View Full Version : So which gun brands are not cheaping out?
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 18:45 Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
Fed Five Oh 06-10-2008, 18:54 Hi-Points haven't changed any in quality.
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 18:55 Hi-Points haven't changed any in quality.
:supergrin:
Brass Nazi 06-10-2008, 18:55 Korth, Holland and Holland.
rgregoryb 06-10-2008, 18:56 Wilson Combat
most all of the more common makers have several levels of quality. a S&W 952 is a world apart from a S&W sigma even if they're both 9mms. i suspect if you look at some of the more custom makers like STI, wilson, bear, etc. you'll find the cheaper firearms might have a cast frame compared to forged on the more expensive guns. in my mind glock, s&w, sti, RR, and stag are among the top of the line firearms.
to be fair you need to define "quality". in college we defined it as "fitness for use" then we modified it a bit to " fitness for use within it's intended application". i can take a 3000$ wilson 1911 and if i want to drive nails with it i'd say it isn't worth a **** as a hammer. sort of like a bearing and a bushing, both can be perfect and meet every parameter set forth for each respective piece but a bushing won't work where you need a bearing.
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 19:26 a S&W 952
Performance center, forged parts not mim, see that you also pay a premium for those, I was mainly talking about their revolvers
Back 20 Years ago S&W revolvers were Cadillacs, now, probably a trash truck at best :crying:
Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
I am curious what Beretta parts you are talking about.
ar-steve 06-10-2008, 19:34 Whats wrong with MIM?
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 19:35 I am curious what Beretta parts you are talking about.
on the 92's, a few years ago they switched these parts:
Trigger, safety lever, mainspring cap, and the guide rod. my friend had a safety lever snap off after only 2 weeks of owning his.
When the gun was designed to be used with all metals parts, i feel alot better when it actually is, exactly why i paid 600 for a used inox, because it had the steel parts.
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 19:38 Whats wrong with MIM?
Some companies mastered it, but some havent, MIM and quality do not belong in the same sentence. MIM is used just to save money.
Brass Nazi 06-10-2008, 19:45 Some companies mastered it, but some havent, MIM and quality do not belong in the same sentence. MIM is used just to save money.
Plastic/Polymer or any other material besides unobtanium are used to save money. I have solid gold electrical wires ran in my house.
That is how I roll:rofl:
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 19:48 Plastic/Polymer or any other material besides unobtanium are used to save money. I have solid gold electrical wires ran in my house.
That is how I roll:rofl:
Psh.. Platinum ftw :tongueout:
I think MIM is every bit as good as forged if done right.
Quality can vary on both.
I still think S@W makes a very good revolver. We ***** about sleeved bbls and MIM, but fail to recognize the new guns are stonger, lighter and every bit as accurate, still well made too.
Look at some of the Bagor Punta guns, S@W has lapsed in quality in the past, too. ;)
Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
The fact that on one gun you call it cheap plastic and on a Glock you call is polymer says it all--fanboy.
Actually Beretta uses polymer finish over metal on the trigger and slide stop...And yes it's cheaper to produce. The people who say they are palstic are not informed.
As far as guide rods polymer w/ flutes is better in dirty environments cause they don't bind if they get crud on them.
BTW: I do have polymer guns and like them...
but I like good old stainless and alloy better.
Colt. Very few MIM parts, still the same machinery and stuff from 30 years ago. Check the quality of the new Series 70 guns. Forged and milled steel frames and slides, walnut stocks etc.
Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
Glocks do work,
but the cheap plastic sights are cheap plastic sights.
the front sight wiggles in place.:supergrin:
Did you ever polish some of the internals of a glock like the safety plunger?
ever notice the finish peel off?....looks cheap to me.
so glock plastic is good but everyone else's plastic is bad?
so whats the kool aid taste like?tennifer,grape, or cherry?
ElevatedThreat 06-10-2008, 20:49 MIM can be top quality, depending on how the grain structure of the metal is manipulated during cooling. The result can be a near-perfect part, with near ideal hardness and ductility.
However, too often MIM is done as a cost saving measure, and MIM done cheaply is even worse than pot metal. You can crumble a bad MIM part in your bare hand.
-ET
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 21:13 Some companies mastered it, but some havent, MIM and quality do not belong in the same sentence. MIM is used just to save money.
my SW 1911Sc proved that! The MIM was not as bad as the CHEAPEST trigger ever made that they installed in an $800 pistol. shameful
I have pics and posted a thread on it in the 1911 room a few years back when it happened. I can repair 1911s myself so swapping out the crap for good milled components and a Colt GI trigger were no big deal. ............not cheap but no biggie
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 21:26 my SW 1911Sc proved that! The MIM was not as bad as the CHEAPEST trigger ever made that they installed in an $800 pistol. shameful
I have pics and posted a thread on it in the 1911 room a few years back when it happened. I can repair 1911s myself so swapping out the crap for good milled components and a Colt GI trigger were no big deal. ............not cheap but no biggie
what happened?
Carbon steel is cheaper than Nylon 6, so I'm not sure about "cheaper" materials. It is however more costly to machine parts rather than mold.
sns3guppy 06-10-2008, 21:36 Metal Injection Molding, or MIM, does not imply poor quality, strength, or performance. It's become a buzzword among those who have educated themselves by reading internet posts and who think they know it connotes something negative. It doesn't. You might be surprised what's made by this same process.
Likewise, firearms that utilize this process for components are not by nature, inferior or of any lesser quality. Those who say as much are only professing their own ignorance.
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 21:50 Metal Injection Molding, or MIM, does not imply poor quality, strength, or performance. It's become a buzzword among those who have educated themselves by reading internet posts and who think they know it connotes something negative. It doesn't. You might be surprised what's made by this same process.
Likewise, firearms that utilize this process for components are not by nature, inferior or of any lesser quality. Those who say as much are only professing their own ignorance.
Wrong.
Alot, not all, MIM gun parts are crap
Ive known of 2 taurus ambi safetys breaking tabs
1 Para with a broken LDA hammer
Hammer spur on a model 60 s&w breaking off
and someone just posted their 1911 trigger crapped out too...
MIM parts are not perfect, and usually come from guns that are lesser quality you dont see S&W using those parts on their performance center guns, wilson combat, les baer, glock, hk, sig, and a few more, they dont use MIM because it is of lesser quality.
Wrong.
Alot, not all, MIM gun parts are crap
Ive known of 2 taurus ambi safetys breaking tabs
1 Para with a broken LDA hammer
Hammer spur on a model 60 s&w breaking off
and someone just posted their 1911 trigger crapped out too...
MIM parts are not perfect, and usually come from guns that are lesser quality you dont see S&W using those parts on their performance center guns, wilson combat, les baer, glock, hk, sig, and a few more, they dont use MIM because it is of lesser quality.
Actually, he's right.
Do a little homework. Forged parts break and have been breaking for years before MIM came along.
It just depends on the quality of the process and heat treatment.
Many high end makers, including some of those you listed use MIM.
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 21:59 what happened?
.........note the wear marks from the poor fitting from S&W. As you can se from the top of the sear it was only making contact with about %25 of the hammer .........no wonder the trigger pull was SO sweet!
And you can see on the bottom where the mainspring was eating into the soft MIM sear.
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 22:04 note the quality hand fitting of the trigger-sear interface!
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 22:07 and finally the insult of a trigger. I did not know they could be so crappy
note the bow to the right causing a FTF as it went beyond the limits of the sear interface
I build my own 1911s now with Ed Brown milled guts
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 22:12 the repaired S&W 1911Sc and one of my homebuilds.
no MIM, note the Colt GI triggers. A medium length on the Sc and and a short one on the homebuilt
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 22:13 Actually, he's right.
Do a little homework. Forged parts break and have been breaking for years before MIM came along.
It just depends on the quality of the process and heat treatment.
Many high end makers, including some of those you listed use MIM.
I never said forged parts dont break, they do, just not as often as MIM parts, very heavily in the cheaper guns, which have cheaper processes for producing those parts
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 22:14 the repaired S&W 1911Sc and one of my homebuilds.
no MIM, note the Colt GI triggers. A medium length on the Sc and and a short one on the homebuilt
I think the extractor is MIM, :whistling:.
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 22:15 it's spring steel and has never failed
IIRC the Colt uses MIM for the mag catch, sear (!) and disconnect (?)....
It looks like the SIG GSR's are using some MIM now too.
Some companies mastered it, but some havent, MIM and quality do not belong in the same sentence. MIM is used just to save money.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH MIM. MIM parts are used in automobiles, airplanes and a lot of other industries. If I can drive a car or fly by a airplane that uses MIM, I could very well use a firearm that uses MIM. I have attached a sample list of MIM parts.
http://www.epma.com/images/2006%20awards/Awards_booklet.pdf
It looks like the SIG GSR's are using some MIM now too.
Mine has it on the thumb safety.
FLIPPER 348 06-10-2008, 22:34 THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH MIM. [/url]
........except for the el-crappo MIM sear in my 1911Sc
ar-steve 06-10-2008, 22:47 Well my Springfield 1911a1 aluminum frame gun came apart in my hand so all aluminum frame guns are junk.
briansp82593 06-10-2008, 23:20 Well my Springfield 1911a1 aluminum frame gun came apart in my hand so all aluminum frame guns are junk.
I had a frame rail shear off on my beretta 20k through it, beretta replaced the frame
ar-steve 06-10-2008, 23:50 I had a frame rail shear off on my beretta 20k through it, beretta replaced the frame
Springfield was great about it. No problems with customer service
FLIPPER 348 06-11-2008, 00:13 Well my Springfield 1911a1 aluminum frame gun came apart in my hand so all aluminum frame guns are junk.
yours was it seems!
FWIW- aluminum framed 1911s are to be carried alot and shot a little. I have seen many of them worn and 'apart' from normal shooting come into the shop
Infallible 06-11-2008, 00:41 Mine has it on the thumb safety.
Your thumb saftey is not MIM, its cast. Just like the grip safety.
My friend's HS sentinel DA sear broke, Dad's hammer sear on the H@R Topper broke too.....forged parts.:whistling:
FLIPPER 348 06-11-2008, 00:56 milled sears are the best!!
Florida Jim 06-11-2008, 01:31 .........note the wear marks from the poor fitting from S&W. As you can se from the top of the sear it was only making contact with about %25 of the hammer .........no wonder the trigger pull was SO sweet!
And you can see on the bottom where the mainspring was eating into the soft MIM sear.
IIRC the main spring doesn''t contact the sear. Did you mean the sear spring?
CajunBass 06-11-2008, 07:00 Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
All guns were much better "back in the old days" when they were made out of elements so rare they didn't actually exist, by hunchback old men, who spent long hours for absolutly no pay, working for companies that never EVER, even thought about making a profit, but were in business simply because they just enjoyed making a quality product so in the future, when the internet was invented, people would be able to say "They don't make 'em like that anymore."
boilergonzo 06-11-2008, 08:17 There are MANY types of plastics... look at the recycle codes on plastics (1,2,5,7, etc.). All polymers... Don't kid yourself into thinking that only Glock uses "advanced" (1950's) polymers and everyone else uses "cheap" plastic (whatever THAT means).
Do not insist MIM is "bad". Poorly made MIM is bad, just as brittle plastics would be "bad", but the engineers who design the guns, and the business people who watch the balance sheets put the appropriate cost for performance product into their guns (Lorcin goes cheap, sells cheap, some 1911's go super-premium and charge super-premium... most strike a balance). Just as some are blasting Beretta, many blast Glock for plastic content. Both make fine weapons, but you have a preference and choose to believe Glock's engineers have access to magical polymers, when that simply is not true.
Give Glock credit for the hard part (fantastic engineering, quality control, and original concept). Don't give them credit for dime-a-dozen details (Nylon-6, Tennifer, etc.). Dow, DuPont, Durferrit and folks like that developed those and deserve the accolades! Glock's competitors pick from the exact same pool of resources that Glock does.
The Ruger P-series and Ruger revolvers have not changed in quality. They're still rugged and built to last.
Your thumb saftey is not MIM, its cast. Just like the grip safety.
The grip safety seems to made from stainless, but the thumb safety is; discolored, feels off, has mold lines, etc.
fnfalman 06-11-2008, 12:04 Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Polymer isn't the same as "cheap plastic".
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
fnfalman 06-11-2008, 12:07 Give Glock credit for the hard part (fantastic engineering, quality control, and original concept).
I'll give them credits for pretty darn good engineering and pretty decent quality control. But original concept? Methinks them other German boys at Heckler & Koch might have a say or two about plastic pistols.
http://www.rescueteam.it/immagini/immaginiasg/hk-vp70.jpg
All guns were much better "back in the old days" when they were made out of elements so rare they didn't actually exist, by hunchback old men, who spent long hours for absolutly no pay, working for companies that never EVER, even thought about making a profit, but were in business simply because they just enjoyed making a quality product so in the future, when the internet was invented, people would be able to say "They don't make 'em like that anymore."
:rofl:
Perfect post!
I'll give them credits for pretty darn good engineering and pretty decent quality control. But original concept? Methinks them other German boys at Heckler & Koch might have a say or two about plastic pistols.
http://www.rescueteam.it/immagini/immaginiasg/hk-vp70.jpg
yep...
dont for get the P9's also.
jonusmcg 06-11-2008, 14:40 I am curious what Beretta parts you are talking about.
Well, I can tell you that I've had a lot of experience with the M9 Beratta and in all honesty, I could do without it. It seems like every time I touch one, I break a safety lever off of it.
Who is still a quality brand anymore? for example, S&W and MIM, Beretta and cheap plastic, etc...
Let me state, Glock does not cheap out because they use plastic parts (actually polymer), its because they work, Beretta on the other hand, uses cheap plastic because they are cheap (actual plastic :miff:)
Give me a break with this stupid Glock plastic superiority. Ridiculous.
Glocks feel about as cheap as polymer pistol get.
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