.32acp info ...Sanow and Marshall

[1999Cobra]

Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power. On the face of it, the Marshall/Sanow results seem ridiculous. A .45 caliber hole produced by a 230 grain bullet would appear to be far more effective in stopping power than a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber.

Missing from the caliber equation is the jet stream turbulence produced by the configuration of the bullet. A .45 bullet that is streamlined to pass through air with the least resistance may not provide the best stopping power.

The trapped and compressed air within the hollow point bullet along with compressed gelatinous mass produces a hydraulic effect when the bullet strikes soft tissue. If things go right, the bullet cup is mushroomed out and the bullet expands to a larger caliber. The degree of penetration is reduced to the degree the bullet expands. The more expansion one gets, the less penetration one gets.

Regardless of whether the hollow point bullet expands or not, there is still turbulence produced by the cup. This turbulence is absent from the streamlined air foil design of ball ammo.

The hollow point cup creates a jet stream that in flesh or gelatin produces a temporary wound cavity of substantially greater diameter than the bullet. This cavity helps allow for bullet expansion since the pressure of the compressed material in the cup is far greater than is the pressure found outside the cup.

For this reason, hollow point ammo generally expands better in bare ballistic gelatin than it does, if at all, in clothed gelatin. When the cup strikes a less resilient surface than soft tissue, the pressures inside and outside the cup are closer to parity and expansion is limited. This almost seems to me to be the ideal situation. If a perpetrator is lightly clothed, the ammo will expand for maximum stopping power. On the other hand, if the perpetrator is heavily clothed and we are looking for better penetration, the ammo will sacrifice expansion for penetration.

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

[legion3]

:dunno: :drool: :50cal:

[MOHAA Player]

Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power.
Yeah I'll sell my SA XD 45acp and grab a Bersa Thunder .380:rofl:

[Preußen]

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7830/spockua3.jpg


"surely you can't be serious" - - "I am serious. And don't call me Shirley"

[James Markov]

I own a .32 acp with Corbon hollow points and it is by no means as effective as a .45acp hardball round...

[legion3]

a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber.


:dunno: ummmm may not?

lets ask the dog what he thinks about jet stream turbulence.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/roman3/woha-1.jpg

[Boris Bush]

James Markov (http://glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=56429)

Sounds like you have shot more than paper, with both.

How much better has the 45 killed for you than the 32?</SCRIPT>

[Jim Watson]

Yes, but if you load your .45 with semiwadcutters you get "shoulder turbulation" according to a prominent gunsmith of the last century.

[1999Cobra]

The report came from a ballistics study, I'm only posting what the report states - but, I think their scientific results speak a lot more volume than -

(edited)

Who doesn't own a .45acp? All the Lemmings own .45acp's - probably 95% of everybody on this site at one time or another has owned one or fired one, so 'ing what...:rofl: It's about effectiveness - .32hollow vs .45 ball that's it not about anything but that - stay on topic...

[1999Cobra]

Yes, but if you load your .45 with semiwadcutters you get "shoulder turbulation" according to a prominent gunsmith of the last century.

That's RIGHT - but this is about .32 hollows vs .45 ball - stay on topic ...:upeyes:

[RedsoxFan4Lyfe]

A .32 is nowhere near and never will be near an .45acp, or ANY larger caliber bullet for that matter. There is just no way.

Hollow point ammo only helps so much, you are still shooting an anemic caliber with a 60grain slug. I cant even believe that I just read that. I want 2 minutes of my life back.

[legion3]

the 32 acp

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/roman3/Military/the1911.jpg


the 45 ACP

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x49/roman3/Military/theGlock.jpg

[1999Cobra]

A .32 is nowhere near and never will be near an .45acp, or ANY larger caliber bullet for that matter. There is just no way.
Hollow point ammo only helps so much, you are still shooting an anemic caliber with a 60grain slug. I cant even believe that I just read that. I want 2 minutes of my life back.

I can't believe it, I can't believe it, so it's just NOT true, because I can't believe it...:rofl:

[Mwinter]

2 critical points are either not elaborated upon or missing from the 'study':

1. Neither the .45acp or .32acp reach the speeds at which many rifle bullets fragment (generally above 2000fps; rifle wounds with large temp cavities and fraggin pills wound well....the fragments cut tissues already stretched by TC). Temp cav in service handgun calibers, fragmenting or not, is not a significant portion of the bullet's terminal effect/wounding ability.

2. The .45acp FMJ round will almost always penetrate deep enough to damage major blood vessels, vital organs, and/or CNS. Many .32acp bullets, esp. JHPs, have trouble reaching a suitable depth in gel tests, and also penetrating common barriers and/or body structures (window glass, skulls) in real-world shootings. The .45acp is very capable of doing both in either FMJ or JHP flavors.

The usefulness of PROPERLY analyzed data from anecdotal 'street shootings' is evident. The usefulnesss of 'Stopping Power' percentages in predicting how well a cartridge will perform or which caliber you should carry is largely discounted by many authorities on the subject.

[James Markov]

James Markov (http://glocktalk.com/forums/member.php?u=56429)

Sounds like you have shot more than paper, with both.

How much better has the 45 killed for you than the 32?</SCRIPT>

No sir I have not used the .32 for anything more than paper and tin can punching. The .45 ball is quite effective on racoons and groundhogs-I have not shot anything larger than that-what are your experiences if I may ask?

[Boris Bush]

With a 45, rodents a few ounces to deer 150+ pounds.

Nothing with the 32 yet.

I used the 5.56 on non paper targets that shot back. Short and sweet report form an end user here. 5.56 works fine, and the M4 is better than the AK-47 for fighting war. Mine did spectacular from 0-200 meters (not paper targets again) and when you had time to get a good prone and a good battle buddy to give accurate range, shots 500+ were not all that hard if you could dope the wind good...............

[dougader]

I used to carry a Seecamp 32 and never saw a 32 acp Silvertip that actually expanded much at all; more of a slight deformation of the nose, even in water (which usually makes even the most unreliable jhp's expand perfectly.

I have the old Marshall/Sanow book on stopping power. Its interesting reading. They count hits to the thoracic cavity... meaning a shot in the lung counts as much as a shot through the heart if I'm reading their work correctly. I imagine 45 ball through the chest that happens to miss the heart and major veins/arteries might not do as well as a 32 STHP through the heart.

That stuff above about hp's and jetstreams just can't have validity for a weak, slow moving hp in 32 acp when there's simply not enough velocity to even begin to effect reliable expansion in the first place. Not in my mind, at least.