Shot Placement Folks

[9 Micky Mouse]

This is a good example of poor shot placement. People come in different shapes sizes and have different levels of pain. Here is a guy hit to the chest with two .40s and after being cuffed gets up and walks to the ambulance. This is for the people who went to bigger calibers and do not train.
Read it first then go to video.

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/40-caliber-nightmare-is-caught-on-tape.html

[SDGlock23]

So if they had used a 9mm then that guy would have been DRT? Shot placement is number one AND bigger is also better. It's not hard to have both, you know.

[Ebb27]

Golly gee, Wally!

How come he didn't fall over dead like they do in the movies???


All you're doing is driving a chunk of metal into somebodies body. It's not a magic death ray that immediately drops them in their tracks.

Now where you drive that chunk of metal and what it chews up are indeed the critical factors. Even if you have good shot placement the bullet still might not hit anything vital, and the BG isn't even slowed. Frankly a lot of "stops" are purely psychological and the BG stops out of fear of dying from being shot, or because the pain of a bullet tearing through their body is unbearable. This is where larger calibers and hollow-point bullets are superior for eliciting a psychological response to the shot. Of course a truly determined attacker or one totally whacked out of their mind on drugs, isn't going to be stopped by some little chunk of metal cutting a hole in them.

This is one reason many law-enforcement agencies are using tasers, as these aren't nearly as dependent on the mindset of the BG and his psychological response as a gunshot is. The taser uses purely physical means, electricity to overload the body's nerve impulses, and will stop nearly anyone regardless of determination or intoxication, and they don't cause the permanent physical damage a bullet will.

[uz2bUSMC]

CC jambog.

[glock20c10mm]

Shot Placement AND Penetration are just as important as the other. Without one or the other or both there's too good of a chance a BG with a gun would still be returning fire at you for dang near as long as he pleases, or until he's out of ammo.

Beyond that, within the realm of bullet constuction, expansion, and cutting edges of a properly designed bullet are the next best tools for the job. Beyond that, a high enough peak ballistic pressure wave can incapacitate the BG before waiting for blood loss alone to end the threat. In other words, if BPW aided the situation, the BG will be incapacitated in less than 5 seconds, if you had to rely on blood/oxygen loss, the situation will most likely go on for 10seconds to darn near forever.

But, unless you shoot 9mm115gr+P+, 357SIG, 10mmAuto, or 460Rowland, probably don't expect too much from a peak ballistic pressure wave, as you need about 1300psi of ballistic pressure wave to be a factor around 90some% of the time, as theorized at this time.

It's generally easy to pick rounds based on; Penetration, Expansion, Cutting Edges(after expansion), and Peak Ballistic Pressure Wave. The most difficult and most up-in-the-air aspect of it all will always be shot placement. This is where you have to rely on yourself! The others, while never guaranteed, will happen the vast majority of the time.

[NuBee]

I also have read that we are supposed to shoot until the threat is stopped or gone. In other words if it takes 6 or 9 rounds to put this BG down then so be it. That is why we carry 2 13-round mags.

I also feel that it is a great assumption(no data here) that a .45 caliber would have dome much better. Maybe or maybe not but there is zero evidence in this specific incident that can PROVE one way or the other.

I watched a documentary where a hit man in Boston took out 3 WALKING adult men with a .22 semi-auto

Obviously the man shot with the .40 and still walking was not hit in a vital spot and the 3 victims shot with just a .22 were all hit in lethal areas.

So I think more practice is needed and not a caliber upgrade in many cases IMO.

[cole]

This is a good example of poor shot placement. People come in different shapes sizes and have different levels of pain. Here is a guy hit to the chest with two .40s and after being cuffed gets up and walks to the ambulance. This is for the people who went to bigger calibers and do not train.
Read it first then go to video.

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/40-caliber-nightmare-is-caught-on-tape.html

This is not an example of poor shot placement. And, I'm not sure what this post has to do at all with training relative to caliber. Also, let's not overlook this story is 14 years old! Seems regurgitation to me.

Two hits to the chest are good shots, likely a result of good training. This is not an example of "a hit with "smaller caliber" is better than a miss with "larger caliber". These were two good hits relative to how we all train to aim for COM. If anything, it makes the case for .45acp as a 14 year old 9mm would have certainly not faired any better.

A COM hit does NOT mean something vital was hit. Two to the chest is good placement, and likely the result of good training in this case, and such hits are an idealistic goal. But, there are no guarantees.

The best shots hit something vital resulting in rapid incapacitation. The fact the guy walks to the ambulance means incapaciation was not rapid and this is directly relative to what tissue the bullets actually destroyed.

9mm would have not changed the outcome, .45acp MAY have IF it achieved greater penetration and/or expansion. Beyond that, this discussion is all a GT rerun.

In closing, again, this one story, and it's 14 years old.

[RedsoxFan4Lyfe]

Its somewhat disturbing to say the least. I have an oddball question. What if he were hit with a .357 or .44 magnum, those seem to have so much power compared to other service load. Is it a fact that if nothing vital is hit you can get shot with ANY load and not drop? Thats what Im getting from this. Its bothersome and a bit scary.

[RedsoxFan4Lyfe]

I just watched that video again. I saw no exit wounds? Is it me or are there no exit wounds? A .40 didnt punch through the guy? He didnt seem like a big guy. Looked like a medium build type of guy to me. Thats just nuts.

[PAGunner]

I just watched that video again. I saw no exit wounds? Is it me or are there no exit wounds? A .40 didnt punch through the guy? He didnt seem like a big guy. Looked like a medium build type of guy to me. Thats just nuts.

Thats the part that scared me the most. To miss a vital in the thorax is really amazing, obviously heart and lungs were spared, which leaves the great vessels. Whatever rounds they were using must not have reached those vessels. I can't imagine a guy walking to the ambulance after a high pressure arterial bleed from one of the large vessels in the thorax.

I think what bullets were shot could be just as important as anything. Kinda makes me want to change to ball ammo, as I think this was an issue of penetration. I'd bet they were shooting 155gr. .40s, but thats just speculation on my part.

[PAGunner]

Its somewhat disturbing to say the least. I have an oddball question. What if he were hit with a .357 or .44 magnum, those seem to have so much power compared to other service load. Is it a fact that if nothing vital is hit you can get shot with ANY load and not drop? Thats what Im getting from this. Its bothersome and a bit scary.

I'm guessing a .357 or .44 mag would have made a difference, since it appears lack of penetration was the issue, with the heavier bullets. As much as I mess with the .40 crowd, never in a million years would I think I'd be watching a video of a guy who was shot twice in the thorax go hide, not bleed out and casually walk to an ambulance. I'm starting to think HPs are not needed.

[reaper8154]

A guy in my department recently shot a bad guy with his G22 (no it didn't KB!). The round went through the truck door and hit the guy in the lat. The bullet stopped after breaking on of the guy's vertebrae. The guy still wanted to fight and was actually able to take one last drink from his beer before going into custody. We use the HST which is supposed to be a good round through barriers, but nothing is perfect I guess...:dunno:

[Glock17JHP]

Sometimes 2 holes visible means an entrance and exit near eachother... not 2 entrance holes...
In such a case, vitals are missed altogether...

[Arc Angel]

Thats the part that scared me the most. To miss a vital in the thorax is really amazing, obviously heart and lungs were spared, which leaves the great vessels. Whatever rounds they were using must not have reached those vessels. I can't imagine a guy walking to the ambulance after a high pressure arterial bleed from one of the large vessels in the thorax.

I think what bullets were shot could be just as important as anything. Kinda makes me want to change to ball ammo, as I think this was an issue of penetration. I'd bet they were shooting 155gr. .40s, but thats just speculation on my part.

I'm guessing a .357 or .44 mag would have made a difference, since it appears lack of penetration was the issue, with the heavier bullets. As much as I mess with the .40 crowd, never in a million years would I think I'd be watching a video of a guy who was shot twice in the thorax go hide, not bleed out and casually walk to an ambulance. I'm starting to think HPs are not needed.

:upeyes: You always have sooo ..... much to say on this subject.











(And, even sooo .... much more to learn!) ;)

[mitchshrader]

i'm not sure what learning has to do with the physical capacity of your next hypothetical opponent to function following being shot..

I'd go with penetration first and expansion second, in my list of important factors... but at some point the concept CNS should* arise..

i mean, if they FLINCH when you shoot em COM.. and don't FALL DOWN.. then I think you can justify an attempt to be more precise..

I dunno WHY COM training is made the be-all and end-all .. it isn't entirely reliable, as this demonstrates, and having more options isn't my idea of stupid.

I suspect the simple fact is, CNS training is more work, and more expense.

Of course, it might save your life...

The arguements for carrying and the arguements for CNS focused training have points of similarity. It's worth examining them.

[RMTactical]

It was likely a lack of penetration.

Better bullet selection would have likely made a difference, even moreso than an "upgrade" to .45 caliber.

[PAGunner]

Sometimes 2 holes visible means an entrance and exit near eachother... not 2 entrance holes...
In such a case, vitals are missed altogether...

Thats even scarier if a bullet couldn't penetrate the guys sternum.

[PAGunner]

:upeyes: You always have sooo ..... much to say on this subject.











(And, even sooo .... much more to learn!) ;)

Why don't you enlighten us all Arc Angel, perhaps you have some more information regarding this event you would like to share?

[Gunnut 45/454]

Yea the guy was hit in the chest-from what I saw in the video it look like high right shoulder area. Other then lung damage -no major organs hit! Now move those two shot to the center-upper chest and I'd just about gaurentee he would have been DRT! They also don't follow up to tell us exactly what the bullets did if anything! Did it actually hit the lung-did they exist? A four day stay in the Hopsital tells me nothing major was hit! As the OP title suggests- Center upper chest is the target! Place the bullets there and what ever caliber your shooting will most likely get the job done! Then theres my opinion is to alway get one in the head! :)

[MOHAA Player]

This is why I always carry these in case I need to finish a man off with Blunt Force trauma:rofl:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/base_media.jpg

[PAGunner]

Yea the guy was hit in the chest-from what I saw in the video it look like high right shoulder area. Other then lung damage -no major organs hit! Now move those two shot to the center-upper chest and I'd just about gaurentee he would have been DRT! They also don't follow up to tell us exactly what the bullets did if anything! Did it actually hit the lung-did they exist? A four day stay in the Hopsital tells me nothing major was hit! As the OP title suggests- Center upper chest is the target! Place the bullets there and what ever caliber your shooting will most likely get the job done! Then theres my opinion is to alway get one in the head! :)

This man's lung was not hit, he wouldn't have been able to strut to the ambulance if it was. Also, that looked like thorax to me, not shoulder, but if it was shoulder, the guy is looking at having his subclavian artery hit, which in all likelihood, would have caused him to bleed out.

From what I can tell, no major vessels were hit, which is truly amazing. There aint much wiggle room in the thorax for a bullet to go all the way through and not hit a vital, which tells me there was a lack of penetration.

[Arc Angel]

Why don't you enlighten us all Arc Angel, perhaps you have some more information regarding this event you would like to share?

:) I've got a better idea! So, don't play dumb; you know what I'm talking about. Why don't you stop and actually read what I wrote the first time.

(I'm thinking of your own good. Could be a real eye opener for ya!) ;)




Wait! We have a winner -

.... I'd go with penetration first and expansion second, in my list of important factors ....

(Got 'a love the old guys!) :supergrin:

[Glock17JHP]

Thats even scarier if a bullet couldn't penetrate the guys sternum.

If the angle was shallow enough, and the bullet had a basically 'round' profile... it is possible...

[BigFameOne]

So if they had used a 9mm then that guy would have been DRT? Shot placement is number one AND bigger is also better. It's not hard to have both, you know.


I hear you but I think the point is clear and accurate, 2 9mm rounds in the right place are better than 2 ___ that are not put thre. That said seems like to shots to the center of the chest are pretty well placed.

[Senderofan]

I watched the video...I have a really hard time believing these were well placed chest shots. I see something near the sternum and something just left of the sternum on the left pec. For most of us...this is where the left ventricle is...which would be game over...cardiac tamponade happens really quickly in a situation like that. Also, if it was "Simply a lung shot"....besides a major potential to bleed out because of damage to pulmonary arteries and veins...the guy would have been in serious trouble from a sucking chest wound. Working on half of his lung capacity...trying to get away from the cops...he sure didn't look winded. I don't think he would be walking about so easily.

If the shots were slightly lower than the chest cavity or rib cage....there's all the other vessel rich group organs...liver and spleen. Also an area that causes one to bleed out at a fairly quick rate.

[NuBee]

I do not think that this one video alone can decide the bigger is better claim. It would be very easy to produce newspaper stories or videos of BG deaths with calibers smaller than .45acp. Thugs have been killing each other for years with the 9mm for example.

I can remember back during the 60s and 70s the so-called "Saturday Night Special" or "Zip-Guns" were only .22, .25, .32 or .38 calibers and hoods were dying like flies. So obviously shot placement was the dominant factor in 1000s of BG deaths.

It seems to me 2 or 3 inches in the wrong or right direction can produce a very different outcome.

[PAGunner]

:) I've got a better idea! So, don't play dumb; you know what I'm talking about. Why don't you stop and actually read what I wrote the first time.

(I'm thinking of your own good. Could be a real eye opener for ya!) ;)




Wait! We have a winner -



(Got 'a love the old guys!) :supergrin:

I did, and besides an attempt at being condescending, I'm not really sure what you mean.

[Arc Angel]

:shocked: Drats, looks like I flunked, 'Basic Condescension #101' again!

(I should have never stopped carrying that Louisville Slugger.) ;)

[Grape Ape]

LOL 9 Mickey Mouse, what reponse did you expect out of this board?

A board in search of a mgic bullet so no training is required at all to hit your adversary multiple times while moving in adverse ways.

I mean equipment is first in the order of progression, isn't it?

[Arc Angel]

:upeyes: There’s little or no argument that centerfire rifle bullets always hit harder, do more damage, and stop more effectively than centerfire pistol bullets. (At least those pistol bullets that are readily controllable.)

There’s little or no argument that smaller centerfire pistol bullets kill. (Isn’t it the 25 acp that takes the credit for killing more civilians than any other pistol bullet.)

I previously posted an incident from Hazleton, PA, where an actor was struck 14 or 15 times by 40 caliber JHP pistol bullets – None of which put him down and he continued in the gunfight. He stopped shooting, however, after being hit only twice (once in the torso) by 5.56mm rifle fire.

Personally, (And, yes, I’ve said this before. ;) ) shot placement isn’t enough. Neither is the size of the caliber. JHP centerfire pistol ammunition is frequently an inadequate stopper – And, 'stopping' is what we’re really talking about. It’s been demonstrated over and over again in places like: Hazleton, PA; Homestead, FL; and Laurel Canyon, CA that smaller caliber centerfire pistol bullets simply require too much of, both, the shooter and circumstance in order to guarantee a quick stop to the gunfight. (Oh, wait! I’ve said this before, too – Haven’t I.)

Between: bullet crush, wound cavity, (temporary or permanent, I don’t care!) and BPW trauma bigger, heavier, and faster bullets are always an advantage. If you must sacrifice something in a centerfire pistol bullet, then, speed should be the first thing to go. If you must fight with a handgun, you’ll enjoy a greater advantage if you emphasize a heavier bullet weight, and concomitantly higher point crush factor.

'Why', you might ask? Because high velocity/high energy centerfire pistol rounds tend to be smaller and lighter, AND are invariably fired from handguns that are more difficult to control and shoot accurately – especially at speed!

In this regard you’ll, also, always be better off if you place political considerations aside, and use the exact same bullet configuration as every major army in the world. In a combat handgun: Small bullet diameters, lighter bullet weights, blinding speed, and, ‘flower pedal’ bullet expansion are only going to take you so far; and, as for shot placement …... (Ready?) sometimes you achieve it; and, other times, you don’t.

As far as I’m concerned anyone who enters into a handgun fight with a heavy reliance upon superior, ‘shot placement’ is a fool. Stated within the same intellectual context, the proposition, ‘handguns and superior shot placement’ is an oxymoron. The common denominator is that, in the middle of a handgun fight, most gunmen are lucky to get any, 'superior shot placement' at all.

Traveling at any speed, the use of smaller and lighter caliber handgun bullets is not something I would prefer to bet my own life on! What is more, this remark is especially true of all JHP pistol ammunition. It ain't about shooting the other guy, dead. Instead it's really all about stopping the other guy, dead, in his tracks!

If you want to be holding onto an ideal combat handgun when that critical moment arrives, it remains vitally important to be able to recognize, both, the subtleties and associated differences between these two propositions: 'Shoot dead' or, 'Stop dead'.

So, you see, bigger AND more controllable really is better! :supergrin:

[BigFameOne]

:upeyes: There’s little or no argument that centerfire rifle bullets always hit harder, do more damage, and stop more effectively than centerfire pistol bullets. (At least those pistol bullets that are readily controllable.)

There’s little or no argument that smaller centerfire pistol bullets kill. (Isn’t it the 25 acp that takes the credit for killing more civilians than any other pistol bullet.)

I previously posted an incident from Hazleton, PA, where an actor was struck 14 or 15 times by 40 caliber JHP pistol bullets – None of which put him down and he continued in the gunfight. He stopped shooting, however, after being hit only twice (once in the torso) by 5.56mm rifle fire.

Personally, (And, yes, I’ve said this before. ;) ) shot placement isn’t enough. Neither is the size of the caliber. JHP centerfire pistol ammunition is frequently an inadequate stopper – And, 'stopping' is what we’re really talking about. It’s been demonstrated over and over again in places like: Hazleton, PA; Homestead, FL; and Laurel Canyon, CA that smaller caliber centerfire pistol bullets simply require too much of, both, the shooter and circumstance in order to guarantee a quick stop to the gunfight. (Oh, wait! I’ve said this before, too – Haven’t I.)

Between: bullet crush, wound cavity, (temporary or permanent, I don’t care!) and BPW trauma bigger, heavier, and faster bullets are always an advantage. If you must sacrifice something in a centerfire pistol bullet, then, speed should be the first thing to go. If you must fight with a handgun, you’ll enjoy a greater advantage if you emphasize a heavier bullet weight, and concomitantly higher point crush factor.

'Why', you might ask? Because high velocity/high energy centerfire pistol rounds tend to be smaller and lighter, AND are invariably fired from handguns that are more difficult to control and shoot accurately – especially at speed!

In this regard you’ll, also, always be better off if you place political considerations aside, and use the exact same bullet configuration as every major army in the world. In a combat handgun: Small bullet diameters, lighter bullet weights, blinding speed, and, ‘flower pedal’ bullet expansion are only going to take you so far; and, as for shot placement …... (Ready?) sometimes you achieve it; and, other times, you don’t.

As far as I’m concerned anyone who enters into a handgun fight with a heavy reliance upon superior, ‘shot placement’ is a fool. Stated within the same intellectual context, the proposition, ‘handguns and superior shot placement’ is an oxymoron. The common denominator is that, in the middle of a handgun fight, most gunmen are lucky to get any, 'superior shot placement' at all.

Traveling at any speed, the use of smaller and lighter caliber handgun bullets is not something I would prefer to bet my own life on! What is more, this remark is especially true of all JHP pistol ammunition. It ain't about shooting the other guy, dead. Instead it's really all about stopping the other guy, dead, in his tracks!

If you want to be holding onto an ideal combat handgun when that critical moment arrives, it remains vitally important to be able to recognize, both, the subtleties and associated differences between these two propositions: 'Shoot dead' or, 'Stop dead'.

So, you see, bigger AND more controllable really is better! :supergrin:

Well put, but I had always heard the killer round was .38, not .25cp. In any case good points, well thought out, I am not throwing out my Glock 19 just yet but I hae been considering something in .45 for a long while.

[Arc Angel]

:) I, too, wouldn't throw out a G-19! (Wish I had one.) ;)