (never gives a set limit) Then we'd be getting into more USPSA like shooting, which we all know would make BW have a conniption fit.:supergrin:

No Stage, or "CoF", will ever have more than 18 rounds as a maximum round count. In Appendix 5, Course Design Rationale, it discusses having several "strings" within a "scenario stage". (page 48, para 2) I'll see if I can find where it specifically states no more than 18 rounds, but may have trouble given the way the book is written.

Also, for further description, look at the terms they use for the classifier on page 67 and following. It refers to "strings" within the "stage". I know this refers to "Limited Vickers" scoring, but the principle carries through CoF rules as well as Design Rationale.

[domzilla9]

No Stage, or "CoF", will ever have more than 18 rounds as a maximum round count. In Appendix 5, Course Design Rationale, it discusses having several "strings" within a "scenario stage". (page 48, para 2) I'll see if I can find where it specifically states no more than 18 rounds, but may have trouble given the way the book is written.

I've been searching the RB for something that specifically limits the rounds in a stage but I can't find it. More power to you if you can. My highlighter is at the ready.

However, I totally agree that you probably won't find a COF anywhere that requires more than 18 rounds, regardless of how many strings it has. And not only do I think that's a good thing, but I also think that most reasonable people would agree that the Founding Fathers....er...I mean....Bill....er.... IDPA intends that stages are limited to 18 required rounds max. I just don't know why it isn't also obvious that we're supposed to only have two mag pouches on our belts!

Anything before two months ago was before my time. However, if I've read my IDPA lore correctly, didn't shooters commonly carry 3+ *mags*, even 4 mags, on their belts at the start signal before 2002?

[ecmills]

At the Arkansas State match two weeks back in Berryville, the standard stage was brutal.

48 rounds, 4 or 5 strings. It was about a third of the matches round count.

...And I was 50 points down. Oops.

[domzilla9]

I would be interested in knowing more about that Standards stage. I should have clarified that I was referring to "scenario" stages, not classifiers or standards.

[Bogey]

I've been searching the RB for something that specifically limits the rounds in a stage but I can't find it. More power to you if you can. My highlighter is at the ready.

However, I totally agree that you probably won't find a COF anywhere that requires more than 18 rounds, regardless of how many strings it has. And not only do I think that's a good thing, but I also think that most reasonable people would agree that the Founding Fathers....er...I mean....Bill....er.... IDPA intends that stages are limited to 18 required rounds max. I just don't know why it isn't also obvious that we're supposed to only have two mag pouches on our belts!

Anything before two months ago was before my time. However, if I've read my IDPA lore correctly, didn't shooters commonly carry 3+ *mags*, even 4 mags, on their belts at the start signal before 2002?

My history starts roughly May 2005, so it was right after the new book came out that I actually got involved.

I really don't care how many mag pouches anyone has on their belt. I will only allow them two reloads of division capacity mags to be used during a CoF, and they have to be located per the rule book.

[Bogey]

At the Arkansas State match two weeks back in Berryville, the standard stage was brutal.

48 rounds, 4 or 5 strings. It was about a third of the matches round count.

...And I was 50 points down. Oops.

I would be interested in knowing their justification of that kind of round count.