UT: West Valley City Man Ordered to the Ground for Open Carrying

[HerrGlock]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9617824
Gun-toting citizen says WVC cops harassed him
By María Villaseñor
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 06/17/2008 10:19:57 PM MDT

Posted: 10:18 PM- WEST VALLEY CITY - With his Smith & Wesson .40 caliber, semi-automatic holstered on his right hip, Travis Deveraux addressed the mayor and City Council on Tuesday.

He has been harassed by West Valley City police for carrying that gun and treated like a criminal, Deveraux said.

"A criminal does not want [police] attention, and they will not openly carry a gun," he said.

With 10 other gun-toting civilians - who came from as far as Bountiful, Santaquin and Lehi - to support him, Deveraux told the council that their police department has consistently overreacted to his gun carrying. And in one occasion last year, he said, the police officers violated his civil rights.

Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "was informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed." The officer called the West Valley City Police Department, Deveraux continued, three squad cars arrived, and he was detained and his gun taken from him - then, after a few minutes, he was released.

Those were violations of his federal and state constitutional rights, said the Swede who became an American citizen this January. And they are civil rights abuses that he has only encountered in West Valley City, Deveraux said.

"I don't blame them for being a little bit extra careful," he said, noting that the crime rate is high in Utah's second largest city, "but there's a line they crossed between being a little bit careful and a little bit too careful."

Assistant Police Chief Craig Black said he hadn't been aware of the incident involving Deveraux until hearing about it at the City Council meeting. He said there would be a review of the case by the professional standards board to determined what happened.

Matt Murray of North Salt Lake said he has never been bothered by any police officers for openly carrying his gun. Kevin Jensen of Santaquin said he has had a few police encounters that were "very professional . . . they just want to make sure you're not a nutcase." But Jeramiah McDonald of Lehi said he has had problems similar to Deveraux's.

McDonald said that because he is only 19 years old, he can't apply for a concealed weapons permit and his only option is to openly carry his guns. Because he felt police officers violated his civil rights, McDonald has filed a lawsuit.

Deveraux said he doesn't want to sue anyone, or get an officer fired or fined. He wants West Valley City officers to be trained, or get more training on gun rights.

Mayor Dennis Nordfelt encouraged Deveraux to file a complaint with the professional standards review board, which oversees any resident problems with the police department.

Black said his police officers are trained on gun laws.

(Comments link at the bottom of the page)

Letters to the Editor:
letters@sltrib.com

[Yrdawg]

Black said his police officers are trained on gun laws.


Trained on gun laws as their dept sees them. On how they and their chief see them. If they were trained on the actual legality we wouldn't be reading this.

[Bren]

Black said his police officers are trained on gun laws.


Trained on gun laws as their dept sees them. On how they and their chief see them. If they were trained on the actual legality we wouldn't be reading this.

I doubt the police think open carry is illegal, it's just one of those things that is unusual enough conduct that they have to find out the person's intent. Imagine somebody walking down the street with an ax in his hand - not illegal and nobody thinks it is, but it's unusual so the police want to find out whether the person is going to do some logging or chop up his ex-wife.

[Clyde in CO]

Deveraux said he was walking around his neighborhood to exercise last December, when he was stopped by a Granite School District officer and "was informed that if I touched my gun, I would be killed."

Go figure.

[Patronus]

West Valley City Man Ordered to the Ground for Open Carrying

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=3559401

Gun owners complain about treatment in West Valley City
June 17th, 2008 @ 10:05pm
Sarah Dallof reporting

A group of gun owners is upset with the West Valley City police force. They claim officers are treating them unfairly because they choose to carry their weapons in shoulder and hip holsters, completely out in the open.

In Utah, there are places no one but law enforcement can take a gun, and there are restrictions, for example people without a concealed carry permit can't openly carry a loaded gun, but much of the time, it's allowed.

Jared Belcher is among those who choose to carry a gun. "It's a Bursa Thunder 380 I carry just about every day," he says. He carries it on his belt, out in the open. He said, "Most people, surprisingly, don't notice I have it."

Belcher says he's never had a problem taking the gun anywhere, but he's concerned because others he's met through the organization opencarry.org have. Travis Deveraux says he was walking in his West Valley neighborhood when an officer pulled up, pulled out her gun and ordered him on the ground.

"At the end there were a total of eight officers who'd cuffed me up, taken my firearm. But they let me go because there was nothing wrong I'd done," Deveraux said.

Belcher and Deveraux joined more than a dozen other gun owners tonight at the West Valley city council meeting to voice concerns about how the city's police force has handled several situations.

Scott Thompson, who also openly carries his gun, said, "A lot of the officers seem to be ignorant of the fact that carrying a firearm openly in public is perfectly legal in Utah, if done properly."

Wayne Pyle, the city manager for West Valley City, said, "Until today I'd never heard there was any concern, complaint or incident." He had limited time to research the cases but says it appears West Valley Police handled them appropriately. He adds that in any situation where officers know someone has a gun, they're extra cautious. "This is a different day and age than the late 19th century. It's not common to see people wearing side-arms on the street," he said.

After hearing the group's comments, the city council recommended the citizens file their complaints with the city's Professional Standards Review Board, which investigates concerns against officers.

E-mail: sdallof@ksl.com



If that isn't enough, read some of the comments -- there are 125 so far.

[WIG19]

If that isn't enough, read some of the comments -- there are 125 so far.Yeah, those headed for Tijuana fast enough...

:upeyes:

[TylerDurden]

I open carry in Utah once in a while and have never been hassled, but then again, folks tend to think I'm a LEO (sigh).

[rvrctyrngr]

I open carry in Utah once in a while and have never been hassled, but then again, folks tend to think I'm a LEO (sigh).

Nah...just gang-bangers at the mall. :tongueout:

[TylerDurden]

Nah...just gang-bangers at the mall. :tongueout:

Can't a man have a buzz cut and a pair of aviators without being harassed? :cool:

[doubletap1]

:popcorn:

[TylerDurden]

I can understand why WVPD would be overly cautious though, given the neighborhood.

My neck of the woods is pretty tame... except for the recent string of armed robberies.

What is the world coming to when Utah isn't even safe?

[rvrctyrngr]

<---- Has buzzcut (hides the gray), wears aviators with 'driver' lenses...hasn't worn a badge in eons.

Apparently, not at the mall where you live, Occifer! :rofl:

Acutally, since your original thread on the subject, I was curious how things would have played out had you been OCing.

Can't a man have a buzz cut and a pair of aviators without being harassed? :cool:

[RussP]

http://deseretnews.com/img/mobile-header-article-dn.gif (http://deseretnews.com/home/1,5125,,00.html)


West Valley hears defense of gun-carrying

By Amy Choate-Nielsen (http://deseretnews.com/site/staff/1,5231,2553,00.html)
Deseret News
Published: June 18, 2008

WEST VALLEY CITY — As Travis Deveraux stood at a podium and talked to the West Valley City Council Tuesday night, he looked as comfortable with his Smith and Wesson .40 caliber handgun proudly hanging on his hip as the mayor with his gavel.


It didn't hurt that Deveraux, a West Valley resident, was flanked by 10 other men openly carrying their guns to make a statement in favor of their Second Amendment rights to bear arms. Deveraux, who says he's been handcuffed and harassed because of his gun several times in the last six months in the city, made a plea to West Valley's council to reconsider how the police respond to situations similar to his.

"It's an awesome opportunity to live in a country where we have rights to carry a firearm," Deveraux told the council. "I appreciate the fantastic job the police officers do when they need to respond to dangerous situations, but I must demand that a change needs to be made to address certain issues — to protect our rights."

Deveraux has a license to carry his weapon, but he's been confronted more than once because of it. In December, Deveraux was taking a walk around the block when a Granite school district police officer drew his gun on him and demanded he lie on the ground because the gun was openly displayed.

A few months later, Deveraux was in a bank with his gun in its holster, but police officers were summoned, Deveraux said. The officers threatened to file charges against Deveraux for having the gun but never did.

"I don't mind an officer approaching me and asking me questions, but I do mind when they put a gun on me and handcuff me for no apparent reason," Deveraux said. "What they should be afraid of is the criminal with the hidden gun."

Some of Deveraux's supporters said West Valley City has an agenda against those who are legally allowed to openly carry their weapons, but Deveraux enthusiastically pointed out that permitted weapons carriers and police officers are "on the same side."

"We're good guys and cops are good guys," Deveraux said. "We want to help each other out. That's what it's all about."

West Valley City assistant police chief Craig Black said he only heard of Deveraux's complaints on Tuesday. The city's protocol for responding to 911 calls of a person with a gun is to send two cars to the scene, Black said.

The officers don't know what they'll encounter when they arrive, so they are trained to respond in a way that will keep them safe, Black said.

"Our officers don't know what they're responding to when they get that 911 call (reporting a man with a gun)," Black said. "People who are responsible enough to carry guns should understand that they may cause alarm. The officers are going to respond in a manner to protect the community they serve and their own safety."

West Valley city manager Wayne Pyle said the city respects the residents' rights to carry weapons, but there won't likely be any policy changes because of the complaints. Pyle said police officers should always be polite and professional in the way they deal with the public and the department may do more training about laws pertaining to gun permits.

"Training is always an issue," Pyle said. "It's always good to have these issues brought to our attention. If this brings more awareness and knowledge of the law for the officers, then that's a good thing."


<HR width=250>
E-mail: achoate@desnews.com (achoate@desnews.com)</I>
© 2008 Deseret News Publishing Company | All rights reserved

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,700235696,00.html

[Dean]

More and more stories are appearing on Glocktalk of open carriers being arrested. Perhaps a CCW badge of some sort would cut down on that. No. It would have to be an "Open Carry Badge" of some sort. What else can open carriers do to stop themselves from being arrested?

[RussP]

More and more stories are appearing on Glocktalk of open carriers being arrested. Perhaps a CCW badge of some sort would cut down on that. No. It would have to be an "Open Carry Badge" of some sort. What else can open carriers do to stop themselves from being arrested?
Educate others!

[kastiron]

More and more stories are appearing on Glocktalk of open carriers being arrested. Perhaps a CCW badge of some sort would cut down on that. No. It would have to be an "Open Carry Badge" of some sort. What else can open carriers do to stop themselves from being arrested?

I believe the first few minutes of the Utah carry class instructed that NO BADGE can be worn while carrying.. My instructor actually sells CCW badges in his home state of MN though to be worn next to a holster by those that feel it helps if seen. :upeyes:

I don't know what a legally open carrying person can do to protect themselves from people and law enforcement that are unfamiliar with the laws...

Seems like something that should not be in question, doesn't it?

[Resqu2]

I'm not a sue happy guy but I think if this kept happening to me and nothing was done to prevent it then I think a lawsuit would be in order. If their not hit in the pocket book then they have no reason to change and by their own admittance their not going to change the way they respond to these type of calls.

[fgutie35]

Open Carry is a double edge sword. On one side, one wants to practice his/her rights to bear arms. On the other side, peolpe cannot tell between a good or bad person, so they panic and call 911(emergency call) to which cops respond to the degree of the call (distress call) so they act and ask questions later as a safety procedure which in turn it looks like harrasment to the peson carrying the weapon. This is going to be happening all of the time until there is an involvement of the media to educate the public about the different laws in a specific state. Unfortunately, the mayority of the media are anti-gun so therefore there is no effort to inform the public about something they do not consent to begin with. On the other side, if the media informs the public that is OK to open carry as long you have a license, imagine how many criminals are going to take advantage of it to carry openly and comit crimes, because we come back to the vicius cycle of "people can't tell between a good person and a bad person".

[Prometheus77]

On the other side, if the media informs the public that is OK to open carry as long you have a license, imagine how many criminals are going to take advantage of it to carry openly and comit crimes

Thats asinine. It's like the media telling people it's legal to concealed carry with a permit/license... *oh-noes* they are all going to advantage of concealed carry now too!

Preposterous!

States like Vermont (no permit needed), Arizona, Nevada, Montana, Indiana, PA, AK, NC, GA and many more..... they all get by just fine with OC.

It's just the cops being @$$es.

[Yellowfin]

A t-shirt with big block letters saying YES IT'S LEGAL would be rather nice. Anyone want to get a batch done?

[Gunnut 45/454]

fgutie35
I disagree! What needs to happen as far as LEO's that work in OC states is they first need to be trained to know it's legal and people are going to do it! Then when they get the Histarical 911 call they ask the oppropreite questions!! Like is the person firing the weapon? Is he threatening anyone with the weapon? And if the answers are no he's just walking down the street or walking his dog then they politely tell the caller unless he's firing/ or threatening you with the weapon it's perfectly legal to walk down the street armed!

[Nitro66DS]

I wonder if the harassed person could use the Freedom of Information Act to get the names of the 911 callers and then file a complaint about a false report?

[Resqu2]

Quoted post deleted

DT, some of us OC not for fun as you want to put it but because our state laws makes us OC in certain situations even though we have our CCW permit.

As for the profit part, if I continued to get a gun put in my face for obeying the law and the Sheriff wouldn't put a stop to it then what would you suggest doing????????? Any better ideals?????

[doubletap1]

DT, some of us OC not for fun as you want to put it but because our state laws makes us OC in certain situations even though we have our CCW permit.

Like what situations? When can you not CC?


As for the profit part, if I continued to get a gun put in my face for obeying the law and the Sheriff wouldn't put a stop to it then what would you suggest doing????????? Any better ideals?????

Sue for attorney fees, relative injuctions, and $1. If the court awards you more then give it to a good charity. You won't look like just another lowlife trying to make a few easy bucks.

[fgutie35]

Gunnut, Nitro66DS said it all "False Report" Do you have any idea how many exagerated false reports are given to 911 dispatchers by paranoic anti-gunners and also senior citizens? s**t just last night, my neighbor got a visit from the cops because supposedly some one called (winter texan across the street) claiming there were loud noises in his house that sounded like some one was being beaten. My neighbor had a cook out and he had loud music playing, so basically the person that complained blew it out of proportion thinking it would be more effective in persuading the cops tell the neighbor to lower the volume on the music. Even the cop made a comment about her cause she is well known in the force for making exagerated calls to 911 for stupid things. So now you know wha I meant.

[fgutie35]

Prometius, if you see two individuals walking into a bank and both are dressed similar both have a gun holstered to their hip and both look like decent people but the only difference is that one is going to make a change to his account and the other one is about to rob the bank. How are you going to indentify who is the bad guy before any of them gives a clue of what their intentions are? Some people have the wrongful ideology that once every law abiden citizen carries a weapon openly, crime will disapear. Criminals would always be criminals, may work as a deterrent but won't eliminate the problem, it would only make criminals think twice before robing someone but some wil still take the risk. In my opinion, the only way we are going to succeed in keeping guns on the hands of law abiden citizens and out of the hands of crimials, is going to be by having random checkpoints throughout the city or town of every city and every town to disarm those who are carrying guns illegally. That is exactly what is happening as we speak ten mile from here across the border(due to the cartel wars). Only problem with Mexico is the corruption of the officers doing the checks to turn a blind eye for a couple of "pesos"! which I doubt it would happen here.

[Resqu2]

Like what situations? When can you not CC?



Sue for attorney fees, relative injuctions, and $1. If the court awards you more then give it to a good charity. You won't look like just another lowlife trying to make a few easy bucks.


Say your going out for the evening and your trip consist of a sit down meal, only OC is allowed in VA, permit or not if they serve alcohol and everyone does.

I don't totally disagree about the money part and donating it is an ideal, but if you don't make it hurt then they won't change.

Here is an example, do you drive the speed limit? if you do it's because you know you will get a ticket and it will cost YOU money. If the fine was just a dollar for a speeding ticket where would our roads be today?

BTW, I don't plan an suing anyone, I don't have problems while OC'ing here in the great state of VA

[LoadToadBoss]

I wonder if the harassed person could use the Freedom of Information Act to get the names of the 911 callers and then file a complaint about a false report?

Exactly! Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because a person doesn't know that OC is legal is no excuse for calling 911 about a person carrying a gun in a non-threatening manner. Also, train 911 operators to query the caller further regarding the behavior of the "man with a gun."

I would also advise those wanting to OC to first introduce themselves to the chief LEO and let him/her know that you'll be exercising your constitutional right. You may need to provide some information from the DA's office so that all the Law and Order crowd are on the same page. Where I live in northwest Louisiana, the local LEOs know the names of all those who practice OC on a regular basis and they know that they are not a threat (except where lawsuits are concerned for unlawful arrest or detention.)

[doubletap1]

Exactly! Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because a person doesn't know that OC is legal is no excuse for calling 911 about a person carrying a gun in a non-threatening manner. Also, train 911 operators to query the caller further regarding the behavior of the "man with a gun."

Do you really think that's reasonable? Do you think Mary Sue SoccerMom is cabable of making that distinction? And what happens if they get it wrong? I hope the cops keep doing what they've been doing and error on the side of caution by doing their jobs and checking the guy out.

I would also advise those wanting to OC to first introduce themselves to the chief LEO and let him/her know that you'll be exercising your constitutional right. You may need to provide some information from the DA's office so that all the Law and Order crowd are on the same page. Where I live in northwest Louisiana, the local LEOs know the names of all those who practice OC on a regular basis and they know that they are not a threat (except where lawsuits are concerned for unlawful arrest or detention.)

:upeyes:

......or maybe instead of creating all this paperwork and headaches for everyone involved, you could just carry concealed and avoid the whole problem. Wouldn't that make more sense?

[mitchshrader]

open carry makes more sense than Concealed Carry. Both have their virtues, and both help make me safer. I'm for open carry to make the visible point, and CCW to keep 'em guessing.

Guns in citizens hands makes tyrants very nervous, and criminals of other sorts equally nervous, for exactly the same reasons.

When people tell lies that civil individuals shouldn't be armed, they have announced their criminal agenda for all to see.

Tyranny under color of law, or theft by force of arms, it's the SAME DAMN CRIMINAL MINDSET.

when the good guys do bad things they become bad guys.

[TylerDurden]

Wait, wait, wait... doubletap1 doesn't like open carry?! When did this happen?

[doubletap1]

Wait, wait, wait... doubletap1 doesn't like open carry?! When did this happen?


Back off, b****. I'll scratch your freakin' eyes out.

[TylerDurden]

Back off, b****. I'll scratch your freakin' eyes out.

:rofl:

[boyscout399]

Do you really think that's reasonable? Do you think Mary Sue SoccerMom is cabable of making that distinction? And what happens if they get it wrong? I hope the cops keep doing what they've been doing and error on the side of caution by doing their jobs and checking the guy out.



:upeyes:

......or maybe instead of creating all this paperwork and headaches for everyone involved, you could just carry concealed and avoid the whole problem. Wouldn't that make more sense?

I don't expect Mary Sue SoccerMom to know the laws and if she calls man with a gun, that's okay by me. However, the police that respond SHOULD know the laws and learn to assess the situation before they harrass, arrest, and cuff a law abiding citizen.

As far as open carry goes, I do it because my CCW permit is still pending and my state only allows for OC until I get my permit. Should I not be allowed to protect myself until my permit clears? I think not. That's not how the law was written. I have the right to OC until I get that permit, and the police should be aware of those laws, find out my intentions, and then let me on my way.

[RussP]

...or maybe instead of creating all this paperwork and headaches for everyone involved, you could just carry concealed and avoid the whole problem. Wouldn't that make more sense?No.....

[doubletap1]

No.....

That's it? :dunno: