Would you show ID to LEO if asked while OC'ing? [Archive]

Resqu2

06-20-2008, 20:38

This question is directed to the OC group ONLY, it kinda goes along with some other topics being covered here in CI.

Say your OC'ing and for whatever reason you are stopped by LEO and ID was asked for, would you show it or refuse?

On some OC forums that I keep up with, some members are completely against cooperating with LEO for any reason if stopped, most carry recorders just in case of an encounter.

As for myself, if they are responding to a "man with a gun" call then I would have no problem with showing my DL and CCW permit and that should allow them to clear the call and go on to more important things.

My reaction may be different if I just happen to pass a cop in a store and he stopped me and started making a big deal over me OC'ing. In that case I "may" refuse to cooperate. I'm not sure though, the situation would have to happen before I know for sure how I would handle it.

PLEASE, if your against open carry then this question is NOT for you so please don't respond to this thread, I'm looking for opinions or actual LEO encounters due to OC.

****************************************************************************
This post is down in the thread, but some don't read far before posting, so I am adding it to Resqu2's OP. Please heed...Lighten up folks.

If you think someone drew a line in the sand and you need to protect your side of the line, your imagination is really running wild.

If you want to promote "US & THEM", go somewhere else.

If you want to post constructive advice or personal experiences, please do.

Remember, laws vary from state to state. What applies here in Virginia may not apply where you live.

If you can't accept that in spite of your high regard for your personal good looks, how you dress and your personal hygiene, that you may look suspicious to someone else, then get over it. You just might look like the domestic abuser who just beat his kids. Yeh, stuff happens.

If you are law enforcement, give advice on what trips your switch. And, yes, if we all concealed, your life would be easier. Some can't or choose not to - like me - when and where appropriate. Don't slam people just because they publicly show their inexperience in their posts.

This forum is for exchanging information, ideas and advice. It is not a testosterone flaunting stage. We know every single one here has big brass ones. Don't let their clanging together as you strut drown out any good material you're posting.

:impatient:

Max Peck

06-20-2008, 20:43

Most certainly would show them my identification, I have nothing to hide and am doing nothing wrong so why make trouble? It's not a matter of rights, its a matter of practicality....

brandonb123

06-20-2008, 20:48

Identification if asked to provide it and CCW if asked to present it, nothing less nothing more, keep my mouth shut and keep myself from incriminating my way to a jail cell.

Solid

06-20-2008, 20:49

I would ask why first.

-Is there a problem?
-Am I under arest?
-Am I free to go?

I wouldn't see a problem giving ID, but I would want to know what for.

txinvestigator

06-20-2008, 21:24

?

On some OC forums that I keep up with, some members are completely against cooperating with LEO for any reason if stopped, most carry recorders just in case of an encounter.

.

Actually most of those Internet big mouths don't carry recorders and either would cooperate or act so badly that they find themselves thrown in jail. They wish they were so cool. :upeyes:

You had better know your states laws regarding Identifying yourself to a Peace Officer if you plan to refuse to ID.

commander

06-20-2008, 21:25

:popcorn:

SCC

06-20-2008, 21:39

( oc )i had a lady at a speedway gas st. ask if it was real g19 i told her it would be no good if it was not the real thing and went on my way :whistling:

coloradokevin

06-20-2008, 21:40

Actually most of those Internet big mouths don't carry recorders and either would cooperate or act so badly that they find themselves thrown in jail. They wish they were so cool. :upeyes:

You had better know your states laws regarding Identifying yourself to a Peace Officer if you plan to refuse to ID.

Yep.

If I'm asking for a person's ID while I'm working, I have some legal reason to be asking for it... even if that person isn't quite sure of why I am (perhaps they fit the description of a crime in progress?). If the party refuses to identify themselves, we will very likely have more issues to deal with.

shotgunred

06-20-2008, 21:50

i love the way cops threaten like that.:upeyes::rofl:

i would show id. i believe we should all have a national id that proved who we are and that we are legal USA residents.
when i get pulled over i always tell the cop my ID and CPP is in the front right pocket and i am carrying a pistol right behind them. i don't want shot by a nervous cop.

tjbert47

06-20-2008, 21:58

In TN to carry a gun concealed or open you must have a permit issued by the state. If asked you must produce said permit.

Dean

06-20-2008, 22:02

I doubt there's any public place in America where a citizen carrying a weapon openly has the right to refuse an officer's request for identification.
No place I can think of.

LittleRedToyota

06-20-2008, 22:06

I doubt there's any public place in America where a citizen carrying a weapon openly has the right to refuse an officer's request for identification.
No place I can think of.

PA...at least outside of philly.

we do not have a stop-and-ID statute. and the state supreme court has ruled that OCing is not, in and of itself, RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) of a crime since you do not need an LTCF (license to carry firearms...what PA calls our carry permits) to OC (at least outside of philly). therefore, there is no requirement to provide ID just because you are OCing (at least outside of philly).

for more, see any of the relatively recent threads on the "dickson city incident" in which rich banks was arrested...and then "unarrested"...for doing exactly that. his lawsuit is now pending.

Prometheus77

06-20-2008, 22:11

Required by law here in Indiana if you are a carrying a handgun (open or concealed).

If I was in a state that didn't require it, then no I would not.

This reminds me of the "Where are you coming from? where are you going? what are you doing here?" bullcrap.

If I'm not required by law to disclose XYZ information or produce XYZ documentation don't expect and don't get pissed when I politely say no. If I am required by law, then I will. I also know ahead of time what is and is not required so I don't play the "do I have to?" game.

My issues with a LEO asking for ID (or whatever) while OC'ing is many. For starters, it's against the law for a LEO to stop a driver whose done nothing wrong and demand their ID, so why hassle someone OC'ing?

certifiedfunds

06-20-2008, 22:26

Habu

06-20-2008, 22:54

Would be much more expedient if they would go ahead and implant RFID microchips in everyone. Would be much less hassle if the LEO could just pass a wand reader in an OCers general vacinity.

Afterall, what's the difference if you can't decline to present "papers" upon demand in absence of illegal activity?:whistling:

You're out of your mind........I see your point, but c'mon......

Yeah, I show cops my ID/Permit when they ask for it. Compliance with Law Enforcement is usually a good idea.

novaDAK

06-20-2008, 23:33

EDIT: never mind. I will just say that it is not required in VA to ID yourself when not driving (since walking or carrying openly doesn't require a license...yet ;) )

I'd go on a case by case basis, depending on the attitude and actions of the LEO. I'm a college student and do not really want to be put in jail even if I am in the right. But at the same time I don't want any of my constitutionally protected rights violated. The 2nd and 4th come to mind...

C4talyst

06-20-2008, 23:35

I OC and CCW. Yes, I would show my ID because I'm a cooperative person. However, if the officer is ignorant of the law or not a cooperative person, I can reciprocate.

certifiedfunds

06-20-2008, 23:50

You're out of your mind........I see your point, but c'mon......

Yeah, I show cops my ID/Permit when they ask for it. Compliance with Law Enforcement is usually a good idea.

I'm being absurd to make a point.

If you must show identification when not acting outside of the law, what is the difference?

Honestly, I would likely show my ID if asked while being treated with courtesy.

Bozz

06-20-2008, 23:59

For full disclosure, I do NOT open carry -- it isn't legal in my state (FL) and I don't see how it is beneficial to open yourself up to such scrutiny.

However, I am a logical, and rational person with LOTS of family in Law Enforcement.

I don't see why you wouldn't cooperate by showing ID if asked by a LEO. IF he started to harass you and your well within the law... then its time to be quiet and ask if your under arrest, free to go, or if you should be getting your attorney on the phone.

Just my humble opinion... I see no benefit in snubbing my nose at LE unless they give me good reason. I'm a law-abiding citizen and expect to be treated like one.. however, I respectfully believe it is their job to be aware of whats going on, who is armed, etc.

Bozz

mschu

06-21-2008, 00:15

In some jurisdictions if you do not provide an ID that constitutes reasonable cause. You could be detained and/or arrested pending positive identification via finger prints.
(by the way it can take several hours, sometimes 12-15 to verify fingerprints.)

During all this time you could be left sitting in a holding cell at the local jail with all the drunks.

Refuse your ID at your own risk....

svilla

06-21-2008, 01:48

I don't see why you wouldn't cooperate by showing ID if asked by a LEO. IF he started to harass you and your well within the law... then its time to be quiet and ask if your under arrest, free to go, or if you should be getting your attorney on the phone.

Just my humble opinion... I see no benefit in snubbing my nose at LE unless they give me good reason. I'm a law-abiding citizen and expect to be treated like one.. however, I respectfully believe it is their job to be aware of whats going on, who is armed, etc.

Well said, I agree.

Habu

06-21-2008, 03:31

Indeed.

Good grief, it's not a violation of your Constitutional rights for a LEO to ask for your ID/Permit.

"Hey, lemme see your ID, and your carry permit." Here ya go officer." ......................"Okay, you're good to go." "Thanks Officer."

Big frikkin' deal. I suppose I might ask "what's the trouble" or something........but..........

Oh yeah, I don't open carry. So if an officer does want to ID me, I know he's not buggin' me about my gun.......something else is going on around me.

I'll never understand the whole "open carry" thing, at least in an urban environment.

I stand next to cops (armed of course) all the time. They're not bugging me about my weapon, because they don't see it. It's not something they need to waste their time worrying about.

Anti-OC rant over, I suppose.............:wavey:

Oldskoolfan

06-21-2008, 03:36

I wonder what the founding fathers would have thought of the police demanding papers from the citizens? Any ideas?

PAGunner

06-21-2008, 03:47

I wonder what the founding fathers would have thought of the police demanding papers from the citizens? Any ideas?

I think we know the answer to that. They would probably think of some crappy B movie about the soviet union where a KGB agent asks a random person for, "your papers" (with heavy russian accent).

coloradokevin

06-21-2008, 04:18

i love the way cops threaten like that.:upeyes::rofl:

Where was a "threat" made by anyone, LEO or otherwise, in this thread?

deadday

06-21-2008, 04:40

No, I'd show him the Constitution, tell him to quit violating my rights, and then make sure he doesn't follow my wife for 7 miles across 2 jurisdictions..Oh...and I'd ask him if he had to turn in his brain when he was issued his jackboots..:whistling:

drew

TheeBadOne

06-21-2008, 04:59

http://www.taser.org/images/thighholster-medium.jpg

Resqu2

06-21-2008, 06:10

Yep.

If I'm asking for a person's ID while I'm working, I have some legal reason to be asking for it... even if that person isn't quite sure of why I am (perhaps they fit the description of a crime in progress?). If the party refuses to identify themselves, we will very likely have more issues to deal with.

Kevin,
You said that if you were asking for ID then you had a legal reason to be asking, if OC was legal (I don't know Colorado law) then question #1 would you consider just seeing someone with a holstered gun a legal reason to ask for ID and question #2 would you have a legal reason to ask for ID if you were dispatched to a "man with a gun" call.

In VA we are not required to show papers unless we are driving a vehicle. If we are CCW'ing then the rules change but for OC we can walk all over VA and are not required to have any kind of ID on us.

Resqu2

06-21-2008, 06:16

I doubt there's any public place in America where a citizen carrying a weapon openly has the right to refuse an officer's request for identification.
No place I can think of.

No law in VA, now if your in a car it's a different story but if your out walking then no one can tell you that you have to take ID with you just because you have a gun on you.

slewfoot

06-21-2008, 06:28

Although I am not legally required to show ID while OCing in my state, I do not have a problem with presenting my identification when asked.

Hopefully, if it should ever occur, both of us treat each other with respect and courtesy.

Aran

06-21-2008, 06:46

No, and I wouldn't have last time either, but I was in cuffs and he fished my wallet out of my pocket while frisking me.

Bill Lumberg

06-21-2008, 07:06

You have to ask yourself "self, am I an idiot?". If the answer is yes, then no, don't show ID. Free clue for the commandos living in grandmas basement- in most cases, you have no choice in the matter. It's called Hiibel.

This question is directed to the OC group ONLY, it kinda goes along with some other topics being covered here in CI.

Say your OC'ing and for whatever reason you are stopped by LEO and ID was asked for, would you show it or refuse?

.

garebel

06-21-2008, 07:17

Well said, I agree.

I agree as well.

garebel

06-21-2008, 07:19

Dukeboy01

06-21-2008, 09:35

Sorry for beating your dead horse, I haven't been around GT as long as you have and I haven't seen this question asked here before. :wavey:

No problem. It's just that I am guessing that this thread has already gone the way these threads always do. I have not read any of the responses past your response to me last night, so I'll post this and then go see if I am right.

1. Some innocent person (in this case, you) asks a reasonable question that either suggests:
A.) OC is probably not a good idea in most environments when CC is available as an alternative
or
B.) When choosing to OC, it is reasonable to respond to basic inquiries from law enforcement when they inevitably have to respond to some hysterical citizen's call of a man with a gun.

2. The first couple of responses to the OP state something along the lines of "I respect law enforcement and as long as they are polite with me, I will be cooperative with them. I can't imagine why you wouldn't present id."

3. Another couple of posts will come along, stating something along the lines of "I would just CC and then the cops don't have to worry about it. In my state if you have a CC permit, you have to show it when asked."

4. Suddenly the tinfoil hat brigade arrives. "ONLY A SHEEPLE WOULD COOPERATE WITH A JBT ASKING FOR IDENTIFICATION TO EXCERCISE ONE OF OUR CONSTIPATIONAL RIGHTS! WHERE ARE WE, RUSSIA?! OC IS LEGAL IN MY STATE AND I'M GOTDANG DETERMINED TO EDUMACATE EVERY ONE OF YOU ON THAT FACT! I HAVE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT AND NO PIG IS GOING TO MAKE ME INCRIMINATE MYSELF ASKING ME WHY I'M EXCERCISING MY 2A RIGHTS GUARANDANGTEED BY TOMMY JEFFERSON HISSELF!! I'D LIKE TO SEE SOME JBT TRY THAT CRAP WITH ME! I GOT A TAPE RECORDER AND A LAWYER ON SPEED DIAL AND THAT DONUT EATING FACIST BETTER THINK TWICE BEFORE HE ASKS ME ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY I'M WEARING AN EXPOSED .44 MAGNUM TO THE CHURCH PICNIC! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOES ON AT MY CRAZY-@$$ CHURCH!! BESIDES, I HAPPEN TO KNOW THAT IF HE'S NOT WEARING HIS HAT THAT HE LOSES ALL OF HIS AUTHORITY ANYWAY. OH, AND IF HE ATTEMPTS TO DISARM ME, IT'S ON, CUZ! REMEMBER KATRINA!!"
By the way, you get double points if The Federalist Papers are mentioned.

5. The cops will come along (I'm one, BTW) and either:
A.) Insist that we are not going to take your guns.
B.) Point out legal authority that allows us to ask simple questions and/ or perform certain actions (Terry vs. OH, etc.)
C.) Give examples of why it is always best to cooperate with us and negative consequences if you don't.
or
D.) Screw with the tinfoil hat brigade.

6. The tinfoil hat brigade will respond to the cops with taunts, insults, and passages from The Federalist Papers, Poor Richard's Almanac, and Ron Paul campaign literature. The cops will quit trying to educate the tinfoil hat brigade and begin to bait them in earnest. Innocent people will post "Why can't we all just get along?"

7. The thread will be locked.

JJ.45

06-21-2008, 09:50

Free clue for the commandos living in grandmas basement

LMAO!

Truckee

06-21-2008, 10:11

No law in VA, now if your in a car it's a different story but if your out walking then no one can tell you that you have to take ID with you just because you have a gun on you.

Resqu2 and novaDAK,
Both of you are correct. There is no Code of VA. legislating presentation of ID "just because you have a visible handgun on you." There are, however, Common Law principles that allow LE to detain you for failure to present ID upon request.

Failure to identify yourself to LE can lead you toward lawful detention. LE can detain you until your identification is verified. The officer will have to articulate that you are somehow connected to a police action, but that isn't too difficult to do.

If an officer walks up and asks for your ID because he/she simply feels like it... if both you and the LEO agree that's "why" you were being ID'ed, a judge would likely see your detention as unlawful.

If the officer is responding to a robbery complaint, this constitutes an investigation. The caucasion suspect wears a blue shirt; you're wearing a blue shirt. Your ID can be requested and failure to present it can be at your own risk.

Bill Lumberg is correct. Fail to identify at your own peril.

Resqu2

06-21-2008, 11:41

Resqu2 and novaDAK,
Both of you are correct. There is no Code of VA. legislating presentation of ID "just because you have a visible handgun on you." There are, however, Common Law principles that allow LE to detain you for failure to present ID upon request.

Failure to identify yourself to LE can lead you toward lawful detention. LE can detain you until your identification is verified. The officer will have to articulate that you are somehow connected to a police action, but that isn't too difficult to do.

If an officer walks up and asks for your ID because he/she simply feels like it... if both you and the LEO agree that's "why" you were being ID'ed, a judge would likely see your detention as unlawful.

If the officer is responding to a robbery complaint, this constitutes an investigation. The caucasion suspect wears a blue shirt; you're wearing a blue shirt. Your ID can be requested and failure to present it can be at your own risk.

Bill Lumberg is correct. Fail to identify at your own peril.

I agree totally with what you said, I started this thread just to see what others opinions would be. I would provide ID without a fuss as I have nothing to hide but I would rethink my position if the cop was making a big deal out of OC, especially when you have to OC to comply with our crazy laws here in VA. I would still show ID but that would be all, I would not argue with a cop, it would be 1) am I under arrest? 2) am I free to go?

Resqu2

06-21-2008, 11:52

You have to ask yourself "self, am I an idiot?". If the answer is yes, then no, don't show ID. Free clue for the commandos living in grandmas basement- in most cases, you have no choice in the matter. It's called Hiibel.

Hiibel is a different subject, the guy was being questioned about an assault case where a crime had been committed, my question only deals with legal OC where no crime has been committed.

BTW, I have no issue with showing ID if asked. Say a cop comes up and said that they were there on a 911 call and just wanted to check things out and clear the call, I have no problem with that. Now if a cop just stopped me and has a major problem with OC in general and comes across as some has done in other threads then I may have a different reaction, I don't know??

Blitzer

06-21-2008, 12:10

An attitude can make all the difference in the world, why not comply and keep things relaxed?

:dunno:

CaspianHG

06-21-2008, 12:16

"i'll be more than happy to give you my id, but may i ask what for?"

hikerpaddler

06-21-2008, 13:03

coloradokevin

06-21-2008, 13:22

That's just it- you don't know whether you're being stopped under Terry (in which case Hiibel is Not a different subject) or not. You don't get to choose whether to identify yourself in most situations. Whether you've committed a crime or not does not determine whether you're suspected of criminal activity. While the officer is conducting a limited investigation to determine whether criminal activity was or was about to be committed, Hiibel applies, even if the limited investigation (Terry stop) determines that nothing wrong happened. By which time you've shown your id as requested, or you've refused to identify yourself completely. Ask Hiibel how that worked out.

Exactly. A person may not think that they are suspected of a crime (perhaps it is a case of mistaken identification, and an ID would clear it up?), but they had better provide ID if they are contacted as a party matching the description from a crime. Otherwise they will be detained until their identity is discovered, and will likely be charged with "Interference" or some other similar offense for hindering the investigation by refusing to identify themselves when lawfully requested to do so.

The Open Carry contact question is too broad to answer in a black and white, yes or no, manner. There could be reasons that I would contact someone who is Open Carrying, depending on the manner of their carry (Are they walking down the street with the gun in their hand? Did they just leave a bar with the gun? Have they been reported as being involved in some other criminal activity? Did I observe some criminal activity? Are they openly consuming alcohol? Are they in the ghetto flying gang colors?).

But, no, I wouldn't feel the need to contact someone who was walking down the street just wearing a gun... But, if I did contact said person for whatever reason (as I mentioned earlier), then I already know that I have an articulable reason for the stop (even if they haven't figured out what that reason is). As such, the party stopped will find themselves in a bigger mess if they refuse to ID themselves.

There is also a difference between a detention and a consensual contact. I might be inclined to just stop and talk casually to a person, in which case I wouldn't be requesting an ID. But, again, if I did stop and ask for an ID, it means I already have a reason that I am doing so!

4. Suddenly the tinfoil hat brigade arrives. "ONLY A SHEEPLE WOULD COOPERATE WITH A JBT ASKING FOR IDENTIFICATION TO EXCERCISE ONE OF OUR CONSTIPATIONAL RIGHTS! WHERE ARE WE, RUSSIA?! OC IS LEGAL IN MY STATE AND I'M GOTDANG DETERMINED TO EDUMACATE EVERY ONE OF YOU ON THAT FACT! I HAVE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT AND NO PIG IS GOING TO MAKE ME INCRIMINATE MYSELF ASKING ME WHY I'M EXCERCISING MY 2A RIGHTS GUARANDANGTEED BY TOMMY JEFFERSON HISSELF!! I'D LIKE TO SEE SOME JBT TRY THAT CRAP WITH ME! I GOT A TAPE RECORDER AND A LAWYER ON SPEED DIAL AND THAT DONUT EATING FACIST BETTER THINK TWICE BEFORE HE ASKS ME ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY I'M WEARING AN EXPOSED .44 MAGNUM TO THE CHURCH PICNIC! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOES ON AT MY CRAZY-@$$ CHURCH!! BESIDES, I HAPPEN TO KNOW THAT IF HE'S NOT WEARING HIS HAT THAT HE LOSES ALL OF HIS AUTHORITY ANYWAY. OH, AND IF HE ATTEMPTS TO DISARM ME, IT'S ON, CUZ! REMEMBER KATRINA!!"
By the way, you get double points if The Federalist Papers are mentioned.

6. The tinfoil hat brigade will respond to the cops with taunts, insults, and passages from The Federalist Papers, Poor Richard's Almanac, and Ron Paul campaign literature. The cops will quit trying to educate the tinfoil hat brigade and begin to bait them in earnest. Innocent people will post "Why can't we all just get along?"

7. The thread will be locked.

Now that's just funny!!!

I wouldn't knock the tinfoil though... It's the only effective way to keep the aliens from coming in through your lights, electrical sockets, or windows... Plus, when you make a hat out of it, well, it keep the aliens from reading your thoughts.

Hmmm... From the deep seated cynicism I felt from your post, I'm guessing that "crazy" comes in the same 31 flavors that I deal with at work in my part of the country!!! :)

Prometheus77

06-21-2008, 14:02

Resqu2 and novaDAK,
Both of you are correct. There is no Code of VA. legislating presentation of ID "just because you have a visible handgun on you." There are, however, Common Law principles that allow LE to detain you for failure to present ID upon request.

Failure to identify yourself to LE can lead you toward lawful detention. LE can detain you until your identification is verified. The officer will have to articulate that you are somehow connected to a police action, but that isn't too difficult to do.

If an officer walks up and asks for your ID because he/she simply feels like it... if both you and the LEO agree that's "why" you were being ID'ed, a judge would likely see your detention as unlawful.
Bill Lumberg is correct. Fail to identify at your own peril.

Two big differences here ID vs Identify.

States and laws will vary, but in most states you do NOT have to produce ID unless you are doing something that is specifically required under the law (operating a motor vehicle, for example).

Most States require you to IDENTIFY yourself to law enforcement upon reasonable request. Not to present any ID, but to verbally give Name, Address and DOB (social not required usually). Most courts will find that an officer can reasonably request you to identify yourself when open carrying at an officers discretion. In the case of VA and PA (New Hampshire and Vermont and others) whether you choose to show ID or verbally identify yourself, either is sufficient under the law.

This thread has deteriorated into the usual crap where people have NO RESPECT FOR WORDS OR MEANINGS when they espousing to speak on legal matters. It's like buy and bye... sound the same but totally different meanings.

One of the biggest reasons for keeping police "in check" is to remind them they aren't God and to keep them grounded.

Rights are useless if you cannot exercise them or get treated like a criminal even when you are fully within your Rights and the law.

PAGunner

06-21-2008, 14:09

One of the biggest reasons for keeping police "in check" is to remind them they aren't God and to keep them grounded.

Rights are useless if you cannot exercise them or get treated like a criminal even when you are fully within your Rights and the law.

+1, well put.

SouthernBoyVA

06-21-2008, 14:14

LoadToadBoss

06-21-2008, 14:14

When I was in the USAF, I was always having to show some form of ID just about every where I went--including the BX/PX; so, being asked to provide my ID to an LEO is in line with the body of my experiences. That said, now that I've been a sillivilian for 10 years, I would ask, "do you suspect that I have committed a crime?" If not, then "am I free to go or am I under investigative detention?" Depending on the answer I get, I would probably ask to speak with my attorney before answering any more questions. Plus, I would say "sir/ma'am" alot in an effort to be as polite and non-confrontational as possible.

SouthernBoyVA

06-21-2008, 14:16

I doubt there's any public place in America where a citizen carrying a weapon openly has the right to refuse an officer's request for identification.
No place I can think of.
Virginia. We still believe in civil rights here. We do not have to carry an ID unless we are using the public highways or CC'ing. OC is a different matter and no ID is needed, required, or expected.

solomansousana

06-21-2008, 14:30

Sure, simply show your ID as asked, then if they go any further, ask them what the problem is. If thing's start to go to crap from their, ask for your lawyer, then file with the departments Internal Affairs office. No officer wants a complaint from IAB in his jacket, whether it's founded or unfounded.

Truckee

06-21-2008, 14:33

Two big differences here ID vs Identify.

States and laws will vary, but in most states you do NOT have to produce ID unless you are doing something that is specifically required under the law (operating a motor vehicle, for example).

Most States require you to IDENTIFY yourself to law enforcement upon reasonable request. Not to present any ID, but to verbally give Name, Address and DOB (social not required usually). Most courts will find that an officer can reasonably request you to identify yourself when open carrying at an officers discretion. In the case of VA and PA (New Hampshire and Vermont and others) whether you choose to show ID or verbally identify yourself, either is sufficient under the law.

This thread has deteriorated into the usual crap where people have NO RESPECT FOR WORDS OR MEANINGS when they espousing to speak on legal matters. It's like buy and bye... sound the same but totally different meanings.

One of the biggest reasons for keeping police "in check" is to remind them they aren't God and to keep them grounded.

Rights are useless if you cannot exercise them or get treated like a criminal even when you are fully within your Rights and the law.

I am aware of the legal wranglings of 'words.' I just didn't feel it necessary to go into a long post.

Sorry if my typing and choice of words failed to suit anyone. Not my intention.

SouthernBoyVA

06-21-2008, 14:45

Lot's of stuff being thrown around, some good advice, some not so good. I'll reserve my opinions, thank you. Suffice it to say that I support the good LEO's and have nothing but bile in my gut for the ones with an attitude and agenda (can we say Katrina as one poster was kind to remind).

Supporting the police does not mean submitting to their whim, nor does it mean giving up your rights. Remember, we own the government and its agencies.. not the other way around.

Whether or not you chose to present an ID if requested is and should be your decision. For myself, I suspect it would largely depend upon the circumstances at hand. But remember this. You DO NOT have to talk to a police officer. That means answer questions, explain something, or even say, "good day". You have the right to keep your mouth shut.. the entire time. Once again, that is your decision to take, not the officer's.

Here is a very interesting link about this very topic.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=885751

Once more, I wish to reiterate that whether or not you chose to show an ID is your decision to take. I would suggest weighing the circumstances and acting accordingly as you see fit.

shotgunred

06-21-2008, 15:33

Why not just identify yourself? It may be your legal right to refuse. But if the cop gets a wild hair up his but he can find a reason to arrest you. You may and probably will be let go with no charges later. But not before they have taken your picture, fingerprinted you and put your DNA in the national data base. You can’t just get yourself out of that. Now for the rest of your life that information will be available to anyone who has access to that database.
I for one don’t want myself there and will take some effort to avoid being put in it in the first place.

Dean

06-21-2008, 15:34

doubletap1

06-21-2008, 15:59

4. Suddenly the tinfoil hat brigade arrives. "ONLY A SHEEPLE WOULD COOPERATE WITH A JBT ASKING FOR IDENTIFICATION TO EXCERCISE ONE OF OUR CONSTIPATIONAL RIGHTS! WHERE ARE WE, RUSSIA?! OC IS LEGAL IN MY STATE AND I'M GOTDANG DETERMINED TO EDUMACATE EVERY ONE OF YOU ON THAT FACT! I HAVE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT AND NO PIG IS GOING TO MAKE ME INCRIMINATE MYSELF ASKING ME WHY I'M EXCERCISING MY 2A RIGHTS GUARANDANGTEED BY TOMMY JEFFERSON HISSELF!! I'D LIKE TO SEE SOME JBT TRY THAT CRAP WITH ME! I GOT A TAPE RECORDER AND A LAWYER ON SPEED DIAL AND THAT DONUT EATING FACIST BETTER THINK TWICE BEFORE HE ASKS ME ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHY I'M WEARING AN EXPOSED .44 MAGNUM TO THE CHURCH PICNIC! YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOES ON AT MY CRAZY-@$$ CHURCH!! BESIDES, I HAPPEN TO KNOW THAT IF HE'S NOT WEARING HIS HAT THAT HE LOSES ALL OF HIS AUTHORITY ANYWAY. OH, AND IF HE ATTEMPTS TO DISARM ME, IT'S ON, CUZ! REMEMBER KATRINA!!"
By the way, you get double points if The Federalist Papers are mentioned.

:rofl::animlol::rofl::animlol:

jsc4324

06-21-2008, 16:15

I'll throw in another LEO point of view. By the way, I find this interesting. As a LEO I have the ability to stop and detain an individual who appears suspicious in order for he/she to either confirm or dispel the suspicious activity. Each LEO may have their own terms of suspiciousness. For those that I have made contact with regarding a firearm, most were cooperative. I will usually simply run a check to again confirm there person is who he/she claims to be. Once done, the subject is usually on his/her way with a "have a nice day", or even some conversation into firearms and so forth. However when a person is asked to simply identify themselves and they become argumentative and so forth, it makes things far more complicated. I personally don't mind the individual to ask why they are being stopped/detained, etc... In my opinion, if I am detaining you, then I should and usually will provide you with a reason you are being stopped depending on the circumstances. I understand some feel that this is their right to not speak with LEO at all and further understand that their are LEO out there with an attitude 100% of the time, hell I work with a few like that. If you decide that you believe you are in the right and don't have to ID yourself and start to walk away, I will bet you money that you will now be detained and probably find yourself in a pair of bracelets until the situation is figured out. Just remember you may know that you are a stand up citizen legally carrying a firearm. The LEO that is making contact with you, may or may not have been called for a gun call, and does not know you, and attempting to protect those in need. If you feel that you have had your rights violated then I strongly suggest that rather then argue on the side of the road, make a formal complaint to the PD / mayor, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI

This is an interesting link that occurred. Now I have my opinion on this and it may be different then yours. However a simple ID and the individual would have been on his way within 2 minutes. The subject in the blue and red stripped shirt is a whole different story.....

SouthernBoyVA

06-21-2008, 16:16

You DO NOT have to talk to a police officer. That means answer questions, explain something, or even say, "good day". You have the right to keep your mouth shut.. the entire time. Once again, that is your decision to take, not the officer's.

Anybody recommend that response to police questioning in a firearm related investigation? That's a terrible idea. Even on a traffic stop, that's gonna cause serious problems.
What I'd do is present my credentials, give my name and address, and state briefly what happened. Then if you're a suspect (or post shooting), ask to call your attorney. Friends, if you just shot a man in the chest and he's laying there dying you're gonna have to tell the cops something.

Same on a traffic stop. "Why were you exceeding the speed limit, Sir?"
Silence. Driver stares straight ahead, says nothing.
The officer will read that as hostility, and hatred and contempt for law enforcement.
That's not gonna go too well for your driving record, is it?

I know what you're saying sir and I have heard both sides from attorneys (not ones I have hired). Whether or not you or anyone else likes it, that is the way it is according to one attorney and a long time police officer backed him up on it. The other attorney offered a slightly different take that went more along the lines of what you have suggested.

My take is this. It would depend upon the instant situation. Most likely I would be inclined to offer limited information in a guarded manner but you know what? I have never shot anyone in a self defense situation so I honestly cannot say what I would do. Playing armchair guessing games is what most of us are really doing anyway because I would imagine most have not been in any sort of similar situation. We may just crap our pants and spill our guts at any and all who are willing to listen because people do want to talk about an extreme experience. My post was made from what I have learned from a few attorneys.. not from any of my own experiences.

As I said, I believe I would be more inclined to offer some limited information and then hold my tongue until I was able to consult a lawyer. That's what I think I would do. What I would actually do.. frankly I haven't a clue.

As an afterthought, I would like to add something about my experiences with Virginia police; which have been rather limited, thank you. Only once have I ever had a negative encounter with a Virginia police officer (Arlington County). He was a motor cop and it turned into quite a verbal altercation. I won and he didn't like it one bit. Every other Virginia LEO with whom I have had an encounter has been professional and a credit to their department.

Coldcases

06-21-2008, 17:06

DKSuddeth

06-21-2008, 17:27

Where was a "threat" made by anyone, LEO or otherwise, in this thread?

I think it was this, your statement, If the party refuses to identify themselves, we will very likely have more issues to deal with.

and you know what? if you ask and I decline, with NO actual law being broken, what are the 'issues' you plan on serving up?

DKSuddeth

06-21-2008, 17:29

cowboywannabe

06-21-2008, 19:01

there is an old saying "you might beat the wrap, but you wont beat the ride".....

dummy up if you want to, but dont start whining in the back of the cruiser.....

you will have no idea why the cop is asking for your I.D., there may have been a man with a gun call where the caller soccer mom or granny says "he was acting suspicious like he was going to rob somebody"

if approached and asked for i.d. and you say nothing or do nothing you will be detained until the officer knows youre not the one they were looking for OR that you are the one they were looking for but you were doing nothing wrong.....

it takes so little effort from each side to resolve the whole issue, its ashame folks just cant see that...

Habu

06-21-2008, 19:14

RussP

06-21-2008, 19:40

Lighten up folks.

If you think someone drew a line in the sand and you need to protect your side of the line, your imagination is really running wild.

If you want to promote "US & THEM", go somewhere else.

If you want to post constructive advice or personal experiences, please do.

Remember, laws vary from state to state. What applies here in Virginia may not apply where you live.

If you can't accept that in spite of your high regard for your personal good looks, how you dress and your personal hygiene, that you may look suspicious to someone else, then get over it. You just might look like the domestic abuser who just beat his kids. Yeh, stuff happens.

If you are law enforcement, give advice on what trips your switch. And, yes, if we all concealed, your life would be easier. Some can't or choose not to - like me - when and where appropriate. Don't slam people just because they publicly show their inexperience in their posts.

This forum is for exchanging information, ideas and advice. It is not a testosterone flaunting stage. We know every single one here has big brass ones. Don't let their clanging together as you strut drown out any good material you're posting.

:impatient:

witheringfire

06-21-2008, 19:59

A better question is why wouldn't you want to aid an LEO in the performance of his or her job? There are only two reasons that spring to mind:

- you hate LE because of your own issues with authority, and just want to be an a**hat.
or...
- you are nervous because you may have some other issues he is going to find out about.

If you get an attitude and refuse to be cooperative, that is exactly what he/she is going to think - and justifiably so. No one is saying you have to start answering excessive questions/be interrogated/etc.

Asking for ID is nothing more than a standard procedure. The Officer needs to verify that you are in fact who you say you are, that you are legitimately carrying, and not prohibited from being in possesion of weapons; hence the need to see some form of legal ID. Simple. A quick check and you are done. And guess what, he'll actually be happy to know you are one of the good guys. he might not even be aware of all open carry laws. If he has a polite and respectful encounter with you, it will only be a plus with regard to promoting open carry with LE.

No one is about to repel out of the invisible black helicopters, put a bag over your head, and carry you off to some underground facility never to be heard from again.

DocwithGlock

06-21-2008, 20:12

The Officer needs to verify that you are in fact who you say you are, that you are legitimately carrying, and not prohibited from being in possesion of weapons; hence the need to see some form of legal ID.

You are assuming people are guilty and must prove their innocence. What law requires you to say or do anything?

Personally I would ask why I am being stopped and if the reason is I was exercising my rights and not breaking any laws, then NO, I would not give or show anything unless required by the state's law. If there was a situation of confused identity I would do whatever necessary to clear it up.

Following the law has nothing to do with hate, disrespect or fear of authority, it is about self respect and civil liberties.

witheringfire

06-21-2008, 20:20

You are assuming people are guilty and must prove their innocence.

No... actually I was assuming that most people have enough common sense and respect to be aware that LEOs are simply doing their job and responding to calls; that LEOs have no hidden agenda and are concerned with public safety; that LEOs are decent men and women who have chosen to put themselves in a low paying, hazardous field because they have a desire to serve their community.

jhoagland

06-21-2008, 20:22

Alright, I read most of this and skipped the rest.
RE: Open carry. Would if I could but I can't so I won't.

If asked for ID I provide it straight away. Now they know who I am. Big deal. If they want to make something of it and I have done nothing wrong I will be ahead of the game in a court of law by not being an ass.

tone

06-21-2008, 21:06

Resqu2

06-21-2008, 21:48

Alright, im sorry, I have to...
Whether you are carrying or not, if an officer asks you for ID, give it to him/her. IT'S THE FREAKIN LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:patriot:

AND +1 FOR THIS:

"No... actually I was assuming that most people have enough common sense and respect to be aware that LEOs are simply doing their job and responding to calls; that LEOs have no hidden agenda and are concerned with public safety; that LEOs are decent men and women who have chosen to put themselves in a low paying, hazardous field because they have a desire to serve their community."

Tone, it's not the law here in VA, say while I'm out biking with my G27 on my side and I'm stopped, I have no ID with me, my biker shorts have no where for a billfold and I have no reason to risk losing it while riding so how am I going to show something that I'm not required to carry and that I don't have with me??

DocwithGlock

06-21-2008, 21:48

Alright, im sorry, I have to...
Whether you are carrying or not, if an officer asks you for ID, give it to him/her. IT'S THE FREAKIN LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That depends on the state you are in. Do you know which law requires it in Texas?

If it is the law I would do it. If the officer needs my help I will give it. If I feel I am being harassed and the law does not require it, I will be respectful but will not show ID.

Most LEOs are good at what they do and very respectful of the law and the people they have sworn to protect. Because most LEOs are good does not mean they can all do whatever they want.

If I refuse to show my ID (in a state that does not require it), when I am being harassed for open carrying and nothing more, there is a lack of respect... on the part of the officer who is harassing a citizen for no good reason.

SouthernBoyVA

06-21-2008, 22:49

Most of you with your negative attitude towards police in general wouldn't make a pimple on a policeman's ass. When I was in patrol I probably have asked hundreds of people for their ID because there was a valid reason. Those who refused went to jail. End of story

Doc

Nice attitude. Glad you're no longer running the streets.

Once more.. IDs are not required here in Virginia. Suppose you are out walking and are not carrying one - and you are not armed. In this case, you have no ID to show. If you were OC'ing, it wouldn't make any difference because you still would have no ID to show.

Gunnut 45/454

06-21-2008, 22:52

Bill Lumberg
According to my research on Hiibel it only applies to NV? As I don't see where it went past the Sixth District Court!! So when in NV show ID as requested.

cowboywannabe

06-21-2008, 22:54

folks lets face it, there are just some folks who will do anything to stir the pot unnecessarily just like there are some cops who are badge heavy.

thankfully those two types of people are few and far in between the decent folks who will show i.d. thus clearing themself of the alleged suspicion and the cops who need to feed thier ego.

i will tell you that the vast majority of cops are not out to hem somebody up just for the sake of doing so....too much paper work for a chicken **** charge that will only build a bad image of themselves in the courts they have to testify in.

just like the vast majority of folks who carry for protection be it open or concealed will simply show some i.d. because they have an inkling of what the cops have to do when they get a man with a gun call.

garebel

06-22-2008, 00:46

witheringfire

06-22-2008, 02:22

while I'm out biking with my G27 on my side and I'm stopped, I have no ID with me, my biker shorts have no where for a billfold and I have no reason to risk losing it while riding so how am I going to show something that I'm not required to carry and that I don't have with me??

Not carrying ID is foolish at best. What if you were to be struck by a car? Have some other type of accident and be unconscious? There are many other scenarios in which your ID would be necessary - not just when an LEO needs to view it.

When I run, I have no pockets on my shorts, etc. But my G26 carries nicely in a Desantis Gunny Sack Jr., along with my ID and badge. If you can't CC, the there are many other products designed to securely carry ID/wallet/etc. that can be used for concealment or sporting activity.

http://www.newyorkironworks.com/desanstyln33.html

http://www.newyorkironworks.com/desanstyl063.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/Covert-Neoprene-Ankle-Wallet-Holder_W0QQitemZ160229183468QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2996QQcmdZViewItem

Gunfighter13

06-22-2008, 03:02

I stand next to cops (armed of course) all the time. They're not bugging me about my weapon, because they don't see it. It's not something they need to waste their time worrying about.
Don’t think we don’t see it. Most of the time it’s how you act that get our attention. I’ve had people standing by me that I knew were armed and most of the time I just start up a conversation. Most of the time it ends with us talking about guns. Especially when I’m in uniform. I have also shocked a few people by telling them they were “printing”. No open carry in Texas unless hunting.

coloradokevin

06-22-2008, 04:40

I would be darned sure you do have a probable cause for detaining and demanding an ID otherwise you could find your department, and perhaps yourself, in a court of law facing a lawsuit. Be most careful in this area.

I appreciate your sentiment, but felt I should mention that I am only required to have a reasonable suspicion of a crime to temporarily detain and request a party's identity... Probable Cause is required for arresting that party.

And, while I don't want you to take this as a comment on you personally (as your posts seem well-balanced enough), I should mention that the lawsuit thing gets thrown around all the time for those of us who work in this field. Every cop who has worked the street for any length of time has likely been sued for something (I was sued over a parking ticket once). Frivalous lawsuits don't intimidate me, and most people who keep their lawyers on speed dial and scream about their "rights" are just blowing smoke ('cause I'm not violating their rights!).

I always have an articulable reason for stopping someone, and I've won in court a number of times when I've charged someone for their failure to cooperate in identifying themselves (either by lying, refusing to provide a name, etc).

To address some other things I've read in this thread:

I honestly feel that some of the later posters in this thread hit some very valid points:

1) The LE community as a whole is not out to get you. We're doing our job, and we aren't looking to play officer-authoritarian with the citizens we encounter.

2) Most folks are cooperative, and don't play these silly games with us in the first place. Like it or not, attitude means a lot! You get what you give in many cases (within the bounds of what I am legally authorized to do).

A case study on attitude:

I have a lot of bum traffic where I work, and I've dealt with two of my regulars this week (both moderately intoxicated, and publicly consuming an alcoholic beverage at the time of the stop... A city ticket charge, if we choose to write them).

-The first transient, "Albert", is typically very respectful. He always listens and complies with our requests, and answers us with "sir". He's a genuinely decent guy to deal with, albeit with a bit of an odor that the rest of us don't typically carry around. He tells us about his battle with alcoholism, and thanks us for looking out for him.

-The second transient, "Tommy", is always looking for a fight. As soon as we approach he starts dropping F-bombs, and telling us how he hopes we suffer any number of miserable deaths/plagues/accidents, etc. He ignores any of our orders, tells us he'll do what he wants, and tells us "how it's going to be".

Now, honestly, who do you suppose gets the ticket for Public Consumption every time, and who do you think occassionally gets off with a stern warning that he shouldn't be doing that?

3) Most decent citizens want to assist the police. The folks who play hardball are usually doing so for a reason. Most decent folks would prefer to help us reduce crime in their neighborhood, and are more than willing to assist us.

My final piece of advice on this subject:

If you want to play hardball with an officer because you believe you are within your rights to use X, Y, or Z tactic with them, go right ahead. It won't be the first time that the officer has dealt with that in his/her career. But, I'd strongly suggest you brush up on your case law regarding both search/seizure and investigative contacts, and pick up some legal advice somewhere other than the internet.

I can't say how any given contact with an officer might go, but I can tell you that there are an awful lot of folks running around out there who have a inflated view of what their rights are! I'll be the first to admit that officers aren't always correct (see the thread about Willoughby, OH police from a few days ago), but it isn't safe to always assume that they are wrong either!

Resqu2

06-22-2008, 05:45

Not carrying ID is foolish at best. What if you were to be struck by a car? Have some other type of accident and be unconscious? There are many other scenarios in which your ID would be necessary - not just when an LEO needs to view it.

When I run, I have no pockets on my shorts, etc. But my G26 carries nicely in a Desantis Gunny Sack Jr., along with my ID and badge. If you can't CC, the there are many other products designed to securely carry ID/wallet/etc. that can be used for concealment or sporting activity.

http://www.newyorkironworks.com/desanstyln33.html

http://www.newyorkironworks.com/desanstyl063.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/Covert-Neoprene-Ankle-Wallet-Holder_W0QQitemZ160229183468QQihZ006QQcategoryZ2996QQcmdZViewItem

I have to admit that you brought up some good points, never really considered those situations. Thanks for the links also. :wavey:

Bill Lumberg

06-22-2008, 06:23

Hiibel is case law followed by law enforcement across the country. You are correct that the case cited was Hiibel vs. 6th District court of NV. You are incorrect that the ruling doesn't color outside Nevada. Not very good research. This might help: http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/21/scotus.police.id/

http://papersplease.org/hiibel/_pdf/03-5554o.pdf

The second link is from goofball's own website- it is the actual opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS). :cop:

Bill Lumberg
According to my research on Hiibel it only applies to NV? As I don't see where it went past the Sixth District Court!! So when in NV show ID as requested.

hikerpaddler

06-22-2008, 06:30

Free clue for you- Hiible is taught in academies far and wide, and absolutely does apply in other states. To assert otherwise show a fundamental understanding of how caselaw works. Rulings such as Hiibel shape and are referenced in rulings from that point forward, in any state where a relevant case comes up.

free clue for you Bill, Hiibel is only valid in NV, no other state provided there is no id statute.

Blitzer

06-22-2008, 06:35

Tone, it's not the law here in VA, say while I'm out biking with my G27 on my side and I'm stopped, I have no ID with me, my biker shorts have no where for a billfold and I have no reason to risk losing it while riding so how am I going to show something that I'm not required to carry and that I don't have with me??

:upeyes: :whistling: :dunno:

Resqu2

06-22-2008, 07:07

:upeyes: :whistling: :dunno:

Not sure I understand your post concerning what you quoted me on? :dunno:

Ryobi

06-22-2008, 07:23

series1811

06-22-2008, 08:10

NEVER! The Constitution only bestows rights, not responsiblities.

I owe nobody nothing! This country is just lucky to have me, OC or not.

SouthernBoyVA

06-22-2008, 08:30

I appreciate your sentiment, but felt I should mention that I am only required to have a reasonable suspicion of a crime to temporarily detain and request a party's identity... Probable Cause is required for arresting that party.

And, while I don't want you to take this as a comment on you personally (as your posts seem well-balanced enough), I should mention that the lawsuit thing gets thrown around all the time for those of us who work in this field. Every cop who has worked the street for any length of time has likely been sued for something (I was sued over a parking ticket once). Frivalous lawsuits don't intimidate me, and most people who keep their lawyers on speed dial and scream about their "rights" are just blowing smoke ('cause I'm not violating their rights!).

I always have an articulable reason for stopping someone, and I've won in court a number of times when I've charged someone for their failure to cooperate in identifying themselves (either by lying, refusing to provide a name, etc).

To address some other things I've read in this thread:

I honestly feel that some of the later posters in this thread hit some very valid points:

1) The LE community as a whole is not out to get you. We're doing our job, and we aren't looking to play officer-authoritarian with the citizens we encounter.

2) Most folks are cooperative, and don't play these silly games with us in the first place. Like it or not, attitude means a lot! You get what you give in many cases (within the bounds of what I am legally authorized to do).

A case study on attitude:

I have a lot of bum traffic where I work, and I've dealt with two of my regulars this week (both moderately intoxicated, and publicly consuming an alcoholic beverage at the time of the stop... A city ticket charge, if we choose to write them).

-The first transient, "Albert", is typically very respectful. He always listens and complies with our requests, and answers us with "sir". He's a genuinely decent guy to deal with, albeit with a bit of an odor that the rest of us don't typically carry around. He tells us about his battle with alcoholism, and thanks us for looking out for him.

-The second transient, "Tommy", is always looking for a fight. As soon as we approach he starts dropping F-bombs, and telling us how he hopes we suffer any number of miserable deaths/plagues/accidents, etc. He ignores any of our orders, tells us he'll do what he wants, and tells us "how it's going to be".

Now, honestly, who do you suppose gets the ticket for Public Consumption every time, and who do you think occassionally gets off with a stern warning that he shouldn't be doing that?

3) Most decent citizens want to assist the police. The folks who play hardball are usually doing so for a reason. Most decent folks would prefer to help us reduce crime in their neighborhood, and are more than willing to assist us.

My final piece of advice on this subject:

If you want to play hardball with an officer because you believe you are within your rights to use X, Y, or Z tactic with them, go right ahead. It won't be the first time that the officer has dealt with that in his/her career. But, I'd strongly suggest you brush up on your case law regarding both search/seizure and investigative contacts, and pick up some legal advice somewhere other than the internet.

I can't say how any given contact with an officer might go, but I can tell you that there are an awful lot of folks running around out there who have a inflated view of what their rights are! I'll be the first to admit that officers aren't always correct (see the thread about Willoughby, OH police from a few days ago), but it isn't safe to always assume that they are wrong either!

Firstly, I wish to thank you for your respectful and succinct response to one of my posts. Based upon some of the rabid postings on this thread, yours is refreshing.

If you read other of my posts on this thread, you will note that I presented several sides to the topic at hand and then I presented what my take might likely be were I to be confronted by an LEO. You might also notice my comments on Virginia LEOs and my nearly 100% positive rating with them. So while it might appear as though I am playing several sides against the middle or maybe playing devil's advocate, all I am really offering is food for thought for both citizens who might be OC'ing AND for LEOs who might decide to initiate an encounter.

I would bet a months pay that while police see most everything society has to offer, more often than not, what they see most is the less-than-upstanding-citizenry. Let's face it. If you're doing nothing wrong, the chance of a questionable encounter with an officer is rather remote. Most are not out to bother people who are going about their day and their lives in a "normal" fashion. Still there are a few who have acquired the God complex (like some surgeons?) and as such, forget that their duty is to serve the community.. not to make life miserable for its members.

Back to the ID thing which seems to really be a problem with some. I would imagine that not one of the 50 states requires an ID to be carried at all times, but I certainly don't know this to be fact. So my question is.. which, if any, states do require an ID to be on one's person when the person is not on their property?

Ryobi

06-22-2008, 08:53

In TN, you are required to have your permit on your person if you are non-LE and carrying a handgun, and to show it upon request.

Back to the ID thing which seems to really be a problem with some. I would imagine that not one of the 50 states requires an ID to be carried at all times, but I certainly don't know this to be fact. So my question is.. which, if any, states do require an ID to be on one's person when the person is not on their property?

target17

06-22-2008, 09:14

Actually most of those Internet big mouths don't carry recorders and either would cooperate or act so badly that they find themselves thrown in jail. They wish they were so cool. :upeyes:

You had better know your states laws regarding Identifying yourself to a Peace Officer if you plan to refuse to ID.

I'm in total agreement with you, a lot of these guy's that go on about how they really gave the dumb cop what for and sent them on there way with there tail between there legs are blowing smoke. I would like to thank most people would not be so dumb as to think you can do this and not go to jail. That you can tell the officer you will NOT comply and he will say okay and just walk away
What is the saying, you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride??
All so there is a lot of really bad guys get busted over a simple traffic stop.

SouthernBoyVA

06-22-2008, 09:54

In TN, you are required to have your permit on your person if you are non-LE and carrying a handgun, and to show it upon request.

With my question about IDs, I meant just having it on your person when not carrying an arm.. as in unarmed. Which, if any, states require people to carry an ID when out and about?

Resqu2

06-22-2008, 14:17

requ2- Your quoted post is comical. Hiibel (valid in all 50 states) is about requiring you to identify yourself, not about carrying a drivers license or other papers. In states where you are required to have your permit on you, wearing shorts is not a defense for failure to provide your permit.

Sir, Nothing comical intended, I'm not refering to a ccw permit which is required while ccw'ing. If I'm out walking my dog or riding my bike and my gun is in plain view then I am NOT required to carry any papers with me at all. In VA you do NOT have to have a permit to OC, matter of fact people who do not have a permit can OC more places than someone with a permit can CCW.

Laws may be different in your state but good ol VA is a Gold Star open carry state.

Thorazine

06-22-2008, 14:32

I would ask why first.

-Is there a problem?
-Am I under arest?
-Am I free to go?

I wouldn't see a problem giving ID, but I would want to know what for.

Same approach I would take.

However bump it up one more notch.

They request to disarm you while they run your identification.

(sigh)

solomansousana

06-22-2008, 14:49

It would simply be in your own best interests at THAT moment, to defer to the officer. If you feel you were treated wrongly, or innapropriately, that's one reason that internal affairs offices have been established. But you also have to look at this from the LEO position. Your F2F with a stranger carrying a weapon, you have no idea of his intentions, and for his safety, as well as the LEO, you ask to hold his weapon until such time as his identity can be established, making sure their are no wants or warrants out. After this, you return the id, weapon, and thank the person for being understanding.

The only point of this I really don't care for is the actual handling of the firearm. As we all know, the more you handle a loaded weapon, the better chance Mr. Murphy can make an appearance.

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 15:22

But you also have to look at this from the LEO position. Your F2F with a stranger carrying a weapon, you have no idea of his intentions, and for his safety, as well as the LEO, you ask to hold his weapon until such time as his identity can be established, making sure their are no wants or warrants out. After this, you return the id, weapon, and thank the person for being understanding.

The only point of this I really don't care for is the actual handling of the firearm. As we all know, the more you handle a loaded weapon, the better chance Mr. Murphy can make an appearance.

The officer is a stranger carrying a weapon also. Anyone can buy a uniform and a badge. I would not want anyone to disarm me unless I know they are a real officer. How about this... we exchange IDs and weapons:supergrin:

doubletap1

06-22-2008, 15:42

The officer is a stranger carrying a weapon also. Anyone can buy a uniform and a badge. I would not want anyone to disarm me unless I know they are a real officer. How about this... we exchange IDs and weapons:supergrin:

:upeyes:

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 16:05

:upeyes:

I'm glad you think what I wrote is silly, because it is the same justification used for harassing someone whose only wrongdoing in the eyes of the police is they have a gun. If a man with a gun gives any reasonable suspicion to be stopped and or searched (beyond just having a gun) I have no porblem with that.

doubletap1

06-22-2008, 16:23

I'm glad you think what I wrote is silly, because it is the same justification used for harassing someone whose only wrongdoing in the eyes of the police is they have a gun.

You are not the police. You don't have a duty to protect the public, and openly carrying a firearm doesn't give you that responsibility.

If a man with a gun gives any reasonable suspicion to be stopped and or searched (beyond just having a gun) I have no porblem with that.

:deadhorse:

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 16:46

You are not the police. You don't have a duty to protect the public, and openly carrying a firearm doesn't give you that responsibility.

:deadhorse:

I am quite aware of that. I don't know what horse you think is being beat.

Try to pay attention.

Resqu2

06-22-2008, 17:18

I am quite aware of that. I don't know what horse you think is being beat.

Try to pay attention.

Hey Doc,
DT1 is against OC and anyone who does OC. No use waisting time arguing with him. :wavey:

Sam Spade

06-22-2008, 17:20

Bill Lumberg
According to my research on Hiibel it only applies to NV? As I don't see where it went past the Sixth District Court!! So when in NV show ID as requested.

It went to SCOTUS. http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZS.html

Held: Petitioner’s conviction does not violate his Fourth Amendment rights or the Fifth Amendment’s prohibition on self-incrimination. Pp. 3—13.

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 17:22

Hey Doc,
DT1 is against OC and anyone who does OC. No use waisting time arguing with him. :wavey:

Thanks! I didn't know that OC made someone an LEO in his mind.

Aran

06-22-2008, 17:22

You are not the police. You don't have a duty to protect the public, and openly carrying a firearm doesn't give you that responsibility.

And the police don't have a duty to harass every citizen who's merely participating in Constitutionally protected actions, either.

Gunnut 45/454

06-22-2008, 17:57

Bill Lumberg
Thanks for the link! The others on the first post didn't go beyond the Sixth Court! So Basically you give the cop ID then shut the hell up!! Not a problem. So why if this is the law do I see time after time on COPS that the cops just let everyone go that doesn't have a ID!! That should mean and instant arrest should it not- or do they just apply the law as they see fit!! I mean 9 out 10 people they stop driving have neither ID nor a Lincense!!!

Warp

06-22-2008, 17:58

Looks like I missed a good bit here when out internet was down.

So I'll just answer the question. I most likely would, by by default.

If I am being treated poorly, talked down to, etc right up front I may very well excercise all of my rights to their fullest...politely...but firmly.

"Am I free to go?" comes to mind.

Sam Spade

06-22-2008, 18:22

With my question about IDs, I meant just having it on your person when not carrying an arm.. as in unarmed. Which, if any, states require people to carry an ID when out and about?

There are none.

Prometheus77

06-22-2008, 18:34

With my question about IDs, I meant just having it on your person when not carrying an arm.. as in unarmed. Which, if any, states require people to carry an ID when out and about?

I'd like to see an answer to that as well. Here in Indiana you don't have to produce ID if out on foot, bicycle ect. ect.

I can tell you this much, you do NOT have to carry ID (let alone show it) in:
FLA
PA
IN
VA
NH

for simply being "out and about". Heck in VA, NH and PA if you are open carrying you still don't have to produce ID.

You DO have to verbally identify yourself upon request by LEO (for virtually any reason they want), but you do NOT have to show any state issued cards or papers.

Here in Indiana it's a moot point for me since when I'm out I'm armed (CC or OC) and by law I have to show my LTCH upon request.

When I lived in PA and I was OC'ing if a LEO approached me and asked for ID for any reason other than I was simply OC'ing, I'd produce it without hesitation so they could move on and go find whoever it was they were looking for. I'm not looking to impede what I view as a legitimate investigation. If it was simply because I was OC'ing I'd do the same thing as the original guy in the video (not striped shirt guy) from NH and refuse to show ID but I would verbally identify myself. If a LEO wants to screw with me over simple OC, it's time to break out the snickers bars because I'm not making it any easier and I'm asserting my Rights.

These things are usually a mental exercise anyway, I've never been stopped by a LEO for carrying a weapon. Guess I've just been lucky :upeyes:

Warp

06-22-2008, 18:43

These things are usually a mental exercise anyway, I've never been stopped by a LEO for carrying a weapon. Guess I've just been lucky :upeyes:

Neither have I.

Openly in four states and counting, many a time.

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 18:50

I'd like to see an answer to that as well. Here in Indiana you don't have to produce ID if out on foot, bicycle ect. ect.

I can tell you this much, you do NOT have to carry ID (let alone show it) in:
FLA
PA
IN
VA
NH

for simply being "out and about". Heck in VA, NH and PA if you are open carrying you still don't have to produce ID.

You DO have to verbally identify yourself upon request by LEO (for virtually any reason they want), but you do NOT have to show any state issued cards or papers.

Here in Indiana it's a moot point for me since when I'm out I'm armed (CC or OC) and by law I have to show my LTCH upon request.

When I lived in PA and I was OC'ing if a LEO approached me and asked for ID for any reason other than I was simply OC'ing, I'd produce it without hesitation so they could move on and go find whoever it was they were looking for. I'm not looking to impede what I view as a legitimate investigation. If it was simply because I was OC'ing I'd do the same thing as the original guy in the video (not striped shirt guy) from NH and refuse to show ID but I would verbally identify myself. If a LEO wants to screw with me over simple OC, it's time to break out the snickers bars because I'm not making it any easier and I'm asserting my Rights.

These things are usually a mental exercise anyway, I've never been stopped by a LEO for carrying a weapon. Guess I've just been lucky :upeyes:

+1 Good post.

Sam Spade

06-22-2008, 19:02

There are none.

As in zero, zilch, nada.

Bozz

06-22-2008, 20:11

Alright, I have read pages upon pages since I gave my initial answer to this question. But, after reading all this I still have a SIMPLE one:

WHY wouldn't you just provide ID to the police officer if you didn't have anything to hide?

This debate makes no sense to me.... some of you people really must have a problem with authority. I've found in my short 36 years that you get about as much respect as you GIVE. Treat the police like you've got something to prove, and you escalate the chances of being "harassed".

99.9% of them are just out there to do a job, and want nothing more than for you to be who you say you are, your record clean, and go about their business.

If I comply and become harassed, then it is time to shut up (but comply), and dig out my attorneys number.

Bozz

Warp

06-22-2008, 20:18

Alright, I have read pages upon pages since I gave my initial answer to this question. But, after reading all this I still have a SIMPLE one:

WHY wouldn't you just provide ID to the police officer if you didn't have anything to hide?

This debate makes no sense to me.... some of you people really must have a problem with authority. I've found in my short 36 years that you get about as much respect as you GIVE. Treat the police like you've got something to prove, and you escalate the chances of being "harassed".

99.9% of them are just out there to do a job, and want nothing more than for you to be who you say you are, your record clean, and go about their business.

If I comply and become harassed, then it is time to shut up (but comply), and dig out my attorneys number.

Bozz

Because some people like excercising their rights. Some people just don't like having to show their government issued identification for a check by the government when they have done absolutely nothing illegal, nor wrong.

If (not) doing so is legal for them....that's their choice.

DocwithGlock

06-22-2008, 20:35

WHY wouldn't you just provide ID to the police officer if you didn't have anything to hide?

For the same reason I don't want to provide my bank info, my home computer files, a list of the books I read, a blood and stool sample, or anything else that they have no warrant for.

I am not a criminal and have nothing to hide at the moment. That can change if the government changes the rules and makes gun ownership illegal, or decides that people of a certain ethnic background, or religious beliefs, or the wrong friends, or people with certain medical conditions should be put in camps. It has happened before and the people it happened to never thought it would happen to them or in their country.

The words "papers please" should send chills down every freedom loving American's back:steamed:

Prometheus77

06-22-2008, 21:20

Alright, I have read pages upon pages since I gave my initial answer to this question. But, after reading all this I still have a SIMPLE one:

WHY wouldn't you just provide ID to the police officer if you didn't have anything to hide?

Simple answer, the government ALWAYS takes and takes. RICO laws for example started out just for big gansters like Al Capone, today they are used to justify taking a persons car for DUI. In some areas cities have fought to take (read STEAL) a car under RICO laws from a man who let his friend borrow the car with no knowledge the friend would be driving it drunk.

THAT is why. How about seat belt check points? From it'll only be a secondary vilolation to we can stop for it to friggin rolling road blocks... they take and take and take.

This isn't Nazi Germany and I certainly don't want the inevitable next step of "papers please" at random intersections. The random LEO on the street doesn't want it, but their masters certainly do.

Like I've said I've got no problem showing ID to speed up an investigation of them looking for someone whose description I fit so they can quickly move on to find the real bad guy, thats different.

I am not a subject or slave. I will not be harassed (and I view asking for ID 'just because' or for simply carrying a gun as such). I have Rights. I also have a Forth Amendment protection to be "secure in my person, papers and possessions". Some random LEO walking up and demanding them (without REAL probable cause) is a clear violation of that. I have a Right to walk down the street and not be harassed, by joe-sixpack or joe-LEO.

Warp

06-22-2008, 21:37

Simple answer, the government ALWAYS takes and takes. RICO laws for example started out just for big gansters like Al Capone, today they are used to justify taking a persons car for DUI. In some areas cities have fought to take (read STEAL) a car under RICO laws from a man who let his friend borrow the car with no knowledge the friend would be driving it drunk.

THAT is why. How about seat belt check points? From it'll only be a secondary vilolation to we can stop for it to friggin rolling road blocks... they take and take and take.

This isn't Nazi Germany and I certainly don't want the inevitable next step of "papers please" at random intersections. The random LEO on the street doesn't want it, but their masters certainly do.

Like I've said I've got no problem showing ID to speed up an investigation of them looking for someone whose description I fit so they can quickly move on to find the real bad guy, thats different.

I am not a subject or slave. I will not be harassed (and I view asking for ID 'just because' or for simply carrying a gun as such). I have Rights. I also have a Forth Amendment protection to be "secure in my person, papers and possessions". Some random LEO walking up and demanding them (without REAL probable cause) is a clear violation of that. I have a Right to walk down the street and not be harassed, by joe-sixpack or joe-LEO.

I agree.

But you might want to look more into the differences between and applicatoin of probable cause vs reasonable suspicion.

Habu

06-22-2008, 21:50

Don’t think we don’t see it. Most of the time it’s how you act that get our attention. I’ve had people standing by me that I knew were armed and most of the time I just start up a conversation. Most of the time it ends with us talking about guns. Especially when I’m in uniform. I have also shocked a few people by telling them they were “printing”. No open carry in Texas unless hunting.

Doesn't really matter to me if you notice it or not. If you do, good on ya for bein' perceptive, heck, that's your job. And when you want to ask me for my ID, my permit, or whatever, I'll gladly smile and hand 'em over. :wavey: You are the law as an LEO, and I respect that.:cool:

I can't believe there's even a "debate" on whether a citizen with nothing to hide would or would not COMPLY with law enforcement. The idea is ridiculous.

Warp

06-22-2008, 21:52

Doesn't really matter to me if you notice it or not. If you do, good on ya for bein' perceptive, heck, that's your job. And when you want to ask me for my ID, my permit, or whatever, I'll gladly smile and hand 'em over. :wavey: You are the law as an LEO, and I respect that.:cool:

I can't believe there's even a "debate" on whether a citizen with nothing to hide would or would not COMPLY with law enforcement. The idea is ridiculous.

Not exactly.

Habu

06-22-2008, 23:14

Not exactly.

Elaborate. Maybe I should have said the LEO REPRESENTS the law, or CARRIES OUT the law, or whatever.

Semantics. You know what I mean.

Anyone who wouldn't comply with a simple LEO request such as "ID/Permit please" is, as Mr. Bill Lumberg pointed out 2 or 3 pages ago, an idiot. Period.

Get real people.

certifiedfunds

06-22-2008, 23:23

RickD

06-22-2008, 23:35

Actually most of those Internet big mouths don't carry recorders and either would cooperate or act so badly that they find themselves thrown in jail. They wish they were so cool. :upeyes:

You had better know your states laws regarding Identifying yourself to a Peace Officer if you plan to refuse to ID.

I'm on record and in practice with a big NO. I was confronted by Tempe, Arizona PD (about four of them) when I was carrying openly and sitting on a street-side bench. One said he needed my name for his "report." I asked them to cite the statute that required me to comply their "request." They huddled and couldn't come up with anything.

Habu

06-22-2008, 23:35

"if authorities show up at your door....."

Apples and oranges, dude.

Get real.

I've seen some pretty arrogant and downright idiotic opinions in this thread. You're all entitled to them, I guess.

These retarded comparisons to Nazi Germany, Police State talk...........good grief dudes. Really.:upeyes:

Just sad that we're not all on the same sheet of music on this one.

So for all of you who are gonna have some kinda defiant debate with LEO in this kind of situation, waste their time, make a big idiotic scene (when a concealed weapon could've avoided the whole problem! Yeah.), instead of just complying with a simple and reasonable request......thanks for makin' armed civilians look like crap. Thanks. Really.:faint:

This thread is takin' the usual downward spiral, so I'm done, quote me with retarded rebuttals if you wish, I'm done.

I take comfort in the fact, though, that some of you do GET IT.

winchester62

06-22-2008, 23:37

Elaborate. Maybe I should have said the LEO REPRESENTS the law, or CARRIES OUT the law, or whatever.

Semantics. You know what I mean.

Anyone who wouldn't comply with a simple LEO request such as "ID/Permit please" is, as Mr. Bill Lumberg pointed out 2 or 3 pages ago, an idiot. Period.

Get real people.

Hmmmmm.... regardless of that opinion, TX (no open carry here) does not require me to produce ID if I'm not driving. If an officer stops me on the sidewalk for "reasonable suspision," I can simply say nothing. I may not provide false information about who I am or I would be violating the law. Also, if I'm being arrested, I must now give name, DOB and address..., but I still don't have to pony up an ID.

This is what the law says. If I understand Hiibel correctly, if TX were to change the law to state that I must show ID, they would be within the bounds of that case decision. Until then, I wouldn't have to come up with ID just because "the man" asked. I'm not saying I wouldn't if asked respectfully - and it would mean I could move along a bit quicker, but it would depend on the situation.

witheringfire

06-23-2008, 00:24

"if authorities show up at your door....."
These retarded comparisons to Nazi Germany, Police State talk...........good grief dudes. Really.:upeyes:...

...So for all of you who are gonna have some kinda defiant debate with LEO in this kind of situation, waste their time, make a big idiotic scene (when a concealed weapon could've avoided the whole problem! Yeah.), instead of just complying with a simple and reasonable request......thanks for makin' armed civilians look like crap. Thanks. Really.:faint:

Kind of childish really; but I guess they feel they have "something to prove", or they just have unresolved personal issues with authority. But you are correct: That type of attitude and behavior only makes armed civilians look like people who...shouldn't be armed.

Most of the time, it's the gun control advocates that work to erode firearms rights. But sometimes, gun owners do a fair job all on their own with their attitudes and actions

Aran

06-23-2008, 00:27

Most of the time, it's the gun control advocates that work to erode firearms rights. But sometimes, gun owners do a fair job all on their own with their attitudes and actions

Exactly. Those who would question someone who's simply following the law and doing nothing wrong are very harmful to their own rights.

DocwithGlock

06-23-2008, 00:49

[QUOTE=Habu;10727889So for all of you who are gonna have some kinda defiant debate with LEO in this kind of situation, waste their time, make a big idiotic scene (when a concealed weapon could've avoided the whole problem! Yeah.), instead of just complying with a simple and reasonable request......thanks for makin' armed civilians look like crap. Thanks. Really.:faint:
[/QUOTE]

Who is wasting who's time if the LEO stops to investigate a perfectly legal activity? The only one making a scene, if no law is being broken, would be the officer.

What resonable suspicion would there be to detain a person who is exercising their rights? Should they be allowed to detain and get ID from people expressing their free speech rights? How about just stopping random black people driving and coming up with a lame excuse for the stop?

DocwithGlock

06-23-2008, 00:53

Kind of childish really; but I guess they feel they have "something to prove", or they just have unresolved personal issues with authority. But you are correct: That type of attitude and behavior only makes armed civilians look like people who...shouldn't be armed.

Most of the time, it's the gun control advocates that work to erode firearms rights. But sometimes, gun owners do a fair job all on their own with their attitudes and actions

I'm curious, what other LEGAL activities do you feel you have a right to stop people for?

Sam Spade

06-23-2008, 00:57

I'm on record and in practice with a big NO. I was confronted by Tempe, Arizona PD (about four of them) when I was carrying openly and sitting on a street-side bench. One said he needed my name for his "report." I asked them to cite the statute that required me to comply their "request." They huddled and couldn't come up with anything.

mmmm...I'll believe that since you were there. But your course of action doesn't always hold true in AZ.

13-2412. Refusing to provide truthful name when lawfully detained; classification

A. It is unlawful for a person, after being advised that the person's refusal to answer is unlawful, to fail or refuse to state the person's true full name on request of a peace officer who has lawfully detained the person based on reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. A person detained under this section shall state the person's true full name, but shall not be compelled to answer any other inquiry of a peace officer.

B. A person who violates this section is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.

Sam Spade

06-23-2008, 01:02

I'm curious, what other LEGAL activities do you feel you have a right to stop people for?

So there was this guy wearing socks on his hands. He was on a public sidewalk at about 0200, just looking around and pacing at the corner. Look up that street, down the other. Repeat. wouldn't make contact with anyone who passed by.

All legal activities, I'll point out, though you can see that for yourself.

I stopped him, and it was good.

DocwithGlock

06-23-2008, 01:17

So there was this guy wearing socks on his hands. He was on a public sidewalk at about 0200, just looking around and pacing at the corner. Look up that street, down the other. Repeat. wouldn't make contact with anyone who passed by.

All legal activities, I'll point out, though you can see that for yourself.

I stopped him, and it was good.

You stopped him because of his suspicous activity. The problem I see is that a constitutionally protected activity has become RAS by itself.

You can legally stop and ask anyone you want a question, but in many states you have to have a RAS to detain someone. I guess my real question is, Is the act of legally carrying a holstered gun in public reason enough to detain someone?

Sam Spade

06-23-2008, 01:28

You stopped him because of his suspicous activity. The problem I see is that a constitutionally protected activity has become RAS by itself.

You can legally stop and ask anyone you want a question, but in many states you have to have a RAS to detain someone. I guess my real question is, Is the act of legally carrying a holstered gun in public reason enough to detain someone?

This post clarifies your earlier one, and I'm inclined to agree.

No, the exercise of a right, in and of itself, doesn't make the RS cut. For example, a guy was recently arrested as a prohibited possessor (Pacific NW, I think) after he was stopped for carrying two long guns, wrapped in a blanket, down the street. The name check that followed the stop found his felony past (and the guns were stolen, IIRC). The stop was suppressed, and so everything that followed went away. Sorry, I forget any details of what court and so on. It was either a state supreme court decision or 9th Circuit.

DocwithGlock

06-23-2008, 01:39

This post clarifies your earlier one, and I'm inclined to agree.

No, the exercise of a right, in and of itself, doesn't make the RS cut.

Thanks Sam. To be real clear, I would help an officer in any way I could for just about any reason. However, if I ask why I am being stopped and the reason I get is because I am (legally) armed (and nothing more), I will not give ID (unless required by that state's law), but I will give my name if asked. A complaint will be made.
If I am stopped and an officer wants to see some ID because they suspect I am someone they are looking for , I would give my ID to clear up the situation.

I have the utmost respect for those in law enforcement, but I will not be helpful when getting my rights infringed upon.

RickD

06-23-2008, 01:42

mmmm...I'll believe that since you were there. But your course of action doesn't always hold true in AZ.

Given. However, I wasn't being "detained." I got the full command-presence, "Are you refusing to give ID for my report?" The story can be searched at thefiringline.com IIRC, complete with another witness. I can give you e-mail addresses of others who were there.

betyourlife

06-23-2008, 01:43

PA...at least outside of philly.

for more, see any of the relatively recent threads on the "dickson city incident" in which rich banks was arrested...and then "unarrested"...for doing exactly that. his lawsuit is now pending.

Good for him. He will have the last laugh.

ArtificialGrape

06-23-2008, 01:52

I can't believe there's even a "debate" on whether a citizen with nothing to hide would or would not COMPLY with law enforcement. The idea is ridiculous.

Ridiculous is the premise that somebody with nothing to hide should blindly comply with a request just becomes it comes from law enforcement.

The "authorities show up at your door" premise isn't apples and oranges, more shades of gray. What about the request to have a look inside your car or in your trunk in the course of a traffic stop. With nothing to hide I can't see why you, Habu, would refuse to cooperate.

As far as the original scenario, I expect that I would be respectful but terse, provide my ID, and hopefully soon be on my way.

betyourlife

06-23-2008, 01:55

betyourlife

06-23-2008, 01:58

Ridiculous is the premise that somebody with nothing to hide should blindly comply with a request just becomes it comes from law enforcement.

The "authorities show up at your door" premise isn't apples and oranges, more shades of gray. What about the request to have a look inside your car or in your trunk in the course of a traffic stop. With nothing to hide I can't see why you would refuse to cooperate.

As far as the original scenario, I expect that I would be respectful but terse, provide my ID, and hopefully soon be on my way.

It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves...

d3athp3nguin

06-23-2008, 03:20

Let's face it: when open-carrying, I know that I'm attracting a lot of attention for it. If I'm OCing and a cop asks me for ID, I'll ask them why they want to see it. If they simply say that they got a "man with a gun" call and are investigating it, then I don't mind assisting them in resolving their investigation by showing them an ID. If they start the conversation by detaining me, harassing me off the bat or saying "what are you doing here" then I'll play civil liberties 101 with them. I would be much more inquisitive if I was CCing or weaponless and got stopped for no apparent reason.

I don't usually OC, but I like the ability to do so when I feel the need to.

I will most often OC when entering or exiting a bar (stupid Virginia CC laws) or when headed to the range. Never had problems with the police; not even while OCing close to Virginia Tech after the Cho shooting.

coloradokevin

06-23-2008, 03:29

The words "papers please" should send chills down every freedom loving American's back:steamed:

Except that asking someone for their "papers" and asking someone to identify themself are two entirely different subjects.

I'm so tired of hearing people respond to these sorts of threads on gun forums by stating "papers please", or "I don't need to 'show my papers' on request".

The difference should be clearly noted that the cold war cliche of "showing your papers" is not about identifying yourself. Rather it was about showing papers that served as a legally mandated de facto travel visa for citizens within these oppressed countries... It was, in essence, a requirement to have a governmental approved privilege of being able to exercise any small amount of the freedom that we, as Americans, have always agreed are within the scope of our inherent rights (such as an ability to travel where you want, when you want, without permission from the government).

So, when a law enforcement officer contacts someone with reasonable suspicion that some crime (no matter how small) may have taken place, and requests that person's identification, it is not the same as contacting someone and saying "papers, please".

Back to the ID thing which seems to really be a problem with some. I would imagine that not one of the 50 states requires an ID to be carried at all times, but I certainly don't