Want To Move Up In Caliber. [Archive]

View Full Version : Want To Move Up In Caliber.

dango

06-15-2008, 22:21

Agent6-3/8

06-15-2008, 22:28

The 10mm is indeed a bit of an exotic round, atleast in the since that its never gained the popularity of the 9mm or .45ACP, but its here to stay. If thats what you want, I say go for it!

pgg00

06-15-2008, 22:29

Its not as popular as 9, .40, or .45 but it is still around. I don't see it going anywhere. It is harder to find it some areas. If you are worried about ammo availability you may look at the G30. It is the same size as the G29 and it is in .45

carbofan21

06-16-2008, 01:55

what will a 10mm do that a .40 or a .45 acp won't do? or a 9mm for that matter? unless you're needing protection against bears, those other calibers are both cheaper, more widely available, and plenty powerful enough for self defense against people

if you're already proficient with your glock 17, in my opinion, you're covered

MTS532

06-16-2008, 03:07

I already own a G17,but I,ve had my eye on a G29.I,m not a very large fellow, 5,9-170,but I am tough in the wrist.I travel quite a bit and have a few reasons to protect my-self.I read somewhere that the 10 mm. is an exotic round and may not be around long.Any feed-back?

If you want a 10mm, you should get to know this company:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

If this is for concealed carrying, I'm just not sure what you would be gaining by using a larger caliber, although I can see how the G29 would be much easier to conceal than your G17! However, as with many things, it's often not the fiddle, but the fiddler. Although the 9mm may not be as powerful as some rounds it can be just as effective as any other service caliber as long as the shooter does his part. Regardless of the caliber you choose, pick the best defensive ammo you can buy and the rest is up to you. Police and military units all over the world use the 9mm to great effect. The round is easy to control under stress and cheap to practice with. If you insist on a larger caliber, a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP will work just fine. I don't have any information to prove it, but I'd say these three calibers probably make up 90% of all police and military service pistol ammo in the Western Hemisphere. Pick one of these calibers and you'll be in good company.

Personally, for CCW, I would concentrate more on tactics and training than simply getting a larger caliber. For self defense purposes, effective firepower is putting as many rounds as possible into the vital areas of your attacker in as short a time as possible until the threat is eliminated. With premium self defense ammo, any of the semi-auto service calibers (9mm, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP) will do this just fine.

I'm not taking anything away from either the G29 or the 10mm. It's a great gun and great round. But for CCW, I'm just not sure what you are gaining. Given this option, if you're a Glock fan, I'd get a G19, G23 or a G30 and lots of ammo to practice with.

MSgt Dotson

06-16-2008, 08:12

fredj338

06-16-2008, 15:41

The 10mm is a nice round indeed, but, for defensive purposes against 2 legged meat-sacks, the .40 is enough, and, available in the same grip size as your Glock 17....

Find a Glock 23 or 22, or, better yet, a Glock 35!

I would have to agree. As long as Glock makes 10mm, it will be here as a niche cartridge, a good one though.

glock20c10mm

06-16-2008, 18:13

glock20c10mm

06-16-2008, 18:33

what will a 10mm do that a .40 or a .45 acp won't do? or a 9mm for that matter?

Well for starters -

First, let's put some numbers up for comparison:

The kinetic energy is listed after "KE", penetration depth is listed after "P" and is based on clothed gel for ALL rounds, expanded bullet diameter is listed after "E", wound volume is listed in cubic inches(ci) and is based on 12" penetration for ALL rounds unless a specific round couldn't manage 12" penetration, and in the last column in pounds per square inch(psi) is the peak ballistic pressure wave. Please note - for PBPW, for any round that fragmented to any extent, the PBPW is actually higher than what's shown, I just don't know how to figure it in. Therefore, all PBPW numbers assume zero fragmentation.

Most of the HST #s and Speer Gold Dot #s are based on averages from the ATK workshop results with various police departments. Those that aren't based on an average were tested only 1 time. Those workshop results can be viewed in their entirety here - http://www.le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx

Win 380auto T Series, 95gr, 1000fps, KE=211, P=7.95, E=.64, 2.6ci, 507psi

Speer 38special+P GD, 135gr, 860fps, KE=222, P=11.75, E=.59, 3.2ci, 361psi
Win 38spcl T Series+P, 130gr, 925fps, KE=247, P=12.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 393psi

Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 115gr, 1415fps, KE=511, P=12.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 813psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 124gr, 1310fps, KE=472, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 684psi
Federal 9mm+P HST, 124gr, 1200fps, KE=396, P=12.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 605psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 124gr, 1150fps, KE=364, P=13.90, E=.64, 3.9ci, 501psi
Win9mm+P T Series, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=13.90, E=.67, 4.2ci, 526psi
Win9mm +P Bonded, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=18.70, E=.54, 2.7ci, 392psi
Win9mm+P+TSeries, 127gr, 1250fps, KE=441, P=12.20, E=.68, 4.4ci, 691psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 147gr, 1125fps, KE=413, P=14.00, E=.66, 4.1ci, 563psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 147gr, 1000fps, KE=326, P=14.40, E=.66, 4.1ci, 433psi
Speer 9mm GD,,,,,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=15.25, E=.58, 3.2ci, 401psi
Win 9mm T Series,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 422psi
Win 9mm Bonded,,,,, 147gr,, 995fps, KE=323, P=16.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 374psi

DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 115gr, 1550fps, KE=613, P=12.12, E=.71, 4.8ci, 955psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 125gr, 1450fps, KE=584, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 770psi
Win357SIG T Series, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=12.10, E=.66, 4.1ci, 798psi
Win357SIG Bonded,, 125gr, 1350fps, KE=506, P=15.90, E=.57, 3.1ci, 608psi
DT 357SIG Gold Dot, 147gr, 1250fps, KE=510, P=14.75, E=.73, 5.0ci, 661psi

DT 357mag Gold Dot, 125gr, 1600fps, KE=710, P=12.75, E=.69, 4.5ci, 1063psi
Speer SB 357magGD, 125gr,,, 990fps, KE=294, P=14.50, E=.65, 4.0ci, 388psi
Win 357magSilvertip, 145gr, 1290fps,, KE=536, P=12.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 819psi
DT 357mag Gold Dot, 158gr, 1400fps, KE=688, P=19.00, E=.56, 3.0ci, 692psi

DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 115gr, 1800fps, KE=827, P=10.00, E=.64, 3.2ci, 1579psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 125gr, 1725fps, KE=826, P=15.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 1051psi
DT 9X25 Gold Dot, 147gr, 1550fps, KE=784, P=17.50, E=.68, 4.4ci,, 856psi

DT 40S&W Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1375fps, KE=567, P=12.10, E=.72, 4.9ci, 894psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 155gr, 1275fps, KE=559, P=13.00, E=.76, 5.4ci, 825psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 165gr, 1200fps, KE=528, P=14.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 721psi
Rem Golden Saber,,, 165gr, 1150fps, KE=485, P=14.00, E=.67, 4.2ci, 662psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 165gr, 1130fps, KE=468, P=14.00, E=.75, 5.3ci, 637psi
Win40S&W T Series, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=13.20, E=.70, 4.6ci, 690psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 165gr, 1140fps, KE=476, P=19.00, E=.55, 2.9ci, 479psi
Speer 40S&W GD,,,, 180gr. 1025fps, KE=420, P=11.75, E=.72, 4.9ci, 683psi
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 180gr, 1100fps, KE=484, P=14.75, E=.68, 4.4ci, 626psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 180gr, 1010fps, KE=408, P=13.40, E=.77, 5.6ci, 582psi
Rem JHP (not GS),,,, 180gr, 1015fps, KE=412, P=13.25, E=.69, 4.5ci, 594psi
Win40S&W T Series, 180gr,,, 990fps, KE=392, P=14.30, E=.70, 4.6ci, 524psi
Win 40S&W Bonded, 180gr,, 1070fps, KE=458, P=21.80, E=.51, 2.5ci, 402psi

DT 10mm Nosler,,,, 135gr, 1600fps, KE=767, P=11.00, E=.70, 4.2ci, 1332psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 155gr, 1475fps, KE=749, P=13.50, E=.88, 7.3ci, 1061psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 165gr, 1425fps, KE=744, P=14.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 964psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 165gr, 1400psi, KE=718, P=14.25, E=1.02, 9.8ci, 962psi
DT 10mm Gold Dot, 180gr, 1300fps, KE=675, P=15.25, E=.96, 8.7ci, 846psi
DT 10mm G. Saber, 180gr, 1330fps, KE=707, P=16.00, E=.85, 6.8ci, 844psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 180gr, 1350fps, KE=728, P=17.25, E=.77, 5.6ci, 808psi
DT 10mm Hor. XTP, 200gr, 1250fps, KE=694, P=19.50, E=.72, 4.9ci, 680psi

Win 45GAP T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi

DT 45auto Gold Dot, 185gr, 1225fps, KE=616, P=12.75, E=.82, 6.3ci, 923psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 185gr, 1140fps, KE=534, P=14.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 716psi
Win45auto Silvertip, 185gr, 1000fps, KE=411, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 593psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 200gr, 1125fps, KE=562, P=14.25, E=.88, 7.3ci, 753psi
DT 45auto Gold Dot, 230gr, 1010fps, KE=521, P=15.25, E=.95, 8.5ci, 653psi
Federal45auto+P HST,230gr, 950fps, KE=461, P=14.60, E=.85, 6.8ci, 603psi
Federal 45auto HST, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=14.40, E=.86, 7.0ci, 537psi
Speer 45auto G Dot, 230gr,, 890fps, KE=405, P=13.50, E=.70, 4.6ci, 573psi
Rem45auto G Saber, 230gr,, 875fps, KE=391, P=14.00, E=.74, 5.2ci, 534psi
Win 45auto T Series, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=12.70, E=.72, 4.9ci, 630psi
Win45auto+PTSeries, 230gr, 990fps, KE=500, P=15.20, E=.78, 5.7ci, 628psi
Win 45 auto Bonded, 230gr, 905fps, KE=418, P=15.80, E=.67, 4.2ci, 506psi

Ok, now from the numbers, let's take a look at the differences between the 9mm and 10mm.

Those #s do appear at first to be close. But it's decieving when you look at the actual difference in wound volume(size). Let's have a look at those #s again and I'll add KE numbers for those that are curious-
10mm 155gr Gold Dot, 1475fps, P = 13.50", E = .88", 1061psi, KE = 750
9mm+P 124gr Gold Dot, 1310fps, P = 13.25", E = .70", 684psi, KE = 475
9mm+P 147gr Gold Dot, 1125fps, P = 14.00", E = .66", 564psi, KE = 415

Ok, there they are. Now let's look at the wound volume figures each would produce(these numbers are based on full prentration in ballistic gel)-
10mm 155gr - 8.2 cubic inches
9mm+P124gr - 5.1 cubic inches
9mm+P147gr - 4.8 cubic inches
In case those #s don't seem high enough, think of it this way, lets just use the "8.2". Picture the wound as a 1" X 1" square hole going 8.2" deep. Same for the other two. If you ask me, that's pretty serious. Now let's compare the 3 rounds wound volumes by percentage -

The 10mm has produced 3.1 cubic inches more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr which is 38% more damage! That's over one third more wound! Between the 10mm and 9mm 147gr we're looking at a difference of 3.4" or 41% more wound! Dude, that's a lot in my book and I would think in yours too.

Now let's take it a step further and check out the KE and psi #s. First, between the 10mm and 9mm 124gr, the 10mm produces 275 lbs/ft more KE or 37% more. Compared to the 9mm 147gr, the 10mm produces 335 lbs/ft more KE or 45% more.

Second, now looking at peak psi of Ballistic Pressure Wave, between the 10mm and 9mm 124gr, the 10mm produces 377psi more peak BPW or 36% more. Compared to the 9mm 147gr, the 10mm produces 497psi more peak BPW or 47% more.

Now, about Ballistic Pressure Wave. I fully understand there are some nonbelievers. If that's the case, fine. IMHO, it's your loss. But, most people believe that more KE in some way does help out in some way, and lots of people have lots of different view points on this and some have no opinion at all other than that they think more KE helps somehow. This is all fine and good. I do agree that everyone if free to believe what they want to.

To sum it all up, here is my belief from the above info between the 3 aformentioned rounds. The 10mm 155gr is more than one third more powerful than the 9mm 124gr and practically double more powerful than the 9mm 147gr. And not only is the 10mm more powerful energy wise, in the process the 10mm 155gr is producing a 40% larger wound in the process. Those are huge differences in my book!

To look at it a slightly different way, the 10mm made a 40% larger wound than the 9mm rounds and makes the body attempt to absorb over 35%, to up to almost 50%, more slam, slap, punch,....whatever you wanna call it, than the 9mm rounds.

Just think, in this whole post I compared the two heaviest 9mm loads to a weakling 155gr 10mm load!

Let's do another comparison, based on overall averages;

The following is based on the claims by the manufacturers Winchester and Double Tap. The numbers by both companies were derived from their own clothed gel tests. The wound volume numbers are all calculated out to cubic inches. The furthest penetrating load managed to penetrate 18.7" which was a 9mm load by Winchester and the least penetrating load managed to penetrate 12.2" which was also one of the Winchester 9mm loads. All 10mm loads fell within the above listed penetration depths.

DT 10mm 165gr Gold Dot ----- 11.6
DT 10mm 180gr Gold Dot ----- 11.0
DT 10mm 180gr Golden Saber - 9.1
DT 10mm 155gr Gold Dot ----- 8.2
DT 10mm 165gr Golden Saber - 7.8
DT 9mm 124gr+P Gold Dot ---- 5.1
Win9mm 147gr T series ------- 5.0
Win9mm 124gr+P T series ---- 4.9
DT 9mm 147gr+P Gold Dot ---- 4.8
DT 9mm 115gr+P Gold Dot ---- 4.6
Win9mm 147gr Bonded ------- 4.5
Win9mm 127gr+P+ T series -- 4.4
Win9mm 124gr+P Bonded ---- 4.3

Worst Case Scenario for 10mm is that it's 35% better than 9mm in terms of wound volume.

Best Case Scenario for 10mm is that it's 63% better than 9mm in terms of wound volume.

Average Case Scenario for 10mm is that it's 49% better than 9mm in terms of wound volume.

Even if you discard the two 10mm DT loads producing 11.0 and 11.6 cubic inches of wound volume, the 10mm's average case scenario would still make it 44% better than 9mm in terms of cubic inches of wound volume.

I look at it like this; Why would you want to shoot a BG 40% more times to incapacitate him? You'ld actually be wasting rounds you may need in the event you do miss the BG a number of times. Unless you think the whole two extra rounds the G17 holds over the G20 will save you in this respect.

Look at it this way in reference to the above percentages of 35%, 44%, 49%, and 63%.

In a scenario where, let's say, the difference between your favorite round in 10mm produced 63% more cubic inches of wound volume than your favorite round in 9mm, you would have to have 26 rounds of 9mm to equal the same wv of 16 rounds(what a G20 can hold) of 10mm!

And at 49% you'ld need 24rnds of 9mm,
And at 44% you'ld need 23rnds of 9mm,
And at 35% you'ld need 22rnds of 9mm.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't think even the mighty G17 is gonna get you there. And don't even bring up the 33rnd mags.

Also note that in this comparison, the penetration depth is based on maximum penetration in ballistic gel.

And one last "word" on Ballistic Pressure Wave and Kinetic Energy;

This is key to a common misconception. It's not about muzzle energy or whatever kinetic energy the bullet has retained at distance from the muzzle that directly effects quicker incapacitation from my view or others that share the same view as me. It's all about the retarding force on the bullet as it passes through a human.

Kinetic energy is only part of the "equation" in relation to greater retarding forces incapacitating a BG quicker. The greater the retarding forces, the greater the peak ballistic pressure wave generated. With a peak ballistic pressure wave of at least 500psi is where we generally start to see quicker incapacitation(incapacitation in under 5 seconds).

At 1000psi peak ballistic pressure wave it is theorized that quicker incapacitation(in under 5 seconds) becomes probable rather than just possible. Under 500psi it is theorized that PBPW would equate to a rather uncommon occurance of BGs being incapacitated any quicker than by bleed out alone(over 5 seconds to incapacitation and more commonly 15 seconds or more). This all assumes shots placed in the thoratic cavity, and not to the central nervous system.

PBPW can be calculated without anyone being shot. Therefore we can compare all rounds in terms of PBPW without anyone being shot. At this point there is scientific data supporting the BPW theory. There is no scientific data going against it. Believe in it or don't, it's up to you.

Good Shooting,
Craig:thumbsup:

glock20c10mm

06-16-2008, 18:39

what will a 10mm do that a .40 or a .45 acp won't do?

As for a quick little comparison of the 40S&W vs 10mm -

First, looking at Ballistic Pressure Wave:
Double Tap 40SW 155gr Gold Dot, BPW = 825psi
Double Tap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot, BPW = +1100psi

AND!, when looking at wound volume at a penetration depth of 9.5"(the depth of the average human torso) -
Double Tap 40SW 155gr Gold Dot, WV = 4.3 Cubic Inches
Double Tap 10mm 155gr Gold Dot, WV = 5.8 Cubic Inches

So we have a 25%plus greater BPW, and, 26% greater wound volume assuming a direct frontal shot of the COM. That's more than plenty for me to choose the 10mm recoil over what the 40SW/9mm lack. If the numbers were under 10%, I'ld reconsider, but there not.

It could be my life we're talking about. I may never end up in a situation. For the small chance I ever do, I want the greatest chance to be the one still standing after it's all said and done, and I believe the 10mm will give me the best chance for that to happen. I'm not interested in spraying and praying with a 9mm. YMMV.:supergrin:

454ThunderGod

06-17-2008, 11:57

Not to digress....but uh

if you (the author) are checking on 10mm availability...then Im confused why you stated your size - 5' 9", 170lb.

Im not seeing the relevence.

MrMurphy

06-17-2008, 12:00

I am your size and have no problem shooting the 10mm.

It's not an exotic, it's just not as popular as they thought it would be. Like the .41 Magnum, .357 Sig, etc it'll be around for a long time to come.

For your purposes, stick with the caliber you have and get better training. If you really want to move up in caliber, I prefer the .45 ACP (G30) but the .40 isn't bad. Actually kicks more (more muzzle jump and snap, than the push of a .45) to most people.

SubSolar

06-18-2008, 02:11

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power#One-shot_stop

Some CCW holders in the United States have elected since 2006 to switch from carrying hollow-point bullets and especially 10 mm caliber weapons with perceived higher one-shot stopping power to instead favor carrying smaller caliber weapons after the conviction of retired school teacher Harold Fish in Arizona for second degree murder during a self-defense shooting. His conviction for killing a homeless man with a history of mental instability who attacked him while hiking on a remote trail was obtained through a jury trial by stressing Fish overreacted through choosing to use the increased stopping power of 10 mm hollow point bullets. State law in Arizona has subsequently been changed, such that the state now has the burden to prove that a self defense shooting was not in self defense, whereas the burden previously before the Fish incident was that the shooter on trial had to prove that the shooting was in fact done in self defense. Meanwhile, many CCW holders have elected to switch to carrying handguns loaded with FMJ bullets in calibers smaller than 10 mm. A choice often advocated for selecting the correct stopping power in CCW training classes is to select to use the exact same type of bullets (FMJ or hollow point), in the exact same caliber that are used by the local police, to avoid being accused of overreacting during any self defense post-incident trial.

Rugby

06-18-2008, 04:42

Well for starters -Good Shooting,
Craig:thumbsup:

Yet you trust the 9mm to defend the life of your wife, home, and family. Hhhmmm...

PAGunner

06-18-2008, 11:49

10mm is by no means exotic. If I could only have one hand gun and money to practice was not an issue, it would probably be a 10mm since it is so versatile. I'm a 9mm guy for SD, but I wouldn't trust the 9mm on the 4 legged threats as much as a 10mm.

10mm is here to stay, not an exotic round, but practice ammo will probably always be on the high side.

IMO, I would trade the G17 for a G19 to CCW and home defense and get a G20 for HD and wilderness carry.

Los Suenos

06-18-2008, 21:18

I'd suggest the heaviest FMJ .22LR you can find. It's where the bullets land and how fast you put them there that matters. You're just beating up your gun and wrist with 9mm. It's also way too expensive. Anyone who disagrees with me can hold my target when I have my P22 in my hand, the best combat pistol ever invented. 10mm?

:yawn::cheers::popcorn::rofl:

_The_Shadow

06-18-2008, 23:00

Buy a 10mm pistol, reloading equipment, learn how to use both and load them like you want them from mild to Wild! You will not be disappointed!

glock20c10mm

06-19-2008, 00:17

Yet you trust the 9mm to defend the life of your wife, home, and family. Hhhmmm...
I don't understand. Please explain.

Rugby

06-19-2008, 04:46

I don't understand. Please explain.

You do own a 9mm, do you not? If the answer is yes, and I think it is, what do you own it for?

English

06-19-2008, 06:22

Well for starters -

First, let's put some numbers up for comparison:

.........
Those #s do appear at first to be close. But it's decieving when you look at the actual difference in wound volume(size). Let's have a look at those #s again and I'll add KE numbers for those that are curious-
10mm 155gr Gold Dot, 1475fps, P = 13.50", E = .88", 1061psi, KE = 750
9mm+P 124gr Gold Dot, 1310fps, P = 13.25", E = .70", 684psi, KE = 475
9mm+P 147gr Gold Dot, 1125fps, P = 14.00", E = .66", 564psi, KE = 415

Ok, there they are. Now let's look at the wound volume figures each would produce(these numbers are based on full prentration in ballistic gel)-
10mm 155gr - 8.2 cubic inches
9mm+P124gr - 5.1 cubic inches
9mm+P147gr - 4.8 cubic inches
In case those #s don't seem high enough, think of it this way, lets just use the "8.2". Picture the wound as a 1" X 1" square hole going 8.2" deep. Same for the other two. If you ask me, that's pretty serious. Now let's compare the 3 rounds wound volumes by percentage -

The 10mm has produced 3.1 cubic inches more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr which is 38% more damage! That's over one third more wound! Between the 10mm and 9mm 147gr we're looking at a difference of 3.4" or 41% more wound! Dude, that's a lot in my book and I would think in yours too.
..........

Good Shooting,
Craig:thumbsup:

Craig,
I hate to quibble but your arithmetic is wrong and so you are significantly understating the case for the 10mm in the last of the paragraphs I have quoted above.

If you are saying that the 10mm has 3.1 cubic inches more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr then as a proportion or percentage you want the increase of the 10mm over the 9mm and so you need to divide the difference by the wound volume of the 9mm and not by the 10mm. That is, 3.1/5.1. In other words the 10mm has 61% more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr and not 38%. The 38% is the percentage that the 9mm is less than the 10mm and comes from dividing the wound difference by the wound volume of the 10mm - 3.1/8.2 which gives your 38%.

Equally, the wound volume gain of the 10mm over the 9mm 147gr is 3.4/4.8 which gives a 71% gain and not 41%.

If we just go by wound volume, as many do, then two shots of the 10mm are worth only 2.7% less than three shots of the 147gr. and three shots of the 10mm are worth 4.25% more than four shots of the 124gr.

As we agree, wound volume is only a small part of rapid incapacitation and the BPW figures are far more significant but here there is not a simple relationship between probability of incapacitation and the psi peak of the BPW but one which rises more rapidly than the increase of psi.

English

glock20c10mm

06-19-2008, 14:02

You do own a 9mm, do you not? If the answer is yes, and I think it is, what do you own it for?

Ahhhh, now I "see". Let's set the record straight. I do not own a 9mm. My girlfriend who I commonly refer to as my wife(we've been together for 18 years, so call it what you want) owns a G19C. I do not make her decisions for her. The 9mm is her choice. I did tell her what to expect from different rounds before she chose the G19C, and in the end she picked the gun. She's had it for a few years now. She's not a "shooter" in general, but, when I can get here to tag along she ends up having fun.

She's kind of like your wife in that she'ld more than likely have a hard time shooting anyone or anything, but from what you posted about your wife, I don't think mine is quite that bad. Still, she might end up getting herself into more trouble if it ever came down to it, before taking care of the problem at hand. There are a couple of exceptions with her. For example, she likes some animals more than others. If it was a mean dog, she may have a hard time pulling the trigger. If it was a mean Javelina, I know she'ld unload on it! But, you never know, I'm only speculating from the standpoint of being with her for 18 years.

Lately, let's say on and off over the last 6 months, maybe a little more, she's been considering something more "powerful". She has fired my old G20C and my current G29, and in general had no real problem shooting either. The weird thing, from the way people talk around here, she feel's the recoil is less with the G29 than the G20C, just as I do. But, it's more recoil than I think she'ld have fun with after a 200+ round session. She's never run anything more than 10-20 rounds through it at any one outing.

When she asks me about going up to a "bigger/more powerful" cartridge, I tell her there's not enough difference between a 9mm/40S&W/45auto to warrant a switch, and why I feel that way. She generally agrees. Plus, don't think she just goes by what I say, as she does follow these threads(mostly that I'm involved in) quite closely. Not always, but not uncommonly either.

In your first post relating to this, you mentioned: wife, home, and family. I've covered the "wife". As far as "family", we have no children(that live at home anyway) and my only pet it a Mojave Rattlesnake. So that's pretty much a moot point.

As far as "home", the wife is well aware, of the 12ga Benelli, the .223 carbine style rifle, and the 308 sniper style rifle, in the house, and knows full well how to use any of them. I'm not saying she's a pro with any of them, as she's far from it, but would have no problem using them in general. Therefore, when she's home alone, she has much more than the 9mm to rely on.

This is Debbie (wife). Craig was nice enough to let me read this before he submitted it. I just wanted to let you know I'm in no way afraid to shoot Craig's G29 to defend myself from bad guys. Furthermore I'd probably grab the Benelli if needed. I feel more comfortable with the G29 than the shotgun as far as recoil goes hands down.

Craig keeps me well protected with a great selection of everything in the house that I in general know how to shoot and am not afraid to shoot, except for the 44 Mag.:shocked: I have been carrying a G19C for the past few years and fortunately have never had to use it. I don't feel totally safe with it when mountain hiking in case I would run into a mountain lion/bear. With a 10mm I would feel much safer but, I am small and it weighs more than the 9mm on long hikes.

I have been thinking of switching to a 357SIG only because of the weight factor over the 10mm. Recoil is not an issue on either. With 44 mag it would be. I do think the 9mm is easy to shoot but don't feel 100% confident in it, for obvious reasons Craig has thoroughly explained to me, and within these threads in caliber corner. BTW, I don't tell Craig what to do and he doesn't tell me so in the end I make my own decisions.

There, now you've got her side of the story too. Anything else you want to know?

glock20c10mm

06-19-2008, 14:53

Craig,
I hate to quibble but your arithmetic is wrong and so you are significantly understating the case for the 10mm in the last of the paragraphs I have quoted above.

If you are saying that the 10mm has 3.1 cubic inches more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr then as a proportion or percentage you want the increase of the 10mm over the 9mm and so you need to divide the difference by the wound volume of the 9mm and not by the 10mm. That is, 3.1/5.1. In other words the 10mm has 61% more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr and not 38%. The 38% is the percentage that the 9mm is less than the 10mm and comes from dividing the wound difference by the wound volume of the 10mm - 3.1/8.2 which gives your 38%.

Equally, the wound volume gain of the 10mm over the 9mm 147gr is 3.4/4.8 which gives a 71% gain and not 41%.

If we just go by wound volume, as many do, then two shots of the 10mm are worth only 2.7% less than three shots of the 147gr. and three shots of the 10mm are worth 4.25% more than four shots of the 124gr.

As we agree, wound volume is only a small part of rapid incapacitation and the BPW figures are far more significant but here there is not a simple relationship between probability of incapacitation and the psi peak of the BPW but one which rises more rapidly than the increase of psi.

English
I see what you're saying, as far as the math in general goes, but, I don't know why anyone would ever state it like that. Maybe I simply lack the understanding to see what you're really trying to tell me. I'm not sure, feel free to elaborate further.

Here's the thing; I posted;
10mm 155gr - 8.2 cubic inches
9mm+P124gr - 5.1 cubic inches
The 10mm has produced.........................38% more damage!

Now looking at it simply like that, which is ultimately a shortened version of what I originally intended to say, I go by what I said, and don't see how it would make sense to look at it any other way. Comments are more than welcome.

Let's use really simple numbers virtually anyone including me can figure in our head. One round produces 10"CubicWV and another produces 5"CubicWV. So I would say the there's a 50% greater volume with the 10" one, and you would say it's 100% greater, right?

I think I've answered my own question. I was thinking you would use the same number for "greater" and "lesser", but it's not correct at all, right? Like you said; "The 38% is the percentage that the 9mm is less than the 10mm..." And not as you said; "In other words the 10mm has 61% more wound volume than the 9mm 124gr and not 38%."

It's just weird for me to think that if one round produces 38% less wound volume, then why doesn't the other round produce 38% more wound volume. Maybe I've actually confused myself more now, not sure. Is it wrong to look at it that way, or are we both correct? Please explain further.

Thanks,
Craig:thumbsup:

English

06-19-2008, 15:23

glock20c10mm

06-19-2008, 15:40

Craig,
Youv'e got it. they are always different. 80 is 80% of 100 but 100 is 125% of 80. Think of what you want something to be a percentage of and then that is the number you need to divide by. So 80/100 and 100/80 and multiply both by 100 to get the percentage. In fractions it is 4/5 one way but 5/4 the other way.

Suppose you had something which you wanted to sell "tax free" and the tax was 25%. You still have collect and pay the tax so you reduce the before tax price by 20% then put on the 25% tax and get back to the before tax price.

English
Ok, I get that, but:shocked:, if I, even if I didn't word it correctly, was only refering to the difference(3.1ci) between the two numbers, was I correct? Or do I not get it yet? As in just the 3.1ci greater/less than. And not the percentage of the one whole number compared to the other whole number. Or doesn't it work that way?

English

06-19-2008, 17:20

Ok, I get that, but:shocked:, if I, even if I didn't word it correctly, was only refering to the difference(3.1ci) between the two numbers, was I correct? Or do I not get it yet? As in just the 3.1ci greater/less than. And not the percentage of the one whole number compared to the other whole number. Or doesn't it work that way?

I am not quitre sure what you are asking here. With the numbers 8.2 and 5.1 the difference is + or - 3.1. This is obviously a numerically bigger proportion or percentage of 5.1 than of 8.2 but if you are talking of the increase above the 5.1 it is the difference divided by 5.1. If you are talking of the decrease relative to the 8.2 it is the difference divided by 8.2. The extra wound volume relative to the 5.1 of the 9mm or the reduced wound volume relative to the 8.2 of the 10mm. These kinds of comparisons can be ratios, fractions or percentages but they all involve dividing by the number of the thing you are taking as the base of comparisson. In verbal terms the base is the denominator. As you were looking for the increase over the 9mm then it is the 9mm number that is the base and that is the denominator of the fraction or the number you divide by.

Another way of looking at the same numbers is to say that the 10mm has 161% of the wound volume of the 9mm. (That is, 8.2/5.1) If you add these up the 9mm increases at 100% per shot but the 10mm increases at 161% per shot. Two 10mms gives 322%, so more than three 9mms. But the base has now become three 9mms at 300% so the extra 22% is 22/3 = 7.33% more and so two 10mm are worth 7.33% more than three 9mms.

I don't know if this makes it any clearer.

English

glock20c10mm

06-20-2008, 00:18

Thanks English! I wasn't trying to be cute. Sometimes it takes me a bit to grasp certain aspects of math. The way you step by step spelled it out for me this time, I get it. I'm sure it seemed so obvious to you that you had to be thinking - What's wrong with this guy! Anyway, thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me.

Thanks again,
Craig

English

06-20-2008, 04:45

Craig,
You are welcome. I have never doubted your honesty and so I didn't think you were trying to be cute. It is a relatively simple thing but I think more than90 or even 95% don't really uderstand it. It is the education system that is at fault and not all of those individuals.

English

Rugby

06-20-2008, 15:56

MTS532

06-20-2008, 21:13

Another way of looking at the same numbers is to say that the 10mm has 161% of the wound volume of the 9mm. (That is, 8.2/5.1) If you add these up the 9mm increases at 100% per shot but the 10mm increases at 161% per shot. Two 10mms gives 322%, so more than three 9mms. But the base has now become three 9mms at 300% so the extra 22% is 22/3 = 7.33% more and so two 10mm are worth 7.33% more than three 9mms.

Sheesh! Just shoot the bad guy until he drops!

glock20c10mm

06-20-2008, 23:14

Sheesh! Just shoot the bad guy until he drops!
You're what hurts?

glock20c10mm

06-20-2008, 23:22

You are one pompous S.O.B.
I don't see that being pompous in moderation is necessarily a bad thing, not that I'm even agreeing with your above statement.:dunno: Though I do think the S.O.B. thing would always be bad.:shocked: Must you be so rash, or was it simply a bad day for you?:upeyes: OR, do you simply despise English?:faint:

Aeroscoper

06-20-2008, 23:37

Craig, nice post, hard to argue against facts :)

To the OP, consider stepping up to the 357 sig. Going from a 9mm to a 10mm is more of a jump then a step. Either way can't go wrong. Good luck!

Keith

glock20c10mm

06-21-2008, 00:03

Craig, nice post, hard to argue against facts :)
:thumbsup: I don't know if you read any further down, but certainly also be aware as English so aptly pointed out, I was low on the 10mm figures(specifically in terms of percentage), so the difference only distances the 10mm even further from the much weaker 9mm.

To the OP, consider stepping up to the 357 sig. Going from a 9mm to a 10mm is more of a jump then a step. Either way can't go wrong. Good luck!
Keith
Is that really true though? I don't really know, as I've never fired a 357SIG. But in terms of Glock pistols, the 357SIG frame guns are a bit narrower, whereas the 10mm frame guns are a bit wider. At least in my hand(s) I feel the wider grip of the 10mm frame does a great job of distributing the 10mm's recoil throughout the hand. Not to mention the fact that the greater weight of the 10mm Glock platforms helps a bit towards lessening felt recoil. Sure, it's all relative, but still?

Like I said, I've never shot a Glock chambered for 357SIG for direct comparison, but I've heard plenty of others here on GT claim that the recoil is enough, along with being quite snappy, to be considered more of a burden than using the round, at all ,is worth, whether they're speaking of follow-up shot times, or simply the pain itself.

I don't know, but sounds like something to take into consideration, as recoil is such a subjective thing anyway. People perceive recoil differently, peoples hand sizes/builds very considerably.....

English

06-21-2008, 12:15

Sheesh! Just shoot the bad guy until he drops!

Would you prefer the bad guy to drop after four shots or six? Six does have the advantage of giving you more practice but it probably isn't enough to have a useful effect. My feeling is that he has less chance of shooting you if he drops faster but you might disagree.

English

dango

09-08-2008, 10:30

Since my begining post on this thread,I purchased a,G17--G20--G30--!The 9mm. is probably my favorite to shoot.The 10mm.,just makes me smile,just became my night stand companion:supergrin: The .45,what can I say,american as apple-pie:cool:.I`ve put 3000-rnds.-9mm.-50-10mm.and 500-rnds.-.45,to date.I`m haveing fun and getting better by the day.I wish I had more time to practice but got to work.Ammo dosn`t grow on trees.:supergrin: