This is exactly why I carry

[I_Win40]

Police: Officer kills man who beat child to death (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080615/ap_on_re_us/baby_killed;_ylt=AsNxvySHvkYPqU1qmWe3st6s0NUE)
37 minutes ago

Police killed a 27-year-old man as he kicked, punched and stomped a toddler to death despite other people's attempts to stop him on a dark, country road, authorities said.

Investigators on Sunday were trying to establish the relationship between the suspect and the child they say he killed Saturday night. The Stanislaus County coroner said the boy appeared to be between 1 and 2 years old based on his size, according to county sheriff's deputy Royjindar Singh.

"It's been a long night of wondering, 'Why?' — not only for the officers and the passers-by who stopped and tried to help out, but for anyone. Why would somebody do this?" Singh said.

Singh said the coroner does not plan to confirm the identities of the suspect and victim until Monday. Because his injuries were so severe, the child will have to be identified through a blood or DNA test, he said.

The suspect had a child's car seat in the back of his four-door pickup truck. The truck caught the attention of an elderly couple at 10:13 p.m. Saturday because it was stopped in the two-lane road facing the wrong direction, Singh said.

As they got closer, the couple saw the man brutally beating the toddler behind his truck and throwing the child on the ground, according to Singh. Two or three other cars stopped, an unusual number to be passing through the remote area surrounded by a dairy, a cow pasture, a cornfield and a farmhouse, he said.

"What we got from witnesses is he was punching, slapping, kicking, stomping, shaking," Singh said. "They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

A sheriff's helicopter responding to emergency calls from the area landed in a cow pasture at 10:19 p.m. carrying a Modesto police officer who shot the man to death after he refused an order to stop beating the child, Singh said.

Paramedics tried to resuscitate the toddler, who was not breathing when they arrived. The boy was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

No children within the dead boy's age range have been reported kidnapped or missing in Stanislaus County, Singh said.

The incident happened on Bradbury Road about 10 miles west of Turlock, a city located about halfway between Sacramento and Fresno.
Isn't it ironic that the anti's keep questioning us as why we carry??? I don't know about everyone else but in my town we don't have cops coming to the rescue in helicopters. Even in this instance it was too late. It wouldn't have been too late if there had been a law abiding citizen to enrich the POS with the properties of lead. :cop: +1 for the responding officers that ended the situation and saved us some tax dollars.

[psychophipps]

Wow. Just wow. :shocked:

I can only imagine the horrifying scene all those people walked in on. The sad part is that the kid was probably toast, or close enough to it to not matter, by the time the witnesses rolled up to the scene. Shaking will kill a toddler or cause brain damage, especially if you're flipping out like that guy obviously was. Throwing it on the ground will kill a toddler, too. Stomping, kicking, and punching the poor thing is just icing on the cake at that point.
I won't front like a punk and say that I would have put the cap to him with ice in my veins, it's highly likely that I would have shot him to try to save that child, but a mind-blowing scene like that I could have just as easily gone into shock and just tried what those other people did.

Getting ready to have my first in a few months and I can't even imagine seeing it, let alone doing such an act...

[frank23185]

They couldn't dogpile the bastard?

[passive101]

Reading that just made me want to do something bad to him.

[Buckaroo]

Apparently their was an electric fence between the aggressor and the officer so the officer did what was best to try and save the child.

Sounds like a clean shoot to me.

http://www.kcra.com/news/16614252/detail.html

A helicopter crew was flying above Turlock when the call came in. When officers observed the assault taking place from the air, they decided to perform an emergency landing in a cow pasture near the road, police said.

A Modesto officer exited the helicopter but was unable to reach the road where the assault was allegedly taking place because of an electric fence.

The officer then shot the 27-year-old man who died at the scene, police said.

[Patronus]

Wow. Just wow. :shocked:

I can only imagine the horrifying scene all those people walked in on. The sad part is that the kid was probably toast, or close enough to it to not matter, by the time the witnesses rolled up to the scene. Shaking will kill a toddler or cause brain damage, especially if you're flipping out like that guy obviously was. Throwing it on the ground will kill a toddler, too. Stomping, kicking, and punching the poor thing is just icing on the cake at that point.
I won't front like a punk and say that I would have put the cap to him with ice in my veins, it's highly likely that I would have shot him to try to save that child, but a mind-blowing scene like that I could have just as easily gone into shock and just tried what those other people did.

Getting ready to have my first in a few months and I can't even imagine seeing it, let alone doing such an act...

First off, congratulations and Happy Father's Day, phipps. It sounds cliche to say it, but your life will never be the same....in a good way, mostly!

Anyway, phipps, I appreciated your introspection. It seems that threads that feature stories like this often get closed down real quick due to the inflammatory reactions that are spawned from that deeply rooted paternal/maternal instincts, which I completely understand.

Personally, my blood runs cold, but then nearly boils over, whenever I read about the evil that people do to innocent, young children; and it's hard not to turn around and post something like "I'd shoot to slide-lock and wash/rinse/repeat until I was empty."

As for being ready to act when the moment comes, I hope and pray that I'm "fast and accurate" in all things.

[OKlawman]

:steamed:

Clean shoot, and a hellva shot after running and an emergency landing by the officer.

:crying: For the loss of an innocent child's life and for the mother.

[WIG19]

As mentioned over on CT, this is less about carrying and more about why upwards of a dozen people could find nothing in their vehicles, nothing in the area, with which to collectively impede this piece of krap. I suppose the primary thing they couldn't find is their resolve.

Kitty Genovese weeps.

:patriot:

[tjbert47]

As mentioned over on CT, this is less about carrying and more about why upwards of a dozen people could find nothing in their vehicles, nothing in the area, with which to collectively impede this piece of krap. I suppose the primary thing they couldn't find is their resolve.

Kitty Genovese weeps.

:patriot:



Well said.

[boonyrat]

As mentioned over on CT, this is less about carrying and more about why upwards of a dozen people could find nothing in their vehicles, nothing in the area, with which to collectively impede this piece of krap. I suppose the primary thing they couldn't find is their resolve.

Kitty Genovese weeps.

:patriot:

agreed 100%,they suffer from "no balls disease",for gods sake it was a child!im sure the guy is in the v.i.p. section in hell! hope the bastard smolders like a big oak log for many decades!:steamed:

[LoneRanger19]

They couldn't dogpile the bastard?

+1 no one had a Maglite, or a tire iron. At least stab him with a pen or something.

It kind of goes back to the old guy on the security video that was struck by a hit and run driver. People are too much into the habit of pulling out their cell phones, calling 911, and not getting physically involved. I hope I'm wrong, but why do I see the scene as a dozen people in a circle on their cell phone, occasionally tugging on the guy's shirt tail with their free hand, and screaming stop, as this man beats his boy to death.

I'm fat and old, but I would have given this guy a class A beating.

[WIG19]

+1 no one had a Maglite, or a tire iron. At least stab him with a pen or something.

I'm fat and old, but I would have given this guy a class A beating.Lots of alternative uses for a Wilderness belt.

[Fear Night]

This is about the cleanest shoot possible. There is really no way for a defense to be built as to why he was stomping on a freaking 1 year old ...

[sebecman]

+1 no one had a Maglite, or a tire iron. At least stab him with a pen or something.

It kind of goes back to the old guy on the security video that was struck by a hit and run driver. People are too much into the habit of pulling out their cell phones, calling 911, and not getting physically involved. I hope I'm wrong, but why do I see the scene as a dozen people in a circle on their cell phone, occasionally tugging on the guy's shirt tail with their free hand, and screaming stop, as this man beats his boy to death.

I'm fat and old, but I would have given this guy a class A beating.

Easy to say with out actually being there, but I feel the same way. I have a 5 week old daughter.

The article says that the witnesses were an elderly couple, it is possible that the other cars also contained elderly people.

One would think that if anyone remotely able to stop him had been there that they would have tried.

[WIG19]

Easy to say with out actually being there, but I feel the same way.I agree that it's often easy to MMQB such things. I'm closer to 60 than 50, not fat, but not in great shape anymore since the military got the best of my knees & back, and certainly not a brawler by nature. (One of the reasons I carry is because I don't believe I should need to suffer a beat down first to be 'allowed' to save my life.) All that said, I know in my heart - not hope, I know - that I would be involved with this dead puke doing what I could, come what may. It's just the way it is and something I know that I'd be virtually unable to control.

[huntpro13]

I heard about this on the radio earlier today. As a father who is very serious about his 4 yo daughter's safety, I can't even begin to describe the emotion this elicited in me. Prayers to all those effected by this, both living and not. Sometimes this world can be a truly baffling place. This is a clear case of why I choose to carry and train.

[Bren]

Easy to say with out actually being there, but I feel the same way. I have a 5 week old daughter.

The article says that the witnesses were an elderly couple, it is possible that the other cars also contained elderly people.

One would think that if anyone remotely able to stop him had been there that they would have tried.

(a) how old do you have to be to let a little kid get beaten to death because you're scared of getting hurt?

(b) "One would think..." unless they read thread after thread on Glocktalk with people spouting about how all they would do is call 911 and be a good witness and they would never risk themselves to save a stranger, etc., etc.

[Armed Infidel]

I'm a pretty tuff guy but this story made me physically ill. Not just reading what one individual did, but what several individuals didn't do. :frown:

[NHCraigT]

This just makes me sick to my stomach.

We are obviously not speaking about what a human being did. That, was a rabid animal on the loose.

I can only imagine the mental history that those folks, who witnesses this, are going to carry with them, for the rest of their lives.

Sick to my stomach...and I wasn't even there...

[crash_gsxr750]

i dont understand how something like this happens, my prayers go out to the mother of the child

on a side note, i wouldnt have needed a gun to stop this guy from doing that, i wouldve done everything in my power to stop the beating.

[mb5417]

I read an account earlier today that said that the only two people who tried to intervene were an elderly couple who were unable to stop him.

Ironically, right now there are a number of people trying to justify to themselves why they did not help, and three people who are criticizing themselves for not doing enough (elderly couple)/ responding fast enough (Police Officer).

[B1rd]

So if someone with a CCW shoots the guy do they get arrested? If the child lives do they get arrested? If the child dies does the shooter get arrested? I still believe shooting the guy would be the correct move, but I bet it would be expensive for the shooter.

[Patronus]

So if someone with a CCW shoots the guy do they get arrested? If the child lives do they get arrested? If the child dies does the shooter get arrested? I still believe shooting the guy would be the correct move, but I bet it would be expensive for the shooter.

You sound new, and your Join Date confirms it. Welcome to Glock Talk.

One man to another, I encourage you to get some instruction and/or do some heavy reading, studying, and contemplating in order to wrap your head around the concept of CCW. I'm not disparaging you or your remarks; a little over 5 years ago, I was asking the same questions you are today.

You basically have to assume -- if not expect -- that it will be "expensive" anytime you have to pull the trigger in self-defense. (And I'm not talking about current ammo prices. :whistling: ) It's something worth thinking about, long and hard.

[iamhistory]

I can't even read stories like this anymore. They make me feel like a shell of a man and I wonder how someone could hurt a little one like that.

I would have killed the bastard too.

[willy1094]

It's really too bad this guy got an easy death. I couldn't imagine watching a grown man beat a little child to DEATH! In my view, passive bystanders killed the boy :steamed:

[Swattie]

Shooting is too good for that guy. I would have dished it out to him the same way he was giving it. :steamed:

[Brock Morgan]

So if someone with a CCW shoots the guy do they get arrested? If the child lives do they get arrested? If the child dies does the shooter get arrested? I still believe shooting the guy would be the correct move, but I bet it would be expensive for the shooter.

In the state of Kentucky you are allowed to use deadly force in the protection of a third party (the child) if they legally would have been allowed by law to protect themselves....in this case the child would have legally been allowed to use deadly force, however the victim in this case neither possessing a firearm, nor the requisite training, muscle strength to pull a trigger, even to verbalize a "please help me" means that one must act in their stead. Additionally, in this state it is written specifically that one can use deadly force to stop a felonious act which is "likely to endanger human life".

perhaps I am a cold b****rd, but I would have done exactly as the officer did....aim for the head, squeeze and repeat if necessary...and I would do it without a word to the perp....I would not give him another second to get even one more strike in on this child. For me, NOT doing what I wrote would be akin to being worse than a slimy slug. I will not care about the consequences in that case...someone has to take a stand against this kind of evil, an inserted into this kind of situation it would have been me.

We, as a society, have created many of these monsters by our tolerant, ever benevolent treatment of those housing evil....they act openly because they are not afraid of the consequences of their actions. It is time that we choose good over evil, in all of it's various flavors.

[Beware Owner]

My arms still have goosebumps. I guarantee you there is no question that even if this dirtbag killed me, his attention would have been definitely diverted from the boy.

Practice this at home:

Pull out your belt with one hand. Wrap both ends around your hands. Take the loose middle of it over the jerk's neck, dip about a foot by bending your kees as you keep your hands up by the neck, and make a 180 turn, raise yourself back to where your hands are at your shoulders, and do a crunch.

Take your keys, our your pen, out of your pocket. Hold it/them with the tip extruding from either side of your hand, and with good aim, but rather brutal and ruthlessly, gouge the man's eyes out. Both of them. Use your bare hands. He's not even looking at you, so it's easier to use a horizontal motion to rid him of his disease.

He's inside the vehicle, so you're limited in what you can do, if it's hard to pull him out. Get a stone lying around and make a hole in his skull. If you can somehow find to fit yourself in the vehicle with all this motion going on, try to push him out the other side. If he's outside, perform a sweep and stomp his head flat. Turn him around using his shoulders, then reach over, and with your hand as an eagle claw, rip his throat sideways so as to dislocate his trachea. Stick your arm as far as possible down his throat. Kick him in the nuts. Form your hand as a panther claw and strike as hard as possible at his neck. Grab his chin, open hand as you would a person you want to kiss, then with the other, grab the spherical form behind his skull, and with one sweeping and circular motion, let him see what's behind him, permanently.

You can start with that, and the list can go on. But you can see what may have happened to this dude.

[Beware Owner]

Double post.

[B1rd]

You sound new, and your Join Date confirms it. Welcome to Glock Talk.

One man to another, I encourage you to get some instruction and/or do some heavy reading, studying, and contemplating in order to wrap your head around the concept of CCW. I'm not disparaging you or your remarks; a little over 5 years ago, I was asking the same questions you are today.

You basically have to assume -- if not expect -- that it will be "expensive" anytime you have to pull the trigger in self-defense. (And I'm not talking about current ammo prices. ) It's something worth thinking about, long and hard.

I thought my post showed that I had read a lot and knew that in the state of Oklahoma you have the law on your side when you protect yourself, your wife, your parents and your kids, no one else. (Grand kids are not included in the law, of course that would not stop me).

I believe that shooting this guy would be morally justified. My question was, if you got there in time and tried to stop him physically but was unsuccessful what would happen if you shot him. I am afraid the child was dead very early in this process (At least I hope so for the child's sake). But if he wasn't and you saved his life, depending upon witnesses, I think the cops could lock you up for shooting the BG.

[Warp]

I thought my post showed that I had read a lot and knew that in the state of Oklahoma you have the law on your side when you protect yourself, your wife, your parents and your kids, no one else. (Grand kids are not included in the law, of course that would not stop me).

I believe that shooting this guy would be morally justified. My question was, if you got there in time and tried to stop him physically but was unsuccessful what would happen if you shot him. I am afraid the child was dead very early in this process (At least I hope so for the child's sake). But if he wasn't and you saved his life, depending upon witnesses, I think the cops could lock you up for shooting the BG.

In this specific case, based on what we know, I'd wager just about anything that a private citizen shooting the guy would not wind up in prison. At least not anywhere I will ever live.

[sebecman]

(a) how old do you have to be to let a little kid get beaten to death because you're scared of getting hurt?

(b) "One would think..." unless they read thread after thread on Glocktalk with people spouting about how all they would do is call 911 and be a good witness and they would never risk themselves to save a stranger, etc., etc.

well my granfather was in WWII and kicked major butt as a machine gunner. He is 87 now and although he still drives he uses a cane and sometimes a walker....I would classify him as elderly. He certainly wouldn't be afraid to shuffle out of his car and join the fight but then what do you think he could do in his advanced age against a raging homicidal freakin maniac that was (maybe) high on some kinda drug?

The story did not say they were afraid. It said;

"They tried to intervene and get involved, but their efforts really didn't have an effect. The suspect was engaged in what he was doing. He just pushed them off and went back to it."

but hey, if one of them elderly folks had a gun with em I bet they would have shot that SOB.....

[Beeen]

I am reminded of a quote that I'm sure most of us are very familiar with...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
I wonder if those who witnessed this act and did not stop it are reminded of it as well.


And I am very curious about what the officer who squeezed the trigger is going through right now. No doubt his life is suddenly quite topsy turvy: observing the brutal beating of an innocent child, taking the life of an individual, and now wondering if his career is at stake.
I can only hope that somewhere within him is the quiet, calm confidence of knowing that he alone, amongst a group of non-doers, did the right thing.

[PhoneCop]

As mentioned over on CT, this is less about carrying and more about why upwards of a dozen people could find nothing in their vehicles, nothing in the area, with which to collectively impede this piece of krap. I suppose the primary thing they couldn't find is their resolve.

Kitty Genovese weeps.

:patriot:

Well said.

agreed 100%,they suffer from "no balls disease",for gods sake it was a child!im sure the guy is in the v.i.p. section in hell! hope the bastard smolders like a big oak log for many decades!:steamed:

Easy to say with out actually being there, but I feel the same way. I have a 5 week old daughter.

The article says that the witnesses were an elderly couple, it is possible that the other cars also contained elderly people.

One would think that if anyone remotely able to stop him had been there that they would have tried.

(a) how old do you have to be to let a little kid get beaten to death because you're scared of getting hurt?

(b) "One would think..." unless they read thread after thread on Glocktalk with people spouting about how all they would do is call 911 and be a good witness and they would never risk themselves to save a stranger, etc., etc.

I assume we are all thinking of the, "my gun is only for the protection of me and mine," club?

[boonyrat]

So if someone with a CCW shoots the guy do they get arrested? If the child lives do they get arrested? If the child dies does the shooter get arrested? I still believe shooting the guy would be the correct move, but I bet it would be expensive for the shooter.

grown man beating a child to death... a defenseless child! your watching with firearm within reach and your thinking about being arrested and the expense??? to hell with being arrested,for gods sake its a child! lock me up and throw away the key,at least i did the right thing.
it would probably scare us all at the amount of people carry daily as a status symbol,or to protect themselves but would not step up and defend a defenseless child being beaten to death:dunno:!

[BigFameOne]

As mentioned over on CT, this is less about carrying and more about why upwards of a dozen people could find nothing in their vehicles, nothing in the area, with which to collectively impede this piece of krap. I suppose the primary thing they couldn't find is their resolve.

Kitty Genovese weeps.

:patriot:


that is what i was thinking, a tire iron, backpack, hell a hammer or anything would do if one only had the resolve to do it.

[Tailhunter]

(a) how old do you have to be to let a little kid get beaten to death because you're scared of getting hurt?

(b) "One would think..." unless they read thread after thread on Glocktalk with people spouting about how all they would do is call 911 and be a good witness and they would never risk themselves to save a stranger, etc., etc.

Old people are scared of everything ....... :steamed:

[2001YukeG19]

You cannot prove this or even justify it to much extent but how about making all of those worthless witnesses "Accessories to Murder"? "Negligence"? Seriously no-one had a pocket knife in their gove box, a tire iron in the trunk, a pen in the center console, a cigarette lighter on the dash?

I am sure that shock is the FIRST thing that would consume you when you arrive, but they could have helped. I mean was this guy a UFC Fighter, Professional Boxer, Triple Black Belt? Could he have taken out everyone standing around? Bet not, probably in and out of prison on various charges, drop-out, probably never accomplished anything in his life. That is why he was taking his frustrations out on someone that could not hurt him.

He deserves to be dead!!!

P.S We go in for our first ultrasound on Thursday, 9 weeks along!! And I have my appointment for my CCW on July 14th!

[Warp]

I am reminded of a quote that I'm sure most of us are very familiar with...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Hell ****ing yes.

It's been in my sig line for a long time, and isn't going anywhere.

You cannot prove this or even justify it to much extent but how about making all of those worthless witnesses "Accessories to Murder"? "Negligence"? Seriously no-one had a pocket knife in their gove box, a tire iron in the trunk, a pen in the center console, a cigarette lighter on the dash?

I am sure that shock is the FIRST thing that would consume you when you arrive, but they could have helped. I mean was this guy a UFC Fighter, Professional Boxer, Triple Black Belt? Could he have taken out everyone standing around? Bet not, probably in and out of prison on various charges, drop-out, probably never accomplished anything in his life. That is why he was taking his frustrations out on someone that could not hurt him.

He deserves to be dead!!!

P.S We go in for our first ultrasound on Thursday, 9 weeks along!! And I have my appointment for my CCW on July 14th!

A rock from the side of the road even.

[MisterLady27]

Howdy All,

1. And does anyone here think " why can't we all just get along?" ???

2. Another clear example that EVIL is real, alive and doing far too well here among mankind. Nevermind what the other side proclaims about the innate goodness of humans -- I(we) know different.

ML27

[Beware Owner]

I am reminded of a quote that I'm sure most of us are very familiar with...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
I wonder if those who witnessed this act and did not stop it are reminded of it as well.


And I am very curious about what the officer who squeezed the trigger is going through right now. No doubt his life is suddenly quite topsy turvy: observing the brutal beating of an innocent child, taking the life of an individual, and now wondering if his career is at stake.
I can only hope that somewhere within him is the quiet, calm confidence of knowing that he alone, amongst a group of non-doers, did the right thing.

Hopefully, if it's not the first time he's had to take a life. If it is, he's probably still having nightmares, probably depressed, second guessing even how many minutes to put the chicken in the microwave for, and his self esteem may take a hit. If he has enough loved ones around they might keep him from secluding himself. If anybody here knows him, let him read what we have to say:

"I thank God he allowed YOU to be there to do the right thing. It's NOT your fault the kid died. It is NOT your fault the pus bag died. It's NOT your fault you didn't arrive on time. But, even with all these things against you, you raced, against all odds, to save a life, no matter what you had to do. Good job. You're a man."

[digitspaw]

Isn't it ironic that the anti's keep questioning us as why we carry???

This is one of my favorite questions to answer. I've reduced my answer to 7 words and cut out the BS.

"In case I need to shoot someone"


I say that and then I shut up. It's the least amount of words I could find to utter to communicate the real reason that I've been armed since 1972.


:homer: "Doh!"

[tjbert47]

I assume we are all thinking of the, "my gun is only for the protection of me and mine," club?



YEP! Sounds like that to me.

[tjbert47]

Police: Officer kills man who beat child to death (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080615/ap_on_re_us/baby_killed;_ylt=AsNxvySHvkYPqU1qmWe3st6s0NUE)
37 minutes ago


Isn't it ironic that the anti's keep questioning us as why we carry???


I never get that question. But then not many know. :whistling:

[DonGlock26]

You sound new, and your Join Date confirms it. Welcome to Glock Talk.

One man to another, I encourage you to get some instruction and/or do some heavy reading, studying, and contemplating in order to wrap your head around the concept of CCW. I'm not disparaging you or your remarks; a little over 5 years ago, I was asking the same questions you are today.

You basically have to assume -- if not expect -- that it will be "expensive" anytime you have to pull the trigger in self-defense. (And I'm not talking about current ammo prices. :whistling: ) It's something worth thinking about, long and hard.


Would a person have to even worry about lawyers and torts in 1964 given the same set of circumstances? What has changed about America since the late 1960's that would make a person think twice about pulling the trigger on a guy like that?

[Big Al 24]

Reading this thread gave me a new idea on how to use the caged rear compartment of my work van if I ever encounter a situation such as this. IMHO a shot to the head is far to humane for such an animal.

[JRP99]

This post made me sick. I have 3 small grandchildren ages 1,3 and 6 and I just can't imagine how some piece of **it could do something like this to a child. As far as I'm concerned he got what he deserved. The only thing better would have been for him to get beat to death as well by those spinless bystanders. I can't understand how people couild just stand around and not do more to stop the attack on that poor innocent child. Too many people have become sheeple, conditioned to letting others do the work for them so they don't have to get involved. What happened to getting involved? No one had a bat, tire iron, stick, anything in thier car that they could have whacked this **ithead with? Unbelievable!

Jrp99

[soldz]

Heard an update about this story on the Mark Savage show,

1.....he said the guy was an illegal Mexican.:dunno:


2.....one of the people watching in shock was an off duty firefighter:whistling:

[Beware Owner]

Heard an update about this story on the Mark Savage show,

1.....he said the guy was an illegal Mexican.:dunno:


2.....one of the people watching in shock was an off duty firefighter:whistling:

Funny thing. Neither circumstance changed the outcome of the situation.

[sigdeputy]

I hope these "witnesses" (read - cowards) have trouble sleeping at night. There are some things in this world that are so clear and obvious. It's sad we live in a world where people can stand by and watch a grown man savagely beat a child. I'm sure they bragged to their friends and family about how quickly they dialed 9-1-1. They should have been calling 9-1-1 to come and pick up a dead child beater.

I hate reading posts where people make comments like; "I would have...", "If I were there..." and such statements. But, in this case, come on. Not one wolf in the entire pack of sheep?

Like other folks have said, this is the reason I carry. I pray I never have to react to a situation like this one. I pray even harder for the sheep who can stand by and do nothing. Hope they remember it every morning when they look in the mirror...

[BigFameOne]

I hope these "witnesses" (read - cowards) have trouble sleeping at night. There are some things in this world that are so clear and obvious. It's sad we live in a world where people can stand by and watch a grown man savagely beat a child. I'm sure they bragged to their friends and family about how quickly they dialed 9-1-1. They should have been calling 9-1-1 to come and pick up a dead child beater.

I hate reading posts where people make comments like; "I would have...", "If I were there..." and such statements. But, in this case, come on. Not one wolf in the entire pack of sheep?

Like other folks have said, this is the reason I carry. I pray I never have to react to a situation like this one. I pray even harder for the sheep who can stand by and do nothing. Hope they remember it every morning when they look in the mirror...


Totally agree, BUT even if I wasn't carrying there is NO way I would stand by. I would rather be beaten savagely fighting to save the child than stand by thinking that the guy looks dangerous.

[El Bronco]

That was beyond flippen sickening :steamed: ... almost as discusting was the 'lack of help' from non-committal doofs standing there with one thumb in their wazoo and the other on their almighty cellphone... ever more encourging for me to 'dont leave home without it' (gun that is)..... I wonder if (God forbid) this happened in CCW friendly state, if the outcome would have been similar? probably not.

[Patronus]

That was beyond flippen sickening :steamed: ... almost as discusting was the 'lack of help' from non-committal doofs standing there with one thumb in their wazoo and the other on their almighty cellphone... ever more encourging for me to 'dont leave home without it' (gun that is)..... I wonder if (God forbid) this happened in CCW friendly state, if the outcome would have been similar? probably not.

Well, being a Shall Issue state isn't an inoculation against a sheeple mentality every time. For example, Utah is one of the CCW-friendliest states in the Union, yet read what the dozens of bystanders did on a UTA Trax train in Salt Lake City back in January:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807741

:steamed:

[babietuan323]

so sad that things like this happen these days

[Landmonster]

Would a person have to even worry about lawyers and torts in 1964 given the same set of circumstances? What has changed about America since the late 1960's that would make a person think twice about pulling the trigger on a guy like that?

Lawyers. :crying:

[OKlawman]

I thought my post showed that I had read a lot and knew that in the state of Oklahoma you have the law on your side when you protect yourself, your wife, your parents and your kids, no one else. (Grand kids are not included in the law, of course that would not stop me).

I believe that shooting this guy would be morally justified. My question was, if you got there in time and tried to stop him physically but was unsuccessful what would happen if you shot him. I am afraid the child was dead very early in this process (At least I hope so for the child's sake). But if he wasn't and you saved his life, depending upon witnesses, I think the cops could lock you up for shooting the BG.

Not under the Stand My Ground Law for CCW in OK. If you are defending the life of another, and you reasonably believe that said person (victim) is having leathal (deadly) force used upon them. Then according to my old Sgt. "You send him straight to judgment, since it is not our job to judge."

[Beware Owner]

Then according to my old Sgt. "You send him straight to judgment, since it is not our job to judge."

The epitomy of romance. No questions asked.

[BigFameOne]

i think the legality of using force is not even an issue. I mean I have trouble seeing how it could not be a justified use of your weapon BUT more importantly, ethically you have no choice. If I shot the guy, even if I did it knowing my next address would be prison I would do it knowing that I had done the right thing, which to me is more important than doing the legal thing.

In this case I think they are one in the same.

[Cody Jarrett]

It brings back real bad memories of our own little guy (8 years old). He was molested and stabbed to death and the perp was sentenced to 3 years. We never had the chance to get close to the killer as police got him before the family could. He was released and did it again to two six-year-old twin boys immediately, again before anyone could act.

This misfit got exactly what he deserved from that cop. Clint Smith was right; there are some people in this world who just need to be killed. My hat goes off to all you guys who would have acted to defend this poor child. It's a comforting thought to know there are people out there who would put that child above themselves.

[rvrctyrngr]

In this specific case, based on what we know, I'd wager just about anything that a private citizen shooting the guy would not wind up in prison. At least not anywhere I will ever live.

I definitely agree, Warp.

Allow me to add that....

I can't, for the life of me, even imagine coming upon such a scene and not feeling compelled to act in some manner to intervene. I couldn't NOT do it and live with myself.

Even if I KNEW for a 100% non-negotiable, no questions asked fact that if I shot this guy I would go to prison, I'd STILL put him down with extreme prejudice, put on the bracelets, and drive my own damn self to the jail to check in.

[Beware Owner]

I definitely agree, Warp.

Allow me to add that....

I can't, for the life of me, even imagine coming upon such a scene and not feeling compelled to act in some manner to intervene. I couldn't NOT do it and live with myself.

Even if I KNEW for a 100% non-negotiable, no questions asked fact that if I shot this guy I would go to prison, I'd STILL put him down with extreme prejudice, put on the bracelets, and drive my own damn self to the jail to check in.

You're my new friend.

[BigFameOne]

It brings back real bad memories of our own little guy (8 years old). He was molested and stabbed to death and the perp was sentenced to 3 years. We never had the chance to get close to the killer as police got him before the family could. He was released and did it again to two six-year-old twin boys immediately, again before anyone could act.

This misfit got exactly what he deserved from that cop. Clint Smith was right; there are some people in this world who just need to be killed. My hat goes off to all you guys who would have acted to defend this poor child. It's a comforting thought to know there are people out there who would put that child above themselves.

I am very sorry to read that, I have no idea what to say but to fully agree with you and with Clint Smith.

[RONSTAR]

I think shooting him was far to easy of a punishment for this creep. In this case I think its time to take out the filet knife and hot iron. Id feed this creep his insides.

[Bren]

I thought my post showed that I had read a lot and knew that in the state of Oklahoma you have the law on your side when you protect yourself, your wife, your parents and your kids, no one else. (Grand kids are not included in the law, of course that would not stop me).

I believe that shooting this guy would be morally justified. My question was, if you got there in time and tried to stop him physically but was unsuccessful what would happen if you shot him. I am afraid the child was dead very early in this process (At least I hope so for the child's sake). But if he wasn't and you saved his life, depending upon witnesses, I think the cops could lock you up for shooting the BG.

That's unusual - in most states I've seen, using force to help a third party doesn't depend on their relaitonship to you. Can you cite a statute or source for this claim?

[B1rd]

That's unusual - in most states I've seen, using force to help a third party doesn't depend on their relaitonship to you. Can you cite a statute or source for this claim?

The statement was made rather strongly in the CCW class. I remember because he mentioned that grandkids were not actually listed.

It was also mentioned that the stand your ground law could take affect if you got involved and then became endangered. So I guess you would have to get involved physically then use lethal force when he turned his wrath on you, if you are still able.