Gold Dot "LE" ?

[RUSH2112]

What's the difference between regular GD and GD Law Enforcement?

[vanilla_gorilla]

20 round boxes vs 50 round boxes

[Dandapani]

20 round boxes vs 50 round boxes

Or more precisely: $20 for 20 round boxes vs $20 for 50 round boxes. :tongueout::rofl::wavey:

[RUSH2112]

Streicher's has GD for $27/50

Ammunition to GO has GD(LE) for $25/50
and GD for $21/20.

I'll simplify the question for you guys (pictures) :tongueout:

Which of these is what most people refer to when they say gold dot?
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/images/golddotlebox.jpg


or

http://www.streichers.com/productimages/550_750/cci-golddotle50box.gif

[DRT]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.

[RUSH2112]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.

Hold still, let me test 'em.

Actually I'm sure that's true, plus they cost less than GD right now.

[ProCarryNAustin]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.

Interesting statement. Can you provide some links for this?

Daniel

[magiaaron]

I thought the LE had a bonded core, but I can't really remember.

-magiaaron

[Gunfighter13]

The top LE ammo right now is Gold Dots, Ranger-T, HST Bonded and TAP red box. Find the best price on any of the four and you will be OK. No difference in the GD other than the boxes.

[DRT]

HST is not bonded....go back to sleep now.

[sigcalcatrant]

I thought the LE had a bonded core, but I can't really remember.

-magiaaronAll Gold Dots are bonded due to the method that deposits the jacket onto the lead core. It's sort of like a really thick plating.

[Merkavaboy]

HST is not bonded....go back to sleep now.

Nor is Hornady a major player in the law enforcement ammunition contracts by any means.

[MURRAY]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.



I dont know about that.......

[DRT]

Then stay in denial and buy GD.

[vanilla_gorilla]

Then stay in denial and buy GD.

Doubting your opinion is hardly "denial."

Some people would gladly take a bonded JHP over a non-bonded JHP, such as the HST and most Ranger-T. The bonding process makes for a tougher bullet that expands less, as the GD and Ranger-T Bonded show.

[DRT]

It isnt my opinion, it's objective facts based upon LEO terminal ballistics testing by the company that makes them both.

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf

Move on with your life and buy what you want.

.

[BrianNH]

The Gold Dot LE load is a reduced power load, it has nothing to do with how they are packaged.

Back when certain departments were having problems with the G22's, ATK determined that the standard GD round was a bit too hot and that it contributed to certain weapon malfunctions. The LE load was offered as a solution.

[tsmo1066]

"Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST."

IIRC, Gold Dot is currently filling more police firearms than just about all the other major brands combined.

Last I checked, Gold Dot controlled close to half of the LEO market with all other brands vying for comparatively small scraps of the other half.

Doesn't make Gold Dot the best, or necessarily even my personal favorite (I'm an HST man when I carry .40), but Gold Dot has a proven, 'real world' track record that's hard to beat.

[BrianNH]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.

Why even bring that up, it has nothing to do with the OP's question?

[RUSH2112]

The Gold Dot LE load is a reduced power load, it has nothing to do with how they are packaged.

Back when certain departments were having problems with the G22's, ATK determined that the standard GD round was a bit too hot and that it contributed to certain weapon malfunctions. The LE load was offered as a solution.

That's the kind of info I was looking for, thanks! :wavey: I have a couple boxes of GD LE in 9mm, and before I buy the next batch I wanted to get this cleared up.

For the .40 I've been buying HST.

[DRT]

"Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST."

IIRC, Gold Dot is currently filling more police firearms than just about all the other major brands combined.

Last I checked, Gold Dot controlled close to half of the LEO market with all other brands vying for comparatively small scraps of the other half.

Doesn't make Gold Dot the best, or necessarily even my personal favorite (I'm an HST man when I carry .40), but Gold Dot has a proven, 'real world' track record that's hard to beat.

yeah, well look how many departments still issue hydrashok thinking they've got the latest and greatest. NYPD would have gone with Ranger T if they had their choice but it didnt happen for political and public relations reasons. Or how about Detroit PD with EFMJ cause they can't issue HP ammo. Bottom line is that there are many reasons, other than performance, for departments to select a certain line of duty ammo. You can choose to believe or ignore the terminal ballistics data. I don't really care what you load in your weapon.

[DRT]

The Gold Dot LE load is a reduced power load, it has nothing to do with how they are packaged.

Back when certain departments were having problems with the G22's, ATK determined that the standard GD round was a bit too hot and that it contributed to certain weapon malfunctions. The LE load was offered as a solution.

Complete B.S. There are two versions of the 165gr Gold Dot "LE".

http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/GoldDot.aspx

One loaded to reduced velocity, originally at that request of the feds. The other is a 'full power' version. They are both considered LE. By the way, the 155 and 180 versions are also considered LE....if they're in the 50 round boxes. The non-LE are the same round just packaged in 20 round boxes.

[Jeff82]

Complete B.S. There are two versions of the 165gr Gold Dot "LE".

http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/GoldDot.aspx

One loaded to reduced velocity, originally at that request of the feds. The other is a 'full power' version. They are both considered LE. By the way, the 155 and 180 versions are also considered LE....if they're in the 50 round boxes. The non-LE are the same round just packaged in 20 round boxes.

How do you tell the 165's apart? (besides shooting them through a chrono)

[DRT]

How do you tell the 165's apart? (besides shooting them through a chrono)


By the part number which is on the box: 53949 is the slow version, 53970 is the fast version. Look on the web site link (in my posting above) for the details of each version. By the way, the faster (normal) one is much more prevalent.

[Dean]

Outstanding thread!

Gentlemen, THIS is why we maintain our memberships in this forum.
I thank you for your information! :drillsgt:

[BrianNH]

Complete B.S. There are two versions of the 165gr Gold Dot "LE".

http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/GoldDot.aspx

One loaded to reduced velocity, originally at that request of the feds. The other is a 'full power' version. They are both considered LE. By the way, the 155 and 180 versions are also considered LE....if they're in the 50 round boxes. The non-LE are the same round just packaged in 20 round boxes.

What part of what I wrote is "complete BS"? How the rounds are packaged, or the FACT that I was told by a Glock LE rep that the reduced power LE load was offered as a solution to the complaints with regard to problems with .40 caliber Glocks? As I understand it, according to ATK, the LE load was initially introduced as a reduced power version only, and the full power LE load came later.

[DRT]

You said "The Gold Dot LE load is a reduced power load, it has nothing to do with how they are packaged." and I called B.S. on that statement because it's flat out wrong. LE does not equal reduced power, period.

I've been issued the 165gr gold dot (unfortunately) for years and it's always been the full powered version . The 155gr and 180gr versions dont even have a reduced velocity version and they're still called "LE" when packaged in the 50 round boxes. If you dont believe me, just look at ATK's website. My God man, what don't you understand?

[RUSH2112]

okay so regardless whether LE or just GD, or even what part number, if it's GD ammo you get the same bonded design and performance, just varied loads. :dunno:

[BrianNH]

You said "The Gold Dot LE load is a reduced power load, it has nothing to do with how they are packaged." and I called B.S. on that statement because it's flat out wrong. LE does not equal reduced power, period.

I've been issued the 165gr gold dot (unfortunately) for years and it's always been the full powered version . The 155gr and 180gr versions dont even have a reduced velocity version and they're still called "LE" when packaged in the 50 round boxes. If you dont believe me, just look at ATK's website. My God man, what don't you understand?

It seems as though now the "LE" designation does refer to both a reduced power load and a standard load. It hasn't always been this way. My initial point was the LE load initially designated a reduced power load only, everything else was a standard load. Apparently now Federal has changed their naming.

I consider myself to be somewhat knowledgeable on the subject since work closely with a large volume direct dealer with Federal.

[Jeff82]

okay so regardless whether LE or just GD, or even what part number, if it's GD ammo you get the same bonded design and performance, just varied loads. :dunno:

Because there's a velocity difference the performance will be different. Theoretically, rate of expansion will change (faster expansion in the faster round) which will lessen penetration. Also recoil and blast will be greater causing the time between followup shots to be longer. All IF using the same bullet.

[Tailhunter]

Whether in 20 or 50 round boxes, GD is inferior to Ranger T and HST.

Oh, now thats really funny .....

[BrianNH]

Oh, now thats really funny .....

What's even funnier is how Ranger ammo even became part of this discussion to begin with. Apparently someone has a bone to pick with Gold Dot ammo and saw this discussion as an opportunity to vent. :upeyes:

[Mwinter]

To the best of my knowledge, and/or according to my ATK le rep:

1. Gold Dot LE-marketed loads typically come in 50rd boxes, while the commerical Gold Dot loads are in 20rd boxes. There are some products in the LE catalogs that are in 20rd boxes, mainly secondary loads like .44sp. Some CCI Blazer loads are sold in 50rd boxes and use GDHP bullets; these are not marketed to law enforcement. The 200gr .44sp and 115gr 9mm JHP are examples.

2. The difference in the packaging shown is simply an update...older boxes have the gold colored packaging while newer/current production are in the black boxes. Federal had a packaging 'update' around the same time.

3. The standard 165gr Gold Dot .40SW appeared before the reduced velocity FBI 165gr load. The standard 165gr load has been offered in both 20rd commercial and 50rd LE boxes; to my knowledge the 165gr reduced load has only been offered in the 50rd LE packaging. It only became available to non-fed LE a couple of years ago.I wouldn't be surprised to see the reduced-velocity 165gr load appear in commercial guise in Speer's Short Barrel lineup.

4. GDHP rounds boxed for LE runs are held to a higher QC standard than the lots packaged for commercial sales (20rd boxes). This is per the ATK LE rep.

5. The LE product line contains loads that have never been marketed or sold commercially. The 9mm 115gr +p+ GHDP is one; in their recent catalog it is listed as special-order only. The 9mm SOC Dive round is another.

As for the Ranger/HST thing....the Federal Tactical Bonded and GDHP bullets do better in certain barrier tests than the non-bonded HST and RSXT bullets. I'll stick with them, as criminals drive cars too.

[DRT]

What's even funnier is how Ranger ammo even became part of this discussion to begin with. Apparently someone has a bone to pick with Gold Dot ammo and saw this discussion as an opportunity to vent. :upeyes:


What's funniest, or actually quite sad, is that a so-called firearms instructor/armorer can spread such utter B.S. and incorrect information and then get defensive when proven wrong.

[DRT]

As for the Ranger/HST thing....the Federal Tactical Bonded and GDHP bullets do better in certain barrier tests than the non-bonded HST and RSXT bullets. I'll stick with them, as criminals drive cars too.

The data in their report which I've linked to above speaks for itself. HST is the clear winner considering it's performance across the spectrum. Per ATK's testing, HST's performance through glass is on par with the bonded round and it's superior after clothing, wallboard, plywood,etc. Keep in mind that this testing was conducted by the same people, at the same time, with the same weapon, and under the same conditions. It's a clear side-by-side comparison.

If you want a bonded round, Tactical Bonded is superior to GD.

[mailman994]

I buy Gold Dot! I made, my friends still make it, and I will shoot it. I each his own and if you want to buy one brand because some paper said it was better then fine. When it comes down to it, the one that hits it target will probable be the better round.

[DRT]

I buy Gold Dot! I made, my friends still make it, and I will shoot it. I each his own and if you want to buy one brand because some paper said it was better then fine. When it comes down to it, the one that hits it target will probable be the better round.

Well hell, if YOU made it, then GD has got to be the best. Who cares if the company's own terminal ballistics testing shows otherwise.

My hat's off to you. I like a man with spirit who doesn't let facts/data stand in the way of making an informed decision. Here's some other news for you that you probably find hard to believe....Santa Claus doesnt exist and the earth isn't flat. Welcome to the 21st century.

[mailman994]

:rofl:

You so funny. You believe what ever you want. Shoot what you want, I'll just set back and watch. When was the last time you had to shoot a window out, or killer JELLO was on your door step. A shot to head with almost anything should kill a person.

:shocked:

[Jeff82]

A shot to head with almost anything should kill a person.

:shocked:

Actually, no. I believe the death rate from handgun headshots is approx 15%. (At least that's what it was several years ago when I came acrossed it.)

[RUSH2112]

Originally Posted by Mwinter
To the best of my knowledge, and/or according to my ATK le rep:

1. Gold Dot LE-marketed loads typically come in 50rd boxes, while the commerical Gold Dot loads are in 20rd boxes. There are some products in the LE catalogs that are in 20rd boxes, mainly secondary loads like .44sp. Some CCI Blazer loads are sold in 50rd boxes and use GDHP bullets; these are not marketed to law enforcement. The 200gr .44sp and 115gr 9mm JHP are examples.

2. The difference in the packaging shown is simply an update...older boxes have the gold colored packaging while newer/current production are in the black boxes. Federal had a packaging 'update' around the same time.

3. The standard 165gr Gold Dot .40SW appeared before the reduced velocity FBI 165gr load. The standard 165gr load has been offered in both 20rd commercial and 50rd LE boxes; to my knowledge the 165gr reduced load has only been offered in the 50rd LE packaging. It only became available to non-fed LE a couple of years ago.I wouldn't be surprised to see the reduced-velocity 165gr load appear in commercial guise in Speer's Short Barrel lineup.

4. GDHP rounds boxed for LE runs are held to a higher QC standard than the lots packaged for commercial sales (20rd boxes). This is per the ATK LE rep.

5. The LE product line contains loads that have never been marketed or sold commercially. The 9mm 115gr +p+ GHDP is one; in their recent catalog it is listed as special-order only. The 9mm SOC Dive round is another.


Much appreciated! :wavey:

[Mwinter]

In the both the live gel tests I attended/participated in (with ATK, '05 and '08), the Gold Dot had better penetration and retained weight than the HST in same weight/caliber. I do not value expansion as highly as penetration, retained weight, and POA/POI shift after barriers.

If you want more expansion at the cost of less penetration (and more likelihood of jacket separation and loss of retained weight), then HST is a good choice.

The Federal Bonded Tactical outdid both, which is why it's what I currently issue. The Bonded round (at least in the 165/40) is also a softer shooter than the Gold Dot...small but noticeable 'plus' for me.

[BrianNH]

What's funniest, or actually quite sad, is that a so-called firearms instructor/armorer can spread such utter B.S. and incorrect information and then get defensive when proven wrong.

So-called firearms instructor/armorer you say? There's no so-called about it, I am. Furthermore, it's just a sideline/hobby. Unlike you, I have a "real" job during the day. I'm not just some Donkey with a chip on his shoulder. :supergrin:

[Delta-x]

So-called firearms instructor/armorer you say? There's no so-called about it, I am. Furthermore, it's just a sideline/hobby. Unlike you, I have a "real" job during the day. I'm not just some Donkey with a chip on his shoulder. :supergrin:


:rofl:

I will remember this expert ballistic info next time I order.
No more inferior Gold Dots for me...:upeyes:

[smoke]

Can't you boys play nice????:supergrin:

[DRT]

So-called firearms instructor/armorer you say? There's no so-called about it, I am. Furthermore, it's just a sideline/hobby. Unlike you, I have a "real" job during the day. I'm not just some Donkey with a chip on his shoulder. :supergrin:

Well hopefully you know more about your 'real' job than you do about your hobby, otherwise you'll be unemployed very soon due to incompetence.

Do us all a favor.... refer anyone coming to you for firearms instruction to someone else who actually knows the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground.

[DRT]

Can't you boys play nice????:supergrin:

Yep. I'm done.

[BrianNH]

Well hopefully you know more about your 'real' job than you do about your hobby, otherwise you'll be unemployed very soon due to incompetence.

Do us all a favor.... refer anyone coming to you for firearms instruction to someone else who actually knows the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground.

You've pointed out that Speer does in fact have different flavors of their LE load based on what you read on a website. I initially said Speers LE load was a reduced power load based on information I received directly from them as a dealer, as this was the case at one time. The "LE" designation now obviously no longer designates just the reduced power load so you are correct. This is due to new labeling which Speer has put on all of their new ammo.

I don't believe this in any way implies that I am incompetent. Your tone in this thread is one of someone with a chip on his shoulder. Go work on your issues, and the world will become a better place. No one here is your enemy :supergrin: