Poll: Do you support CCW in bars that do not post no CCW signs?

[HerrGlock]

Copy/Paste URL:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/jun/16/weapons_provision_surprises_leaders/

Do you support the recently changed law that allows concealed-carry permit-holders to bring loaded weapons into bars that don't have a no-handgun sign posted on its doors?

[HerrGlock]

Do you support the recently changed law that allows concealed-carry permit-holders to bring loaded weapons into bars that don’t have a no-handgun sign posted on its doors?

Yes. 53% 494
No. 45% 423
Not sure. 0% 6
Total 923

[Dean]

I support concealed carry EVERYWHERE for me.
As for others, I hope they have sense enough NOT to drink ethanol beverages while carrying a loaded firearm in the public. Far too much heartache comes of that.

[rvrctyrngr]

Do you support the recently changed law that allows concealed-carry permit-holders to bring loaded weapons into bars that don’t have a no-handgun sign posted on its doors?

Thanks for your vote.

<TABLE class="poll-results span-8"><TBODY><TR><TH class=span-3>Response</TH><TH class=span-3></TH><TH class="numeric span-1">Percent</TH><TH class="numeric span-1">Votes</TH></TR><TR class=row1><TD>Yes.</TD><TD class=bar-graph>
</TD><TD class=numeric>52%</TD><TD class=numeric>529</TD></TR><TR class=row2><TD>No.</TD><TD class=bar-graph>
</TD><TD class=numeric>46%</TD><TD class=numeric>473</TD></TR><TR class=row1><TD>Not sure.</TD><TD class=bar-graph>

</TD><TD class=numeric>0%</TD><TD class=numeric>8</TD></TR><TR><TD>Total </TD><TD class=numeric colSpan=3>1010 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Darkangel1846]

Well I guess it depends on statistics. How many incidence of gun play by legal CCW holders have taken place in bars? Rule of thumb.....Guns and Booze NEVER mix.
It much like the question of letting 18 year olds carry concealed handguns.

[3/325]

I've noticed no one has a problem with folks carrying car keys into a bar; with or without any posted "don't drink and drive" notices.

[Caver 60]

Just voted yes.

We're only ahead by 9 votes.

50% yes

49% no

[Lewsid 13]

Response Percent Votes
Yes. 50% 621
No. 49% 611
Not sure. 0% 9
Total 1241

Keep voting folks. It's too close for comfort!

[EdMan63]

Well Michigan law prohibits anyone to legally carry if YOUR blood alcohol is greater than .02. So if I go in a bar and have a couple of beers, I'm legally over the limit to carry. So if I'm in a bar to drink, even if the guns in the car, I couldn't legally carry after leaving.

So unless I'm just there to hang out, it really makes no difference, so I would have to say "I'm not sure".

[desco20]

I've never seen a place in my town or any of the other towns I've visited in my state, have signs saying No Firearms or something to that extent.

[barres]

I voted yes. What about the designated drivers? Those who get called to come pick up a drunk friend/coworker/child/brother/sister?

We're still ahead, but only by 10 votes. Yes 691. No 681. Not sure 11.

[Quiet]

Yes. 49% 725
No. 49% 716
Not sure. 1% 15
Total 1456

[Armed Infidel]

I'd have to say yes but I also do not personally ever drink while I'm CCW. :whistling:

[Surt]

So can one be the "Designated Driver" AND the "Designated Shooter" at the same time?

[passive101]

Not everyone drinks in bars either. I used to go there to hang out with friends, drink sodas, and shoot pool.

[failsafe]

In MO, if it a bar, less than 49% food, it is verbotten to carry...Unless you have the owner's or mgr's approval.....BUT...When having a gun in your vehicle, when stopped..There is no alochol limit, like for a DUI...meaing the same rules do not apply...All it takes, is for the officer to determine, that the driver is impared...

[Yellowfin]

I support carry rights everywhere as well. As with driving, responsibility is the key. I see plenty of morons posting comments who don't like carry rights--to them I say learn what you're talking about or move to Cuba.

[kensteele]

<a href="http://content.screencast.com/media/67a79903-cfa2-4514-b6f7-4cbe3528373b_3594832d-60d6-445a-9000-a5ac6dceb4f6_static_0_0_00000002.png"><img src="http://content.screencast.com/media/67a79903-cfa2-4514-b6f7-4cbe3528373b_3594832d-60d6-445a-9000-a5ac6dceb4f6_static_0_0_00000002.png" width="620" height="343" border="0" /></a>

[Acujeff]

Poll still open. Go vote yes.

Yes. 49% 767
No. 49% 760
Not sure. 1% 17
Total 1544

[Saltcreek]

NO.
In Ohio you cannot carry in a bar or establishment serving alcohol. I am NRA and have a CCW. I also am retired LEO. I have been in to many good fights in bars, to many knives, clubs and guns in a bar to count. I can say even if you have a clean record and a CCW, too many times I've seen "if you been drinkin' you ain't thinkin'". In a bar there are too many temptations to prove how big your gonads are. If you are expecting trouble in a bar (likely), then stay home or go to Chucky Cheese.

[Lee-online]

Response Percent Votes
Yes. 49% 771
No. 49% 763
Not sure. 1% 17
Total 1551

I carry into the bars here in PA, there are no laws prohibiting it and i have never herd of a problem because of people doing it. I think its safer to keep my weapon on me rather than leave it in my truck.
BTW, i dont drink more than a beer or two with my food.

[Thx-1138]

Vote Early. Vote Often.

[literaltrance]

My rule of thumb is, if I were ever to enter a bar with a piece, NO ALCOHOL!

Well, maybe one beer if I'm having a meal.

At any rate, it would be pretty clear to my friends something was up since I'd be drinking nothing but soda and water.

Not that this has ever happened before!!! ;o ;o

Aren't laws regarding weapons in drinking establishments state-specific? I don't remember seeing anything specific about them in the Missouri Laws I've read (then again, I could have completely missed them somehow).

[Buki192327]

NO.
In Ohio you cannot carry in a bar or establishment serving alcohol. I am NRA and have a CCW. I also am retired LEO. I have been in to many good fights in bars, to many knives, clubs and guns in a bar to count. I can say even if you have a clean record and a CCW, too many times I've seen "if you been drinkin' you ain't thinkin'". In a bar there are too many temptations to prove how big your gonads are. If you are expecting trouble in a bar (likely), then stay home or go to Chucky Cheese.

I agree 1000%

[Yellowfin]

If you are expecting trouble in a bar (likely), then stay home or go to Chucky Cheese. Does Chucky Cheese support carry rights? Perhaps they stipulate your sidearm not be a mouse gun.

[Saltcreek]

Does Chucky Cheese support carry rights? Perhaps they stipulate your sidearm not be a mouse gun.

Well I guess if I go to Chucky Cheese I could load the first chamber with rat shot. :cheers:

[MEM10G23]

What about a regualar reasurant like Chillis thats has a bar but isnt a bar?

I dont see why I should I should have to leave my weapon in the car so I can sit down and have a nice New York stip

[degoodman]

Lets look at Pennsylvania for example.

You can carry a gun in a bar, and there is no restriction on consuming alcohol while carrying.

Hear of many incidents where lawful weapons carriers started fights? Shot the place up in a drunken rage? Had a ton of stupid AD's? And remember, they can carry a gun while drinking.

While I am absolutely of the opinion that alcohol and gunpowder don't mix any better than alcohol and gasoline, I don't see any reason why a sober person shouldn't be able to carry a gun virtually anywhere. If you want to restrict carrying, restrict it to no carrying over a .04 or whatever the legal BAC is for a commercial carrier.

Knives, clubs, drunken people and bar fights are reasons not to go to "bars" at all. If you feel the need to go to a place where drunk people hang out expecting anything but problems, you're too stupid to carry a gun at all. But if you want to stop off at the neighborhood tavern for a plate of wings and a glass of suds after work, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to carry your roscoe like you would anywhere else.

[Caver 60]

Aren't laws regarding weapons in drinking establishments state-specific? I don't remember seeing anything specific about them in the Missouri Laws I've read (then again, I could have completely missed them somehow).

Go to:

http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C571.HTM

Then click on RSMO 571.107

Scroll down to para 1 sub para (7) for your answer.

[Saltcreek]

...While I am absolutely of the opinion that alcohol and gunpowder don't mix any better than alcohol and gasoline, I don't see any reason why a sober person shouldn't be able to carry a gun virtually anywhere. If you want to restrict carrying, restrict it to no carrying over a .04 or whatever the legal BAC is for a commercial carrier.
....

I do have mixed feelings on all this. While I am a strong supporter of CCW and 2nd Amendment, I have too much every night experience with violence in bars, and injured by persons who were "not going to be told what to do". It is very hard in the law to distinguish between "the friendly tavern" and MANY other bars. I really think putting a limit on alcohol like you mentioned, .04 BAC won't work any more than telling people in a bar to not drink and drive. We have do drunk drivers because the law sets a limit, right? It comes down to common sense - if you are going to consume mood altering brain anesthetic, leave the gun home. Trouble is, too many do not have that common sense.

[literaltrance]

Lets look at Pennsylvania for example.

You can carry a gun in a bar, and there is no restriction on consuming alcohol while carrying.

Hear of many incidents where lawful weapons carriers started fights? Shot the place up in a drunken rage? Had a ton of stupid AD's? And remember, they can carry a gun while drinking.

While I am absolutely of the opinion that alcohol and gunpowder don't mix any better than alcohol and gasoline, I don't see any reason why a sober person shouldn't be able to carry a gun virtually anywhere. If you want to restrict carrying, restrict it to no carrying over a .04 or whatever the legal BAC is for a commercial carrier.

Knives, clubs, drunken people and bar fights are reasons not to go to "bars" at all. If you feel the need to go to a place where drunk people hang out expecting anything but problems, you're too stupid to carry a gun at all. But if you want to stop off at the neighborhood tavern for a plate of wings and a glass of suds after work, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to carry your roscoe like you would anywhere else.

I am of this mindset 100%

I do think, however, there is something to be said about CYA (cover your ass). It would not be hard for a prosecuting team to bring up the fact that you were "under the influence" because you had a glass of Bud with your chili fries just before you plugged a thug who was stabbing grandma at the other end of the bar (God forbid this scenario were ever to be played out). This is why it is absolutely important to know when lethal force is necessary. That way, a jury would be more concerned about lacerations in the little old lady rather than the empty pint glass next to your dinner. Would you be ok in this situation? Probably. But I think it's without question that your case is rock solid had that empty pint not been a part of the scenario at all.

Something to think about.

[akgunnut]

I stay away from bars as much as I can except on very special and rare occasions. I never go to bars alone, always with at least one friend. People will always bring weapons into places where they're not supposed to be, so I support CCW in bars 100%. Most CCW holders know better than to drink while packing, but there are a few of those who think they can do whatever they want.

[KusoJijii]

NO.
In Ohio you cannot carry in a bar or establishment serving alcohol. I am NRA and have a CCW. I also am retired LEO. I have been in to many good fights in bars, to many knives, clubs and guns in a bar to count. I can say even if you have a clean record and a CCW, too many times I've seen "if you been drinkin' you ain't thinkin'". In a bar there are too many temptations to prove how big your gonads are. If you are expecting trouble in a bar (likely), then stay home or go to Chucky Cheese.

I worked at CEC's for 7 years (first job at 16 through college)

Chuck E Cheese's serves alcohol.

I have seen a few fist fights at Chuck E Cheese's.

What about this story: http://www.local6.com/news/14580461/detail.html


looks like you are staying home the rest of your life...

[EdMan63]

I am of this mindset 100%

I do think, however, there is something to be said about CYA (cover your ass). It would not be hard for a prosecuting team to bring up the fact that you were "under the influence" because you had a glass of Bud with your chili fries just before you plugged a thug who was stabbing grandma at the other end of the bar (God forbid this scenario were ever to be played out). This is why it is absolutely important to know when lethal force is necessary. That way, a jury would be more concerned about lacerations in the little old lady rather than the empty pint glass next to your dinner. Would you be ok in this situation? Probably. But I think it's without question that your case is rock solid had that empty pint not been a part of the scenario at all.

Something to think about.

I guess another question to think about is if Grandma was getting stabbed at the end of the bar, just because you carry a gun is it your place to do anything at all. A CCW permit does not give you the right to assume the role of the police unless she's YOUR grandma. A SD shooting first and foremost means YOUR life was in danger. What if he had a friend standing behind you with a gun to your back? Have you completely assessed the situation? I'm not ranting but even in my SD class some guys ask if he's in the drug store and it gets robbed should he pull out his gun and cap the guy. That type of thinking to me is dangerous.

[Yellowfin]

There is nothing to say that the person who stabs the grandma isn't going to stab you next, so it's still SD.

[literaltrance]

My rule of thumb is, if I were ever to enter a bar with a piece, NO ALCOHOL!

Well, maybe one beer if I'm having a meal.

At any rate, it would be pretty clear to my friends something was up since I'd be drinking nothing but soda and water.

Not that this has ever happened before!!! ;o ;o

Aren't laws regarding weapons in drinking establishments state-specific? I don't remember seeing anything specific about them in the Missouri Laws I've read (then again, I could have completely missed them somehow).

Never thought I'd have a situation where I'd be quoting myself, but here it is.

So I took a look at Missouri Law regarding concealed carry and the restrictions as to where it's prohibited. In this case, I wated to see if Missouri Law mentioned bars specifically. Initially I was sure that it wasn't in there, but apparently I am blind. They do:

571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No driver's license or nondriver's license containing a concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:

(...#1-6 lists government buildings basically, now onto #7...)

(7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. This subdivision does not prohibit the possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the establishment and shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. Nothing in this subdivision authorizes any individual who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement to possess any firearm while intoxicated;

"Great!" I'm thinking to myself, I've broken the law about 20 times now in the past 3-4 months! But keep reading!

2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a** concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense....

So basically, I can go into a bar with a CCW, and if it's discovered that I have one, I may be asked to leave. Failure to comply would then make the situation unlawful. Obviously, being drunk with a firearm is a different story entirely (and incredibly dumb, so don't do it), but I can live with these terms.

Check your state laws regarding this topic! You may be pleasantly surprised.

[LittleRedToyota]

A CCW permit does not give you the right to assume the role of the police unless she's YOUR grandma.

in PA, at least, you can use the same amount of force, under the same conditions, to protect a third-party as you can use to protect yourself. and that third-party does not have to be related to you.

has nothing to do with "assuming the role of the police" and everything to do with helping a fellow human being in need.

if you see an old woman being stabbed to death, what is the right thing to do? try to stop it or not?

to me, the answer to that question is blatantly obvious. but to others, i guess it is not.

[Yellowfin]

It would be nice to be able to have suppressors legalized so not everyone in the room has to lose their hearing.

[literaltrance]

I guess another question to think about is if Grandma was getting stabbed at the end of the bar, just because you carry a gun is it your place to do anything at all. A CCW permit does not give you the right to assume the role of the police unless she's YOUR grandma. A SD shooting first and foremost means YOUR life was in danger. What if he had a friend standing behind you with a gun to your back? Have you completely assessed the situation? I'm not ranting but even in my SD class some guys ask if he's in the drug store and it gets robbed should he pull out his gun and cap the guy. That type of thinking to me is dangerous.

Look at the situation for what it is.

First of all, someone getting robbed and someone getting stabbed are entirely different things.

My grandma or not, if badguy is stabbing an old lady for everyone to see and this is happeneing within 21 feet of me, what are the chances he's going to turn around and stab me? Hrm, sounds like my life is in danger.

Knowing this, would you still neglect to act?

[Quiet]

Yes. 50% 842
No. 48% 799
Not sure. 1% 18
Total 1659

[EdMan63]

in PA, at least, you can use the same amount of force, under the same conditions, to protect a third-party as you can use to protect yourself. and that third-party does not have to be related to you.

has nothing to do with "assuming the role of the police" and everything to do with helping a fellow human being in need.

if you see an old woman being stabbed to death, what is the right thing to do? try to stop it or not?

to me, the answer to that question is blatantly obvious. but to others, i guess it is not.

Don't get my wrong, I'm not saying that Grandma should get beaten or stabbed with no intervention. But while we try and play out "what if " scenario's my point was only to assess the situation because you could still potentially be killed unknowingly. I completely agree with you in regards to knowing when to use deadly force.

I also understand that you can use deadly force to protect someone else. But think of this... you see a woman getting beaten or stabbed by a guy whatever. You shoot the guy. The guy was her boyfriend. He has a history of kicking her a** and then they make up. You save her life. Later on when it's time to testify, she's suddenly remorseful that her boyfriend is gone and is now angry with you. How is she going to testify? Hopefully in your favor still. But you get my point.

Now a situation like Lubys, or VT or anything like that I say blast away. I would just hate to see or hear about anybody here catching a wrongful case or worse yet get killed trying to do the right thing.

[Caver 60]

Never thought I'd have a situation where I'd be quoting myself, but here it is.

So I took a look at Missouri Law regarding concealed carry and the restrictions as to where it's prohibited. In this case, I wated to see if Missouri Law mentioned bars specifically. Initially I was sure that it wasn't in there, but apparently I am blind. They do:

(7) Any establishment licensed to dispense intoxicating liquor or nonintoxicating beer for consumption on the premises, which portion is primarily devoted to that purpose, without the consent of the owner or manager. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to the licensee of said establishment. The provisions of this subdivision shall not apply to any bona fide restaurant open to the general public having dining facilities for not less than fifty persons and that receives at least fifty-one percent of its gross annual income from the dining facilities by the sale of food. This subdivision does not prohibit the possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of the establishment and shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. Nothing in this subdivision authorizes any individual who has been issued a concealed carry endorsement to possess any firearm while intoxicated;

Obviously, being drunk with a firearm is a different story entirely (and incredibly dumb, so don't do it), but I can live with these terms.

Check your state laws regarding this topic! You may be pleasantly surprised.

But the question in Missouri is what's "drunk?" As I read it a sip of communion wine can make you "intoxicated," if the officer chooses to push it, since there is no established BAC for "intoxicated" in Missouri. I'm not talking about driving a car, I'm talking about "intoxicated" for purposes of this law.

I know a person who was arrested for public intoxication while walking down a public sidewalk after having exactly two 12 oz beers. He beat it in court, but he had the trip to the pokey and the hassle of the court actions. If he had been carrying even with a license, it probably would have been worse.

[Keith_H1]

I'm new here and don't want to ruffle any feathers because I strongly believe in my right to carry, but....................................H*LL no! Not in a bar. I was a bouncer for a couple of years in the early 1990's and I can promise you that's a bad combination. I can't count the times that I'm sure if an otherwise rational, decent clear thinking guy had been armed he'd have blown some guy away in a drunken rage over some bar tramp or a fight over NASCAR or a ball team. I've seen some crazy reasons for major bloody fights. I've seen husbands and wives throw some of the most brutal punches of all but when you try to break it up they go into "GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY WIFE/HUSBAND" mode and the women can be the most dangerous (sorry ladies). She can hate his guts until YOU lay a hand on him. What if one, or BOTH, of them are armed? They're already enraged AND drunk. Rational thinking is one of the first things to go. One night, a guy we threw out went home and came back with a shotgun. Some people were coming in and telling us there was a guy just sitting in his truck, with what looked like a gun propped up on the transmission hump, just staring wide eyed at the back door which was where we regularly had to take out the trash cans from behind the bar. We called the cops. He went to jail. I hate to think about what could have happened and I quit bouncing shortly after that night. It's just not a good idea to carry in a bar unless you go with the intentions of being the designated driver and then it would be abused. I'm just gonna have to say NO all the way around for bar/nightclub carrying.

Here in tennessee they're trying to get it to where we can carry in places like O'charlie's, Chili's, etc. Those tend to be a little more civilized in the bar area because of the restaurant atmosphere. Of course, there's still the potential for an otherwise minor incident to become full tilt boogie insanity when a few too many drinks are involved. Right now we can't carry ANYwhere that actually serves alcohol on the property. That's just about the only place I can think of where carrying is innapropriate.

Keith

[LittleRedToyota]

H*LL no! Not in a bar. I was a bouncer for a couple of years in the early 1990's and I can promise you that's a bad combination.

i also worked my way through college as a bouncer...

and i can promise you that, here in PA you can carry in a bar...you can carry while you are fall down drunk...and, in spite of that, we really do not have problems with people shooting each other in bars. it just doesn't happen.

those are the empirically supported facts.

i've seen all that stuff you have, too...but i never saw a single case of someone shooting someone else in a bar...and you very rarely even hear about it on the news in PA. and, in the once every 10 years or so that you do hear about it, typically it is someone who leaves the bar, goes home and gets a gun, and then comes back.

CCWers shooting people in bars is a problem that just plain does not exist in reality.

[literaltrance]

But the question in Missouri is what's "drunk?" As I read it a sip of communion wine can make you "intoxicated," if the officer chooses to push it, since there is no established BAC for "intoxicated" in Missouri. I'm not talking about driving a car, I'm talking about "intoxicated" for purposes of this law.

I know a person who was arrested for public intoxication while walking down a public sidewalk after having exactly two 12 oz beers. He beat it in court, but he had the trip to the pokey and the hassle of the court actions. If he had been carrying even with a license, it probably would have been worse.

Yup, it's definitely a grey area. I just wanted to point out that Missouri Law, while citing a "bar-type" establishment as part of its list of restricted locations, does not necessarily make you a criminal should you have a CCW on aforementioned premesis. If the owner discovers the CCW and sees fit, he/she will ask you to leave, and you get the option to do so.

I agree, drinking while carrying (even just one) is a bad idea simply because you're just adding to a list of disadvantages on any potential case against you. This is why I had mentioned the whole "CYA" bit earlier in this thread near the top of this page.

[SIGSAREBETTER]

50 to 48 our favor with 1659 votes cast.

[Keith_H1]

Man, I'm glad I didn't get beaten up too badly over this one.....yet. Yeah, in general I can see it's not a given that something would happen and as mad as I've been myself at times I've never even had faint thought of shooting another person. I can see your point and won't even begin to argue against it because, as stated before, I know that "in general" you're right. I still feel like, and I know it's just a hypothetical point, it heightens the possibilities for something bad to happen. Also, it was a redneck country bar that I worked at with alot of fights. I suppose a dance bar would be a little tamer. As far as any place else, I'm all for it. A guy intent on going into the mall, church, post office (employees excluded), restaurant, etc. hell bent on killing alot of people or just the wife or girlfriend that dumped him isn't even going to glance at the "no firearms" sign as he locks and loads while crossing the threshhold. Why shouldn't a legally permitted carrier be able to stop him? Maybe one of these days these businesses will wake up. Until then, I'd rather take my chances paying a fine or facing a judge for "forgetting" to leave the gun in the car before I shot the guy that was shooting up the place than be one of the obituary listings because of a sign posted on the door.

[LittleRedToyota]

I still feel like, and I know it's just a hypothetical point, it heightens the possibilities for something bad to happen.

the problem is that not allowing carry in bars also heightens the possibilities of somethng bad happenning.

say someone who doesn't even drink goes into the bar to eat wings (i do this a lot, btw)...and some drunken idiot thinks he is looking at his girlfriend the wrong way or something and follows the guy out of the bar and jumps him--with a knife or whatever--on his way back to his car.

because of this law, that guy is now defenseless against the armed attacker.

or, because of this law, our non-drinking, wing-eating friend leaves his pistol in his car. the car is stolen. now a bad guy has a gun that cannot be traced back to him.

Also, it was a redneck country bar that I worked at with alot of fights. I suppose a dance bar would be a little tamer.

"dance bars" are most definitely not immune from fights. in fact, around here at least, the "dance clubs" have many more fights than the neighborhood dive bars.

[Mugenlude]

Trouble is, too many do not have that common sense.I haven't read all of the replies after this thread yet, but I just want to add that people with CCW permits generally don't fall into this category of people with lack of "common sense". You are held to higher standard, you have more responsibility than people who choose to not carry... that being said I think you have to let these people make their own decisions.

[CowboyKen]

Well, I guess it is time for me to jump in.

In Nevada you can carry and drink in bars, restaurants, etc. while carrying.
The legal limit for DUI is 0.08 BAC. The legal limit for "Possession of firearm when under influence of alcohol," is "a concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his blood or breath."

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec257

When Nevada lowered the limit for DUI to keep getting federal highway money they did not change the firearms law.

This happened about three weeks ago: May 26, 2008 Winnemucca police statement on bar shootings
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880526010

No mention of how much if any the "Reno man" may have had to drink. It was just "a justifiable homicide as outlined in Nevada Revised Statute 200.120 and 200.160."

I love Nevada.

It is not about alcohol. It is about acting like an adult. If you cannot handle booze, don't drink. IMHO, if you cannot act like an adult, all of the time, you should not have access to firearms.

The guy who came into the bar in Winnemucca and started shooting people, killing two, was probably sober. The guy who stopped him, shot and killed him, probably had had a drink or two. Who was the bad guy and who was the good guy?

Ken

[Keith_H1]

There are valid points here any way you look at it and I can't see where any of these posts are black or white, right or wrong. Rights, responsibilities and common sense are all part of the picture so there's probably no definitive correct answer no matter how much it's discussed or debated. All I can say for sure is that, even though it goes against the point I've tried to make, it's a good thing the guy in reno had his gun on him and ended it before more people died.