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cosmophonic12
05-26-2008, 16:05
What do you guys carry in your G20/29 for self defense? I am thinking about speer gold dot 155gr. As of today, I am carrying Hornady 180gr JHP/XTP in my G29. I am thinking that my current self defense carry is over kill. What do you think? Thanks!

Javelin
05-26-2008, 16:07
CorBon?

mmcbeat
05-26-2008, 16:14
Winchester Silvertip is a good round for the 29.

Norman
05-26-2008, 16:21
DoubleTap ammo... 165gr Speer Gold Dot.

Double Tap is great stuff.

cosmophonic12
05-26-2008, 16:25
is 180gr too much power for self defense round? i hate to use this word but over penetration????

fredj338
05-26-2008, 21:47
is 180gr too much power for self defense round? i hate to use this word but over penetration????

With the 180grXTP, maybe. It is a really good penetrating round. The 175grWWSTHP is good, the SpeerGD would probably be my choice in any wt. or the DT 165gr.

texmex
05-26-2008, 22:58
The Winchester Silver tip is a very good choice in 10MM. Silver tips are a little lacking in penetration in 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9MM, but they work great in 10MM, 41 Magnum and 44 Magnum. They have the right combination of bullet weight and velocity to get the job done.

Sammael
05-27-2008, 14:20
+1 on the Silvertips.

My G29 loves em. :)

Rugby
05-27-2008, 14:49
I say stick with what you got.

Preußen
05-27-2008, 15:05
Hornady 180gr XTPs are just fine - 155gr XTPs are good too

+3 on Winchester Silvertips

Winchester 175gr Silvertips are still my favorite full-power 10mm load [save the Double Tap hyperbole for someone who cares..:upeyes:]

390ish
05-27-2008, 16:59
mine shoots best with the sierra 190 grainers, so that is what i carry.

glock20c10mm
05-27-2008, 17:54
Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot @ 1400fps from a G29. They expand to .88" in clothed gel, mud, hard packed dirt, and water. When fired through a 6" barrel they fragment bigtime. From a standard G29 barrel, you're right at the max with zero fragmentation most of the time(once in a while one petal will tear loose). The only time I carry a heavier bullet is when I head into the Black Bear country a few miles away in the mountains.

The Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot load makes the Winchester 175gr Sivertips appear anemic in every way except penetration(I figure there's no need to penetrate the thickness of a human multiple times).

Check them out here - http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25
50rnds in a box for $29.95! That's 60cents a round. Compare that to Hornady at 85cents/round, and Federal HydraShoks for $1.18/round!!! Or how about those Winchester Silvertips for 85cents/round.:shocked:

Bottom line, you get the BEST for LESS! What else is there to say.

Good Shooting cosmophonic12
Craig:thumbsup:

Sammael
05-27-2008, 17:59
I get my Silvertips cheaper than that. :P

But yes, the DT looks excellent as well. I'm sure either load will do just fine. :)

Northalius
05-27-2008, 18:11
Check this:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

Skip the XTP and Equalizer; those're for hunting medium game in the woods. Check the Gold Dot and Golden Saber rounds from DoubleTap. That's good stuff right there! And guess what? Those results are from a Glock 20! The DoubleTap 10mm actually has a little bit superior performance with the Glock 29, since as Glock20c10mm said, the velocity from the G20 makes the rounds peel back a bit; but STILL did nicely in gel! Imagine they showed the G29 results!? That'd be nice. :supergrin:

Here's the 10mm selection to pick from DoubleTap website: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25&osCsid=8dbe528c19cc480dbb5ea999e06ddc5d

cosmophonic12
05-27-2008, 18:21
Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot @ 1400fps from a G29. They expand to .88" in clothed gel, mud, hard packed dirt, and water. When fired through a 6" barrel they fragment bigtime. From a standard G29 barrel, you're right at the max with zero fragmentation most of the time(once in a while one petal will tear loose). The only time I carry a heavier bullet is when I head into the Black Bear country a few miles away in the mountains.

The Double Tap 155gr Gold Dot load makes the Winchester 175gr Sivertips appear anemic in every way except penetration(I figure there's no need to penetrate the thickness of a human multiple times).

Check them out here - http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25
50rnds in a box for $29.95! That's 60cents a round. Compare that to Hornady at 85cents/round, and Federal HydraShoks for $1.18/round!!! Or how about those Winchester Silvertips for 85cents/round.:shocked:

Bottom line, you get the BEST for LESS! What else is there to say.

Good Shooting cosmophonic12
Craig:thumbsup:

thanks craig!

glock20c10mm
05-27-2008, 21:39
I get my Silvertips cheaper than that. :P

But yes, the DT looks excellent as well. I'm sure either load will do just fine. :)

Yea, prices will vary. But you'll still never find them as cheap as DTs premo ammo.:rock:

glock20c10mm
05-27-2008, 21:42
Check this:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

Skip the XTP and Equalizer; those're for hunting medium game in the woods. Check the Gold Dot and Golden Saber rounds from DoubleTap. That's good stuff right there! And guess what? Those results are from a Glock 20! The DoubleTap 10mm actually has a little bit superior performance with the Glock 29, since as Glock20c10mm said, the velocity from the G20 makes the rounds peel back a bit; but STILL did nicely in gel! Imagine they showed the G29 results!? That'd be nice. :supergrin:

Here's the 10mm selection to pick from DoubleTap website: http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25&osCsid=8dbe528c19cc480dbb5ea999e06ddc5d

Hey Northalius:wavey:, it's been a while, good to "see" you! Glad you're using the numbers I've posted and put them to good use. Rock On!:rock:

glock20c10mm
05-27-2008, 21:43
thanks craig!
Anytime! If you've got more questions, related or not, throw them out. I'ld be happy to answer anything you're still questioning.

Good Shooting,
Craig:wavey:

Preußen
05-27-2008, 22:49
Double Tap ammo fans are attracted to 10mm threads like a moth to light.. You'll die in the street without it!
Teh best ammo evah! :rofl:

bfg1971
05-27-2008, 23:26
DoubleTap ammo... 165gr Speer Gold Dot.

Double Tap is great stuff.

+1

Carry the same round in both 20 and 29.

Rekced
05-28-2008, 00:06
What do you guys carry in your G20/29 for self defense? I am thinking about speer gold dot 155gr. As of today, I am carrying Hornady 180gr JHP/XTP in my G29. I am thinking that my current self defense carry is over kill. What do you think? Thanks!


I wouldn't give it much thought my friend. I own a Glock 29 and it's been sitting for over a year with the same ammo that you're carrying. I could drive a 1/4 mile and pay $15 for some Silvertips but it's not worth the time.


Doubletap bla bla bla. Stick with what you have.

Rekced
05-28-2008, 00:24
Double Tap ammo fans are attracted to 10mm threads like a moth to light.. You'll die in the street without it!
Teh best ammo evah! :rofl:


Yeah dude. That extra 100 ft lbs of energy like life or death man!


When it comes to ammo manufactures who are you gonna trust? Multimillion dollar companies who sell ammo to the people in LE who demand the absolute highest quality in the world... Or some dude from wherever who found that blending powders can make bullets go faster while keeping the the pressure under control. Double Tap buys their bullets from the same major companies, but just makes them go faster. My thought is if the manufacturer of the bullet designed it to go a certain speed, don't get think you're helping anything when you make it go as fast as it can. I have never seen pictures of doubletap ballistic tests and I doubt any will ever be released. All you see is people posting the numbers originally posted by the maker of the ammo himself. That isn't worth a damn to me.

Jdog
05-28-2008, 01:18
I love doubletap ammo but I'm concerned over reports indicating the doubletap 165 & 180gr gold dot HP loads are overexpanding before they hit the meat. Whereas the petals fold back against the bullet instead of hold their mushroom shape. This makes it act like a FMJ.
The fragnasty DT 135 loads seem like they'd be fine for SD. (or perhaps the DT equalizer round!!)
anyone else hear this?
http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=3741

So I recommend DT HP's using barnes XTP bullets or non-DT gold-dots in .40 s&w velocity.

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 02:16
Yeah dude. That extra 100 ft lbs of energy like life or death man!


When it comes to ammo manufactures who are you gonna trust? Multimillion dollar companies who sell ammo to the people in LE who demand the absolute highest quality in the world... Or some dude from wherever who found that blending powders can make bullets go faster while keeping the the pressure under control. Double Tap buys their bullets from the same major companies, but just makes them go faster. My thought is if the manufacturer of the bullet designed it to go a certain speed, don't get think you're helping anything when you make it go as fast as it can. I have never seen pictures of doubletap ballistic tests and I doubt any will ever be released. All you see is people posting the numbers originally posted by the maker of the ammo himself. That isn't worth a damn to me.

Well, don't know what you're all up tight about, but I can vouch for DTs 10mm 155gr Gold Dot load expanding to .88" in various media types, wet and dry. Guess that throws your theory out the window.

For someone who claims there not going to believe anything till they see the proof, you're very hipocritical. From the standpoint you don't have proof that they don't expand as advertised.

There are many items in general, outside and inside the world of ballistics that work quite well for uses they were never intended by the inventor. So what?:dunno:

Doesn't sound like, from what you say anyway, that you're much of a 10mm fan to begin with. So why are you here? I'm sure there's a 9mm thread out there somewhere you can chime in on. Might be more your speed.

Have a nice day!:wavey:

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 02:27
I love doubletap ammo but I'm concerned over reports indicating the doubletap 165 & 180gr gold dot HP loads are overexpanding before they hit the meat. Whereas the petals fold back against the bullet instead of hold their mushroom shape. This makes it act like a FMJ.

There is some truth to that.:shocked: Out of my G29, the above concern is not the case.:shakehead: Out of a G20 it's getting close to that point. Out of a 6" barrel, it's true, not to mention the fragmentation.:wow: What?, some of you don't think a Gold Dot can fragment? You really have to push them, but once beyond a certain threshold, they do! Pretty wild actually! Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of any fragmenting Gold Dot bullet!:scared:

Jason607
05-28-2008, 02:47
The beauty of the 10mm is that just about any bullet will get the job done. As long as it's a true 10mm loading, not one of these what I call "long case .40S&W" loadings. Even then, it will usually get the job done.

Glolt20-91
05-28-2008, 02:53
What Mike NcNett has done for 10mm owners is produce a quality product for consumers who don't handload and puts his ammo into the handloaded bracket.

The high velocity 180grs Gold Dots/Golden Sabers (upper 1300s) will bust up a shoulder and continue through the vitals and leave a big hole upon exiting; that's excellent performance for defending oneself and loved ones. :thumbsup:

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
05-28-2008, 03:34
I love doubletap ammo but I'm concerned over reports indicating the doubletap 165 & 180gr gold dot HP loads are overexpanding before they hit the meat. Whereas the petals fold back against the bullet instead of hold their mushroom shape. This makes it act like a FMJ.
The fragnasty DT 135 loads seem like they'd be fine for SD. (or perhaps the DT equalizer round!!)
anyone else hear this?
http://www.10mmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=3741

So I recommend DT HP's using barnes XTP bullets or non-DT gold-dots in .40 s&w velocity.

The 165gr Gold Dot was designed for the .40 and has a deeper hollow point cavity as compared to the 155gr Gold Dot.

My preference in 180grs is my own loading of the Golden Saber at 1380fps/6"/G20. In terminal ballistics you want a bullet whose shape becomes blunt just prior to reaching vital organs. A flat shaped bullet that leaves a large exit wound sucks out a lot of blood/interior "stuff" and has the potential to rapidly reduce blood pressure resulting in quicker incapacitation times. In contrast, a mushroom shaped bullet will tend to have a narrower permanent wound cavity with less vacuum behind it given the same velocity.

Bullet designs/sectional densities that open too quickly will be on the down side of a horizontal, parachute shaped permanent wound channel resulting in less comminution to vital organs.

When companies like Winchester spend $1 million for R&D on a particular bullet design; then the shooter should understand that terminal ballistics is much more complicated than reading fps/fpe/expansion/penetration numbers.

Picking self-defense ammo for a revolver is much simpler.

A bullet that expands just prior to reaching vital organs will cause more comminution to those organs and is one of the design goals for self defense bullets.

Bob :cowboy:

Preußen
05-28-2008, 10:20
Yeah dude. That extra 100 ft lbs of energy like life or death man!


When it comes to ammo manufactures who are you gonna trust? Multimillion dollar companies who sell ammo to the people in LE who demand the absolute highest quality in the world... Or some dude from wherever who found that blending powders can make bullets go faster while keeping the the pressure under control. Double Tap buys their bullets from the same major companies, but just makes them go faster. My thought is if the manufacturer of the bullet designed it to go a certain speed, don't get think you're helping anything when you make it go as fast as it can. I have never seen pictures of doubletap ballistic tests and I doubt any will ever be released. All you see is people posting the numbers originally posted by the maker of the ammo himself. That isn't worth a damn to me.
Agreed....
Golden Saber bullets aren't meant to be driven to warp-velocity speeds. The 180gr GS has a velocity window of 700 ~1050 fps. The 165gr Golden Saber works at 800 ~1250 fps. After that they shed their jackets [core separation], and don't work as designed.
But i guess all you guys using this stuff know better than Remington engineers who designed and R&D'd Golden Saber ammo. Black Talon/Ranger T is another bullet design engineered to expand and function within a certain velocity window.

Gold Dots will hold together better when driven to hypervelocity. They're also designed to operate within a certain velocity window, but whatever..

sounds to me like the OP had his mind already made up to use DT ammo and was seeking the support of the DT cheerleaders so prevalent here
:wavey:

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 11:45
Sounds to me like the OP had his mind already made up to use DT ammo.
That's a smart OP!:supergrin:

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 11:52
When companies like Winchester spend $1 million for R&D on a particular bullet design; then the shooter should understand that terminal ballistics is much more complicated than reading fps/fpe/expansion/penetration numbers.

Bob :cowboy:

How do you know they spent a million dollars(sounds like a bit too round of a figure to me), and why would you think their main mission was terminal in nature? Seems to me they would be spending much more time on stuff like which bonding process works best for their manufacturing methods, along with getting the bullet to react how they want it to when faced with various barriers and so forth.

I don't know Bob, I would lean towards the idea that you way oversimplified in your above statement. There was more than likely money spent on packaging.....

Northalius
05-28-2008, 15:45
Agreed....
Golden Saber bullets aren't meant to be driven to warp-velocity speeds. The 180gr GS has a velocity window of 700 ~1050 fps. The 165gr Golden Saber works at 800 ~1250 fps. After that they shed their jackets [core separation], and don't work as designed.
But i guess all you guys using this stuff know better than Remington engineers who designed and R&D'd Golden Saber ammo. Black Talon/Ranger T is another bullet design engineered to expand and function within a certain velocity window.

Gold Dots will hold together better when driven to hypervelocity. They're also designed to operate within a certain velocity window, but whatever..

sounds to me like the OP had his mind already made up to use DT ammo and was seeking the support of the DT cheerleaders so prevalent here
:wavey:

They might not have been meant for "hyper velocity" speeds... but they do very well at those speeds, nonetheless. Even if they frag a little from a G20, they still expand nicely. The proof is in the pudding... er... gel. :supergrin: Go to page one and check the 10mm gel results from DoubleTap.

Yes, the 135 gr. GD JHP from DoubleTap fragged nasty in gel, but at least it still went 11" and expanded to .70". I'd still not use it, admittedly. I'm aiming for the 180 gr. rounds, personally. ;)

You're acting (seems you have some kind of bias or agenda against DT...) like ALL of the GS or other rounds used by DoubleTap supposedly frag up upon impact and travel but 5" to 6" in gel. Seriously, if I read your post and didn't see DT gel results, I'd almost be thinking this must be the case.

You need to give credit where credit is due; drop your anti-DT biased agenda (or whatever you have, but it seems pretty obvious to me you have something like that) and just accept the truth.

Oh yeah, and for those saying to trust a multi-million dollar ammo company, and implying DT is supposedly crap or untrustworthy because he's not a million dollar company owner, is not exactly right, either. If DT were not good, they'd have fallen within a year or two... but it seems (yes, there're still growing pains, I know) that they're still going strong from the looks of it.

Don't bother bringing up some posts showing where some DT rounds failed, because I've seen plenty of posts talking about the big-name brands failing, as well. No company is perfect, because men are not perfect, therefore their creation isn't perfect. Fact of life.

Keep whining, or simply go about your own business; either way, it matters none to the company in question.

:wavey:

Northalius
05-28-2008, 15:59
Hey Northalius:wavey:, it's been a while, good to "see" you! Glad you're using the numbers I've posted and put them to good use. Rock On!:rock:

:wavey: I'm savin' up for my G29! I'm just about there! Darn other bills though, since they keep holding me back from using that money on the Glock. :rofl: Almost there... !

Can't wait!

I see we have some anti-DT whiners here, eh?

They must be getting paid for it! :supergrin:

Preußen
05-28-2008, 16:08
[snip]
You're acting (seems you have some kind of bias or agenda against DT...) like ALL of the GS or other rounds used by DoubleTap supposedly frag up upon impact and travel but 5" to 6" in gel. Seriously, if I read your post and didn't see DT gel results, I'd almost be thinking this must be the case.

You need to give credit where credit is due; drop your anti-DT biased agenda (or whatever you have, but it seems pretty obvious to me you have something like that) and just accept the truth.

[snip]


Keep whining, or simply go about your own business; either way, it matters none to the company in question.

:wavey:
Not whining.
I don't like DT ammo. There, i said it.
I don't have to give credit, i don't have to get rid of my anti-DT bias, and i don't have to accept the truth as you see it.. Who are you to tell me what to do?


:cheerleader:
Gimme a D
Gimme a T
yay DT, yay DT
:cheerleader:

you're always the first one in a thread to whip out the spectacular DT ammo velocities and energy figures. Bully for you! Maybe you'll get a free box of ammo for being so fiercely loyal
:cheerleader:

bluegrassboy
05-28-2008, 17:20
I carry DT Gold Dot 180 gr in my G29.....but at the range I shoot DT Gold Dot 180 gr......but in my Truck...I have DT Gold Dot 180 gr. in my G20.....I believe you should practice with what you trust your life with.....

azatrox
05-28-2008, 17:35
Not whining.
I don't like DT ammo. There, i said it.



PreuBen, you made a comment in another thread concerning DT's 200gr Bear Tooth round also, calling it a "hyped" round. I'm just curious as to the root of your dislike of DT ammo. Have you had a bad experience with them? Have you ever even used their ammo?

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 19:52
Not whining.
I don't like DT ammo. There, i said it.
I don't have to give credit, i don't have to get rid of my anti-DT bias, and i don't have to accept the truth as you see it.. Who are you to tell me what to do?
Let me guess. You're one of those subsonic kind of guys?



Gimme a D
Gimme a T
yay DT, yay DT
:woohoo::dancingbanana:

you're always the first one in a thread to whip out the spectacular DT ammo velocities and energy figures. Bully for you!
Bull%$#&, sometimes I am. You can't be giving all the credit to one person. Geez!:faint:

Maybe you'll get a free box of ammo for being so fiercely loyal.
Maybe you're already getting free ammo from everone but DT?:shocked:

PS - :sorry: I had to erase all your smilies. I had to to fit mine in and still post.

glock20c10mm
05-28-2008, 20:01
PreuBen, you made a comment in another thread concerning DT's 200gr Bear Tooth round also, calling it a "hyped" round. I'm just curious as to the root of your dislike of DT ammo. Have you had a bad experience with them? Have you ever even used their ammo?
He thinks DT ammo is too powerful and will explode the guns they are fired in.:crazy:

Preußen
05-28-2008, 20:04
He thinks DT ammo is too powerful and will explode the guns they are fired in.:crazy:
Really? What am i thinking now?

yay DT!!
:cheerleader:

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 00:22
Really? What am i thinking now?

yay DT!!
:cheerleader:
You posted it recently. Did you change your mind in the last week or two?

Rekced
05-29-2008, 01:33
Well, don't know what you're all up tight about, but I can vouch for DTs 10mm 155gr Gold Dot load expanding to .88" in various media types, wet and dry. Guess that throws your theory out the window.

Let's see your pictures. Don't have 'em? I didn't think so.

Out the window my theory goes I guess. :faint:


For someone who claims there not going to believe anything till they see the proof, you're very hipocritical. From the standpoint you don't have proof that they don't expand as advertised.

Now I'm a hypocrite because I haven't bothered trying a prove that Doubletap ammo doesn't expand to its advertised claims. I never claimed Double Tap ammo doesn't perform as advertised. I merely made the point that there isn't any real evidence that backs up Double Tap's performance claims. I have a lot of faith in some areas of my life and ammunition performance is definitely not one of them.


Doesn't sound like, from what you say anyway, that you're much of a 10mm fan to begin with. So why are you here? I'm sure there's a 9mm thread out there somewhere you can chime in on. Might be more your speed.

Yeah, that's why I own a 10mm Glock...

Northalius
05-29-2008, 02:45
Heck, with that kind of skepticism, you should be saying:

"Oh, this [Any big-name brand ammo manufacturer here.] ammo has pictures of its expansion, but you know what? That could've been picked and chosen, since it was the only one that looked good!" Or "I wasn't there to see it happen, so no matter how many pictures or even videos (which can be doctored, especially by MILLION dollar ammo companies) I see them put out, I will not trust them 'til I do the tests myself!"

???

Which, in and of itself, is not really a bad thing, actually; but come on, let's be consistent here! No picking and choosing which company to ONLY be skeptical of! Gotta be that way with ALL of them! :supergrin:

LOL @ glock20c... no no no, I'M going to get that trophy for DT's #1 fanboy, sir!

Mike, where're my free boxes of ammo, man... come on! :supergrin:

It's funny, because so many people are using DT ammo now, yet I don't see 150+ posts on GT or anywhere else, where their ammo is exploding left and right, screwing up all day, every day, or anything else on a daily basis... as what one would assume... going by some of the negative, whiny posts seen here in this thread and elsewhere. It amazes me, the anti-DT hype that can be posted! Truly amazing! :faint:

PrepuBescents' post was not worth responding to, word for word. I laughed a bit though! :wavey:

Glolt20-91
05-29-2008, 03:09
Agreed....
Golden Saber bullets aren't meant to be driven to warp-velocity speeds. The 180gr GS has a velocity window of 700 ~1050 fps. The 165gr Golden Saber works at 800 ~1250 fps. After that they shed their jackets [core separation], and don't work as designed.
But i guess all you guys using this stuff know better than Remington engineers who designed and R&D'd Golden Saber ammo. Black Talon/Ranger T is another bullet design engineered to expand and function within a certain velocity window.

Gold Dots will hold together better when driven to hypervelocity. They're also designed to operate within a certain velocity window, but whatever..

sounds to me like the OP had his mind already made up to use DT ammo and was seeking the support of the DT cheerleaders so prevalent here
:wavey:

Maybe Remington makes some stout bullets . . . and your personal testing of the 180gr Golden Saber at warp velocities is???? Please share the R&D spec sheets with the rest of us.

This is an extremely tough angle to penetrate, in fact, .40S&W Rem 180gr UMC deflected off this soft steel at a 45 degree angle.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/10mmpeelbacksoftsteelplus4waterjugs.jpg

As stated, at 1275fps the 180gr Golden Saber acts like most other bullets, bring the velocity up to 10mm level 1380fps and . . . notice the large, gaping hole in the steel barrier plus four one gallon jugs of water totally exploded.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/Bottles2-410mm180grGSgapingsteelhol.jpg

The jacket separated in bottle #4, but the bullet didn't frag leaving the lead core at .720" expansion.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/-720expansion10mm.jpg

I can guarantee that at 1000fps, the 180gr GS would not have performed as the above pictures show. Those who have the capability to shoot 10mm velocities fast and accurate do so with the expectation of quicker incapacitation times based upon bullet performance.

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
05-29-2008, 03:47
How do you know they spent a million dollars(sounds like a bit too round of a figure to me), and why would you think their main mission was terminal in nature? Seems to me they would be spending much more time on stuff like which bonding process works best for their manufacturing methods, along with getting the bullet to react how they want it to when faced with various barriers and so forth.

I don't know Bob, I would lean towards the idea that you way oversimplified in your above statement. There was more than likely money spent on packaging.....

I like to share what I learn, if you want to dis it with your opinion than fine; it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. But while you are dissing the Winchester R&D dollar numbers, how much do you think it costs Sierra to use the Army Proving Grounds at Yuma for a couple of days??? The life cycle of a bullet in human tissue is from one to two milliseconds.

I watched an interview with a Hornady R&D engineer, the designs are extremely complex, the center of pressure needs to be in harmony with the center of mass or the bullet will tumble, ogive construction material and its radius, lead alloys and the list goes on. Test tens of thousands of rounds in various platforms/calibers/weights after tooling up for new designs, modification of the design if needed, plus construct it to pass FBI tests and your opinion negates all this in favor of stating it costs more for packaging than R&D.

Well, you're entitled to your own specific opinion, which may or may not be shared by others.

Bob :cowboy:

uz2bUSMC
05-29-2008, 04:51
I think DT is the best thing since sliced bread, personally. It even comes in nice 50rnd boxes for a great price. Hell, it even looks pretty!:cool:


Oh, BTW, it has more than a hundred ft.lbs to spare over the other common crap besides the silvertips...

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 08:49
I like to share what I learn, if you want to dis it with your opinion than fine; it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. But while you are dissing the Winchester R&D dollar numbers, how much do you think it costs Sierra to use the Army Proving Grounds at Yuma for a couple of days??? The life cycle of a bullet in human tissue is from one to two milliseconds.

I watched an interview with a Hornady R&D engineer, the designs are extremely complex, the center of pressure needs to be in harmony with the center of mass or the bullet will tumble, ogive construction material and its radius, lead alloys and the list goes on. Test tens of thousands of rounds in various platforms/calibers/weights after tooling up for new designs, modification of the design if needed, plus construct it to pass FBI tests and your opinion negates all this in favor of stating it costs more for packaging than R&D.

Well, you're entitled to your own specific opinion, which may or may not be shared by others.

Bob :cowboy:

I didn't dis anything. You're blowing my post way out of proportion. All I'm saying is if a company spends $1,000,000 developing a bullet, it cost doesn't all go to "terminal ballistics".

AND, your statement was a tad weird anyway, as if expansion/penetration numbers into various medias and through barriers into various medias aren't important and have nothing to do with terminal ballistics. I'ld say they have everything to do with terminal ballistics.

Besides that, I'm sure there's plenty of metalurgy stuff involved. They generally want to keep fragmentation down to a minimum. Blah Blah Blah. We don't have to be aliens of another species to grasp the basics of what goes into developing a SD bullet. Get it? Why you even made the statement you did in reference to Jdog's post, I have NO IDEA.

Loosen Up Bob,
Craig:thumbsup:

Preußen
05-29-2008, 09:49
PrepuBescents' post was not worth responding to, word for word. I laughed a bit though! :wavey:
resorting to personal attacks now?
I should report you for having no class

Rekced
05-29-2008, 10:51
Heck, with that kind of skepticism, you should be saying:

"Oh, this [Any big-name brand ammo manufacturer here.] ammo has pictures of its expansion, but you know what? That could've been picked and chosen, since it was the only one that looked good!" Or "I wasn't there to see it happen, so no matter how many pictures or even videos (which can be doctored, especially by MILLION dollar ammo companies) I see them put out, I will not trust them 'til I do the tests myself!"




To each their own then. When we're serious about selecting a self defense round many of us have to rely on other peoples' research. I have not seen any testing from double tap and I have been waiting for it ever sense the guy started doing business. I have emailed him a few times and came up dry. All we have is numbers posted on the forums. If you want to bet your life on the claims of some guy on the web who won't even produce pictures, go ahead.

Preußen
05-29-2008, 11:45
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6523/goldensaber11pr6.jpg

Holy case separartion, Batman! :wow:

Ideal hunting and self-defense ammunition will retain 100% weight after penetration. The above photo demonstrates how Golden Saber bullets weren't intended to be used.

Those are what i call hot, 'bubba-ized' handloads - Pushing bullets beyond their designed capabilities. Good luck with alllllll that. More is being lost than gained IMO.

Funny how the boring 230gr JHP .45 ACP lollygagging along at 860 fps is still so effective in most self-defense scenarios.

You guys crack me up with all these spectacular hyped-up velocity figures and reliance on some factory quoted numbers with which to hang your hats on. Some of y'all probably even think a bad guy will go down in hail of sparks and get blown out of his sneakers after getting hit with your super-duper +P+ loaded 9mm and .40 S&Ws.

Every time someone gets into a caliber war/pissing match here some fanboy-cheerleader is quick to whip out the DT velocity/energy figure charts and show how superior their ammunition is because it's going faster than whatever you may be using. HELLO. It's still a weak handgun
:mallninja:

Northalius
05-29-2008, 12:17
resorting to personal attacks now?
I should report you for having no class

Can't take being called a "child" using a more adult word? :tongueout:

You know what they say: Can't take the heat? Get outta to dragons' mouth. :supergrin:

Every time someone gets into a caliber war/pissing match here some fanboy-cheerleader is quick to whip out the DT velocity/energy figure charts and show how superior their ammunition is because it's going faster than whatever you may be using. HELLO. It's still a weak handgun

Ah, and you can conceal a rifle / shotgun on your person, all day, every day? Please, do tell me the trick!

If not, then a handgun is all you have to rely upon when walking around a Mall, church, the street, etc. So we've got to see which is the best of "the weakling handguns" right? Just like rifles and shotguns are weak compared to rockets and grenade-launchers; but you don't see soldiers laughing at rifles and shotguns in light of that, do you? Each weapon has its place to be used.

So, to what we can conceal on our person, we must find the most powerful round we can shoot effectively, while holding as many rounds as we personally see fit.

So, if we're not to care about the best handgun caliber, then you don't mind carrying a .22 short pistol, while I carry my 10mm pistol?

You're basically saying (?) "They're all weak, so why bother getting the best out of those in competition?" Pretty clueless way to look at it, if I do say so myself. Even the combat soldier has a pistol on him in war. Says something, now doesn't it? Don't bother with saying "Yeah, with a rifle as his primary weapon, though!" Because we already went through this above, where us lowly citizens can't conceal a rifle on us in a Mall, or the streets. ;)

In light of that, wouldn't you want to have a pistol (with the choice of your ammo capacity) closest to being the power of a rifle, as much as that pistol can? Compared to other pistols? I would! So there you have it, kid. Come to reality! :)

And no, I don't think these will be one-shot stopping magic bullets... but I know I'll have as much of an advantage as I can get when it comes to semi-auto calibers! That's all I'm talking about.

Shot placement matters a lot, true; and shot placement being equal: The bigger, faster, heavier bullet is almost always superior! Fact. Having 11 to 16 of those types of rounds (in a Glock 29 or 20), going the fastest on the market, makes it even better to me! :wavey:

Preußen
05-29-2008, 12:31
Ah, and you can conceal a rifle / shotgun on your person, all day, every day? Please, do tell me the trick!

[snip] :chatter:

I saw you posted the DT energy/velocity figures at The Firing Line as well :rofl:
[i replied]

In case you don't know, Illinois doesn't allow CCW, so your argument with me is moot. And don't try and goad me into an argument about it.

Speaking of child-like behavior, every time you show me up with your superior velocity and more powerful ammunition figures, i have a good laugh.
Are you even old enough to drink or vote?

GlockWheeler
05-29-2008, 13:33
Personally, I would not choose the Golden Sabre bullet for use in hot 10mm loads, as it seems to have an issue with core/jacket separation even when used in the 40S&W loading (the bonded version seems to hold up better). The only bullet that I would choose for that role would be the Gold Dot or maybe a Hornady XTP. One of the best 10mm loads I have used in my Glock 29 is the Pro Load 155 grain Gold Dot (too bad they are no longer in business). They loaded the cartridge to run right at about 1350 fps and it had relatively mild recoil as well as being one of the most accurate loads from my G-29. The Winchester Silvertip is also very accurate and has mild recoil as well. I have found that my favorite loads for the 10mm are somewhere between nuclear and warm levels. However, I don't carry my G-29 just because it can use nuclear loads, but because with warm loads it has less felt recoil and considerably better acccuracy than any of the 40S&W pistols I have owned.

Northalius
05-29-2008, 14:04
I saw you posted the DT energy/velocity figures at The Firing Line as well :rofl:
[i replied]

In case you don't know, Illinois doesn't allow CCW, so your argument with me is moot. And don't try and goad me into an argument about it.

Speaking of child-like behavior, every time you show me up with your superior velocity and more powerful ammunition figures, i have a good laugh.
Are you even old enough to drink or vote?

Ah, so you're talking about which handgun rounds are [supposedly] better to use, yet you look at all handguns as being weak (seemingly useless?), simply because you CAN'T conceal a handgun on you in your crappy communist state? Oh, you poor soul. It's no wonder you act like this! Such a deprived child! Move to a state where you can conceal-carry a pistol! You're looking at this whole issue from a rifle / shotgun power standpoint for home defense, as compared to a pistol? It's no wonder! :upeyes:

And yeah, skip over the valid points I made which you probably can't counter; but you know it's true.

So, again, you poor thing, you can't even carry a pistol on you when walking around the city, but you're calling all pistols WEAK? So what you're thinking is that with NO gun on you while walking around the street... is better than a "weak" pistol? :rofl:

MmmmHmm... great "logic" there, sir. :upeyes: :faint:

Preußen
05-29-2008, 16:21
Ah, so you're talking about which handgun rounds are [supposedly] better to use, yet you look at all handguns as being weak (seemingly useless?), simply because you CAN'T conceal a handgun on you in your crappy communist state? Oh, you poor soul. It's no wonder you act like this! Such a deprived child!

[edited out the childish smilies]


Based on your [arrogant sounding] opinion, you'll die in the street for not using this fantastic ammunition that goes a few FPS faster than big three ammo because the DT factory quoted numbers are gospel. [they even used a Glock 19 for their 9mm testing!] I used to pour over every factory published velocity/energy number and dote on which one is fastest, has most energy, etc.. It is all just a simple reference tool, not gospel. There are too many variations in handguns for you to say with authority that because the factory specs say this is what it'll do, doesn't necessarily translate to every gun out there.


A handgun whether used it be for home D or CCW still uses the same [weak] ammunition. No sh_t you cannot pack a shotgun or AR concealed on your person - so your argument is based on the fact that you need +P+ ammunition to stop the threat, when i'm arguing that you don't. get off your high horse and stop drinking the koolaid.

here's a very special cheer just for YOU!
:cheerleader: http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7124/cheerleadersea6.jpg :cheerleader:

Northalius
05-29-2008, 17:00
:upeyes:

Anyway, back to the OP: Try DoubleTap out for yourself; don't listen to anyone else here, like this guy above! Just spend $30 on 50 rounds, and see!

:wavey:

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 18:43
Let's see your pictures. Don't have 'em? I didn't think so.
Out the window my theory goes I guess. :faint:
Guess you're still up tight, and now calling me a liar. So if I head over to my "Gun Room" right now and go grab the 155gr Gold Dot bullet(that was at one time a component of a DT 10mm load) and take a picture of it next to a ruler(I don't own a caliper yet), download it to photobucket, and post it on GT just for you to see..............then you come back and post that it may or may not be a Gold Dot bullet, and if it is a Gold Dot bullet how do we know it's a 155gr, and on and on and on and on and on and on...................See the problem here???

So what the heck is the difference if I go through the minimal hassle to post it just for you, and you come back with more BS??? And BTW, I'm not a liar. And BTW, in general, I have no problem posting a pic for you. But no way am I posting it just for you to come back with more BS. It's up to you, let me know.
Now I'm a hypocrite because I haven't bothered trying a prove that Doubletap ammo doesn't expand to its advertised claims. I never claimed Double Tap ammo doesn't perform as advertised. I merely made the point that there isn't any real evidence that backs up Double Tap's performance claims. I have a lot of faith in some areas of my life and ammunition performance is definitely not one of them.
ARE YOU THAT DENSE OR WHAT??? BUY ONE BOX OF DT AMMO, SHOOT SOME ROUNDS INTO SOME STUFF, AND NOTE THE RESULTS. GEEZ, HOW HARD IS IT??? YOU'RE SO FREAKED OUT ABOUT IT, YOU WHINE AND COMPLAIN ENDLESSLY, AND IN THE END YOU CAN'T GET YOURSELF TO BUY ONE FRIGGIN BOX, JUST SO YOU CAN SHUT YOURSELF UP??? SOUNDS TO ME LIKE IF DT WOULD HAVE POSTED ANY PICS YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE THEM ANYWAY AND WOULD SAY THEY WERE CHERRY PICKED!!! SO ORDER UP ONE STUPID BOX OF DT 10MM GOLD DOTS AND SHOOT'EM!!!!! And YES, you should take it that everything in all caps was me yelling this to you at the top of my lungs.:rant:
Yeah, that's why I own a 10mm Glock...
So what does that prove? I know MANY gun owners who own plenty of guns, and have particular guns in their collection(usually most of them), that they really don't care that they own, nor do they ever shoot them, blah blah blah. So who gives a &%$# if you own one or not. The question is how much do you favor it over your other guns, and besides that, do you ever shoot it.

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 19:31
To each their own then. When we're serious about selecting a self defense round many of us have to rely on other peoples' research. I have not seen any testing from double tap and I have been waiting for it ever sense the guy started doing business. I have emailed him a few times and came up dry. All we have is numbers posted on the forums. If you want to bet your life on the claims of some guy on the web who won't even produce pictures, go ahead.

Yea, and if Mike posted pics, you'ld have numbers and pics as opposed to just numbers, and you still wouldn't believe what the manufacturer(Mike) put up anyway. So what's the point? You're only going to believe what you see yourself when you shoot them. So get off your lazy arse and order up a box of DT 10mm Gold Dots(I could care less what bullet weight), and shoot'em. I have yet to be unimpressed.

Back when I had my G20C I shot up a lot of different DT 10mm ammo. It was true, the 135gr Noslers were pretty frag nasty depending what I shot them into. Overall, the Golden Sabers and XTPs(180gr and 200gr) held together well with core/jacket separation once in a while.

I just remembered about some XTPs and a Golden Saber I had in a can in the back of the ammo shelf that were fired through my old G20C. The Golden Saber HONESTLY measured out to a diameter of JUST BARELY OVER .81"(180gr bullet). And the 180gr and 200gr XTPs mostly all hit .75", some a hair more, and some a hair less, but they were pretty much all right at the .75" mark of the ruler. None of those were fired into water jugs. They were shot into wet sand at a rivers edge. Some of the XTPs may have been fired into wet newspaper, I don't know. It's not that I don't know if I ever fired any into wet newspaper, because I know I did, it's just that I don't know if any of these bullets were from that day.

Even though the Golden Sabers and XTPs pretty much expand the same way, it appears the Golden Sabers get the better expansion because of the deeper hollow point cavity.

I have yet to order and shoot up some of the 165gr and 180gr DT 10mm Gold Dot loads. I will eventually, just haven't gotten around to it yet. So far I've just been so happy with the 155gr Gold Dot loads that I think I've been having a tad too much fun with them.

I'll ask around and see if I can find someone near my home who owns a caliper to get some "true" measurements of these expanded bullets I have laying around here. Can't promise anything.

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 19:37
In case you don't know, Illinois doesn't allow CCW, so your argument with me is moot.
Guess some of your arguements are moot with many of the rest of us then too.:whistling:

Preußen
05-29-2008, 19:47
Guess some of your arguements are moot with many of the rest of us then too.:whistling:
is the koolaid so strong that it's impairing your judgement? What a silly comment.. WTF is the difference between CCW and home D handgun ammunition? Oh wait, it's no good unless it's DT ammunition, right?
:cheerleader:

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 19:58
is the koolaid so strong that it's impairing your judgement? What a silly comment.. WTF is the difference between CCW and home D handgun ammunition? Oh wait, it's no good unless it's DT ammunition, right?
:cheerleader:

I said SOME arguements, as you claim have already existed, and did. But to take what you said a bit further, I do choose different ammo for inside my home as opposed to open carrying or concealed carrying outside my home and or property. Plus, at the house I do have the long guns too. The 308 is loaded up with Hornady 110gr TAP, and the Benelli 12gauge is loaded up with Winchester Supreme High Velocity Turkey loads(never bothered to pick up true SD ammo for it), and the 223 I leave empty as I figure it would work better as a club than a gun against BGs.:whistling:

dougader
05-29-2008, 21:22
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6523/goldensaber11pr6.jpg

Holy case separartion, Batman! :wow:

Ideal hunting and self-defense ammunition will retain 100% weight after penetration. The above photo demonstrates how Golden Saber bullets weren't intended to be used.

Says who? This bullet performed excellently and retained enough weight to do so. Just because the jacket was shed (in the 4th water jug, no less!) doesn't mean anything; the work was already done. Look at the slug in that picture. Its huge, and it obviously has enough retained weight to have done the job that was expected of it.

I had a client shoot a huge 6x6 elk with his 30-06. The 180 grain Rem Core-Lokt bullet broke the left rear hip, continued on diagonally through the animal, tearing through the right lung, breaking a rib, smashing the right front leg and stopping just under the hide on the off side. The animal dropped at the shot and never got back up again. By the time "Grover" got there, the animal was dead.

I guess you'd call that a failure, too, because the bullet only retained about 85% of its original weight.

glock20c10mm
05-29-2008, 21:29
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6523/goldensaber11pr6.jpg
Are you sure that's a Golden Saber? I don't see any gold on it. The ones I recovered from my 10mm in DT loads still had the gold on them. What specific caliber and bullet weight was it?

Colorado4Wheel
05-29-2008, 21:44
Check this:

[COLOR="Red"][B]
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”

My Hornady XTP 10mm loads say 1190fps. That is out of a 5 inch barrel IIRC. Either way it's unlikely it's a full 1190 out of your G29. 1100fps of that XTP bullet would be a good round. Also, look at that expansion. .77 is great and I hear the XTP expands reliable at much lower speeds as well. It's the same as their .40S&W as well.

Glolt20-91
05-29-2008, 23:33
Are you sure that's a Golden Saber? I don't see any gold on it. The ones I recovered from my 10mm in DT loads still had the gold on them. What specific caliber and bullet weight was it?

I'm getting tired of you second guessing everything I post, go back to page three of this thread, look at the original picture and the live round above the caliper. :)

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
05-29-2008, 23:53
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6523/goldensaber11pr6.jpg

Holy case separartion, Batman! :wow:

Ideal hunting and self-defense ammunition will retain 100% weight after penetration. The above photo demonstrates how Golden Saber bullets weren't intended to be used.

Those are what i call hot, 'bubba-ized' handloads - Pushing bullets beyond their designed capabilities. Good luck with alllllll that. More is being lost than gained IMO.

Funny how the boring 230gr JHP .45 ACP lollygagging along at 860 fps is still so effective in most self-defense scenarios.

You guys crack me up with all these spectacular hyped-up velocity figures and reliance on some factory quoted numbers with which to hang your hats on. Some of y'all probably even think a bad guy will go down in hail of sparks and get blown out of his sneakers after getting hit with your super-duper +P+ loaded 9mm and .40 S&Ws.

Every time someone gets into a caliber war/pissing match here some fanboy-cheerleader is quick to whip out the DT velocity/energy figure charts and show how superior their ammunition is because it's going faster than whatever you may be using. HELLO. It's still a weak handgun
:mallninja:

Are you in touch with the real world??? Since you haven't posted any of your own field tested personal results, many people here can conclude you don't have any field experience to sustain you're out of touch myopic personal opinions.

Anticipating your harangue on anything that's faster than a speeding koala,
perhaps you can explain why Federal bullet designers designed their 230gr Hydrashok at lollygagging velocities to separate? No steel barrier, no bottle caps blown off, jacket in #3 bottle, lead core in #4; nothing spectacular to conclude the Hydrahok would have more comminution than the above 10mm/180gr GS.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230hydrashokmotionbottlesJan2.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

Glolt20-91
05-30-2008, 00:05
Not whining.
I don't like DT ammo. There, i said it.
I don't have to give credit, i don't have to get rid of my anti-DT bias, and i don't have to accept the truth as you see it.. Who are you to tell me what to do?


:cheerleader:
Gimme a D
Gimme a T
yay DT, yay DT
:cheerleader:

you're always the first one in a thread to whip out the spectacular DT ammo velocities and energy figures. Bully for you! Maybe you'll get a free box of ammo for being so fiercely loyal
:cheerleader:

So, do you feel the same way about the Corbon/Sierra bullet combinations?

Bob :cowboy:

uz2bUSMC
05-30-2008, 00:25
Preussen,

Some handguns are not as weak as you think...

Preußen
05-30-2008, 00:44
Are you in touch with the real world??? Since you haven't posted any of your own field tested personal results, many people here can conclude you don't have any field experience to sustain you're out of touch myopic personal opinions.

Perhaps you've missed all of the photos i've shared here of my own personal ammunition testing in wetpack and 4 layers of denim for most service calibers using factory premium ammunition...

My wetpack ammo testing can aquire actual penetration depth, velocity [when using a chrono], and recovered diameter. All you have are plastic water-filled milk jugs, a rough guestimate of penetration depth, and a few $5 words to baffle them with. Los Suenos summed up your ammo testing pretty well in another thread
:wavey:


@ uz2bUSMC - i have a .44 Magnum handgun that i consider powerful

Rekced
05-30-2008, 02:33
Guess you're still up tight, and now calling me a liar. So if I head over to my "Gun Room" right now and go grab the 155gr Gold Dot bullet(that was at one time a component of a DT 10mm load) and take a picture of it next to a ruler(I don't own a caliper yet), download it to photobucket, and post it on GT just for you to see..............then you come back and post that it may or may not be a Gold Dot bullet, and if it is a Gold Dot bullet how do we know it's a 155gr, and on and on and on and on and on and on...................See the problem here???

So what the heck is the difference if I go through the minimal hassle to post it just for you, and you come back with more BS??? And BTW, I'm not a liar. And BTW, in general, I have no problem posting a pic for you. But no way am I posting it just for you to come back with more BS. It's up to you, let me know.

ARE YOU THAT DENSE OR WHAT??? BUY ONE BOX OF DT AMMO, SHOOT SOME ROUNDS INTO SOME STUFF, AND NOTE THE RESULTS. GEEZ, HOW HARD IS IT??? YOU'RE SO FREAKED OUT ABOUT IT, YOU WHINE AND COMPLAIN ENDLESSLY, AND IN THE END YOU CAN'T GET YOURSELF TO BUY ONE FRIGGIN BOX, JUST SO YOU CAN SHUT YOURSELF UP??? SOUNDS TO ME LIKE IF DT WOULD HAVE POSTED ANY PICS YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE THEM ANYWAY AND WOULD SAY THEY WERE CHERRY PICKED!!! SO ORDER UP ONE STUPID BOX OF DT 10MM GOLD DOTS AND SHOOT'EM!!!!! And YES, you should take it that everything in all caps was me yelling this to you at the top of my lungs.:rant:

So what does that prove? I know MANY gun owners who own plenty of guns, and have particular guns in their collection(usually most of them), that they really don't care that they own, nor do they ever shoot them, blah blah blah. So who gives a &%$# if you own one or not. The question is how much do you favor it over your other guns, and besides that, do you ever shoot it.


I never called you a liar or questioned your integrity. It's kinda sad that you can't have a conversation w/o going into the whole "you called me a liar and them are fightin' words!" bit.

I will not purchase Double Tap to shoot at trees or buckets of water when there is plenty of other ammo out there that has been tested thoroughly. I have I have suggested this to DT politely. I have also contacted the manufactures of the bullets used in DT ammo and was given a wonderfully informative explanation of why their bullets traveling at those speeds is not a good idea.

I bought a Glock 29 because I like it. I don't intend to prove it.

Rekced
05-30-2008, 02:45
I just remembered about some XTPs and a Golden Saber I had in a can in the back of the ammo shelf that were fired through my old G20C. The Golden Saber HONESTLY measured out to a diameter of JUST BARELY OVER .81"(180gr bullet). And the 180gr and 200gr XTPs mostly all hit .75", some a hair more, and some a hair less, but they were pretty much all right at the .75" mark of the ruler. None of those were fired into water jugs. They were shot into wet sand at a rivers edge. Some of the XTPs may have been fired into wet newspaper, I don't know. It's not that I don't know if I ever fired any into wet newspaper, because I know I did, it's just that I don't know if any of these bullets were from that day.

Even though the Golden Sabers and XTPs pretty much expand the same way, it appears the Golden Sabers get the better expansion because of the deeper hollow point cavity.

I have yet to order and shoot up some of the 165gr and 180gr DT 10mm Gold Dot loads. I will eventually, just haven't gotten around to it yet. So far I've just been so happy with the 155gr Gold Dot loads that I think I've been having a tad too much fun with them.

I'll ask around and see if I can find someone near my home who owns a caliper to get some "true" measurements of these expanded bullets I have laying around here. Can't promise anything.


Sounds like you did a good little test. I'm inclined to believe what you say.

I'll be a true believer when I see their ammo scrutinized and tested using an FBI protocol or something similar. Just has to be somewhere in the ballpark of what they claim.

glock20c10mm
05-30-2008, 06:48
I'm getting tired of you second guessing everything I post, go back to page three of this thread, look at the original picture and the live round above the caliper. :)

Bob :cowboy:
Sorry about the bullet pic Bob. I believe you. I was in too much of a rush last night before running off to bed and quoted PreuBen as if it was his pic. Sorry for the confusion. Everything else I had every right to question.

You're whole terminal ballistics thing, where you posted penetration and expansion have nothing to do with terminal ballistics was BS, period. Maybe you need to go back and read what you actually wrote. If you meant something different, you should have said something different. I can only go by what you type up and post. If you can't take the heat(which was only constructive criticism at least meant to clarify) you picked the wrong state to live in.

glock20c10mm
05-30-2008, 06:53
I never called you a liar...

You said;

Let's see your pictures. Don't have 'em? I didn't think so.

Out the window my theory goes I guess. :faint:

That did seem like a probable insinuation. You could have asked for a pic, which I don't have but can get.

I can't answer to the rest of your post right now, as I should have left for work already.

Later,
Craig:wavey:

glock20c10mm
05-30-2008, 10:41
It's kinda sad that you can't have a conversation w/o going into the whole "you called me a liar and them are fightin' words!" bit.
No, it's just that you came across in a hard-headed way(not that I never do:whistling:) so I came across harshly. You have to admit, you don't usually come across as being open-minded. It wouldn't be too hard to get the wrong impression from the wording in your posts that it's possible you're just arguing to argue. Sometimes I give the benifit of the doubt and sometimes not. So how did I do with the fightin' words?:supergrin:

I will not purchase Double Tap to shoot at trees or buckets of water when there is plenty of other ammo out there that has been tested thoroughly. I have I have suggested this to DT politely.
Then why make such a big deal about it in the first place.

I have also contacted the manufactures of the bullets used in DT ammo and was given a wonderfully informative explanation of why their bullets traveling at those speeds is not a good idea.
Is it not possible that they're too proud of their design to see it used in a way that was outside their original design outline? Or maybe they'ld rather get you to buy their ammo and not promote someone elses? Or whatever other reasons the original designer of the bullets may have personally or otherwise? I don't know, I'm just saying. And you don't know either.

All I know is 155gr Gold Dots perform phenominally at 1400fps in my personal opinion which is without bias as it may be with the designer of this or that product especially if it takes away some of their sales. And sure, they got a sale from the bullets alone when DT purchased them, but I'm sure the profits are MUCH higher on loaded ammo.

I bought a Glock 29 because I like it. I don't intend to prove it.
SWEET!!!:thumbsup:

glock20c10mm
05-30-2008, 10:52
Sounds like you did a good little test. I'm inclined to believe what you say.
Well, I don't know about a good little test, I was just screwing around. At the same time, true, it wasn't just shots into water jugs where any hollow point design blows as wide open as it's ever going to.

I'll be a true believer when I see their ammo scrutinized and tested using an FBI protocol or something similar. Just has to be somewhere in the ballpark of what they claim.
Well, believe it or not, when Mike McNett posted the numbers in "The 10 Ring", he did say; "All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin." Like I said, believe him or not. I'ld be willing to bet Mike didn't do the tests himself either, particularily if it's true that all FBI protocols where used, and I would suspect they were.

It would be stupid if he said it and it wasn't the case from the standpoint that anyone else capable of running the same tests, if they did, could make Mike McNett look really stupid if the results turned out any different. In everything I've seen with Mike to this point, I'ld have a really hard time believing differently. Who knows, stranger things have happened, I'ld just bet against it, that's all.

At the same time, I can understand that you'ld like to see the full array of FBI protocol testing, as we all would. Hopefully in time....

dougader
05-30-2008, 11:09
Anticipating your harangue on anything that's faster than a speeding koala, perhaps you can explain why Federal bullet designers designed their 230gr Hydrashok at lollygagging velocities to separate? No steel barrier, no bottle caps blown off, jacket in #3 bottle, lead core in #4; nothing spectacular to conclude the Hydrahok would have more comminution than the above 10mm/180gr GS.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/45auto230hydrashokmotionbottlesJan2.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

Your testing of the Federal 45 auto 230 grain HS revealed better performance than my testing. Yours had much better expansion and penetration. Maybe it was because I shot mine from a 4" gun instead of 5".

Anyway, my chrono showed a lackluster 836 fps and only penetrated 3 water jugs, with hardly any visible upset to any but the very first jug. Expansion was minimal. Nothing like my handloads or the DT ammo I now carry. I consider my remaining Fed HS as target loads or coyote defense.

dougader
05-30-2008, 11:31
I have also contacted the manufactures of the bullets used in DT ammo and was given a wonderfully informative explanation of why their bullets traveling at those speeds is not a good idea.

I bought a Glock 29 because I like it. I don't intend to prove it.

I would love to know the details of that information.... which manufacturer, which bullets, etc.

I have seen info from Speer, for example, saying that their bullets will hold up to a great deal more than what factory loadings expose them to.

As far as testing goes, I like to check what mfg's say, just to be sure. I don't have access to proper gel testing, but I do wet phone books and water jugs and keep a relative check of my testing across calibers and bullet styles.

I know from pushing the 9mm 124 gr gold dot, that it holds up unbelievably well. Speer makes a 124 gr GDHP for 9mm and a 125 gr GDHP for 357 Sig velocities. Well, I loaded up in 9x23 Winchester and pushed the 9mm GDHP to 1523 fps and it still held up great... much better than the XTP at that velocity. The bonded core technology works amazingly well. The Speer penetrated 4 water jugs, expanded to .736" and weighed 118.1 grains, or 95% weight retention. The XTP was .590" and retained 90.9 grains, or 73% and shed the jacket in the second water jug. The lead core was found inside the 3rd jug.

Sammael
05-30-2008, 15:22
This just in:

4 pages later.....

I still use Silvertips. :P

Do carry on.

Snowman92D
05-30-2008, 15:52
...After that they shed their jackets [core separation], and don't work as designed.
But i guess all you guys using this stuff know better than Remington engineers who designed and R&D'd Golden Saber ammo. Black Talon/Ranger T is another bullet design engineered to expand and function within a certain velocity window.

Gold Dots will hold together better when driven to hypervelocity. They're also designed to operate within a certain velocity window, but whatever..

sounds to me like the OP had his mind already made up to use DT ammo and was seeking the support of the DT cheerleaders so prevalent here.


We have to keep in mind that R&D engineers are limited to testing their ammo in ordnance gel, which only serves to give you a baseline idea on how the bullet design in question might work in living tissue. Gell-o testing simply isn't the final word on bullet performance as badly as some folks might wish it to be.

"Wildcatting" of various cartridges has a long and honorable tradition in this country. It's the nature of Americans to push the envelope to see how much "horsepower" they can wring out of a tool or device. I'm not aware of anyone being injured, killed or frightened into reading the IWBA Journal by the simple act of shooting DT's ammo.

Other than annoying gell-o ballistic experts, what's the harm in DT (or others) pushing things a bit?

Sammael
05-30-2008, 16:46
Indeed!

Those guys in the R&D department need more realistic, life-like testing mediums!








.....like milk jugs. :upeyes:


:supergrin:

Colorado4Wheel
05-30-2008, 16:57
What do you guys carry in your G20/29 for self defense? I am thinking about speer gold dot 155gr. As of today, I am carrying Hornady 180gr JHP/XTP in my G29. I am thinking that my current self defense carry is over kill. What do you think? Thanks!


This just in:

4 pages later.....

I still use Silvertips. :P

Do carry on.

Hornady Claimes 180gr @ 1190fps from a 5 inch barrel (556ftlbs)
Winchester Claimes 175gr @ 1290 from a 5.5 inch barrel (649ftlbs)

Both are well above the same brands .40 S&W offerings. I would carry either with confidence. I use the Hornady 180gr in my 10mm for home protection.

uz2bUSMC
05-30-2008, 17:00
@ uz2bUSMC - i have a .44 Magnum handgun that i consider powerful


Then you must handload.

MoJo33
03-05-2009, 17:35
People are way to passionate about this. We, and by we I mean you, are arguing about apples. Some of you like red apples, some like green, some want the peel off others like it on, some want the apple cut into pieces others want it whole. Come on, we are arguing details, Winchester, Remington, Hornaday, Winchester, Corbon, Double Tap ect... ect... they are all good for Self Defense.

I carry 165 grain gold dots by DT in my 29 but I would not feel under powered with something else.

Scott 10mm
03-05-2009, 19:35
I use the Cor-Bon 135 10mm for Self Defense/Home Protection. Mabye I should use it for hunting too!!!!
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_147_24/ai_62655369


gunblast has a good review on the G20 with a wide range of ammo tested.
http://www.gunblast.com/Glock20.htm

sgtbones
07-16-2010, 22:20
What do you guys carry in your G20/29 for self defense? I am thinking about speer gold dot 155gr. As of today, I am carrying Hornady 180gr JHP/XTP in my G29. I am thinking that my current self defense carry is over kill. What do you think? Thanks!
no stick with what you have

gwillis6
08-06-2010, 17:18
180 grain XTP over 9.5 grains of Hodgdon Longshot lit by WLP primers= :supergrin:

1200 +/- fps (1150-1250) Muzzle Velocity and 624 ft/lbs. Muzzle Energy.

Click link below for a video of the above load (rednecks shooting water jugs)
Quick...paddle faster....I hear banjos!

10mm XTP test video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TyF2WPiZeM)

gwillis6
08-06-2010, 17:37
:laughabove: Ask and you shall receive....

Indeed!

Those guys in the R&D department need more realistic, life-like testing mediums!

.....like milk jugs. :upeyes:


:supergrin:

TheGrimReaper
08-06-2010, 23:08
DOUBLE TAP!!! It is the way to go in the 10MM!!!

Darkangel1846
08-08-2010, 12:32
And the winner is...

165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"