Why is a .22lr pistol bad for defense?

[emt1581]

To start off with, I'm not a big fan of the .22lr for self-denfense...offense it's a terrific cartridge! (small game hunting, varmint, etc.)

However, when you look at the fact in terms of number of rounds, proximity, penetration, etc as far as SD shoots go...I'd like to know some facts as to why a .22lr snubbie/semi-auto is just a bad idea for self-defense?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[93GT]

Better than nothing, but it seems like if you were going to go with something that size, it might as well 1.5-2 times the diameter and a centerfire cartridge. There are people on this board that don't feel compelled to carry a pistol at all and a 22 pistol would be tons better than what they do not have with them. If a person could only afford to shoot and purchase a smaller 22LR pistol, then that is all they can afford, but most of us can swing 4-500 bucks for a pistol and another 50 for a couple hundred rounds of ammo. I have seen deer killed with 22LR, but it goes alot smoother with a large caliber handgun.

[emt1581]

Better than nothing, but it seems like if you were going to go with something that size, it might as well 1.5-2 times the diameter and a centerfire cartridge. There are people on this board that don't feel compelled to carry a pistol at all and a 22 pistol would be tons better than what they do not have with them. If a person could only afford to shoot and purchase a smaller 22LR pistol, then that is all they can afford, but most of us can swing 4-500 bucks for a pistol and another 50 for a couple hundred rounds of ammo. I have seen deer killed with 22LR, but it goes alot smoother with a large caliber handgun.

You got into diameter of the bullet...good!...Talk more about that.

What do you feel the .22lr does not offer (other than slightly larger width in the diameter of the projectile)?

Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But since the .22lr is REALLLYYY looked down upon for self-defense, I'm just looking to get all the FACTS why.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[bagballa]

To start off with, I'm not a big fan of the .22lr for self-denfense...offense it's a terrific cartridge! (small game hunting, varmint, etc.)

However, when you look at the fact in terms of number of rounds, proximity, penetration, etc as far as SD shoots go...I'd like to know some facts as to why a .22lr snubbie/semi-auto is just a bad idea for self-defense?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

Too light of a bullet. It's not intended for SD or killing humans. With the proper shot placement you could kill anything roaming the U.S. with that 22lr. Do you have a medical condition that would prevent you from a larger cal?

It is better than nothing at all though, my advice would be: Get a .45 or at the least 9mm or 38+p.

[JimBianchi]

.22LR is not an SD round. It is an excellent small game round. (under 20 pounds I'd say)

Bullet is only 40 or less grains and is to small, to fast to effectively stop a threat.

That's not to say with proper shot placement it can't be very an effective manstopper.

But when your heart is pumping and the BG is coming like frieghtrain at you, you just want to put your rounds center of mass, no time to aim for his head.

FBI testing has revealed you want about 14 inches of penatration to do lethal damage to organs.

And in my opinion, bigger holes are always better.

But if it is all you got, empty the mag, reload and hit him again.

[ctaggart]

It's a slow light bullet. There's the downside.

If you're using a light bullet, you'll want high speed to produce a hydrostatic shock through the material you're shooting.

If you're using a slow heavy bullet, it'll have great penetration with typically a large expanded diameter.

That's a dummy explanation.

[Jeff82]

Rimfire ammo is not as consistent as centerfire. Why? Priming is not "positive". It is dropped in and the case spun to get the compound into the rim. There is no guarantee that it is all around the rim. So you will have some rounds that won't ignite until you turn them a bit. Some won't even then. As the rounds are not for self defense there is no concern with sealing the bullet into the case to protect the powder from contamination. Most are loose. The manufacturers know this and keep cost down by giving QC quite a bit of latitude in allowing variations/defects. MOF, there are so many produced that most are not checked. SD ammo and LE ammo especially are held to much higher standards as far as reliability and consistency. Bullets are not designed to expand in a human target at the optimal depth for self defense "effect".

They are too small with little speed. Although they can be deadly (you can die after being shot by one) they are not "stoppers". Unless you get a CNS hit or the bg bleeds out (IF he bleeds out) he will remain a threat.

If I had to use one for defense I'd adopt the same "mag dump" technique as I use for my .32 ACP. If you have to shoot, plan on pouring the entire mag into their chest/head and reassessing while changing mags. If you're up against more than one split the mag as needed. Reload, repeat.

[Colonel Klink]

The only reason to shoot someone is to stop them from doing what they are doing. Do not EVER tell anyone you want to or will kill someone because that could get you long jail time. A .22 caliber does not have the power to stop someone from doing what they are doing. Criminals, on drugs, have continued an attach after many 9mm hits. The bigger the bullet and the faster the bullet the better chance you have to stop someone.

If possible do not empty the magazine into the criminal. In court you will be accused of wanting to kill the criminal. If you haven't empted the magazine you can say, "If I wanted to kill him I would have empted the magazine".

If you shoot to stop and the criminal dies, well, too bad.

I have a twelve gauge shotgun in my bedroom (18" barrell) with a snap cap in the chamber in case someone else gets to it first. I will go outside the bedroom door, on the second floor landing, holler "Get out of my house!!!" and rack the slide of the shotgun. By now the wife has the police on the phone and I'm back in the bedroom with the door closed. The police record all 911 calls so if the BG comes through the bedroom door the police will have recorded my next hollering and the shotgun blast.

Screaming "Drop that gun" is also a good idea. No telling who outside your home will hear it and tell the police you said it. Weither he had a gun or not.

[mitchshrader]

it doesn't stop them fast enough to keep them from sticking a machete through you.

that's my criteria for a SD gun. Big guy with big machete and I get 3 seconds lead time.. I do NOT WANT A .22.. do it your way..

[sigcalcatrant]

Most people killed with a .22LR took a relatively long time to die.

[Jason607]

Go shoot things besides paper and you'll understand.

Yes. the .22lr can kill, but it has to hit just the right spot and even then chances are it's going to take a while.

It's like dumping all of your money into the lottery as a way to save for retirement. Yes, it may pay out bigtime, but chances are it won't.

[Fiery Red XIII]

I'll check w/my old man, I know he'll remember the story/place, as I heard it probably 17-20 years ago, but it hit him hard as an LEO: He talked about a shootout where minutes after a firefight, a detective collapsed. Everyone assumed MI (as an EMT you'll know that 1), but they found 1 drop of blood under his armpit. a .22 entered there and tumbled through his chest. Sad, but the exception IMHO. I say this: I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE SHOT BY A
.22!!! But most .22 wounds I've seen as an EMT in MN are very minor. Even 5 or 6 yrs ago on New Year's, we had a woman shot from 25 feet away in the head, bullet entered skin, but went around skull, no fracture. I know they've happened, but I cannot recall treating a pt. w/a .22 wound who died from shot directly (sepsis, once). Others will bring up Virginia Tech, where a .22 handgun was devastating. It's an option, but I prefer more bullet and velocity.

Red

[fredj338]

The guys were all around this but the reason the 22lr @ 1000fps or so is a poor choice is it makes a very small wound channel. The wound is small enough to plug by the surrounding tissue. Even 4 or 5 wounds that plug up, will bleed very slowly. A larger perm. wound channel allows more rapid blood loss & more rapid blood loss means the BG looses conciousness sooner, end of the fight. Whether the BG lives or dies is meaningless at the time of the attack. The point is to stop the attack in the shortest possible time. A 22lr is only going to do that w/ a CNS shot. Yes better than nothing but there are sooo many other better choices.

[JohnnyReb]

Emt, I swear you have to be drunk when you post.

[English]

It's a slow light bullet. There's the downside.

If you're using a light bullet, you'll want high speed to produce a hydrostatic shock through the material you're shooting.

If you're using a slow heavy bullet, it'll have great penetration with typically a large expanded diameter.

That's a dummy explanation.

You said hydrostatic shock! Are you trying to start a caliber war? Any enlightened person knows that bullet placement is key and that there is no such thing as hydrostatic shock. Just aim for the nearest eye and that will do it.

English

[mitchshrader]

uh, your own eye is the nearest, most likely. i'm not a bit sure you meant it that way, but it's disturbing..

[English]

uh, your own eye is the nearest, most likely. i'm not a bit sure you meant it that way, but it's disturbing..

I did mean the BG's eye but I thought it was important in a SD situation that you don't spend time wondering whether to shoot the left eye or the right eye. This presents a secondary problem if his head is square on. In that case shoot for the eye on the same sideas your gun hand. I hope this clears it up.

English

[93GT]

You got into diameter of the bullet...good!...Talk more about that.

What do you feel the .22lr does not offer (other than slightly larger width in the diameter of the projectile)?

Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But since the .22lr is REALLLYYY looked down upon for self-defense, I'm just looking to get all the FACTS why.

Thanks!

-Emt1581

FACTS, not sure I have any that are scientific or undisputable. Common sense would tell you, but that is not always the best way to bet your life. I suppose most of the guys who have posted so far have summed it up, but I would not feel comfortable carrying a .22LR after shooting animals with other carry calibers and shooting them with .22's. I can't tell you how many ground hogs I have shot with a .22 rifle in the body and had them drag themselves off of the hill side and back into a hole. A lot more, statistcally speaking, than the ones I have shot in the body with 9mm and .45 auto from a pistol, which is just not very confidence inspiring to me.

Groundhogs almost never die immediately unless hit directly in the heart or brain, and even when I hit them in the head the 22 still manages to miss the brain where the 45 just penetrates straight through and lights out. There are a million situations where a 22 could work, but there are probably double that where a considerably larger bullet traveling at equal or greater speeds would do the trick based on pure mass and bullet design. .22 caliber is just fine in a 2700+ fps cartridge, but there is evidence that bullet design and slightly lower velocity drastically reduce wounding ability in the .223/5.56. Since pistol bullets are slow in comparison (yes I have heard of the 357 sig, 9 x 25, etc...), straight penetration and consistant performance are their primary wounding mechanisms. Larger holes do make a difference, up to the point where too much velocity, sectional density, or controllability are sacraficed.

[Jeff82]

uh, your own eye is the nearest, most likely. i'm not a bit sure you meant it that way, but it's disturbing..

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
I almost had cereal and milk shoot out my nose!!!

[Gunnut 45/454]

I personally don't have a problem with someone who wants to use a 22lr for defense,are there better choices -Yes, will it stop a BG Yes, Would I use it if it was the only weapon I could afford or had access to you bet!! Anything that will put holes in BG's is a good thing! :)

[English]

In the pasdt I have tried to make an argument which has been misunderstood but I will try again.

If you wish to defend yourself and get out of a conflict alive and uninjured, you need something powerful - say 10mm, .45ACP or 357SIG with heavy loads and good bullet designs. You need this to stop your opponent shooting at you as soon as possible. He will, of course, be likely to die but that is less important than stopping him quickly with as few shots as possible.

If, for what ever reason, many of which are sound, you choose to shoot something less powerful, say down at the .22LR, .25ACP .32ACP, .380ACP end of things, you are less likely to get away with it but you will perform a public service either way. The BG you shoot with one of these calibers stands a good chance of dying as a result, and that is a social benefit, but he will have a bigger chance of killing or severely injuring you before this event comes about.

English

[BrianNH]

It's all about shot placement. I can put more .22 rounds into my target faster and more accurately than any other caliber.

It gets a little sickening hearing this logic doesn't it ? :supergrin:

[Rugby]

You said hydrostatic shock! Are you trying to start a caliber war? Any enlightened person knows that bullet placement is key and that there is no such thing as hydrostatic shock. Just aim for the nearest eye and that will do it.

English

Makes me wonder why your idol Dr. Courtney associated his theory in a hydrostatic shock article. Never could figure that one out. You're smart, why don't you explain it to me.

Dr. Courtney's re-write of hydrostatic shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock)

[Rugby]

In the pasdt I have tried to make an argument which has been misunderstood but I will try again.

If you wish to defend yourself and get out of a conflict alive and uninjured, you need something powerful - say 10mm, .45ACP or 357SIG with heavy loads and good bullet designs. You need this to stop your opponent shooting at you as soon as possible. He will, of course, be likely to die but that is less important than stopping him quickly with as few shots as possible.

If, for what ever reason, many of which are sound, you choose to shoot something less powerful, say down at the .22LR, .25ACP .32ACP, .380ACP end of things, you are less likely to get away with it but you will perform a public service either way. The BG you shoot with one of these calibers stands a good chance of dying as a result, and that is a social benefit, but he will have a bigger chance of killing or severely injuring you before this event comes about.

English

Where does the 9mm fall into your two groupings?

I've seen a man collapse immediately after being struck with 9mm ball and a man continue to fight after being struck with a .45. How do you explain that?

[Daryl in Az]

One reason for not using a rimfire for SD is that the priming isn't as good. They're much more prone to misfires than a centerfire cartridge is. For an example, I've NEVER in all my years of hunting had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire. My dad had two; one from a bad primer, and the other from too much gunk on the firing pin on his rifle.

I've had a lot of rimfire ammo fail to fire on the first attemps; many of which fired after putting them back into the chamber and pulling the trigger again. Good quality rimfire ammo can help with this, but it's still more possible than when using centerfire ammo.

My wife has a medical condition that hinders her ability to handle recoil of a handgun. For that reason, she carries a J-frame in .22 rimfire. Like some have said, it's better than nothing, by far. She shoots it very well, and it stays loaded with top quality ammo. If that's the best she can do, then I'm proud of her for carrying and shooting what she is able to handle.

I keep a J-frame .38 special loaded with +p ammo with me just about always. Sometimes it's supplemented with another handgun, depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going that day, but the j-frame is always there.

Daryl

[gary newport]

Any enlightened person knows that bullet placement is key and that there is no such thing as hydrostatic shock. English

Yes and there isn't. :cool:

There might be such a thing as hydroDYNAMIC shock. Whether or not it would have any significant role with handguns is a subject that keeps some folks pecking away endlessly at their keyboards. :whistling:

[gary newport]

One reason for not using a rimfire for SD is that the priming isn't as good. They're much more prone to misfires than a centerfire cartridge is. For an example, I've NEVER in all my years of hunting had a centerfire cartridge fail to fire. My dad had two; one from a bad primer, and the other from too much gunk on the firing pin on his rifle.

I've had a lot of rimfire ammo fail to fire on the first attemps; many of which fired after putting them back into the chamber and pulling the trigger again. Good quality rimfire ammo can help with this, but it's still more possible than when using centerfire ammo.

My wife has a medical condition that hinders her ability to handle recoil of a handgun. For that reason, she carries a J-frame in .22 rimfire. Like some have said, it's better than nothing, by far. She shoots it very well, and it stays loaded with top quality ammo. If that's the best she can do, then I'm proud of her for carrying and shooting what she is able to handle.

I keep a J-frame .38 special loaded with +p ammo with me just about always. Sometimes it's supplemented with another handgun, depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going that day, but the j-frame is always there.

Daryl

Good point on the terrible reliability of .22 rimfire ammunition. Another good related point: IF I were to use .22 for self-defense (and I certainly wouldn't want to), I'd do what your wife does--put it in a revolver! I am not normally a fan of revolvers, but the ability to pull the trigger again and cycle a fresh round into battery sounds much better than having to do a malfunction clearance with a semi-auto in that caliber.

[Jeff82]

Good point on the terrible reliability of .22 rimfire ammunition. Another good related point: IF I were to use .22 for self-defense (and I certainly wouldn't want to), I'd do what your wife does--put it in a revolver! I am not normally a fan of revolvers, but the ability to pull the trigger again and cycle a fresh round into battery sounds much better than having to do a malfunction clearance with a semi-auto in that caliber.

+1 . .

[glock20c10mm]

I'd like to know some facts as to why a .22lr snubbie/semi-auto is just a bad idea for self-defense?

-Emt1581
IMO it's only a round to choose when the gun pictured below is all that will work for carry purposes. Barrel length is 1.125". You get 5 shots at about 800fps if you use Remington Yellow Jackets. Most other 22LR rounds only get 600fps-700fps(30 22LR rounds were velocity tested). Photo is actual size.
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/lrNEW2.jpg


BUT, if you're going to a gun that small, you may as well just go with the 22Short version which saves .5 oz of weight and .125" in OAL, still with a 1.125" barrel and is pictured below. And, even with Winchester Super X shorts, you still get 700fps. Photo is actual size.
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/shortNEW.jpg

In either gun you can safely load it up with all five rounds, as the hammer rests in notches between the chambers. But like I said earlier, needing guns of this size is the only reason I'ld purposefully carry the round for SD.

PS - they are both solid stainless steel construction except for the wood grips, and either, at full MSRP, costs $193.00.

[93GT]

Where does the 9mm fall into your two groupings?

I've seen a man collapse immediately after being struck with 9mm ball and a man continue to fight after being struck with a .45. How do you explain that?

Uncontrollable circumstances. I have shot a deer in the heart with a 22, not pass through, and had it drop after two steps, yet I have shot one with a deer slug at closer range and had it clip the heart and go through both lungs, then watched it run 75 yards before dropping.

If the round is reliable, can penetrate to and passed vital organs, is accurate at the distance likely for use, then add as much diameter, mass, and velocity as you can effectively handle in you selected platform. 22's are not ineffective, just not optimal when considering something that must be fired out of a handgun style platform.

[gary newport]

Where does the 9mm fall into your two groupings?

I've seen a man collapse immediately after being struck with 9mm ball and a man continue to fight after being struck with a .45. How do you explain that?

It could have happened the other way around just as easily! As I posted once or twice a long time ago on CC, all calibers succeed and all calibers fail. The real question is which ones are more likely to succeed, all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are).

[glock20c10mm]

Uncontrollable circumstances. I have shot a deer in the heart with a 22, not pass through, and had it drop after two steps, yet I have shot one with a deer slug at closer range and had it clip the heart and go through both lungs, then watched it run 75 yards before dropping.

If the round is reliable, can penetrate to and passed vital organs, is accurate at the distance likely for use, then add as much diameter, mass, and velocity as you can effectively handle in you selected platform. 22's are not ineffective, just not optimal when considering something that must be fired out of a handgun style platform.
Yea, and along with that I'ld like to add that people are not uncommonly prone to passing out/fainting. Deer are not prone to the same.

[Rugby]

It could have happened the other way around just as easily! As I posted once or twice a long time ago on CC, all calibers succeed and all calibers fail. The real question is which ones are more likely to succeed, all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are).

That clears things up!:supergrin:

[Rugby]

Yea, and along with that I'ld like to add that people are not uncommonly prone to passing out/fainting. Deer are not prone to the same.

But there are fainting goats!:tongueout:

[English]

Makes me wonder why your idol Dr. Courtney associated his theory in a hydrostatic shock article. Never could figure that one out. You're smart, why don't you explain it to me.

Dr. Courtney's re-write of hydrostatic shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock)

Dr. Courtney is not my idol. He is a competent scientist and I am grateful that he has bothered to pass on much of his results in Glock Talk. Beyond that I know very little about him. He is much to be admired for the way in which he has remained civil and reasonable in his replies to uncivil and unreasonable attacks on him and his work.

I have just read the Wiki piece which you say is written by him. I saw no signature and so have no reason to believe that you are correct. The piece was worth reading as a summary of the work of different people in the field. Thank you for passing it on.

If we assume for a moment that he was the author of at least part of it, their is no difficulty in explaining his association. Within the firearms community the term "hydrostatic shock" has a long usage and so if someone wants to find out more about it, they will, unsurprisingly, look up "hydrostatic shock". That is at least step one.

As Shakespeare told us, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." The word is not the thing and "hydrostatic shock" is just another name for the "ballistic pressure wave" or BPW we all know and love. Dr.
Courtney actually mentions this somewhere and explains that he prefers BPW. As gary newport poins out, there is no shuch thing as hydrosdtatic shock though we might consider hydrodynamic shock as an alternative. Why? Because the thing moves. It is not a speed of sound transmission where the movement cause vibration at a molecullar level but where the molecules remain in place, but a mass, dynamic, movement of tissue which might be trown 3 or 4 inches to the side of the bullet track. There is nothing static about it. Apart from that, the word "shock" is associated with electrical shock, psychological shock, the shock of seeing a naked woman when you did not expect to, the shock of cold water thrown in the face and so on. It is a term which creates too many potentially confusing connotations. Finally, the term "BPW" had come into common usage among scientists working in related fields. It was not a term invented by Dr. Courtney. I hope that this explains the matter to your satisfaction and is not too pompous for your taste. If it is, perhaps you would rewrite it for me so that I can see where I am going wrong.

To answer your next question, the 9mm comes in between. In standard pressure ball loadings it is rather better than the 380ACP and the 9mm Makarov. In high pressure loadings with good bullet designs it can be well into the more than merely adequate self defence range. This is, of course, my personal rating and there is no reason why others should not differ. One of my interests is in the volume of tissue which is disrupted enough to incapacitate it for the time being. Half a second would be better than nothing but somewhere in the 20 secon region would be more useful. I suspect that BPW level will correspond to this quite well.

To return to the 9mm ball, I also suspect, for instance, that the best loadings in 380ACP fired from not too short a barrel, are better than standard pressure 9mm ball. I note your comments about witnessing the effects of 9mm ball and .45ACP but the statistics and calculation of BPW both show there to be little difference. Marshall and Sanows statistics show little difference and the Strasbourg Tests, peace be upon them, also showed little difference. At the time of M&S and Strasbourg, this was totally unexpected and should lead us to suspect that, regardless of methodological and arithmetical errors, neither were faked. Since all these effects are a matter of probability, any given event can be on one side of the probability or the other.

I am sure that you are not claiming that the 9mm ball is the magic bullet we have been supposed to have been looking for on the basis of this one incident. Sometimes you are lucky and other times you are not. All we can hope for is to change the percentages in the right direction. The 357SIG has about 9% more total recoil than the equivalent 9mm +P+ but subsdtantially more peak BPW. The Steyr MI 357A is more than 9% heavier than the G19. Is it worth carrying a slightly heavier pistol to tame the felt recoil to get a better performing bullet? It is an individual choice even for people who believe that the BPW hypothesis is sound.

I have just heard of a man shot eight time with 10mm silvertip bullets at Norma level loadings. This happened about 20 years ago. Three of those bullets hit his heart but it took eight shots to put him down. The bullets hardly expanded at all but any shot through the heart will be enough to stop it pumping. Is this normal? I doubt it. It was unlucky but it proved nothing in itelf beyond the fact that placement alone is not enough to stop an attack quickly.

English

[Glock17JHP]

IMO it's only a round to choose when the gun pictured below is all that will work for carry purposes. Barrel length is 1.125". You get 5 shots at about 800fps if you use Remington Yellow Jackets. Most other 22LR rounds only get 600fps-700fps(30 22LR rounds were velocity tested). Photo is actual size.
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/lrNEW2.jpg


BUT, if you're going to a gun that small, you may as well just go with the 22Short version which saves .5 oz of weight and .125" in OAL, still with a 1.125" barrel and is pictured below. And, even with Winchester Super X shorts, you still get 700fps. Photo is actual size.
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/shortNEW.jpg

In either gun you can safely load it up with all five rounds, as the hammer rests in notches between the chambers. But like I said earlier, needing guns of this size is the only reason I'ld purposefully carry the round for SD.

PS - they are both solid stainless steel construction except for the wood grips, and either, at full MSRP, costs $193.00.

Those are both 'single-action' pistols...
Both are designed for 'up-close-and-personal'...
How many shots do you think you will get off before the other guy is 'all over you like ugly on an ape'??? :crazy:

[Rugby]

I have just read the Wiki piece which you say is written by him. I saw no signature and so have no reason to believe that you are correct. English

"Dr. Amy Courtney assisted me in re-writing the Hydrostatic Shock article on Wikipedia. We believe it is now much improved, with a more complete discussion and more complete reference list."

Actual thread started by Courtney (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=845196)

[James Markov]

If I had a .22 for defense maybe trying the super hot Aguila 40 grain load at 1,470 would be in order...
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=110805

[glock20c10mm]

Those are both 'single-action' pistols...
Both are designed for 'up-close-and-personal'...
How many shots do you think you will get off before the other guy is 'all over you like ugly on an ape'??? :crazy:
:shame: Maybe that's why I said; "...only a round to choose when the gun pictured below is all that will work for carry purposes.":impatient:

[Glock17JHP]

:shame: Maybe that's why I said; "...only a round to choose when the gun pictured below is all that will work for carry purposes.":impatient:

I would rather carry a 'Cold Steel' City Stick than one of those puny .22's...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/ColdSteelSteelHeadCityStick.jpg

11 layers of fiberglass, and a solid stainless steel head...
The shaft will support 700+ lbs when spanning between 2 cinderblocks...
The head will shatter a cinderblock...
37 inches long, only about 25 ounces...
Legal to carry, even on an airliner!!!

[glock20c10mm]

I would rather carry a 'Cold Steel' City Stick than one of those puny .22's...

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/ColdSteelSteelHeadCityStick.jpg

11 layers of fiberglass, and a solid stainless steel head...
The shaft will support 700+ lbs when spanning between 2 cinderblocks...
The head will shatter a cinderblock...
37 inches long, only about 25 ounces...
Legal to carry, even on an airliner!!!
Where are you going to conceal that? Nevermind, don't tell me, I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!:shocked:

[James Markov]

The .22 is certainly not as powerful as virtually any other handgun out there, but look at this and see that it is more than it appears...warning to all this is ugly footage.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UoZeZprXnDg

[Glock17JHP]

Where are you going to conceal that? Nevermind, don't tell me, I DON'T WANT TO KNOW!!!:shocked:

OUCH!!! :moonie: OK, you win that round, Craig... :duel:

[RMTactical]

Tends to be less reliable and is on the low end of effectiveness.

It's better than nothing. But I can think of so many more guns that are so much more effective.

[SDGlock23]

It could have happened the other way around just as easily! As I posted once or twice a long time ago on CC, all calibers succeed and all calibers fail. The real question is which ones are more likely to succeed, all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are).

Excellent post Gary, very well said!

[James Markov]

Its a tad off subject, but has anybody here seen the movie "ASSASSINS" where Stallone and Bandares shoot it out with .22's?

[emt1581]

Its a tad off subject, but has anybody here seen the movie "ASSASSINS" where Stallone and Bandares shoot it out with .22's?

Did ya check out my avatar?...Remember the line..."Ruger .22"...?

LOVE that movie! ;)

-Emt1581

[J.P.]

Dr. Courtney is not my idol. He is a competent scientist and I am grateful that he has bothered to pass on much of his results in Glock Talk.

No need to explain, we know he's not really your "idol".
That's just another patented personal stab by Rugby.

Dr. Courtney's work is definitely worth considering,IMO.
The real problem is that people try to read too much into everything and desire to create an either/or situation where it need not exist.

[Rugby]

No need to explain, we know he's not really your "idol".
That's just another patented personal stab by Rugby.

Dr. Courtney's work is definitely worth considering,IMO.
The real problem is that people try to read too much into everything and desire to create an either/or situation where it need not exist.

Ah, GT's anonymous "expert" makes an appearance to post a whole bunch of nothing again.

Oh, and I suppose I was wrong about Courtney re-writing the hydrostatic shock article too. Unlike you, I can actually back-up my statements.

[Glock17JHP]

No need to explain, we know he's not really your "idol".
That's just another patented personal stab by Rugby.

Dr. Courtney's work is definitely worth considering,IMO.
The real problem is that people try to read too much into everything and desire to create an either/or situation where it need not exist.

Very good... are you a politician? :yawn:

[MOHAA Player]

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/normal_mypostbeatup.gif

[J.P.]

Ah, GT's anonymous "expert" makes an appearance to post a whole bunch of nothing again.

Oh, and I suppose I was wrong about Courtney re-writing the hydrostatic shock article too. Unlike you, I can actually back-up my statements.

okay.