View Full Version : are we leo?
kensteele 06-14-2008, 17:31 i'm just asking because lately every time a hot topic comes up, leo is used as an example. i personally feel that the ccw is not leo and should not act as leo. i know we have leo participation in this forum and i know some people don't care for leo and feel they are their own leo (i.e. can't depend on the law), but do we always have to provide examples and scenarios of how leo act and respond just to prove a point?
ccw is totally different and many of us ccw not only don't want to take on the responsibilities of the leo but also don't want to be judged in the same way an leo-type sitation plays out either. is it too much to ask to remind fellow cch who are not leo to concentrate on the civilian scenarios and focus on what is best response for the carrying public?
i have specific examples but i thought i would start a new thread so as not to go off-topic in the other relevant threads?
and maybe i'm wrong, perhaps i'm way off base here. could it be that over time (as nothing happens personally to us but crime and outrageous behaviour continues and grows all around us) we began to evolve our thinking about self-protection to a different level? i dunno.
cguardsman 06-14-2008, 17:38 CCW is to protect me and my loved ones when Police can't. The CCW doesn't make me LEO.
Maybe someone could come up with a uniform that CHL holders would wear. Really cool, tac pants like 5 11's
Glock hat of course and a camera vest
Side zip tac boots....12 " and black
and a Maxipack
open for suggestions here.....
Sewn on cloth badge
:rofl: LMAO
...i have specific examples but i thought i would start a new thread so as not to go off-topic in the other relevant threads?...No. A license or permit to carry a concealed handgun/weapon brings with it no law enforcement authority.
What are your specifics?
Maybe someone could come up with a uniform that CHL holders would wear. Really cool, tac pants like 5 11's
Glock hat of course and a camera vest
Side zip tac boots....12 " and black
and a Maxipack
open for suggestions here.....
Sewn on cloth badge
:rofl: LMAO
Is that where we keep our wives maxipads?
And no, CHL holders are in NO way LEOs. Though it is true that some LEOs are CHL holders. You gain no powers of arrest with your CHL (though, state by state, you may have citizens arrest powers, though those are for all, not just CHL holders).
drew
akgunnut 06-14-2008, 18:43 Sorry I don't go chasing after bad guys, or go searching for someone to shoot. My sidearm is to defend myself and my loved ones in the event of an unprovoked attack. CCW holders have no LEO authority whatsoever.
rvrctyrngr 06-14-2008, 18:48 I think ken is talking more about attitude and action vs. authority.
Gunnut 45/454 06-14-2008, 18:59 Good question! Since the SCOTUS has ruled that LEO's are not here to protect the individual then in some instances yes we are the law as every American is! Now that doesn't mean we should go out and seach for the lawless and enforce law upon them. What I think it means when we or any citizen comes upon a crime being commited we should -first call 911 and if lives are being threaten and we are capable of stopping the taking of life then we should as we have the means to do just that! Now one could what if this to death, so I'm not going there- bottom line its what you the individual can live with -if watching someone get murdered is no big deal then good on you. If someone stealing a purse from an old womans spurs you into action go for it! Dependant on the situation I'm alteast calling 911!
kensteele 06-14-2008, 19:04 Good question! Since the SCOTUS has ruled that LEO's are not here to protect the individual then in some instances yes we are the law as every American is! Now that doesn't mean we should go out and seach for the lawless and enforce law upon them. What I think it means when we or any citizen comes upon a crime being commited we should -first call 911 and if lives are being threaten and we are capable of stopping the taking of life! Now one could what if this to death, so I'm not going there- bottom line its what you the individual can live with -if watching someone get murder is no big deal then good on you. If someone stealing a purse from an old womans spurs you into action go for it! Dependant on the situation I'm alteast calling 911!
but see, this is a good point. every citizen is responsible, ccw and non-ccw alike. are there additional responsibilities for the ccw?
keep in mind that we are all human and apparently all humans care for other lives being lost. if you don't agree with that, that's fine but you can't make the distinction that ccw totally care for loss of life and non-ccw can go either way.
steveksux 06-14-2008, 19:10 I look at ccw as merely a way to minimize the risk to myself and my loved ones. Where carrying increases my risk, I do not. That includes not carrying in gun free zones, I won't risk my permit by doing so, as that increases the risk to my family long term for a short term gain. If I feel I need a gun in a place that carrying is prohibited, I don't go there. Simple as that.
Carrying a pistol doesn't mean you have to use it. There's a reason there are tens of thousands of robberies in a major city, and only a few hundred murders. Because robbers rarely kill their victims. If you can make them go away for whatever cash you have in your wallet, that may well be the best option.
That said, you must be aware of the possibility, and if you have reason to suspect your robbery will be the exception, and they intend to kill you anyway, by all means shoot. My thought is your odds of drawing against a drawn gun are not good, so I will do that only as a last resort. I'd prefer to wait for a distraction or a better opportunity. If you feel your best tactical option is immediate draw and fire, I would disagree with your assessment, but you must make that decision for yourself.
OF course there's a million scenarios that fall somewhere in the middle, and you don't have all day to think about it. And nobody knows what they'll do in those situations until they do it. I also think its common for people to react completely differently to the pre-planned scenario when it actually happens. Stress has a way of throwing well laid plans out the window. Hopefully you revert to your training and all works out ok.
If they haven't killed you immediately, theres a reason. You have some time. If there are people around, a public place, they want a quiet robbery, (but of course may still shoot you and run after getting your wallet). My thought is putting them at ease by cooperating may let their guard down, mark you as an easy target. Rather than attempting something when they're at their most heightened alert level, at the beginning while they're trying to gain control of the robbery, your odds are not as good. Get them focused on the money they just took, if you think you must, you can still try to quickdraw them at that point, but then they have your wallet in hand, you have element of surprise, not them, you're in much better position than then when they first approach and are watching for you to make a move, while they're prepared to shoot with gun already drawn and trained on you.
If they take the wallet, turn to run, that's when I'm drawing, aiming at them, and if they turn, point the weapon in my direction, I'm firing a well aimed shot or two COM. If they run, don't turn around, they're good to go. I'm not LEO, I don't have to apprehend them. I'm not going closer to a bad guy with a gun to get my money back. It could cost me a lot more than what he stole in legal fees. I have to buy another pistol to carry until I get mine back from evidence, etc, etc.
If I think they're not going to take the money and run, then and only then am I prepared to attempt the "Tom Cruise Yo Homie is that my Briefcase" move. http://youtube.com/watch?v=-zJlsc8GU50&feature=related
I carry the weapon is to make me and my loved ones safer. I'll do whatever I need to with it to make me and my loved ones safer. That includes leaving it in the holster and swallowing my pride, and happily handing over my wallet. Nothing I have in my wallet is worth dying for.
On the other hand, if I'm in a group getting robbed, and the guy turns away from me and gives me a free draw and a clear shot, I'll drop them in a second. In that case, the odds of me drawing quietly and getting the drop make it a very low risk move on my part. THEN the small risk that the robbers intend to become murderers is not outweighed by the larger risk of me drawing against a drawn gun. The others about to be robbed, as are all of us, are now at a greater risk, even though its still small, of the robber killing to eliminate witnesses. I can take him out with lesser risk to myself and others, that's the plan that gives everyone the best chance of going home safe. Except the robber. His safety does not factor into my calculations. "Nothing in my wallet worth dying for" applies as a warning to the robber as well.
If they're intent on herding you into a secluded area, into the car, etc, my thought is they're trying to get you someplace more advantageous to eliminate quietly without witnesses. That is when attempting a quickdraw against a drawn gun would be your best alternative.
Bottom line: In protection of your own life or that of your loved ones, there's no difference between LEO and you. You both must act. In defense of others, to apprehend criminals, LEO have a duty to act. You do not. You have a choice. Not a legal obligation. Perhaps a moral obligation if you choose to take that on.
Randy
kensteele 06-14-2008, 19:18 No. A license or permit to carry a concealed handgun/weapon brings with it no law enforcement authority.
What are your specifics?
sorry i shouldn't have brought up i had specifics. i went back and read some of them and decided it wouldn't be productive to "rehash." :)
an example would be i asked why is it important for the ccw to carry more than 10 rds and i was told to look to the fbi situation in miami or the la bank robbery shootout for my answer.
kensteele 06-14-2008, 19:23 I think ken is talking more about attitude and action vs. authority.
correct.
and yes thanks randy, that's what i am focusing on as well.
Klebanoff 06-14-2008, 19:25 In my state--and every other state of which I am familiar--a CCW license gives its holder ZERO law enforcement authority that he doesn't already possess as a citizen. Yes, a CCW licensee can sometimes make a legal citizen's arrest, but that power comes from being a citizen, not from being licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
While I'm more than willing to be proven wrong, I am 99% sure this is the law in all 50 states.
The last thing our criminal justice system wants is a bunch of minimally trained folks with concealed handguns playing wild west with criminals.
Use your gun to protect yourself, your family, and (in limited contexts) strangers from criminals. To do more is asking for jail or worse.
Gunnut 45/454 06-14-2008, 19:26 steveksux
I have to disagree with most of what you said. That's the way you want to think thats fine! But I disagree! I will never willing give anything to any criminal period! I've been the victim and vow to never be one again! The way I see it if your so stupid , evil, or to lazy to get off your ass and make an honest living thats your problem don't make it mine cause you will not like my answer!
BamaTrooper 06-14-2008, 19:40 This is my take on it:
LEO can be disciplined for NOT taking action. I don't think a civilian can (for the most part). If you knew of an imminent murder and did not report it and it was found out, there might be some sort of repercussion.
To use the shooting up a WalMart example, if an officer is there he has a duty to respond. If he is off duty and does not have all of his gear, he will probably do something but if he didn't, the consequences, for him, might be different.
A CCW in the same situation may be able to leave and call 911 with no real problems.
Let's switch gears- You are in the front, looking through Shotgun News when you hear shooting start in the rear of the store. Assuming you trust your wife to be in WalMart unaccompanied and she and your daughter are in the changing area buying shoes, do you head that way? If you encounter a shooter, do you hide and hope he bypasses you and your family or what?
I always hear the me and mine argument and understand it, to a point. Would you stand and watch someone drown or burn in a car crash? Or would you try to help even if you put yourself at risk. I understand the difference where pulling a gun at a shooting scene can put you at risk of being shot is greater than being seen as trying to drown someone.
In the end, it is a decision you have to make for yourself. All the what ifs do is allow you to say, "Man, what would I do in that situation?"
tjbert47 06-14-2008, 19:48 steveksux
I have to disagree with most of what you said. That's the way you want to think thats fine! But I disagree! I will never willing give anything to any criminal period! I've been the victim and vow to never be one again! The way I see it if your so stupid , evil, or to lazy to get off your ass and make an honest living thats your problem don't make it mine cause you will not like my answer!
My thinking exactly. And well put.
steveksux 06-14-2008, 19:56 steveksux
I have to disagree with most of what you said. That's the way you want to think thats fine! But I disagree! I will never willing give anything to any criminal period! I've been the victim and vow to never be one again! The way I see it if your so stupid , evil, or to lazy to get off your ass and make an honest living thats your problem don't make it mine cause you will not like my answer!I have no problem with that. Its your life, you must weigh the risks and advantages for yourself. The risk the robbery could turn to a murder is very real, and if you're unwilling to take that risk, you are justified. I realize that's not your primary motivation, just adding that as an aside. I don't think we're that far apart on many aspects of this, if you dig beneath the surface.
I am more in your camp when others are being robbed in my group. If I can draw without being seen the risk to myself and others drops dramatically. That's my only hangup, putting others or myself at even greater risk of death. I feel the same about the crooks that you do, and have absolutely no problem taking the same course of action you recommend from a moral or legal perspective. I choose not to engage immediately and automatically on purely tactical grounds. I have no misgivings about killing someone who is threatening others lives unlawfully. That's when you're supposed to use deadly force.
The difference between us is I am not forced to act. I've been in an armed robbery before also. You came away vowing never to let it happen again. I came away vowing to never let my pride put others at even greater risk. The robber left with money, everyone left alive. I had no problem with that outcome. I was hoping the cops WOULDN'T show up and create a hostage situation. (Time lock safe, ended up being a 20 minute robbery until the safe opened). Get the money, get out, the longer we're in contact with the robber, the more danger we're in.
The guy was behind me in line, if MI was shall issue at the time, I might have been armed. As it was, common folk couldn't get permits. When he pulled the shotgun and hopped the counter, his back was to me, would have been contact shots. I would have happily shot him as he went over the counter, shotgun up in the air. Once it was pointed at the cashiers head with his finger on the trigger, if I had missed that first opportunity, who knows...
I have no reluctance to taking a life when its justified. I was active in the Detroit police reserves at the time, it was my job to do so.
If I can guarantee it would go without a hitch, I'm with you. Even if I think the odds are pretty much in my favor. Any armed robber deserves to be shot down like a dog. No argument here. I just disagree when its adviseable to do so. If your scope is narrowly defined to what the criminal deserves, I agree. If you expand the scope of the problem to incorporate the potential consequences to your action to yourself and others its not so clear cut.
Randy
PhoneCop 06-14-2008, 22:43 No, not LEO, but whenever there's someone one man enough to come to the aid of others when some will not, being called a wanna-be LEO is a common and cheap label.
kensteele 06-15-2008, 00:11 i don't understand the coming to ones aid vs leo. let's all pretend we live in wisconsin. what does coming to another's aid, having a ccw or not and being leo have anything even remotely to do with one another.
it doesn't.
does having a ccw mean you have a greater responsibility than the person without ccw and if yes, does that responsibility approach that of leo in some folks mind?
here's my point. some people say they don't want to carry a firearm because they don't want "that responsibility" and they have weighed the risks and they believe they are better off without a firearm. fine. what "responsibilities" are they referring to?
PhoneCop 06-15-2008, 01:08 i don't understand the coming to ones aid vs leo. let's all pretend we live in wisconsin. what does coming to another's aid, having a ccw or not and being leo have anything even remotely to do with one another.
It doesn't. It's just a label thrown once or twice here on GT at any CHLer who believes that having the ability to come to the aid of others means they probably should.
it doesn't.
Glad ya agree.
does having a ccw mean you have a greater responsibility than the person without ccw and if yes, does that responsibility approach that of leo in some folks mind?
No, they have the same responsibility, the armed CHLer has a greater ability to intervene, they have additional options not available to the person not armed with a gun.
here's my point. some people say they don't want to carry a firearm because they don't want "that responsibility" and they have weighed the risks and they believe they are better off without a firearm. fine. what "responsibilities" are they referring to?
Don't know, hope one of them answers that question for you. Truly do.
But, I suspect they don't want to feel as if having the ability to intervene means they must since their conscience tells them they should. Lose the ability and they can avoid the guilt which might come from not acting in the defense of a third person- purely speculation mind you.
Oldskoolfan 06-15-2008, 01:17 Double tap.
Oldskoolfan 06-15-2008, 01:18 This guy gives gunowners a bad name by acting like he is a LEO...
CCW stories: The importance of the CCW badge...
I just wanted to share a day in my life where I had to repeatedly use my CCW badge throughot my day CCWing. I wanted to illustrate its usefulness to me on one of my patrols throughout the city fighting crime.
Well I know it has been awhile since I shared some of my experiences with you all. I also want to tell you about how important the CCW badge is for the average CCWer like me. I have been rather busy with my patrols. The neighborhoods need the protection of a CCWer so that the children can live in peace and harmony. I am fearful for them since there is a War on Terror and I believe I saw someone who may have been Muslim driving down the street. IT sent me into a tactical alert and I now have to be more vigilant, what would the world do without me and the other CCWers who keep Americans safe at night.
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I wanted to write about an experience I had. I was at the local dairy queen eating an ice cream cone and an ice cream cake (I had the girl behind the counter draw a .40 caliber Glock on it) when I suddenly smelled smoke. Now being that I have heightened awareness, due to my intense 10 hours of CCW training, I knew that I was the only one prepared to do anything in an emergency situation regardless of tactical threats. I realized that I had to investigate the source of the smoke.
I ran into the woman’s room and found the source of the smoke. Someone, probably a stupid non-Republican libtard, had put their cigarette into the trash can. It had ignited the paper towels and now the whole room smelled of smoke and the trash was on fire. I looked around and suddenly heard a scream. Some woman who was in the stall walked out and saw me standing over the flaming trashcan and decided to scream. I immediately told her not to worry as I was a CCW holder and then I flashed my CCW badge. She calmed down after she saw the words "Concealed Weapons Permit" on the badge surrounding the state seal. I told her to go out and get the fire extinguisher. She ran out screaming about someone in the women’s room. I decided to check the other stalls and promptly kicked the doors in to make sure they are empty.
After I secured the area I ran out of the bathroom and grabbed a bite of cake. Then I went to the counter and told the guy I needed a fire extinguisher quick. He looked puzzled after I said that. So I screamed at him that I have a Concealed Weapons Permit and that I need the extinguisher so that I can save all of our lives. Once the manager came to the counter she recognized me and handed the extinguisher over so I could go put the fire out. I then proceeded to check the restaurant. I didn’t realize it had filled with smoke so I went out and started sizing up the place. I wanted to put the sheeple libtards on ease so I pulled my CCW badge and clipped it underneath my double chin. A few of the sheeple visibly relaxed. I ordered them to stand outside of the Smokey restaurant and sit on the curb until the fire department gave them an all clear.
I grabbed what was left of my ice cream cake and sundae and took it outside with me. I sat on the curb and waited for my brothers in red and blue to show up. Once they got there I debriefed them on the situation. They were glad to have a responsible CCWer on the scene to take control of the situation. "Well it’s my duty as a citizen and as a CCW holder" is what I told them. This brought tears to their eyes and I think we all realized that were brothers in arms and spirit. I told them it was time to go as I had to finish my patrol of the neighborhood and I left.
I headed down street and went into the local pantry shop for a quick look-see. They know me here because I usually stop and get a donut and slurpee (my afternoon snack) during my patrols on the weekend. I looked around when a gangbanger-thug-democrat caught my eye. I knew he was up to know good and I think he may have been packing heat. I tactically maneuvered myself so that an aisle was directly in between us. I then proceeded to move from condition yellow to condition red. I think he realized I was on to him and I had to make my move. I yelled out "Yo homie," like Tom Cruise in Collateral (which is a very good movie and made me reevaluate a lot of tactical thinking). "Yo homie, CCW permit holder here," I called out all the while flashing my CCW badge. He looked confused and perplexed at me. But I figure he knew what I was and that I had been trained to handle these kinds of situations better than most. I went in and tried to take control of the situation; but he made a mad dash for the door.
What a maroon! I easily anticipated this as I had taken a CCW training course and discussed situations like this one on the internet many a time. I tackled him throwing my 350 lbs. of weight into the perps center of gravity. He fell instantly like a sack of potatoes… umm that reminds me I need some potatoes for dinner. Getting back on track now I had him on the ground and I handcuffed him until my backup could arrive. Once the police arrived I was given my handcuffs back after I flashed my CCW badge and then I was thanked for being so diligent in protecting the community.
I continued on my patrol of the neighborhood watching out for trouble. As I was walking down one of the more major intersections I caught sight of a fellow CCWer. He looked at me and I flashed my CCW badge. He flashed his back which put me at ease. It is nice to know that I am not the only responsible citizen in the community who takes the time to look out for us. We talked on the corner. He watched over my shoulder while I watched over his. This is to prevent bad guys from sneaking up on us. I could see he was in a visible state of code yellow. Earlier in the afternoon he had rescued a little girl and her puppy while engaging numerous gangbangers in an intense gun battle. I told him next time to call me as backup so I could help. A brother CCWer in trouble is something no CCWer likes to hear about. We are the last line of defense between the liberal libtards democrat gangbanger thug kiddie rapist terrorist supporters of the world and decent Christian Americans.
He told me about a potential situation that was developing. He saw a man of Middle Eastern descent over at the hardware store buying piping, nails, screws, and other plumbing supplies. We figure the piping was for pipe bombs and the other things were to act as shrapnel for it. The rest of it was to make it look like the man was going to fix his plumbing. He even got into a truck disguised as a plumber’s truck. These Al Qaeda are getting crafty but us CCWers are on to them. I thanked him for the heads up and we decided we would call a few other CCW guys and have them ready in case we need to take this guy out. Nothing scares a terrorist then a whole bunch of armed men storming the house. We set up commo with our Nextel’s at the ready in case we spotted him. I then told him I was going to get some coffee and a donut from the local donut shop and asked him if he would join me. He agreed and we joked about running into other brothers in arms at the local donut shop. Sure enough there were a few squad cars parked in front and they recognized me. We smiled and then me and my fellow CCWer walked away continuing our patrol after we informed the cops about the terrorist at the hardware store. They said they would look for him and rolled their eyes. I figure they want to let the Feds handle something that big.
We patrolled some of the side streets in the neighborhood and watched out for any signs of our suspect. At one point we thought we smelled ammonia and were going to investigate the source. Luckily it was some woman cleaning the garage. It seemed like a nice quiet day so we decided to listen to our police scanner for any crimes in progress that we would be able to help with. I know cops love having a few CCWers on the scene to back them up because, unfortunately, other cops cannot be everywhere at once.
No action for us CCWers right now. We talked about our CCW training and the experiences that we shared together as CCWers. It’s hard for us to relate with people who are not CCWers. They just don’t understand how we are willing to act as sheepdogs in the face of the wolf. They don’t understand that when the wolf is at your door you can be a sheep or a sheepdog. Non CCWers cannot understand how as CCWers we are the few sheepdogs trying to protect the entire flock. I guess it’s a lonely road for us CCWers. One of the many burdens we live with but one we are willing to bear so we can protect all that is good and be patriots.
We were walking when I saw a perp with whom I had a previous run in with. Luckily he had not seen me so I stopped and hid behind a tree. I watched him as he stood on corner. He was obviously selling dope and it was so early in the evening. My partner and I decided we needed to take immediate action and stop this before it gets any worse.
We decided to take direct tactical action. I pulled my Glock 22 out of its holster and took a position behind a tree to cover my partners advance. He drew a Nighthawk 1911 and left another one on his left hip so that he could have a ..:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />New York reload should he need it. He pulled his neck chain with his CCW badge and let it hang out in the open for any civilians and non-CCWs to see.
I moved on up and called out to the Luke, the thug with whom I had a previous run in, "Luke put your hands up. CCWers, we want to check the situation out and make sure no laws are being broken. Everything will be fine as long as you comply." I re-holstered my Glock 22 and kept my hand on the grip. I was ready to pull should a situation arise. My partner re-holstered his 1911 and kept his hand in his right pocket. Just in case he needed to fire his snubby. The thug didn’t have a chance against two well trained CCWers out on the streets. We approached the perp and took control of the situation. My partner took a cover while I took an interview stance and talked to the perp. I asked him what he was doing and he said he was waiting for the bus. A likely story but I didn’t believe him. Our conversation went something like this…
"Now your not lying to me are you? Cause I have heard many a lie while I was at the gunshop and I can tell if your lying or not."
"No I swear man; I am waiting for the bus. I got to go to work man. Please don’t shoot me Mr. CCWer. I don’t want any trouble with the likes of you."
Since I am a CCWer that makes me a better citizen who is more in touch with the founding fathers than any libtard democrat could ever be. I decided that I would place him under citizen’s arrest. I learned all about it in my CCW training. So I handcuffed him and then called the boys in blue for the arrest. I even read him his rights using the Miranda card I got from the police supply store. (I often shop there as they keep 6XXL 5.11 tactical pants in stock for CCWers.)
Once I had read him his rights I waited for my backup to arrive. When they arrived I placed him in their squad car. They all laughed and told me that I should have been a cop. I told them that it is my duty as a Republican, an American, and a citizen with a CCW permit. It’s an honor to wear a badge whether it is a detective’s shield or a CCW badge we all are working for a better society. They agreed and asked me about my carry method. I told them about my CCW training course and the things that I choose to carry everyday. 6 Glocks, 4 spare Glock 22 magazines, 2 Chris Sebenza Folding knives, 2 Surefire E2E flashlights, an asp baton, a Nextel cell phone with other CCWers on speed dial and 911 listed as "Backup", my police scanner, CCW badge, a couple of tactical pens that are often used by Delta Force, a small notebook, and my tactical Spec Ops wallet. In my wallet I keep a spyderco knife card, my NRA membership, my GOA membership, my Republican Caucus card, and my CCW permit, as well as a driver’s license. These things are what I usually have in my wallet along with some cash and credit cards.
They were mighty impressed with how much gear I could keep on my waist. I told them its one of the advantages of being a big boned guy with a 60 inch waistline. They laughed and sent the rookie to take the man in and book him. I gave them one of my cards and my CCW badge number to have on file for the arresting judge. Both the other officers wanted to go get a cup of java but I told them I had to get back on patrol and finish out my night. They understood and thanked me for being a good citizen. They even suggested getting a second CCW badge so I could put it next to my Glock holster and not scare the sheeple if my gun gets exposed. I laughed and told them I had thought about that but I did not want to give my status as a CCWer away to anyone. I prefer to be stealthy and have my CCW hidden so I have the most tactical flexibility.
Anyways I carried out the rest of my duty shift and patrolled the neighborhood with my partner. He tried to sell me on the virtues of the 1911 but I prefer my Glocks. We discussed some of the potential situations we encountered in our lives as CCWers. We also vowed to train more and to train harder as well. I figure we could go down to the gun shop and practice some draw strokes as well as our malfunction drills. I also volunteered my house for room clearance drills.
After that we decided to part ways to cover more area. We decided that it would be best to cover as much area as possible in our hunt for the terrorist. I walked around for another two hours only stopping twice. Once for a burrito and once for a Big Mac extra value meal. I went home and cleaned my guns while reading Colonial Coopers writings and preparing for my part in the war on terrorism. I often reflect on how much better of an American I am simply for being a Christian, a Republcian, and for CCWing in general.
Col. Cooper RIP
ArtificialGrape 06-15-2008, 01:18 I have a fire extinguisher -- I'm not a firefighter.
I know CPR and first aid -- I'm not a paramedic.
I carry a firearm -- I'm not a LEO.
The fire extinguisher hopefully buys me time until the fire department shows up.
CPR and first aid hopefully buys me time until the paramedics show up.
My gun hopefully buys me time until the police show up.
Analogy borrowed from Masood Ayoob
PhoneCop 06-15-2008, 01:23 but do we always have to provide examples and scenarios of how leo act and respond just to prove a point?
It may just be that the use of force is well vetted in the LEO community, the same laws are almost certainly to be the same that a CHLer will be judged by.
ccw is totally different
not totally, but significantly
and many of us ccw not only don't want to take on the responsibilities of the leo but also don't want to be judged in the same way an leo-type sitation plays out either.
you may not be able to avoid it. justification for use of DF will almost certainly be the same as a starting point. there will almost certainly be other "things" which a CHLer won't and maybe shouldn't be judged the same as LEO (like departmental policies)
is it too much to ask to remind fellow cch who are not leo to concentrate on the civilian scenarios and focus on what is best response for the carrying public?
probably not but those LEO skills and experience are likely to be very, very helpful for the CHLer.
i have specific examples...
like? (undefined hypothetical may be a good place to start, but specifics might be where we should be)
and maybe i'm wrong, perhaps i'm way off base here.
you?
could it be that over time (as nothing happens personally to us but crime and outrageous behaviour continues and grows all around us) we began to evolve our thinking about self-protection to a different level? i dunno.
huh? I dunna kin yer meaning...
i don't understand the coming to ones aid vs leo. let's all pretend we live in wisconsin. what does coming to another's aid, having a ccw or not and being leo have anything even remotely to do with one another.
it doesn't.
does having a ccw mean you have a greater responsibility than the person without ccw and if yes, does that responsibility approach that of leo in some folks mind?
here's my point. some people say they don't want to carry a firearm because they don't want "that responsibility" and they have weighed the risks and they believe they are better off without a firearm. fine. what "responsibilities" are they referring to?
Well Ken, as an instructor for the state I can tell you what some of my students come to deal with and tell me about.
That "responsibility" is the liability of shooting in a justified situation only to miss and hit an innocent bystander. The law does not provide immunity for that. The responsibility for over reacting and being liable for doing something in a panic. It comes down to a lot of people just don't want the potential ramifications of making a mistake with the firearm. These are just a few of the things I hear Ken. Some just can't accept the possibilities.
Minuteman 06-15-2008, 01:46 "You know the score. If your not Cop, your little people" - Blade Runner
waldershrek 06-15-2008, 06:21 Definitely not LEO. In fact you are afforded less protections under the law if you screw up. With that thought in mind I can see why some people decide the risk isn't worth it.
hikerpaddler 06-15-2008, 07:10 Folks who confuse concealed carry with anything similar to law enforcement are scary.
i'm just asking because lately every time a hot topic comes up, leo is used as an example. i personally feel that the ccw is not leo and should not act as leo. i know we have leo participation in this forum and i know some people don't care for leo and feel they are their own leo (i.e. can't depend on the law), but do we always have to provide examples and scenarios of how leo act and respond just to prove a point?
ccw is totally different and many of us ccw not only don't want to take on the responsibilities of the leo but also don't want to be judged in the same way an leo-type sitation plays out either. is it too much to ask to remind fellow cch who are not leo to concentrate on the civilian scenarios and focus on what is best response for the carrying public?
i have specific examples but i thought i would start a new thread so as not to go off-topic in the other relevant threads?
and maybe i'm wrong, perhaps i'm way off base here. could it be that over time (as nothing happens personally to us but crime and outrageous behaviour continues and grows all around us) we began to evolve our thinking about self-protection to a different level? i dunno.
DocwithGlock 06-15-2008, 09:21 Folks who confuse concealed carry with anything similar to law enforcement are scary.
You are as much a law enforcement officer without a CCW as you are with it.
Posse Comitatus is a whole other story....
rcarroll49 06-15-2008, 09:26 Concealed Carry is a Safety Belt for you and your family and thats all it is.
A permit/license to ccw ONLY allows someone to carry a concealed firearm in certain areas within the State. Other laws of your State address what you can and cannot do while carrying that weapon.
but see, this is a good point. every citizen is responsible, ccw and non-ccw alike. are there additional responsibilities for the ccw?
keep in mind that we are all human and apparently all humans care for other lives being lost. if you don't agree with that, that's fine but you can't make the distinction that ccw totally care for loss of life and non-ccw can go either way.
As a CCW/CPL holder (depending on state) you have no Legal "Duty to Act" which would provide for neglicence, abandonment, or leave you open to being sued for failure to act. In Michigan my CPL came with no duty to act. Michigan in adopting the Castle Doctrine into law gives me the right to act. There is a big difference between the right to act and the duty to act.
Also the above is adressing a Legal Duty to Act, not a Moral duty to act.
Since I do not have a legal duty to act, but I have the right to act, I have to utilize common sense, my skills, training, and judgement to decide if I feel that I have a Moral duty to act.
If Grandma is getting her but kicked by a couple of punks in the Wallmart parking lot am I going to walk by and not help, heck no. To me I have a Moral duty to act. 911 first, but if verbally calling for help doesn't work, I have pepper spray available, going to lethal force would be a big step. I'm not looking at arresting the perp, I'm looking at stopping Grandma from getting hurt.
Do CCW/CPL's often talk about the use of force continum like LEO's, yep we do. The use of force continum was developed to help adress the grey area between doing nothing and pulling the trigger. Unfortunately the only other groups of people that regularly carry firearms are LEO's and badguys. I'd rather model my standard operating procedures after a cop then a bad guy.
My CPL didn't come with a badge and I know that, understand that, support that, and embrace that. Anyone that wants a CPL just to save the world, shouldn't have their CPL in the first place.
Everyone in Michigan has felony citizens arrest power, but I'm not going to be playing Barney Fife anytime soon.
Jason607 06-15-2008, 10:53 I LEO's job is the enforce the law, that is it. It is not their job to "protect" you or anyone else, so keep that in mind. So, as a civilian, it is not my buisness to enforce the law, and although it may not be a "duty" to protect myself or anyone else, it doesn't mean I can't.
I have a fire extinguisher -- I'm not a firefighter.
I know CPR and first aid -- I'm not a paramedic.
I carry a firearm -- I'm not a LEO.
The fire extinguisher hopefully buys me time until the fire department shows up.
CPR and first aid hopefully buys me time until the paramedics show up.
My gun hopefully buys me time until the police show up.
Analogy borrowed from Masood Ayoob
+1 People who watch other people get assulted/robbed and do nothing are lowlifes.
Folks who confuse concealed carry with anything similar to law enforcement are scary.
Yes it is, I had a couple run in's with a few vigilante types, one which I had to use a knife on when I was a teenager because he tried to do a citizen's arrest on me for kerfew violation. I was 18, but I look really young. No I didn't hurt him but I'll say his leather jacket was runined and I am sure his underwear was too.
As a CCW/CPL holder (depending on state) you have no Legal "Duty to Act" which would provide for neglicence, abandonment, or leave you open to being sued for failure to act. In Michigan my CPL came with no duty to act. Michigan in adopting the Castle Doctrine into law gives me the right to act. There is a big difference between the right to act and the duty to act.
Also the above is adressing a Legal Duty to Act, not a Moral duty to act.
Since I do not have a legal duty to act, but I have the right to act, I have to utilize common sense, my skills, training, and judgement to decide if I feel that I have a Moral duty to act.
If Grandma is getting her but kicked by a couple of punks in the Wallmart parking lot am I going to walk by and not help, heck no. To me I have a Moral duty to act. 911 first, but if verbally calling for help doesn't work, I have pepper spray available, going to lethal force would be a big step. I'm not looking at arresting the perp, I'm looking at stopping Grandma from getting hurt.
Do CCW/CPL's often talk about the use of force continum like LEO's, yep we do. The use of force continum was developed to help adress the grey area between doing nothing and pulling the trigger. Unfortunately the only other groups of people that regularly carry firearms are LEO's and badguys. I'd rather model my standard operating procedures after a cop then a bad guy.
My CPL didn't come with a badge and I know that, understand that, support that, and embrace that. Anyone that wants a CPL just to save the world, shouldn't have their CPL in the first place.
Everyone in Michigan has felony citizens arrest power, but I'm not going to be playing Barney Fife anytime soon.
Great post!!! On the part I put in bold, there are many here on GT that would allow grandma to be beaten to death and hide behind the "I'm not a cop, and liability, blah, blah, blah...." Those little boys are cowards, not men. [/B] I mean really, whatever happened to being a man and taking a stand on what is right??? Kind of makes be think of the Brad Paisley song "Thank God I'm a Guy"
passive101 06-15-2008, 11:15 My permit didn't make me an LEO and neither did my first firearm.
My permit is ot protect me and my loved ones. Maybe a friend. That's where it ends unless there is some bizarre circumstance where I help a stranger, but stopping a rape, etc does NOT make me an LEO.
steveksux 06-15-2008, 11:24 Would it hurt to keep the discussion on a factual basis rather than wild exaggerations?
I'd be willing to bet there's not a single GT member who would do nothing while Grandma got beat up. There's a lot of discussion over what the proper response is, whether calling 911 is reasonable in certain circumstance, such as should you have your wife and kids with you, rather than physically intervening yourself and placing them at risk.
The first cops that arrived at Columbine stood by outside and waited for backup because they weren't sure they could handle the situation by themselves. This is common in many situations. Yet CCW'rs are cowards for not intervening by themselves when they may be totally on their own?
It seems some wish to require MORE of CCWrs than is required of LEO, with less protections (legal regarding liability, negligence, the odds of getting charged with a crime should they make a mistake or overreact; as well as physical, such as body armor, training, radio to at least get backup on the way) etc.
Part of the justification for carrying is the police have no obligation to protect you personally, isn't that how the argument goes? So you have a greater responsibility to intervene and protect someone getting mugged?
If cops don't feel they can tactically handle the situation, they wait for backup. If they don't weigh in when they're over their head, neither should a CCW be considered a coward for doing likewise. A gun is not a magic talisman of invincibility.
My instinct would be to jump in and help. I would hope my common sense overrides that when conditions are such that I'm beyond my abiities, or when I can't be sure things are not as clear as they appear (undercover cop holding someone at gunpoint, not holding them up).
Its also quite definitely not my job to be the defender of the innocent. They have the ability to get a ccw just like I did. As Clint Eastwood said "Well, he shouldda armed himself". If someone makes the mistake of being negligent in their own defense, they should be grateful if anyone chooses to help. They have no right to expect others to do what they themselves are unwilling to do.
They chose to be sheep, knowing full well that Darwin tends to thin the herd on occasion.
I applaud anyone who does step in and help. I refuse to assume anyone who does not or whatever reason is a coward. I feel that is uncalled for. A whole lot of folks with ccw don't bother practxicing, training, etc. They carry for when it is a very very last resort. Not to put on a cape and a ccw badge and protect the public, and they are woefully unprepared to do the latter. Its good that they realize that upfront. That doesn't make them cowards.
Randy
uhlawpup 06-15-2008, 11:42 Randy, I think what it boils down to is this.
A lot of folks, for whatever reason, need something to make them feel "special." A few of those who get permits to carry concealed weapons, those without a grasp on "real life," may, in their own mind, think the permit in some way makes them special, or better, or validates them in some way. And, since we are taught from a very early age that police officers are heroes, we look to the similarities (they carry guns, now I can carry a gun, too!) to make us heroes in our own minds and the minds of others, if, that is, we are numbered among that misguided few.
The sad thing is that those folks, when the situation arises, may wind up using deadly force in an inappropriate way, and have to suffer the consequences for it. I see it all too often in the media accounts and court records.
Nothing we say on a forum like this will persuade those misguided folks otherwise. They will still consider themselves, "super citizens" or "sheepdogs" or "heroes" or whatever else makes them feel important in their own minds, or gives them a feeling of belonging to an elite group of people.
Luckily, there is a lot of talk on here that never rises beyond posturing, and we can thank God for that. For those who would be tempted to act in an inappropriate manner, we can only pray for them, pray that they be given the wisdom to realize the responsibility that comes from carrying a weapon, and the difference between sworn law enforcement officers and vigilantes.
We are a government of laws, not of personalities. Let's hope it stays that way.
Maybe someone could come up with a uniform that CHL holders would wear. Really cool, tac pants like 5 11's
Glock hat of course and a camera vest
Side zip tac boots....12 " and black
and a Maxipack
open for suggestions here.....
Sewn on cloth badge
:rofl: LMAO
Sewn on cloth badge is sewn to the hidden but "deployable" cloth tab...
If you get the Tacti-kewl delux vest...
steveksux 06-15-2008, 12:40 For the record, those that favor intervening don't deserve to be ridiculed either, its a great honorable response that should generally be applauded.
My only problem is with those who insist anyone who doesn't intervene in the manner they deem appropriate must therefore be a coward....
Randy
kensteele 06-15-2008, 13:00 ....there are many here on GT that would allow grandma to be beaten to death ...."
this is exactly what i am talking about. :wavey:
ccw and non-ccw people intervene to help (or not) other citizens in need. leo stop criminal activity and don't allow crimes to be committed.
jason i firmly believe that if you did not have a permit and a firearm, your thoughts would be different about "allowing" crime to happen and your ability to stop crime. if you want to be a crimefighter, why not get into leo?
as a ccw, i cannot stop, prevent, or affect crime. all i can do is protect myself (and others) against unlawful acts that may lead to death or grave bodily harm. it's not my job to affect the crime statistics, to apprehend criminals, or to in any way form or fashion affect criminal attitudes. i don't make criminals think twice, i don't teach them lessons, and i don't get joy from seeing them thwarted....i mean, how can i when my gun stays holstered and concealed until it comes out to fire in self-defense. nobody knows (i don't show off my permit and i don't open carry and i don't tell other people i'm "packing").....i'm just another ordinary average citizen 24/7, 365 days hopefully for life.
PhoneCop 06-15-2008, 13:09 Randy, I think what it boils down to is this.
A lot of folks, for whatever reason, need something to make them feel "special." A few of those who get permits to carry concealed weapons, those without a grasp on "real life," may, in their own mind, think the permit in some way makes them special, or better, or validates them in some way. And, since we are taught from a very early age that police officers are heroes, we look to the similarities (they carry guns, now I can carry a gun, too!) to make us heroes in our own minds and the minds of others, if, that is, we are numbered among that misguided few.
This desire to be validated is universal. I believe that it was opined once that the law and medicine attract the biggest egos, those wanting to be the heroes who save the world. Then one must consider how easy it is to attribute that same desire to any number of professions- journalists, policemen, politicans... many.
Some study until they have PhD or MDs and make great discoveries, cures for disease. Some become police officers, servicemen, firemen, some become elite members of these units. Some become paramedics. Others become lawyers.
The best become just husband and dad, raise a new generation as law abiding courteous citizens.
It is easy for someone in one profession to criticize the unknown values which lead someone to seek another profession. Far too easy to criticize the perceived values of another.
Strawman arguments are easy:
MDs love to lord their position in society while committing sometimes unconscionable acts. Everyone loves to blast attorneys, until you need one. Paramedics are wanna-be doctors, until they are the first to arrive and in time to an arterial bleed. Damn the man and his ticket book, until he is the one who happens in on the situation where he can arrest the burglar stealing your guns in the act.
And those laughable fools who want their CHLs... aren't they just the most deserving of our derision, until it's your sister whose life one saves when her psycho ex-boyfriend attackers her with a knife in a Walmart.
I'll accept the ones who wish to carry so they can be a hero should an opportunity arise. At least I know their intentions are good. I am unable at the moment to dredge up an example of when a well-intentioned citizen fired and injured an innocent. May have happened, but the numbers are so very few that an example does not leap to mind. I can recall a few, apparently frightened souls, who shot when they shouldn't. The majority of situations are those that one could have labeled and hero-wannabe's actually becoming heroes.
God forbid that we limit the opportunity of those same people from actually becoming a hero... to the detriment of others.
The sad thing is that those folks, when the situation arises, may wind up using deadly force in an inappropriate way, and have to suffer the consequences for it. I see it all too often in the media accounts and court records.
Seems this more a fault of education and training, not the desire to do what's right. We don't want to live in a society that squashes the desire to do what is right or place it only in the hands of "professionals." Fear of such society is why the good states have indemnified the Good Samaritan.
Nothing we say on a forum like this will persuade those misguided folks otherwise. They will still consider themselves, "super citizens" or "sheepdogs" or "heroes" or whatever else makes them feel important in their own minds, or gives them a feeling of belonging to an elite group of people.
Nor should we sneer at these hero-wannabe's. Though I hope that what we post may encourage them to get the training to be make the best choices and employ themselves within the law.
Luckily, there is a lot of talk on here that never rises beyond posturing, and we can thank God for that. For those who would be tempted to act in an inappropriate manner, we can only pray for them, pray that they be given the wisdom to realize the responsibility that comes from carrying a weapon, and the difference between sworn law enforcement officers and vigilantes.
We are a government of laws, not of personalities. Let's hope it stays that way.
Agreed.
We will always be a nation comprised of people.
uhlawpup 06-15-2008, 13:13 I meant to sound derisive only of those who would self-appoint themselves as our saviors and protectors because they have permits to carry concealed handguns. Those are the ones I fear most, and the ones who do the most damage to our society and our cause of preserving the right to keep and bear arms in our own defense.
I meant to sound derisive only of those who would self-appoint themselves as our saviors and protectors because they have permits to carry concealed handguns. Those are the ones I fear most, and the ones who do the most damage to our society and our cause of preserving the right to keep and bear arms in our own defense.
Seems to me to be an unfounded or irrational fear, unless of course, you have some cited examples...
:whistling:
"CHL holders are not LEOs, though it is true that some LEOs are CHL holders. You gain no powers of arrest with your CHL. State by state you have citizens arrest powers. Those are not just for CHL holders".
This is an interesting thread. I believe that all gun people should look to law enforcement for expertise, and should be able to vicariously experience the good and the bad of law enforcement actions to avoid making mistakes in the field. Training for CHL holders also should be on a par with LE training at the expert level.
There are many tactical similarities between LEOs and CHL holders.
There are also many differences.
As a citizen you've got all the statutory powers of arrest you need for violent crimes committed in your presence. As citizens, you may at your discretion act even when you are not personally the victim of a crime. The important matter is that you have to be right or you're subject to arrest and criminal prosecution. If you use a gun to effect an arrest, you had sure better know what you're doing and be right.
An on duty uniformed leo is subject to many of the same sanctions.
On the subject of badges, "If you need one, carry one."
I don't need it, so I don't carry it. I also never open carry, for fear of arrest and/or of unwanted attention. But hey, that's me.
A friend wrote:
As a ccw, i cannot stop, prevent, or affect crime.
I can do those things. On a case by case basis, I might. When and why I do that are up to me, but my decisions must meet strict legal standards.
it's not my job to affect the crime statistics, to apprehend criminals, or to in any way form or fashion affect criminal attitudes.
I affect criminal attitudes. Criminals should know I'm out there and be afraid of running into me. I am a violent criminal's worst nightmare. Quite often I've seen people I suspect as criminals see me and decide not to commit a crime right then while I am there. That's what I want to have happen. I want criminals to see me, and to be afraid to commit crimes for fear that I will stop them.
i don't make criminals think twice, i don't teach them lessons, and i don't get joy from seeing them thwarted.
I do all those things. I especially feel happy if a dope fiend convict is arrested and given a prison term.
I'm just another ordinary average citizen 24/7, 365 days hopefully for life.
I'm a special citizen. I know that's controversial, but I also know that I have special knowledge of the law, of medicine, and of firearms and tactics, and have hardened my heart against criminals.
I have special and unique experiences, as a soldier and as a policeman. I'm equipped to deal death to violent criminals, and disciplined to do so only under very specific legal standards and guidelines.
No. I'm definitely not an ordinary citizen. I have full respect for ordinary citizens.
I have more power than an ordinary citizen, but my level of responsibility is also much greater.
I accept that fact.
Gunnut 45/454 06-15-2008, 14:37 uhlawpup
From what you've posted you expect people just to stand by while crimes are taking place? So you say if you see a woman being stabbed to death right in front of your eye's to do nothing? I don't seek out these situations, I avoid these thing at all costs. But I'll say this if I ever find myself faced with this type of situation I will do everthing I can to stop it!! I'm sorry I'm human! Unlike the mass of liberals in this country who believe it's perfectly O.K to let criminals have a free pass to do what ever they want, I don't feel that way!
Like I've said in my other post I've been there (Victim) And I know all to well what I can do-the damage that can be done by a firearm! I don't take my carry one of litely at all!!
Randy, I think what it boils down to is this.
A lot of folks, for whatever reason, need something to make them feel "special." A few of those who get permits to carry concealed weapons, those without a grasp on "real life," may, in their own mind, think the permit in some way makes them special, or better, or validates them in some way. And, since we are taught from a very early age that police officers are heroes, we look to the similarities (they carry guns, now I can carry a gun, too!) to make us heroes in our own minds and the minds of others, if, that is, we are numbered among that misguided few.
The sad thing is that those folks, when the situation arises, may wind up using deadly force in an inappropriate way, and have to suffer the consequences for it. I see it all too often in the media accounts and court records.
Nothing we say on a forum like this will persuade those misguided folks otherwise. They will still consider themselves, "super citizens" or "sheepdogs" or "heroes" or whatever else makes them feel important in their own minds, or gives them a feeling of belonging to an elite group of people.
Luckily, there is a lot of talk on here that never rises beyond posturing, and we can thank God for that. For those who would be tempted to act in an inappropriate manner, we can only pray for them, pray that they be given the wisdom to realize the responsibility that comes from carrying a weapon, and the difference between sworn law enforcement officers and vigilantes.
We are a government of laws, not of personalities. Let's hope it stays that way.I started reading at the end of this thread, read one reply to this and decided I really needed to read all of it before going any further.
I agree with you, counselor.
Now, off to continue reading....
PhoneCop 06-15-2008, 15:09 uhlawpup
From what you've posted you expect people just to stand by while crimes are taking place? So you say if you see a woman being stabbed to death right in front of your eye's to do nothing? I don't seek out these situations, I avoid these thing at all costs. But I'll say this if I ever find myself faced with this type of situation I will do everything I can to stop it!! I'm sorry I'm human! Unlike the mass of liberals in this country who believe it's perfectly O.K to let criminals have a free pass to do what ever they want, I don't feel that way!
Like I've said in my other post I've been there (Victim) And I know all to well what I can do-the damage that can be done by a firearm! I don't take my carry one of lightly at all!!
Don't be sorry, don't apologize. America is better having you walk her streets, Gunnut 45/454.
kensteele 06-15-2008, 15:54 "CHL holders are not LEOs, though it is true that some LEOs are CHL holders. You gain no powers of arrest with your CHL. State by state you have citizens arrest powers. Those are not just for CHL holders".
This is an interesting thread. I believe that all gun people should look to law enforcement for expertise, and should be able to vicariously experience the good and the bad of law enforcement actions to avoid making mistakes in the field. Training for CHL holders also should be on a par with LE training at the expert level.
There are many tactical similarities between LEOs and CHL holders.
There are also many differences.
As a citizen you've got all the statutory powers of arrest you need for violent crimes committed in your presence. As citizens, you may at your discretion act even when you are not personally the victim of a crime. The important matter is that you have to be right or you're subject to arrest and criminal prosecution. If you use a gun to effect an arrest, you had sure better know what you're doing and be right.
An on duty uniformed leo is subject to many of the same sanctions.
On the subject of badges, "If you need one, carry one."
I don't need it, so I don't carry it. I also never open carry, for fear of arrest and/or of unwanted attention. But hey, that's me.
A friend wrote:
As a ccw, i cannot stop, prevent, or affect crime.
I can do those things. On a case by case basis, I might. When and why I do that are up to me, but my decisions must meet strict legal standards.
it's not my job to affect the crime statistics, to apprehend criminals, or to in any way form or fashion affect criminal attitudes.
I affect criminal attitudes. Criminals should know I'm out there and be afraid of running into me. I am a violent criminal's worst nightmare. Quite often I've seen people I suspect as criminals see me and decide not to commit a crime right then while I am there. That's what I want to have happen. I want criminals to see me, and to be afraid to commit crimes for fear that I will stop them.
i don't make criminals think twice, i don't teach them lessons, and i don't get joy from seeing them thwarted.
I do all those things. I especially feel happy if a dope fiend convict is arrested and given a prison term.
I'm just another ordinary average citizen 24/7, 365 days hopefully for life.
I'm a special citizen. I know that's controversial, but I also know that I have special knowledge of the law, of medicine, and of firearms and tactics, and have hardened my heart against criminals.
I have special and unique experiences, as a soldier and as a policeman. I'm equipped to deal death to violent criminals, and disciplined to do so only under very specific legal standards and guidelines.
No. I'm definitely not an ordinary citizen. I have full respect for ordinary citizens.
I have more power than an ordinary citizen, but my level of responsibility is also much greater.
I accept that fact.
and i don't doubt that you are. you just might be that person. all i am saying is ccw didn't make you that person. you don't just go down to the office, get a permit, and emerge with new found powers and authority....as if you've just been sworn in for something. perhaps you were already that kind of person.
some people here...they are one person before they have a permit and a gun. after they get a permit and a gun, they become another different person. and it changes whether they are carrying or not. and i'm not talking about the aspects that relate directly to being armed. i'm talking about attitude.
if you instill fear in criminals who see you, is it because of your "hidden" gun?
please don't misunderstand what i wrote a bit out of context. i'm not out to try to accomplish those things against crime and the criminal, if it happens great, but i don't seek to do justice, directly participate in uncovering, evaluating, and prosecuting criminal activities on the street that is otherwise reserved for the leo.
maybe i'm not going about this the right away, that's why i am asking. sure it's apparent that there are a few who cross the line....but as a whole, other than increasing your awareness/safety and coming to the realisation that i might have to shoot, what else comes with ccw?
AZ-Robert 06-15-2008, 16:02 :mallninja:
Wuh hell.........ahwls ya neeeed is ya cee-cee-dubya baaaaadge.......:rofl:
Seriously, we look to Law Enforcement and those who train them for tactics, procedures, what works best under stress, etc.
A concealed carry permit shouln't make anyone think they have any kind of "duty" in society to anyone but themselves.
Yes, normally, logically, an armed society should have WAY less crime, and usually does, but self-defense and firearms is a subject of last resort.
Who a well-trained, experienced citizen decides to "help" is up to them.........but many LEOs and ex-LEOs will tell you to STEER CLEAR, because of the letigious times we live in, where every scumbag (and the dead scumbag's family) seems to have so many rights..........cops, on the job, get sued all the time.....for doing the right thing! At least they have the backing of their department, and it's lawyers.........
Most well-respected trainers will tell you to FORGET you ever heard the term "citizens arrest".
A friend asked:
if you instill fear in criminals who see you, is it because of your "hidden" gun?
In part, yes. Criminals are sociopathic, so they have little respect for anything other than violence. A criminal fears a gun carried by a law abiding citizen. They're also quite streetwise and situationally aware.
Please don't misunderstand, or take what I wrote out of context.
I'm not out to seek to act in opposition to crime or criminals. If it happens great.** I don't seek to ensure justice, or to directly participate in uncovering and prosecuting criminal activities on the street. That's law enforcement work.
I think I understand your expressed sentiment. What you wrote describes your perception of the world. I have no quarrel with you. I'm not a behavioral scientist, but Col. Dave Grossman is. I'm a student of his work. Many ideas I've seen over the years about the spirit of a warrior are explained in his book. Follow this link for more information:
http://www.killology.com/book_oncombat_summary.htm
** If it happens, the level of mental preparation you bring to the fight will likely determine the outcome.
Another friend wrote:
Other than increasing your awareness and safety and coming to the realisation that I might decide to fire on a criminal, what else comes with ccw?
It's about you. What you know, what you believe, and what you are capable of.
What are you prepared to do? How well disciplined are you?
An engineer has a torque wrench in his tool box, quite likely. That tool is certainly not what makes him an engineer.
Buki192327 06-15-2008, 17:55 Not if all you have is a CCW. :upeyes:
uhlawpup 06-15-2008, 18:08 uhlawpup
From what you've posted you expect people just to stand by while crimes are taking place? So you say if you see a woman being stabbed to death right in front of your eye's to do nothing? I don't seek out these situations, I avoid these thing at all costs. But I'll say this if I ever find myself faced with this type of situation I will do everthing I can to stop it!! I'm sorry I'm human! Unlike the mass of liberals in this country who believe it's perfectly O.K to let criminals have a free pass to do what ever they want, I don't feel that way!
Like I've said in my other post I've been there (Victim) And I know all to well what I can do-the damage that can be done by a firearm! I don't take my carry one of litely at all!!
Don't read between the lines of my posts, Gunnut. There's nothing there. I mean what I wrote. Nothing more. Nothing less.
No, not LEO, but whenever there's someone one man enough to come to the aid of others when some will not, being called a wanna-be LEO is a common and cheap label.
I agree!
I wish there were one or two armed "wanna-be's" here on this night:
:crying::angel:
Man kills baby and is shot to death by police
(06-15) 12:12 PDT -- A young Turlock man parked a pickup truck on a dark country road outside his Central Valley city Saturday night, removed a baby boy from a car seat and then viciously beat the child in the street, fighting off passersby who tried to stop him until he was fatally shot by a police officer whose helicopter landed in a nearby pasture, police said today.
The 27-year-old suspect died immediately where he fell. The child, who according to police appeared to be 12 to 24 months old, was rushed to a hospital but was soon pronounced dead as well.
Police officials declined to identify the man this morning and said they did not yet know who the child was - or what his relationship was to his attacker. No information was immediately available about the baby's mother.
The suspect "had tunnel vision," said Stanislaus County sheriff's deputy Royjindar Singh, a department spokesman. "As people tried to intervene, to tackle him, he just went back to what he was doing. Anything and everything he could do to the baby, that's what he was doing."
Singh said investigators were working hard to answer a series of questions about the shocking case, including why the suspect stopped in the roadway, where he was coming from and where he was going. Singh said he did not know whether the suspect was under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
The beating and subsequent shooting happened near a dairy farm along two-lane West Bradbury Road, between South BlakerRoad and South Central Avenue, in an unincorporated area about 10 miles west of downtown Turlock and 20 miles south of Modesto. The rural road, which extends straight west from Highway 99, has no lights.
Singh said an elderly couple driving along West Bradbury Road just after 10 p.m. made the first 911 call to police, reporting that the suspect's Toyota pickup truck was parked facing west in the eastbound lane. According to the caller, the suspect was brutally beating the baby boy behind the truck.
The couple had poor cell phone reception and did not give a precise address, delaying the response by a few minutes, Singh said. But soon, he said, other witnesses called as well - some of the witnesses began trying to halt the attack on the baby, who was punched and kicked and stomped on the pavement.
"One tried to intervene and the suspect pushed him off and continued assaulting the baby," Singh said.
By 10:13 p.m., a dispatcher had confirmed the correct location and broadcast it, Singh said, but it was so remote that the first officers to arrive were aboard a sheriff's department helicopter that had been patrolling over Turlock. The pilot, a sheriff's deputy, and the tactical flight officer, a Modesto city police officer landed in a cow pasture just off the roadway at about 10:19 p.m., Singh said.
He said the flight officer then ran about 20 yards toward the suspect and, while standing behind the pasture's fence, ordered him to stop beating the child, who was on the ground.
"He refuses to comply with the orders and the officer fires," Singh said, "resulting in the death of the suspect."
Firefighters from a nearby station arrived a few minutes later and tried desperately to resuscitate the child before the baby was rushed to Emanuel Medical Center in Turlock. Despite all this, Singh said that the baby died before arrival at the hospital.
By the time the ambulance left, Singh said, nearly a dozen people had witnessed some part of the incident, with at least two trying to physically stop the suspect.
"The two officers on the helicopter, they were pretty shook up about it," Singh said. "We have to kind of expect this in our line of work. But for people who were just driving home, they weren't prepared for this. They're watching a helpless baby die in front of them and they're trying to intervene, but all their efforts aren't doing anything."
E-mail Demian Bulwa at dbulwa@sfchronicle.com
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/15/BAJT119MI5.DTL&tsp=1
The following is from the Ohio CHL booklet by the Ohio Attorney General that is given to everyone who takes the class to qualify for Ohio CHL. While I hope that if I ever need help a CHL holder is close by and volunteers their help, you need to realize that the law does not encourage it. I would expect something like this is in about every states booklet:
WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking matters into their
own hands and acting as law enforcement agents. This is true even if
the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting someone
or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a
person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects
the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person
did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you may
be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun to
interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer will
not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types of
situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police.
BamaTrooper 06-15-2008, 21:03 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/15/BAJT119MI5.DTL&tsp=1
In case any of you who "protect me and mine" wanted to have another incident to think about. Here it is-
(06-15) 16:56 PDT -- A man... deleted the story as I had reposted it.
...their efforts aren't doing anything."
IF you had tried to stop him by restraining him or just kicking his ass, would you have shot him?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/15/BAJT119MI5.DTL&tsp=1
In case any of you who "protect me and mine" wanted to have another incident to think about. Here it is-
(06-15) 16:56 PDT -- A man... deleted the story as I had reposted it.
...their efforts aren't doing anything."
IF you had tried to stop him by restraining him or just kicking his ass, would you have shot him?
Not if I could have stopped him physically. If he was one of them steroid freaks or I didn't think I could "take him" before he killed the baby, for whatever other reason, I'd a dropped him like a rock in his tracks with my gun.
Alot of the technical details aren't in the story so there's some playing it by ear here. Bottom line is I would have died trying to save that baby.
kensteele 06-15-2008, 21:42 ^it's a great story because it has a totally innocent victim and each and every one of us (armed with ccw or not) would do everything in our power to help that defenseless baby. nevermind our morals or duty to help, etc. we will all act. doesn't matter if you might get charged, who deserved what, it's apparent. unlike the videos of people watching as some getting killed, people feel helpless. even the helpless people tried to help this baby.
i think i mentioned it awhile back, you just know when to act sometimes. if that baby was 25 years older and both had knives and one was getting his throat cut, i personally maybe wouldn't be so quick to act depending on the circumstances. if a husband was beating his wife in public, i would be more concerned....but certainly not at the level of a grown man and two year old getting killed.
i'm sure you can't find anyone on the planet who would say they wouldn't intervene and just standby while a baby is killed, so once again, the ccw is nothing special. good reason to have a firearm nearby.
denied thanks for posting that piece from ohio, that exactly part of what i was looking for. i'm curious what part(s) anyone disagree with.
Jason607 06-15-2008, 23:36 this is exactly what i am talking about. :wavey:
ccw and non-ccw people intervene to help (or not) other citizens in need. leo stop criminal activity and don't allow crimes to be committed.
jason i firmly believe that if you did not have a permit and a firearm, your thoughts would be different about "allowing" crime to happen and your ability to stop crime. if you want to be a crimefighter, why not get into leo?
as a ccw, i cannot stop, prevent, or affect crime. all i can do is protect myself (and others) against unlawful acts that may lead to death or grave bodily harm. it's not my job to affect the crime statistics, to apprehend criminals, or to in any way form or fashion affect criminal attitudes. i don't make criminals think twice, i don't teach them lessons, and i don't get joy from seeing them thwarted....i mean, how can i when my gun stays holstered and concealed until it comes out to fire in self-defense. nobody knows (i don't show off my permit and i don't open carry and i don't tell other people i'm "packing").....i'm just another ordinary average citizen 24/7, 365 days hopefully for life.
I don't think my permit has much to do with it. Gun or no gun, it's just in my nature. I just can not stand back and let someone victimize someone. I've been a victim before, it sucks, and I'm not a victim anymore and I hate those who "bully" others. I'd rather die than allow garbage to infect the good people (or animals for that matter) and know there is something I could do about it. It just makes me sick when I see videos and even hear about where some piece of garbage attacks an innocent person or cop and people just do nothing. How do they live with themselves? I have no fear of death, pretty sure I know where I'm going when I die, and if I die doing a good dead, it will just earn me brownie points on the way up, lol. I know I am no officer of the law, and I know I am only one man, I can only do so much, I know I can't change the world, but I can do my part. I think if everyone did their part, this world would be a much better place.
I have thought of a career in law enforcement, I have some buddies in it, and they have suggested for me to try out and they would vouch for me, but I don't know, I don't like drama.
uhlawpup 06-16-2008, 07:30 I think Ken and Jason have hit the nail on the head.
A permit to carry a concealed firearm has absolutely nothing to do with how we would react in the situations mentioned. I'd like to think we all would do what we could in a given situation to protect the innocent from harm.
The problem, and the main tenor of this thread, is that some folks mistakenly think having a permit to carry a concealed weapon confers some sort of quasi-law-enforcement-officer status on the bearer.
It doesn't. And thinking it does, consciously or subconsciously, is what brings about the danger, both to the bearer and those he or she may attempt to protect. Many folks get their ideas about what a police officer does from television and the movies. Unfortunately, what they see is usually far from the truth, and acting like the actors they see protraying officers of the law may bring about grim results, indeed.
Bill Lumberg 06-16-2008, 07:57 +1000. Spot-on!
I think Ken and Jason have hit the nail on the head.
A permit to carry a concealed firearm has absolutely nothing to do with how we would react in the situations mentioned. I'd like to think we all would do what we could in a given situation to protect the innocent from harm.
The problem, and the main tenor of this thread, is that some folks mistakenly think having a permit to carry a concealed weapon confers some sort of quasi-law-enforcement-officer status on the bearer.
It doesn't. And thinking it does, consciously or subconsciously, is what brings about the danger, both to the bearer and those he or she may attempt to protect. Many folks get their ideas about what a police officer does from television and the movies. Unfortunately, what they see is usually far from the truth, and acting like the actors they see protraying officers of the law may bring about grim results, indeed.
A permit to carry a concealed firearm has absolutely nothing to do with how we would react in the situations mentioned.
"It doesn't!?" Are you willing to go up against a murderer with no gun? Note that the baby killer continued his attack and killed the baby, despite the presence and intercession of bystanders. As near as I can tell, he was pulled off, then allowed to walk back and continue his attack. Noo, no no. Only a man armed and deeply committed to stopping a crime like that has a chance of doing so. He might be armed with a tree branch or a rock but he needs a deadly weapon of his own. I know of cases where unarmed citizens were murdered stopping to investigate a violent attack.
I'd like to think we all would do what we could in a given situation to protect the innocent from harm.
A whole lot of people wouldn't. I've seen it in New York City, especially on the subway. Folks'll stand right there and watch a terrorizing intimidation of a citizen by a wolf pack of thugs, a robbery or a murder, because they're socialized that they're powerless because they're unarmed. I've seen people not even call 9/11 despite the victim begging them to do so, rolling on the sidewalk fighting a robber.
Concealed-carrying citizens and security guards are valuable segments of society. Concealed carriers and security guards who confuse themsevles with LE or try to appear as though they are LE are consistently problematic.
But then Uhlawpup, putting this into perspective, by the numbers acrss the nation it doesn't appear that there is a big problem, or really any problem, with permit holders stepping out of bounds and conducting themselves in that manner. I just don't see it happening. That's why CC has been so successful in gaining broad acceptance across the nation because there hasn't been any real (or perceived) problems with it.
99.9% of holders recognize (and conduct themselves as though) they are not LEO.
uhlawpup 06-16-2008, 10:53 You're absolutely right, Sarge. Virtually all of the permit holders are mature enough to act responsibly where weapons are concerned.
I guess my main worry is what I see at the range, at gun shows, and in certain discussion threads. It's not so much what is said, but perhaps how it is said. There seems to be a certain lack of restraint, good judgment, even maturity in some of the posts and overheard conversations
Of course, all such posts are welcome here, and they should be, and conversations should not be regulated at all. I just hope hope when I hear the "chest thumping," it is tongue in cheek. If it isn't, I'm sure there will be some sadness for some folks further down the line.
But that's just my humble opinion, which is worth exactly what you pay for it.
Concealed carriers and security guards who confuse themsevles with LE or try to appear as though they are LE are consistently problematic.
Cite please. IOW,
Put up or shut up (and I mean that in a good way!) :supergrin:
This is the second time in this thread I've asked for cites.
But then Uhlawpup, putting this into perspective, by the numbers acrss the nation it doesn't appear that there is a big problem, or really any problem, with permit holders stepping out of bounds and conducting themselves in that manner. I just don't see it happening. That's why CC has been so successful in gaining broad acceptance across the nation because there hasn't been any real (or perceived) problems with it.
99.9% of holders recognize (and conduct themselves as though) they are not LEO.
Sarge, I'm with you. But I'll ask the same from you as I do from others. Show me where your numbers come from. (It may be even higher!)
Unless the "99.9%" is being used as hyperbole...
Razoreye 06-16-2008, 11:28 sorry i shouldn't have brought up i had specifics. i went back and read some of them and decided it wouldn't be productive to "rehash." :)
an example would be i asked why is it important for the ccw to carry more than 10 rds and i was told to look to the fbi situation in miami or the la bank robbery shootout for my answer.
It's called anecdotal evidence. Sure you don't have to listen but it'd be wise to take advice where you can get it, in this case the expertise of law enforcement. I don't see the correlation on how this makes ccw'ers LEO...? I think you are drawing those conclusions because of a certain skewed bias about CI.
:popcorn:
TylerDurden 06-16-2008, 14:28 Only when I'm at the mall, looking at sunglasses.
witheringfire 06-16-2008, 14:40 Concealed-carrying citizens and security guards are valuable segments of society. Concealed carriers and security guards who confuse themsevles with LE or try to appear as though they are LE are consistently problematic.
Additionally, security guards who attempt to appear as though they are LE can be charged with a crime and will likely lose their state guard permit/card.
I'm in a sworn position that falls under the definition of correctional LE...but though I am allowed to CC off of my badge when off duty, I have no LEO authority.
Those who feel that a CCW gives them some added authoirity above that of any other citizen are a nuisance at best, and a threat to public safety at worst. A CCW permit is granted for personal protection - anyone who can't grasp that reality should not be allowed one...and probably should be in possesion of firearms in general.
DocwithGlock 06-16-2008, 14:57 A CCW permit is granted for personal protection - anyone who can't grasp that reality should not be allowed one...and probably should be in possesion of firearms in general.
Mine was granted because I am in a "shall issue" state. No other reason is needed than because I applied for one and cannot be denied.
RyanNREMTP 06-16-2008, 16:28 A CHL allows me to Protect my family not to Serve the public.
BamaTrooper 06-16-2008, 16:37 A CHL allows me to Protect my family not to Serve the public.
You realize if you used your gun to stop a felonious assault or robbery, you did serve the public.
You are the public, your family is the public. To stand by and watch a violent assault when you could have done something is pure S O R R Y.
No you don't have to do anything, just don't be upset if something happens YOUR family when someone thought that they should only protect THEIRS.
Only when I'm at the mall, looking at sunglasses.:animlol:
^it's a great story because it has a totally innocent victim and each and every one of us (armed with ccw or not) would do everything in our power to help that defenseless baby. nevermind our morals or duty to help, etc. we will all act. doesn't matter if you might get charged, who deserved what, it's apparent. unlike the videos of people watching as some getting killed, people feel helpless. even the helpless people tried to help this baby.
(a) You have a much higher opinion of the posters on this forum than I do. I truly believe most of them would lock their car doors and call 911.
(b) The people in the story don't seem to have really tried very hard, if at all, to help.
RyanNREMTP 06-16-2008, 19:45 You realize if you used your gun to stop a felonious assault or robbery, you did serve the public.
You are the public, your family is the public. To stand by and watch a violent assault when you could have done something is pure S O R R Y.
No you don't have to do anything, just don't be upset if something happens YOUR family when someone thought that they should only protect THEIRS.
That is protecting my family since it can carry over to where they are. By serving I mean I'm not going to go looking for trouble.
An incident happened in my neighborhood around 6 years ago. A man robbed a small liquor store with a BB gun. As the robber turned and started to run away with the money, the owner shot him in the back and killed him. The owner was never arrested, and he took the law into his own hands. The robber got what he wanted and was in retreat mode, yet the owner shot him in the back anyway. Is this justifiable?
DocwithGlock 06-16-2008, 20:31 An incident happened in my neighborhood around 6 years ago. A man robbed a small liquor store with a BB gun. As the robber turned and started to run away with the money, the owner shot him in the back and killed him. The owner was never arrested, and he took the law into his own hands. The robber got what he wanted and was in retreat mode, yet the owner shot him in the back anyway. Is this justifiable?
Why is this relevant? Do your think LEOs could have shot him?
The main question is, did the store owner fear for his life when he shot? Did he know it was a BBgun? Does that even matter? (I could care less if someone pulls a BB-gun or a pistol, either one could cause serious bodily injury). Have you ever heard of someone shooting over their shoulder as they ran away, or turning to shoot once they get to the door? (people have been known to shoot while in retreat mode)
i don't understand the coming to ones aid vs leo. let's all pretend we live in wisconsin. what does coming to another's aid, having a ccw or not and being leo have anything even remotely to do with one another.
it doesn't.
does having a ccw mean you have a greater responsibility than the person without ccw and if yes, does that responsibility approach that of leo in some folks mind?
here's my point. some people say they don't want to carry a firearm because they don't want "that responsibility" and they have weighed the risks and they believe they are better off without a firearm. fine. what "responsibilities" are they referring to?
How about the "responsibility" for taking a life. You can open any newspaper in any town in America tomorrow and find an example of human waste that, by assuming room temperature would make the world a better place.
I don't understand those people who say that they don't think that they could take a life, even in self defense, but I respect their decision. As a matter of fact I have more respect for those people than I do for immature folks who take a class and strap on a gun. Instead of making them actually think about the responsibility they have JUST BY CARRYING A GUN they gain bravado and when the crap hits the fan are more likely to get themselves killed than they are the bad guy. We have ALL seen these folks at the range. Mall Ninja's etc...
Until you have dealt with the emotional aftermath of killing a fellow human being you do not know how you will feel. Even if it's the biggest scumbag in the world you will have issues. Part of going around armed is making a decision that you may have to face a deadly force threat and that alone is worthy of thinking about that "responsibility"
Most people will do whatever is necessary to protect their life and their loved ones. Some do not have the proper mindset. Some like my older sister refuse to believe that there really are evil people and if she lives a good life bad things will not happen to her. Hopefully she never has her bubble burst.
Why is this relevant? Do your think LEOs could have shot him?
The main question is, did the store owner fear for his life when he shot? Did he know it was a BBgun? Does that even matter? (I could care less if someone pulls a BB-gun or a pistol, either one could cause serious bodily injury). Have you ever heard of someone shooting over their shoulder as they ran away, or turning to shoot once they get to the door? (people have been known to shoot while in retreat mode)
I guess it depends on where you are. In some states shooting the guy was justified because he was a threat to the community at large. Try that same thing in NY and the owner would be in jail. Do it here in NC and you may get a medal.
kensteele 06-16-2008, 22:01 you are correct that i do not know how i will react if a scumbag ends up dead and i am not positive how i will feel about it afterwards. unlike others who may have already gone thru this and now know or are sure they will enjoy cleaning up crime, i can't really say i know for sure.
however, i have decided to take the risk. partly because i know in my mind that i cannot and will not fire upon a person unless that is the last resort and the absolute only way that i have no other choice but to prevent imminent death or serious bodily harm. that's how i deal with it in my mind.
as long as i don't make the mistake (....get him before he might get me, fire because he broke a law and committed a felony, i'm not getting a good feeling about this so i need to draw and maybe shoot, etc) if i make no mistake and i pull the trigger to stop the threat of a fatality, i know myself well enough to know that i'll be ok in the long run i'm hoping. and then partially because of all the situations that i am aware of involving violent crime. together those have convinced me to carry and deal with the results....alive.
cjlandry 06-16-2008, 23:49 Every time I see this thread title, I can only think of one thing: "Are we black?"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y4YLuv0k4jk
Gunnut 45/454 06-16-2008, 23:54 Denied
I guess now that you have the Castle Doc law that doen't apply anymore:) So does this apply to off duty cops as well? To bad they don't site a law they applies this logic? God they want you to be victims I'm so glad I don't live there!!:rofl:
"WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking matters into their
own hands and acting as law enforcement agents. This is true even if
the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting someone
or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a
person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects
the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person
did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you may
be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun to
interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer will
not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types of
situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police."
cjlandry 06-17-2008, 00:08 Denied
I guess now that you have the Castle Doc law that doen't apply anymore:) So does this apply to off duty cops as well? To bad they don't site a law they applies this logic? God they want you to be victims I'm so glad I don't live there!!:rofl:
"WARNING:
The law specifically discourages citizens from taking matters into their
own hands and acting as law enforcement agents. This is true even if
the person thinks he is performing a good deed by protecting someone
or helping law enforcement. The Ohio Supreme Court has ruled that a
person risks criminal charges if he interferes in a struggle and protects
the person who was at fault, even if he mistakenly believed that person
did not create the situation.
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified. If
you do not know all the facts and interfere, you will not be justified to
use force. It does not matter that you mistakenly believed another was in
danger and not at fault.
Of greater concern than risking criminal charges is the fact that you may
be putting yourself and others in danger. If you use your handgun to
interfere in a situation, and an officer arrives on the scene, the officer will
not be able to tell if you are the criminal or if you are the Good Samaritan.
Ohio law does not encourage vigilantism. A license to carry a concealed
handgun does not deputize you as a law enforcement agent. Officers
are trained to protect members of the community, handle all types of
situations, and enforce the law. Do not allow the license to carry a
concealed handgun give you a false sense of security or empowerment.
Let law enforcement officers do their job. If you want to be a Good
Samaritan, call the police."
Honestly, I don't see the problem with the quoted text in bold. Seems sensible. It doesn't say that you'll be at fault if you know all the facts. It merely says that if you make a mistake because you don't know the facts, you'll probably have consequences to face.
Gunnut 45/454 06-17-2008, 00:20 RyanNREMTP
I don't think anyone has said that they go on patrols looking for BG's?
Gunnut 45/454 06-17-2008, 00:24 P.K
Yep it would be in ID!! The robber was commiting a felony and was armed the law here makes it plain use a weapon to commit a felony and your fare game and can be shot at any time! Gun, Knife , club and you can be shot! And if you haven't figured out yet a BB gun can kill!
cjlandry
Really? What I get is they are telling you in no uncertain terms you will be prosecuted if you use your weapon! And any use of your weapon is considered to be a Vigilante!!
Ranger.357 06-17-2008, 00:34 Folks who confuse concealed carry with anything similar to law enforcement are scary.
BINGO! :thumbsup:
cjlandry 06-17-2008, 01:45 cjlandry
Really? What I get is they are telling you in no uncertain terms you will be prosecuted if you use your weapon! And any use of your weapon is considered to be a Vigilante!!
In other words, if you misinterpret a situation and interfere, you may
face criminal charges because your use of deadly force is not justified.
Seems pretty clear to me.
If you misinterpret a situation... may face criminal charges...
It doesn't say that you will face criminal charges if you stand up for the life of an innocent victim. It just tells me that you'd best be damned certain of the situation.
uhlawpup 06-17-2008, 05:44 Seems pretty clear to me.
If you misinterpret a situation... may face criminal charges...
It doesn't say that you will face criminal charges if you stand up for the life of an innocent victim. It just tells me that you'd best be damned certain of the situation.
CJ, you've just condensed this entire thread into three sentences.
If someone want to use a concealed weapons permit to justify their acting as a law enforcement officer, it's their choice. They should understand that their action has both benefits and costs, and they should choose how to act accordingly.
They should also remember that the posters here are probably not going to pony up the cash to help them meet the costs, no matter what they post on here.
Seems pretty clear to me.
If you misinterpret a situation... may face criminal charges...
It doesn't say that you will face criminal charges if you stand up for the life of an innocent victim. It just tells me that you'd best be damned certain of the situation.
My intent by posting the Ohio warning is summed up in the quote. I hope we all re read our states laws and guidance which I suspect is in a similar document issued when you took the CCW course. I detect an attitude that some folks feel that they well be justified in using deadly force regardless of the situation and that is totally wrong. Please show us the state documentation before making such claims.
If someone want to use a concealed weapons permit to justify their acting as a law enforcement officer, it's their choice. I don't think intervening to save a life, is "acting as a law enforcement officer", regardless of what tool you happen to choose to use.
On the contrary, it's one of the most loving and generous acts a man can perform, that of potentially laying his life on the line for another.
(Oh, and good job CJ!)
Deradius 06-17-2008, 19:48 No concealed carry licensee should behave as a law enforcement officer. No concealed carry licensee should even consider him or herself a "good samaritan" as it relates to his or her permitted firearm.
The sole purpose of the firearm should be defense of life in an extreme emergency situation.
There are a few reasons that law enforcement is discussed frequently by folks who carry:
1. We're concerned about any situation in which we might have to interact with them. Officer safety being as vital as it is these days, and officers being understandably cautious as they are, there is a real risk of harm to any permitted firearms owner who does not behave wisely in certain situations. (Being pulled over, or encountering police officers after defensive use of the firearm, for example.)
2. Law enforcement officers face many of the same problems that we, in the natural pursuit of our interest, find ourselves concerned with. That's not to say that we concern ourselves with patrolling the streets for bad guys - that's the primary function of an LEO. However, concerns such as placement and choice of gear, judicious use of deadly force, application of practical nonlethal force where it is necessary, weapon retention, choice of firearm, situational awareness and preparedness, tactics, and firearms skill are issues that the police have been dealing with for years. Rather than reinvent the wheel, it can be useful to look at the practices that police have found effective, and appropriate those that are practical where they are reasonable.
In many cases, if it works on a day to day basis keeping the officer alive in the street, it's liable to work for us the one time we might need it.
....As long as it's not taken too far, and proper perspective and respect for law enforcement is applied, I see no problem with emulating some practices.
uhlawpup 06-17-2008, 22:08 I don't think intervening to save a life, is "acting as a law enforcement officer", regardless of what tool you happen to choose to use.
On the contrary, it's one of the most loving and generous acts a man can perform, that of potentially laying his life on the line for another.
(Oh, and good job CJ!)
You're right, and I never said that it was. The sensible man or woman will know the difference between "intervening to save a life" and "acting as a law enforcement officer." I do, and I'm only partially sensible. (Ask my wife.)
But, as I have said before, those who have a less than mature attitude regarding the carrying of a weapon, and the difference between an armed citizen and a sworn officer of the law, will not be swayed by anything we say here.
Sad, isn't it?
Patronus 06-17-2008, 22:33 Anyone who drives faster than I do is a hazard; anyone who drives slower than I do is an idiot.
Now apply that mindset to armed citizens: let's say a fellow Glock Talker describes a robbery or an active-shooter scenario wherein you personally may not be in immediate danger, but others definitely are. Regardless of your reply, others' reactions will be very similar:
You're either a CCW-badge-wearing, LEO-wannabe mall ninja, or you're a selfish, cold-hearted pantywaist. Regardless, you obviously shouldn't be carrying because you're just plain irresponsible.
All I'm trying to say is we're all different, but we're all the same in that we just want to live through it if "it" ever happens to us. For someone like me, who's never been in a shootout and has never had to even put his hand on his weapon, there are perhaps only 3 things I can do to mentally prepare for "it" -- 1) Study real-life scenarios; 2) Read others' what-if scenarios; 3) Cook up my own what-if scenarios. I can't think/speak/act from experience. What's more, each of us is reading others' posts with very individual perspectives, so what seems a clear-cut principle to me may be utterly gray to another person.
I know it sounds like psycho-babble relativism BS, but when you're dealing in what-ifs or vague descriptions of actual events, you gotta give a little breathing room for human differences. Bottom line, leggo my Eggo.
an example would be i asked why is it important for the ccw to carry more than 10 rds and i was told to look to the fbi situation in miami or the la bank robbery shootout for my answer.
Deradius gave an excellent answer to this argument:
No concealed carry licensee should behave as a law enforcement officer. No concealed carry licensee should even consider him or herself a "good samaritan" as it relates to his or her permitted firearm.
The sole purpose of the firearm should be defense of life in an extreme emergency situation.
There are a few reasons that law enforcement is discussed frequently by folks who carry:
1. We're concerned about any situation in which we might have to interact with them. Officer safety being as vital as it is these days, and officers being understandably cautious as t |