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userfriendly
06-12-2008, 05:45
Which is more potent a .22lr fired from a rifle or a 9mm from a pistol? Lets say for home defense which should I grab first? These are the ones I have so I'm limited to them.

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 06:18
Which is more potent a .22lr fired from a rifle or a 9mm from a pistol? Lets say for home defense which should I grab first? These are the ones I have so I'm limited to them.

This is assuming that you can shoot the .22 and the 9MM equally well.

Home defense implies that both you and your target will be inside your house. In very tight quarters, the length of the rifle becomes a distinct disadvantage. It is like trying to use a jungle bolo to fight while inside a closet.

The 9MM is superior to the .22LR for defensive purposes. The compactness of the pistol would also help you while navigating around corners. It will be worthless though if you can't shoot worth a damn while under duress. The chances of you hitting something else is pretty high.

I would strongly recommend the 9MM pistol. Keep it clean and well lubricated. Take it to the shooting range and simulate shooting without using the iron sights. This is to see if you can hit a man size target in the dark. Lay the pistol on the table, pick it up and fire two shots as quickly as you can into your target and see if you hit anywhere close to the center of mass. Distance of the target? Same distance as the longest room in your house.

BrassKnuckle
06-12-2008, 06:20
Which is more potent a .22lr fired from a rifle or a 9mm from a pistol? Lets say for home defense which should I grab first? These are the ones I have so I'm limited to them.

The 9mm is more potent by a wide margin. If you look at the specs, a typical hi-velocity .22lr bullet fired from a rifle and a typical 9mm bullet fired from a pistol both have velocities in the neighborhood of 1200fps (give or take a few fps).

The clincher is the 9mm's heavier bullet commonly at around 115gns against the .22lr bullet's 40gns. That's about triple the energy right there assuming equal velocity. The 9mm's advantage becomes even more pronounced when you use premium hollowpoint bullets.

Your 9mm pistol most likely has a larger magazine capacity than your .22 rifle, and the pistol is definitely easier to maneuver inside your house.

For defending your home against 4-legged rodents, go for the .22. For 2-legged vermin I'd vote for the 9mm. ;)

cebuboy
06-12-2008, 06:55
The 9mm handgun is my first choice, shooting someone with a .22lr might just piss him off some more :)

BrassKnuckle
06-12-2008, 07:28
shooting someone with a .22lr might just piss him off some more :)


This is a valid consideration given that some intruders may be high on drugs and have a higher threshold for withstanding hits from small-caliber weapons.

I'd definitely pick the 9mm and load it with the most potent wonder bullets I can find.

Mounting a good tactical light on the pistol is also a good idea as it blinds the opponent while at the same time illuminating him.

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 07:32
Regardless of the caliber, shot placement is the key. Even though the .22 had been belittled, I will not want to be at the receiving end of it.
Here is a picture of the Israeli Army using the good old Ruger 1022 .22LR in combat.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg

Poodle
06-12-2008, 08:12
9 mm for defense.

Although I would like to acquire a Ruger 10/22 carbine with the 25 round mag.

cebuboy
06-12-2008, 10:05
Even though the .22 had been belittled, I will not want to be at the receiving end of it.


Ahihihi I was only kidding, the .22lr paltik pocket revolver is a favourite weapon of street gangs here.

bikethief
06-12-2008, 10:45
Regardless of the caliber, shot placement is the key. Even though the .22 had been belittled, I will not want to be at the receiving end of it.
Here is a picture of the Israeli Army using the good old Ruger 1022 .22LR in combat.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg


As far as I know, this picture wasn't really taken in a "combat" situation. This was a crowd dispersal operation that escalated. They use the .22 to quietly disable the instigators and firestarters. I first saw this pic in a similar discussion on rimfirecentral.com.

9mm over any .22 for me any time. .22's are fun. Home invasions aren't.

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 11:57
The term "combat" had already taken a different shade of meaning in the Middle East. Take note that these hush puppies are not used in riot control anymore because they had caused more fatality than expected.
The 9MM is clearly superior to the 22LR and I am advocating choosing it over the 22LR, but only if the owner can shoot the pistol properly. Some of us do not have the luxury of being able to shoot regularly. A properly placed 22LR shot is way more valuable than a whole bunch of stray 9MM's.

Allegra
06-12-2008, 17:47
This is assuming that you can shoot the .22 and the 9MM equally well.

Home defense implies that both you and your target will be inside your house. In very tight quarters, the length of the rifle becomes a distinct disadvantage. It is like trying to use a jungle bolo to fight while inside a closet.

The 9MM is superior to the .22LR for defensive purposes. The compactness of the pistol would also help you while navigating around corners. It will be worthless though if you can't shoot worth a damn while under duress. The chances of you hitting something else is pretty high.

I would strongly recommend the 9MM pistol. Keep it clean and well lubricated. Take it to the shooting range and simulate shooting without using the iron sights. This is to see if you can hit a man size target in the dark. Lay the pistol on the table, pick it up and fire two shots as quickly as you can into your target and see if you hit anywhere close to the center of mass. Distance of the target? Same distance as the longest room in your house.

Point shooting?

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 18:45
Point shooting?

Yup!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting

edtf
06-12-2008, 19:00
Regardless of the caliber, shot placement is the key. Even though the .22 had been belittled, I will not want to be at the receiving end of it.
Here is a picture of the Israeli Army using the good old Ruger 1022 .22LR in combat.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/Israeli_ruger-3_250.jpg

If I remember correctly they were using this against Palestinian rioters. They would shoot the rock throwers on the leg or somewhere where they won't die so that other members would carry them out. That is what they should have done during the May 1 riots here.

oooopppppps sorry bike thief just stated the same thing.

CatsMeow
06-12-2008, 19:07
Ahihihi I was only kidding, the .22lr paltik pocket revolver is a favourite weapon of street gangs here.

But the .45 is the weapon of choice for the street executioners here.:supergrin:

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 19:39
If I remember correctly they were using this against Palestinian rioters. They would shoot the rock throwers on the leg or somewhere where they won't die so that other members would carry them out. That is what they should have done during the May 1 riots here.

oooopppppps sorry bike thief just stated the same thing.

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.

Sweater
06-12-2008, 20:25
IMHO, I will go for the 9mm, I bought a 22lr for my 15 year old who practice with it, but after a couple of trips to the range she wants the G19, economically 22 ammos are cheaper, but for carry or home defense you can`t go wrong with a 9mm , especially a Glock.---Sweater

mikey177
06-12-2008, 20:34
For home defense in close quarters, I would also pick a 9mm because of its higher degree of maneuverability and because it is more difficult for an adversary to grab as you navigate corners inside your house.

However, if the threat is still outside your front door but in your yard, maybe you would want to consider not the .22LR, but the .22 WMR, which IMO could be a more potent and accurate weapon at long range than the 9mm.

Darwin convinced me that the .22 Magnum rifle is a good personal defense weapon. It is also not difficult or expensive to obtain, unlike a high-powered rifle.

From 20 meters away, the .22 Magnum can easily penetrate a 2x4, and although it has a small entry hole, it makes a much larger exit hole, as seen from this photo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/mikey177/guns/2x4_penetration_test.jpg

BrassKnuckle
06-12-2008, 20:58
There's no doubt that a .22 is lethal. The big question is: How long does it usually take for a person to be neutralized after being hit by one? If it is immediate then great (but I seriously doubt that). If it takes a while (which is more likey), then the shootee will live long enough to inflict harm or even kill the shooter armed with a .22. Of course I'm assuming a close-range encounter typical in home defense.

The objective in home/self defense is to immediately disable the assailant/s and neutralize the threat that they pose. Whether or not they die from the wounds they sustain is secondary. The bad guys are down and the good guys are safe. That's what matters.

For that mission I have much more faith in a 9mm than a .22. (Questions to ponder: What was the Ruger's mission when the IDF employed it? Is that the same mission I will assign it in a home-defense scenario?)

Just like those IDF troopers, I wouldn't mind using a Ruger .22 in combat as long as I have my M4/M16 slung behind my shoulder, my pistol in my vest, and have similarly-armed buddies standing behind me. (It's all there in the pic)

That's a helluva lot of difference with going into harm's way on my own... at short range... with "just" a .22lr... with anemic power... a less reliable rimfire priming system... and so on... with my family huddled in the room counting on me to repel the threat and keep them alive.

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 21:19
with my family huddled in the room counting on me to repel the threat and keep them alive.

My family won't be huddled in the room counting on just me to repel the threat. They might just need me to help clean up the mess later. Here are the kids...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/001-2-1.jpg

Check out the little girl shooting a 9MM..

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/firing6_18_06_006.jpg

Javelin
06-12-2008, 21:24
My family won't be huddled in the room counting on just me to repel the threat. They might just need me to help clean up the mess later. Here are the kids...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/001-2-1.jpg

Check out the little girl shooting a 9MM..

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/firing6_18_06_006.jpg

Pink wallpaper huh? :shocked:

wtf jack
06-12-2008, 21:28
Pink wallpaper huh? :shocked:

Some kind of dead purple, courtesy of the former owner of the house (I bought this house a year ago).

Allegra
06-12-2008, 22:12
Yup!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting


Though I will never admit it sa kalaban or guys I've taught hehe
I think I've done point shooting sa matches
Using Body indexing and shooting by feel IF it's a single target close by
Nga lang , the best way to learn to shoot by feel is to keep using the sights first sa dry and live fire
Sort of like learning to shoot a hookshot at bball

BrassKnuckle
06-12-2008, 22:39
My family won't be huddled in the room counting on just me to repel the threat. They might just need me to help clean up the mess later. Here are the kids...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/001-2-1.jpg

Check out the little girl shooting a 9MM..

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/torrescg/firing6_18_06_006.jpg

Nice! That's the way to do it! In fact you just gave the answer I've been tempted to give since I first read the original question. Here goes:

Save up for a shotgun or an AR (preferably both :2gun:), but if trouble comes before you have them grab the 9mm.

People complain a lot about the high prices of good guns but they should try to find out how much a funeral costs. A good gun is definitely cheaper and infinitely more user-friendly than the latter. :rofl:

jerrytrini
06-13-2008, 00:59
Close Contact Engagement (or some term in the Academy):
Place the butt of your handgun against the lower rib cage while canting the muzzle upwards, place your support hand against your forehead (to parry off possible strikes) but the eyes still on the threat then press the trigger. Use this drill with the weak hand as well. Remember, DO NOT COCK THE HAMMER.

We used IPSC paper targets on this drill, I was really surprised how inconsistent I was with my shots considering the target was two feet away.

Poodle
06-13-2008, 01:25
We have security guards in our compound but I still keep a .380 loaded pistol (with 2 extra magazines) in a gun safe. Hirap itabi matulog eh, baka managinip ako ng barilan magamit ko tuloy.

But when I go to our house in the province, katabi ko matulog ang carry gun ko, .45 caliber and a Surefire. Iba na panahon ngayon.

Allegra
06-13-2008, 03:16
Close Contact Engagement (or some term in the Academy):
Place the butt of your handgun against the lower rib cage while canting the muzzle upwards, place your support hand against your forehead (to parry off possible strikes) but the eyes still on the threat then press the trigger. Use this drill with the weak hand as well. Remember, DO NOT COCK THE HAMMER.

We used IPSC paper targets on this drill, I was really surprised how inconsistent I was with my shots considering the target was two feet away.


Steve Silverman of FRI incorporates the retention position w/ the draw
Retention position is under the armpit , pwede na rin pumutok
W/ body indexing , accurate daw up to 10m if I remember right
Eduard (EDTF )might remember
Mga glocktalkers hehe

mikey177
06-13-2008, 03:59
Retention using the pectoral index or under the armpit is very good, unless you're using a revolver... then it gets scary.

Allegra
06-13-2008, 04:06
Retention using the pectoral index or under the armpit is very good, unless you're using a revolver... then it gets scary.

Yeah , black underarms are a turnoff :)


How about a 22 w/ a bayonet??
Dati kong mossy may bayonet , I noticed ayaw tatabi sakin ng ibang tao

edtf
06-13-2008, 04:17
Steve Silverman of FRI incorporates the retention position w/ the draw
Retention position is under the armpit , pwede na rin pumutok
W/ body indexing , accurate daw up to 10m if I remember right
Eduard (EDTF )might remember
Mga glocktalkers hehe

YUP!!! index your body facing the target and you would more or less get him COM. Then when you get to that position push forward it for your stable shooting position

Tama ba yon - hehehe
Tagal hindi na ako pumuputok but I will finally go this Sunday :)

Allegra
06-13-2008, 04:52
as for not using the sights in the dark
kung nanjan na muscle memory mo from your million reps of weapon presentation , you really dont need your sights to index the gun. naks h0w do yu think caidic practices 3pt shots
If you want to be one w/ your gun , draw your gun w/ your eyes closed , when yur gun is on target w/ the sights aligned. Your path to jedi knighthood malapit na hehe
Why do you think the top shooters have faster times kahit maglakad lang sila
Because they can shoot that first shot faster than the average bear. Kasi naka memory na , kung san pupunta yung baril
Bow

userfriendly
06-13-2008, 04:55
The 9mm is more potent by a wide margin. If you look at the specs, a typical hi-velocity .22lr bullet fired from a rifle and a typical 9mm bullet fired from a pistol both have velocities in the neighborhood of 1200fps (give or take a few fps).

The clincher is the 9mm's heavier bullet commonly at around 115gns against the .22lr bullet's 40gns. That's about triple the energy right there assuming equal velocity. The 9mm's advantage becomes even more pronounced when you use premium hollowpoint bullets.

Your 9mm pistol most likely has a larger magazine capacity than your .22 rifle, and the pistol is definitely easier to maneuver inside your house.

For defending your home against 4-legged rodents, go for the .22. For 2-legged vermin I'd vote for the 9mm. ;)

Thanks this is exactly the info I was looking for.

wtf jack
06-13-2008, 05:14
Nice! That's the way to do it! In fact you just gave the answer I've been tempted to give since I first read the original question. Here goes:

Save up for a shotgun or an AR (preferably both :2gun:), but if trouble comes before you have them grab the 9mm.

People complain a lot about the high prices of good guns but they should try to find out how much a funeral costs. A good gun is definitely cheaper and infinitely more user-friendly than the latter. :rofl:

Excellent point. To paraphrase an old saying - If not expecting a gunfight, bring a pistol. If expecting a gunfight, bring a rifle and a whole bunch of friends with rifles.

edtf
06-13-2008, 08:15
as for not using the sights in the dark
kung nanjan na muscle memory mo from your million reps of weapon presentation , you really dont need your sights to index the gun. naks h0w do yu think caidic practices 3pt shots
If you want to be one w/ your gun , draw your gun w/ your eyes closed , when yur gun is on target w/ the sights aligned. Your path to jedi knighthood malapit na hehe
Why do you think the top shooters have faster times kahit maglakad lang sila
Because they can shoot that first shot faster than the average bear. Kasi naka memory na , kung san pupunta yung baril
Bow

Parang si Kevin Costner "The Bodyguard" :supergrin:

Seriously: Boss nainspire mo nanaman ako - puwede ba ako magpaturo sa iyo?

Allegra
06-13-2008, 08:33
Parang si Kevin Costner "The Bodyguard" :supergrin:

Seriously: Boss nainspire mo nanaman ako - puwede ba ako magpaturo sa iyo?

Of course fafa , kahit I'm a gunless society member , how can I refuse a friend :)

edtf
06-13-2008, 22:18
Of course fafa , kahit I'm a gunless society member , how can I refuse a friend :)

hahaha kung malapit lapit lang ako sa inyo - papaturo talaga ako sa iyo! Gawa tayo sport - biking shooting bike, shoot - parang decathlon :supergrin:

oopppsss OT na tayo :supergrin:

Allegra
06-14-2008, 01:40
hahaha kung malapit lapit lang ako sa inyo - papaturo talaga ako sa iyo! Gawa tayo sport - biking shooting bike, shoot - parang decathlon :supergrin:

oopppsss OT na tayo :supergrin:


I get a lot of requests din dito so nuon from friends, leo's , hoodlums , politicos . iniisip ko tuloy gumawa ng free insturctional dvd naks!
So they'll leave me alone. Yabang!
I'm still waoting for Michele Madrigal's manager kung pwede siya co star

edtf
06-14-2008, 05:17
I get a lot of requests din dito so nuon from friends, leo's , hoodlums , politicos . iniisip ko tuloy gumawa ng free insturctional dvd naks!
So they'll leave me alone. Yabang!
I'm still waoting for Michele Madrigal's manager kung pwede siya co star

sige lang sasakay ako sa yabang mo basta makilala ko si Michelle :)

bikethief
06-14-2008, 11:18
WTF Jack,

Do you have a range in your house? You are very lucky that your family takes an interest in our hobby/mindset. And even luckier IF you have a range on your property! 2 big boys and a little lady, all armed when needed. What more could a dad want?

Happy Father's Day nga pala sa lahat ng BOG dads here!

wtf jack
06-14-2008, 14:22
Happy Father's Day to all, and especially to Bikethief. And nope, I don't have a shooting range at my house. Believe me, I wish I did. The local shooting range that I frequent is very good with kids. The minimum age to shoot is seven years old, accompanied by adults of course.

monsignor28
06-15-2008, 09:44
9mm has more stoping power than the .22 so I will go 9mm.

zorkd
06-15-2008, 10:07
apples and oranges.