20" VS 26" barrel .308

[Eric2340]

Need some advice guys, I actually had asked this in another thread that started off about long action vs short action.

I'm looking at two different "tactical" style rifles in .308, both come the same action and almost bascially the same stock, both barrels are "tactical" heavy, bull style barrels. Only difference between the two of them is one is available in a 20", the other is a 26", rate of twist is 1" in 12" on both.

I can see the advantages to going with the shorter 20" one. I have been told that if I want any advantage with going with the longer barrel that I am better off going with a more powerfull cartridge to gain accuracy or power further down range than the 20" will give me. My thing is if that is the case or the beter advantage, then why does everyone and their brother offer these .308s with the long barrels like this, and is there any other advantage to going with the longer barrel in .308 that I am missing?

I'm kind of on the fence right now between the two and just want to make sure I have all the facts before I decide. I have not been able to get a real clear answer on this yet other than, "buy what you like". I figure there has GOT to be some other advantage to having that longer barrel in a .308 rifle.

BTW, the two rifles I have narrowed it down to are the Remington 700 SPS tactical and the 700 SPS Varmint.


Thanks -

Eric

[DonD]

You'll get greater velocity with the 26" barrel, probably on the order of 150 fps. The .308 is the standard LEO sniper rifle and does it's job well. There are, however, better long range calibers and guns with better ballistics such as the 6.5mms that kick less.

I think what some are saying is that if you want a real step up in long range performance the longer barrel won't do it, you'll need to go with a more powerful caliber such as say a .300RUM but you'll pay for it with considerably more recoil. I'd suspect that the .300RUM shooting 240gr Sierra MKs with a BC of over .700 would be an awesome long range tool. Don

[Eric2340]

That makes sense, and so far I am sold on .308 and I want to stay with that for a number of other reasons. My big thing here is which barrel length to go with (why I asked).

Ok, so given what you said and why it makes sense, then there is NO real advangate to the 26" barrel? I am better off then with the other advantages I GAIN with the 20" barrel and really am not giving that much up.

As far as accuracy, what should I expect out of the .308 distance wise, and how much is the shorter barrel going to effect that?


Thanks -

[Eric2340]

BTW, I don't really plan on doing any real "long range" shooting with this, but my big thing is also do not want to limit my options either by going with the shorter barrel either. The thing that makes me question it though is I keep seeing all these "sniper rifles" in .308 that have 24" to 26" barrels - why is the 20" not the standard then given the answers we have come up with here?

Thanks -

[Rusty Phillips]

a minor consideration, but a longer barrel will be quieter

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10699327#post10699327

CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA

.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 " barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB
.375 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

6dB is a doubling of actual sound pressure, 10 dB is what the human ear perceives as a doubling

[Eric2340]

true, I should have remembered that from when I had my AR carbine with and AK brake on it, it was LOUD as hell compared to a 20" AR with no brake or a flash suppressor only.

Real miserable to be next too........:( I can only imagine a short barreled .308 then. :(

[Eric2340]

Actually, going back now and reading that other post and reviewing the data again, there looks to be not the much of a dB differnce in the .30-06 between the 18" and 24" barrels -

.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB


Granted the shorter barrel IS louder, but it's not by that much either - 4.7 dB. The data is somewhat relative since we are considering .308 barrel lengths of 6" difference also.

Think the shorter .308 20" barrel will be THAT much louder to make a significant difference?

I still want to know how much it's going to effect long range accuracy also -

[93GT]

Great I am planning on getting an 18 inch, I won't be able to hear.

[HAVOC]

You don't want a 1:12 twist in a target rifle. 150 grain (or there abouts) bullets will work. 165/168 may or may not, depends on the rifle. The 175s and 180s are pretty much going to be hopeless.

[Eric2340]

Not for target shooting, more playing around than anything else, probablly well under 300 yards, again I don't want to limit my self, but it's looking more and more like if I really want to "get out there" it's going to take more than a .308 (?).

I think for what I want to do for now it'll be plenty though.

So again, no real gain in going with the 26" over the 20" huh?

[LoneRanger19]

a minor consideration, but a longer barrel will be quieter

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10699327#post10699327



6dB is a doubling of actual sound pressure, 10 dB is what the human ear perceives as a doubling

+1 I had a chance to play with a friend's Springfield Scout Squad M1A with an 18" barrel and it was noticeable louder than a standard M1A.

For that matter, troops in Iraq and Afganistan are using the old M14 as sniper rifles and it only has a 22" barrel.

[roymail]

22" barrel and don't forget your ear muffs!

[G26man]

The shorter barrel can actually be more accurate because of less vibration. You will lose some velocity so if you want to shoot long range with less holdover or with maximum terminal effectiveness you would want the longer barrel.

I assume there will be considerable muzzle blast from a 20" .308. There was from my 18".

[454ThunderGod]

Not for target shooting, more playing around than anything else, probablly well under 300 yards, again I don't want to limit my self, but it's looking more and more like if I really want to "get out there" it's going to take more than a .308 (?).

I think for what I want to do for now it'll be plenty though.

So again, no real gain in going with the 26" over the 20" huh?

I apologize for digressing, but I just cant seem to get past this statement...

Not for target shooting, more playing around than anything else

Ive never heard this kind of statement before when contemplating the purchase of a quality .308 (assuming its a bolt rifle).

Never heard anyone looking for a good bolt rifle for the purpose of "not target shooting, but playing around"

Perhaps I misread something.

[Eric2340]

Ok, how about this, I don't hunt, I am not using this for "prefessional use" (I am non-military, non-LEO) and I don't shoot in competition.

I enjoy like many of us just to go and put holes in paper for a good time, and I do not have any kind of long range rilfle of this type in my collection currently. Not to mention the fact I like this type of gun and want one.

Look truth is this is going to be nothing more than an "expensive big boy toy" for me, some people have boats, some people golf, this is my thing. The fact that I want to do it with a quality piece of equipment and not some POS is my choice and how I choose to spend my funds.

Good enough? Sorry I was just asking for some quality advice on something I am not familar with. :(

[4949shooter]

I own a model 700P in .308 and a model 700 VS in .308, both with 26 inch barrels.

The barrels are 1:12 inch twist, and shoot 168 BTHP and 173 FMJBT match (M118) with excellent results. I have fired these rifles out to 600 yards.

If you want to "reach out and touch something," the longer barrels will serve you well. If you plan to shoot at 300 yards or less, you will be fine with the 20 incher.

Just my experience and humble opinion, of course.

[LoneRanger19]

Ok, how about this, I don't hunt, I am not using this for "prefessional use" (I am non-military, non-LEO) and I don't shoot in competition.

I enjoy like many of us just to go and put holes in paper for a good time, and I do not have any kind of long range rilfle of this type in my collection currently. Not to mention the fact I like this type of gun and want one.

Look truth is this is going to be nothing more than an "expensive big boy toy" for me, some people have boats, some people golf, this is my thing. The fact that I want to do it with a quality piece of equipment and not some POS is my choice and how I choose to spend my funds.

Good enough? Sorry I was just asking for some quality advice on something I am not familar with. :(

I'm in the same boat, I don't hunt, and I'm not a active member of the police/military and I don't compete in shooting sports. Some will say, what purpose is there to own a AR, AK, or even a Hi Capacity handgun if you just going to shoot it at the range. Do it because you can.

I know your mentioning .308 bolt guns, but have you ever consider a FAL or a Springfield M1A?

[Eric2340]

M1A is next in the plans, already have a AK and a .223 semi-auto. :) Figured I wanted / needed a .308 bolt gun more than I did a .308 semi-auto at this point, plus I have no other bolt guns other than a .22LR.

Thanks -

[Openroadracer]

Go with the shorter barrel. I have a Savage with a 26" barrel and wish it was a couple inches shorter.

[Eric2340]

Go with the shorter barrel. I have a Savage with a 26" barrel and wish it was a couple inches shorter.

I am REALLY on the fence w/ this :(

Give me a good reason for the shorter barrel?



So far I see w/ the longer barrel -

- More energy down range and a little further out (over the 26", not anther caliber"
- more FPS (" ")
- more accuracy (" ")
- Less noise


With the 20" it seems -

- same energy and FPS at shorter distances (under 300 yds)
- eaiser to move around with, place (setting up a spot) and to store
- louder ??
- possible more accurate at shorter ranges due to more barrel being more rigid?


What else am I missing, pros and cons on both?

[tyger006]

Actually, going back now and reading that other post and reviewing the data again, there looks to be not the much of a dB differnce in the .30-06 between the 18" and 24" barrels -

.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 " barrel 163.2dB


Granted the shorter barrel IS louder, but it's not by that much either - 4.7 dB. The data is somewhat relative since we are considering .308 barrel lengths of 6" difference also.

Think the shorter .308 20" barrel will be THAT much louder to make a significant difference?

I still want to know how much it's going to effect long range accuracy also -

While noise was not your primary concern, remember that the increments for db is not linear, but that the noise goes up by a higher factor than 1 for each increment. So 4.7db difference may seem like a larger difference than what you have in your mind. Just a thought, though I would not base my decision on the sound of a weapon used for long distance.

Tyger

[Dean]

"I don't hunt, I am not using this for "professional use" (I am non-military, non-LEO) and I don't shoot in competition. I just want a toy."
No. That's not the right outlook.

Are you planning to learn to hunt?
Are you planning to learn Combat Rifle/Urban Rifle/Long Rifle skills?

There's your reasons right there for buying the tool.
You buy it because it enables you to learn and to master new skills. Say it like that when people ask you why you want a .308 you have no experience with. Tell them you want it because you're an American man, and you feel a responsibility to maintain skill with a rifle.
You can be made a rifleman. It happens every day.:drillsgt:

[Eric2340]

I think I am sold on the 26" SPS Varmint for now. Sounds more like what I want to me.

[Openroadracer]

I am REALLY on the fence w/ this :(

Give me a good reason for the shorter barrel?



So far I see w/ the longer barrel -

- More energy down range and a little further out (over the 26", not anther caliber"
- more FPS (" ")
- more accuracy (" ")
- Less noise


With the 20" it seems -

- same energy and FPS at shorter distances (under 300 yds)
- eaiser to move around with, place (setting up a spot) and to store
- louder ??
- possible more accurate at shorter ranges due to more barrel being more rigid?


What else am I missing, pros and cons on both?

The 26" heavy barrel Savage I have is a great rifle for shooting off the bench with a rest. Shooting offhand or sittng the balance of the rifle is just to forward for it to be comfortable. The 24" heavy barrel Savage I've held didn't seem anywhere near as bad, and of course the 20" is even better for unsupported shooting. 26" is just to long to go hiking around with and I feel limits my activities with the rifle.

[Jesuvuah]

Haved you held the varmint model yet? I did not care for the stock on it much and it is not free floating from what I could see.

From my understanding the stock on the tactical model is better. It is free floating (although if you rest the rifle on the stock, I hear the stock ends up touching the barrel).

I have been debating all the same issues as you. I want a .308 rifle for longer range shooting. I did not want anything real pricey to start with, and from all the ones I have researched and looked at I think I will start with the sps tactical and make upgrades to it as I can afford to.

I hope you get it all figured out and make sure to tell us how it shoots.

[vafish]

While noise was not your primary concern, remember that the increments for db is not linear, but that the noise goes up by a higher factor than 1 for each increment. So 4.7db difference may seem like a larger difference than what you have in your mind. Just a thought, though I would not base my decision on the sound of a weapon used for long distance.

Tyger


Correct an increase of 3 db means that the pressure on your ears has doubled.

[Eric2340]

I plan on changing the stock eventually so it's not really an issue.

I also plan on mainly either bench shooting or from a rest, so the longer barrel should not factor into that either as one of the other posters said also.

I just can't get my head wrapped around the idea of the 20" w/o being concerned I am limiting myself in some way or form.

Again, I figure there has GOT to be a reason you see more of these .308 rifles in longer barrel lengths than you do the short one. Look no further than the classic M40 - it has a 24" barrell.

[Eric2340]

Correct an increase of 3 db means that the pressure on your ears has doubled.


Yow, no thank you. :(


I wonder how a shorter barrel effects putting a can on the end of it too? I bet that changes everything one way or another.

[DFin]

Check out www.tacticaloperations.com and then click on the S.W.A.T. magazine cover with the title "Barrel length and the Precision Rifle." It says the LASD SEB uses 18 inch barrel .308 rifles and explains why.

[RMTactical]

I wouldn't go longer than 20".

[m814]

I had a .308 built for me a couple of years ago on a Mauser action. I specified a 20" SS Lothar Walther barrel with a medium No 4 contour. It is a fantastic rifle. Shoots 4-5 shots that can be covered with a dime at 100Yds, excellent balance, just the right length to carry, and the barrel is not so heavy. As far as being loud, I shoot all my rifles with ear plugs, what difference is a few dB going to make. I would not advise shooting any rifle without hearing protection. The 20" has been proven to be a great balance for the .308 and accurate out to 400 yds. As far as a heavy barrel, I can't imagine toting that for very long, and there would be really no advantage to that. And as far as a 26", that would be fine for setting up on a bipod and laying prone or on a bench, really limits playing with it though. FWIW, I haven't hunted since 94, and I just wanted an expensive "toy" too.

[JKG]

These may have already been mentioned:

1. dB is logarithmic, and not linear. 'Sound levels' go up faster than one would think.

2. The shorter barrel will be stiffer and have less barrel whip.

3. Buy the long barrel. If you don't like it, have it cut down or do it yourself in stages. Get a forcing cone reamer with the correct pilot to re-crown the barrel. You can't add length to the shorter barrel without buying a new one. The long one can just be trimmed if you find the accuracy to be too low for your tastes. You may find its ok as is and you have the additional velocity as a bonus.

[DonD]

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any real discussion on accuracy as it relates to barrel length. Given appropriately stiff barrels, a shorter barrel doesn't give up anything in accuracy to a longer one. As long as the shorter barrel can drive the slug you want to shoot to a velocity that the twist can properly stabilize, it will give you all the accuracy the round/loading can provide.

For 300 yds and under, you won't be compromised by the 20" barrel, only you and your chronograph will know the difference. At long ranges, things might be different. Don

[G26man]

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any real discussion on accuracy as it relates to barrel length. Given appropriately stiff barrels, a shorter barrel doesn't give up anything in accuracy to a longer one. As long as the shorter barrel can drive the slug you want to shoot to a velocity that the twist can properly stabilize, it will give you all the accuracy the round/loading can provide.

For 300 yds and under, you won't be compromised by the 20" barrel, only you and your chronograph will know the difference. At long ranges, things might be different. Don
Yep, all other things being equal a shorter barrel should actually be more accurate because it is inherently stiffer. The longer the barrel the higher the amplitude of the vibrations when it is fired. Longer barrels were/are associated with accuracy by conventional wisdom due to increased sight radius (which only applies to iron sights) and higher velocity providing better ballistics (less holdover). Disregarding those issues however, shorter barrels are more accurate.

Of course everything is relative. A poorly bedded or made 18" barrel could vibrate worse than a quality 28" barrel and be less accurate. Some rifles might be more accurate with a longer barrel within the same model. If the rifle's other attributes like bedding, action, rifling/bore/crown are of variable quality then its accuracy depends little on barrel length.

[Eric2340]

Perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any real discussion on accuracy as it relates to barrel length. Given appropriately stiff barrels, a shorter barrel doesn't give up anything in accuracy to a longer one. As long as the shorter barrel can drive the slug you want to shoot to a velocity that the twist can properly stabilize, it will give you all the accuracy the round/loading can provide.

For 300 yds and under, you won't be compromised by the 20" barrel, only you and your chronograph will know the difference. At long ranges, things might be different. Don


THAT is my main concern with the shorter one, while I understand everything I GAIN with the shorter one, I also do not want to limit myself in anyway by going with it either.

My other concern is does the shorter barrel narrow your ammo choices also, as from what I read in that recommended SWAT magazine article listed above, they also said that everything they found was also not only effected by the barrel length, but also by the bullet weight and type of powerder also.

I know the way the cartridge is loaded variable is going to effect any rifle and barrel length to one degree or another anyway, but it also seems to me that there is a lot more room for error or more options available with the longer barrel also?

Am I right or am I wrong?