Is the .357 Sig dying?

[JNKIRK1974]

I was interested in getting one of the USP Compacts in the .357 Sig. However, I'm not sure I want to do it, because it's almost TOO CHEAP. Is the 357 Sig caliber dying or almost dead?

[cphilip]

It has its fans... but to me it seems it still has never taken off fully nor in any hurry. Hard to say...

[AdminJarhead]

I was interested in getting one of the USP Compacts in the .357 Sig. However, I'm not sure I want to do it, because it's almost TOO CHEAP. Is the 357 Sig caliber dying or almost dead?

I hope not I just ordered one in a Sig 229!!!:supergrin:

[Esox357]

How much? Esox357.

[JNKIRK1974]

Well, the prices that the USP Compact in 357 is going for is almost too hard to pass up. However, I don't want to get stuck with an expensive paper weight!

[carbofan21]

my guess is it will always remain a "niche" caliber, much like the 10mm and .45 gap. none are "bad" calibers by any means, but they don't do anything appreciably better or different than 9mm/.40/.45 acp...

i seriously doubt any will disappear off the face of the map. heck you can buy .44-40 at my local walmart...

[JNKIRK1974]

How much? Esox357.

I've seen them below $600. New in box (and not cardboard!).

[kdcgrohl]

NIB w/ 3 10 round mags, last I saw them they were 550. I bought one. .357SIG is here to stay, It will never outsell 9/40/45 though.

[carbofan21]

i think cdnn had some for like $550 nib. might still have it

[JNKIRK1974]

i think cdnn had some for like $550 nib. might still have it

That's a GREAT price for a very solid gun. Too bad I can't get the .45 at that price!

[SouthpawShootr]

I was interested in getting one of the USP Compacts in the .357 Sig. However, I'm not sure I want to do it, because it's almost TOO CHEAP. Is the 357 Sig caliber dying or almost dead?

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure you can just swap in a USPc .40SW barrel if you are uncomfortable with the .357 Sig for whatever reason. Should swap out just like it does with Glock and Sig. The .357 Sig is getting more LE attention. You know the US Secret Service uses it. VASP uses it. IIRC, NCSP also. There are (lots of) others. FWIW, I don't see this dying off anytime soon. H&K isn't selling enough USPc in that caliber. That's why you see CDNN closing them out. I've been tempted several times to get one of these myself. Only thing is I use this chambering for carry, but it doesn't dominate my range time and I don't want a bunch of guns in this caliber. Go ahead and get it.

[bac1023]

I think it will stay.

[Victoriagotagun]

I think .357 SIG is here to stay but in this case H&K discontinued the round because they weren't selling enough when compared to 9/40/45

[bb85cc]

i dont thank that it will over take 9/40/45 but i dont see it going away any time soon i can find it in most all of my local gun shop and even walmart carries it around here

[FLRon777]

Yes, you can swap out the Sig P229 .357 SIG barrel for a .40 S&W without any modifications.

The magazines are the same as well.

[NYC Drew]

my guess is it will always remain a "niche" caliber, much like the 10mm and .45 gap. none are "bad" calibers by any means, but they don't do anything appreciably better or different than 9mm/.40/.45 acp...

i seriously doubt any will disappear off the face of the map. heck you can buy .44-40 at my local walmart...


We should also alert the USSS and the FAMs on this caliber being in the niche.

'Drew

[rcarroll49]

New Mexico State Police loves it. I believe many other L.E. Agencies use it also.


Below is Dick Metcalf's thoughts on the .357 Sig.

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-advoc.htm

Dick Metcalf states: "The 357 Sig is the best 9mm cartridge made. It shoots like a 357 Magnum, recoils like a 9mm Luger, operates more reliably than a 40 S&W, requires no significant new engineering or tool-up costs to produce, and there are already eight high-performance, new-tech, premium-brand commercial ammo loads on the market (not to mention all the handloading tools and components...)."

[BigPhil]

We should also alert the USSS and the FAMs on this caliber being in the niche.

'Drew


If we glocktalkers don't tell them, who will?

[carbofan21]

We should also alert the USSS and the FAMs on this caliber being in the niche.

'Drew

maybe you should do that drew. and alert walmart while you're at it. maybe they would start charging less than $20 a box for winchester white box

[JRP99]

The caliber is far from dead. It might not be as popular as other calibers but it has it's fans. I myself own 3 of them. A P229, P239, P2340 and a H&K P2000. Plus with just a barrel swap you can have a .40 S&W too.

Jrp99

[BrianNH]

I work with a fairly large LE distributor. Sales of the .357 Sig, while no where near the .40, still remain steady and if anything have increased over the years. I think it's too late for the round to go away. I also see a lot of .40 people going the conversion barrel route to the .357 Sig. The ammo cost for the .357 Sig was the same as the .40 per case at ammoman.com the last time I checked.

[BOM]

Over the last month i've fallen in love with my TFSS's. I haven't found another handgun round i shoot better.

Glock 31
USPc .357
Sig 229 .357

[JNKIRK1974]

So.......

I could buy the USP Compact in the .357. Then, switch out the barrel for the 40.

Then, you're telling me that the 40 mags will fit with no problems?

Just wanted to make sure.

[BrianNH]

New Mexico State Police loves it. I believe many other L.E. Agencies use it also.


Below is Dick Metcalf's thoughts on the .357 Sig.

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-advoc.htm

Dick Metcalf states: "The 357 Sig is the best 9mm cartridge made. It shoots like a 357 Magnum, recoils like a 9mm Luger, operates more reliably than a 40 S&W, requires no significant new engineering or tool-up costs to produce, and there are already eight high-performance, new-tech, premium-brand commercial ammo loads on the market (not to mention all the handloading tools and components...)."

Try telling the 9mm guys that. :supergrin: It's funny how someone can like the 9mm +P and +P+ and not like the .357 Sig.

[BrianNH]

So.......

I could buy the USP Compact in the .357. Then, switch out the barrel for the 40.

Then, you're telling me that the 40 mags will fit with no problems?

Just wanted to make sure.

Yes, it's one of the greatest benefits to either cartridge. Check out Top Gun Supply for USP conversion barrels.

[carbofan21]

Try telling the 9mm guys that. :supergrin: It's funny how someone can like the 9mm +P and +P+ and not like the .357 Sig.

357sig is a fine cartridge. only thing i don't care for is the limited options/availability of ammo (especially plinking ammo), extra cost of the ammo, and the noise. last time i was in walmart, i think it was $18.47 a box, compared to $8.97 a box for 9mm, and $12.47 for the .40. i'm not hurting for cash, but that could start to add up in a hurry

[panzer1]

I hope not I just ordered one in a Sig 229!!!:supergrin:I have a 226 in 375sig with the drop in 40s&w barrel.So you can always get the 40s&w barrel for it also.My the way you will love the sig.I do.

[edw8ri]

Sig had the 239 in 357 Sig on sale. I would not say its dying. I would say its not thriving. Ammo is expensive and choices are much more limited than with 9mm and .40.

I think that the 357 Sig is a great cartridge that has no natural market. The 40 is beloved by law enforcement. The 9mm has been around forever. With the advances in bullet technology, a hot 9mm SD round it pretty impressive. And most people who think that a 9mm is not enough buy a 40. Where does the 357 Sig fit in?

[AustinTx]

The Texas DPS is using the 357. That is several thousand guns. I believe it replaced the 45APC. Upper management made some tests before adopting it. They found that the cadets could shoot the 357 better.
At

[BOM]

As is the U.S. Secret Service, which is several hundred guns, the Federal Air Marshals Service. Again, several hundred guns, and the New Mexico State Police; over 1000 guns.

Add all the local depts. (SFSO for one) using the .357SIG, and you have a pretty solid LE backing. Far stronger then 10mm, and we all know damn well that even the 10 is here to stay, so worry not about the .357SIG.

[HiVelSword]

I think .357 SIG is here to stay but in this case H&K discontinued the round because they weren't selling enough when compared to 9/40/45

They never offered it in the full sized USP because for some godforsaken reason they couldn't get it to run right. But somehow there were no issues with the USPc. :headscratch:

I doubt it will die off anytime soon since the Air Marshalls, Secret Service, Texas DPS and a few large PD's use it.

Something that duplicates .357 mag (125 grain defense load NOT handloads) from a 4" revolver barrel is not a poor choice by any stretch of the imagination.

[HiVelSword]

As is the U.S. Secret Service, which is several hundred guns, the Federal Air Marshals Service. Again, several hundred guns, and the New Mexico State Police; over 1000 guns.

Add all the local depts. (SFSO for one) using the .357SIG, and you have a pretty solid LE backing. Far stronger then 10mm, and we all know damn well that even the 10 is here to stay, so worry not about the .357SIG.

Well put.

[Yellowfin]

What seems conspicuously absent in the discussion of the .357 Sig is the .38 Super. Same bullet meanted to do the same thing, and was done pretty much the same several decades earlier. How would a modern .38 Super load match up alongside the Sig? There is a nice Colt Series 70 in .38 Super in my family I've gotta locate...might use it for carry.

[HiVelSword]

What seems conspicuously absent in the discussion of the .357 Sig is the .38 Super. Same bullet meanted to do the same thing, and was done pretty much the same several decades earlier. How would a modern .38 Super load match up alongside the Sig? There is a nice Colt Series 70 in .38 Super in my family I've gotta locate...might use it for carry.

Nothing wrong with the super at all. It's one of my favorite cartridges.

But the .357 SIG still holds a small edge in velocity/ME and it fits in 9mm/40 S&W sized pistols.

The 9x23 is on the same level as the .357 SIG but if I were to get a Commander today it'd be in .38 Super.

[Yellowfin]

Other than Taurus and some race guns I haven't seen a .38 Super hit the market in a long while. The 9x23 and Largo confuse me. Same thing?

[carbofan21]

stopped off at walmart to buy another 250 each of 9mm and .40

asked the guy about 357 sig. he said the only one they carry in 357 sig is winchester white box FMJ, at $22.67 for 50 rounds

that's $24.43 a box when you include the tax

that my friends is obscene

[carbofan21]

if i still owned a 357 sig, i would jump on ammoman's deal and clean that dude out. 500 rounds of speer lawman for $169 delivered

[Cambo]

I am a fan of .357 sig, .38 super and 9 x 23. It is a shame they don't get more interest. All are powerful and accurate.

[glockbk]

stopped off at walmart to buy another 250 each of 9mm and .40

asked the guy about 357 sig. he said the only one they carry in 357 sig is winchester white box FMJ, at $22.67 for 50 rounds

that's $24.43 a box when you include the tax

that my friends is obscene

Hey, I'm forced to pay $30-35 a box for .357 Sig and no matter how hard I look, it never gets any cheaper than that.

Does anyone know a website that sells .40 Glock barrels for the 32? Searched for HOURS last week and couldn't find one.

[Beware Owner]

I think it's catching on more than before.

[chowchow]

Get the .40 cal its much better and cheaper.

[Beware Owner]

Get the .40 cal its much better and cheaper.

Unless, of course, you want a caliber that has foot/lbs of power, get the Sig.

[carbofan21]

Hey, I'm forced to pay $30-35 a box for .357 Sig and no matter how hard I look, it never gets any cheaper than that.

Does anyone know a website that sells .40 Glock barrels for the 32? Searched for HOURS last week and couldn't find one.

here you go.. $109.95
http://glockparts.com/store/item/ghc2/Glock_Non-Comp/G-23_Barrel.html

also, you could check out the 357 sig deal at www.ammoman.com. it averages out to $16.90 a box when you buy 500 rounds

[HiVelSword]

Get the .40 cal its much better and cheaper.

Well, you got it half right.

[smirnoff]

I just ordered .357 sig barrel for my P229, thus contributing to demand for this caliber for years to come. I am not alone, so for as long as there is demand, there will be supply.

[Hugo R]

Darn shame that DHS didn't jump on board the .357sig in the Glock configurations. That would have helped the popularity some.

I've shot a friends 229 for years and although a bit snappier than the 9 I still love the way it hits. I was always a great friend of the .357 magnum.

I thought the .357sig was a great way to keep a great bullet going. I don't think it will go completely away.

HR

[sigcalcatrant]

Get the .40 cal its much better and cheaper.It's a little cheaper. It's definitely not better. In fact, The .357SIG is a little better. It shoots flatter and is more accurate.

[bac1023]

Get the .40 cal its much better and cheaper.

Its cheaper, but I'm not sure how its better.

[PillBox]

Go to Ammoman.com and buy in bulk. The .357 Sig is do-able. Don't you want at least ONE of your pistols to have some real balls?

PB

[Alaskapopo]

It's a little cheaper. It's definitely not better. In fact, The .357SIG is a little better. It shoots flatter and is more accurate.

The 40 expands to larger diameters which means a larger crush cavity and more bleeding. The 357 sig tends to be more accurate. The 40 has more foot pounds when loaded with light bullets vs the 357 sig. I am not a fan of either.
Pat

[HiVelSword]

The 40 has more foot pounds when loaded with light bullets vs the 357 sig.

Not according to Doubletap or Cor Bon.

[unit1069]

I own three handguns; two in 9mm and one in .357sig.

If I could have only one handgun it will always be the .357sig. More power, more accuracy, more power and accuracy at distance, more feeding reliability, and more overall confidence in the ability to cope with a wider range of situations in both urban and rural settings.

The primary factors of weapons reliability, accuracy, and mental preparation are constants; when all those factors are present the power and accuracy of caliber at distances close and afar should be the next consideration. IIRC, the drop in sight accuracy of .357sig 125-grain through a 4" barrel at 50 yards is .6", far better trajectory than any other handgun caliber.

[SDDL-UP]

I say in twenty years or so the 357 Sig will be another 38 Super. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it's not going to displace the 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.

Personally I'd rather have a 38 Super in an EAA Witness... more capacity than a 357 Sig.

If your shooting a 357 Sig because "it's better at distance" you're just not being realistic IMO. The differences in this level of handguns is so miniscule it's not worth mentioning.

[AustinTx]

The 40 expands to larger diameters which means a larger crush cavity and more bleeding. The 357 sig tends to be more accurate. The 40 has more foot pounds when loaded with light bullets vs the 357 sig. I am not a fan of either.
Pat


How about a picture of one compared to the other. So far this is just gossip.
At

[SKYWLKR]

Can you convert it to 9mm or .40?

[AustinTx]

Hey, I'm forced to pay $30-35 a box for .357 Sig and no matter how hard I look, it never gets any cheaper than that.

Does anyone know a website that sells .40 Glock barrels for the 32? Searched for HOURS last week and couldn't find one.


I bought a new Glock 22 barrel for my G31 at the local Glock shop.
At

[Not Simple]

Interchangable with any .40 bbl. in almost any handgun. The .357 Sig is clearly here to stay. It's fun to shoot and now since the ammo manufacturers are starting to get the hint they are making more of it all the time. This brought the price down significantly in the last two or so years. Oh and just so you know I want to post a list of law enforcement agencies who currently use the .357 Sig. I'm not certain if this is all but I think it will give you an idea how popular it has become.
Here ya go,


Alameda County
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)
Dallas, Texas Police
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229
Keizer Police Department, Oregon
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee
Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens (P226)
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)
Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents - P229
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police
EtcI would say that represents a big pile of guns in the hands of law enforcement officers who probably traded in .40's and 9mm. who have found that the power and penetration capacity of this round was superior to what they previously carried. I think the .357 Sig has found a place. :dunno:

[carbofan21]

"This brought the price down significantly in the last two or so years."

these were the prices today at walmart (tax not included):
$22.67 357 sig (box of 50)
$14.97 .45 acp (box of 50)
$12.47 .40 s&w (box of 50)
$8.97 9mm (box of 50)

[carbofan21]

It's a little cheaper. It's definitely not better. In fact, The .357SIG is a little better. It shoots flatter and is more accurate.

actually, it's A LOT cheaper. and as for 357 sig shooting flatter, unless you're trying to bullseye a target from 100 yards, who cares? even outside of a reasonable self-defense distance (say 25 yards), you'll never know the difference

[AustinTx]

The 357 Sig. is a bottle neck cartridge, as all know. Getting a round from the mag. into the chamber is like pouring water through a funnel. That sucker will feed. This inherent reliability of feeding is what got my interest. The power level is just more icing on the cake.
At

[Alaskapopo]

How about a picture of one compared to the other. So far this is just gossip.
At
Sure
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/bullets/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

[Alaskapopo]

The 357 Sig. is a bottle neck cartridge, as all know. Getting a round from the mag. into the chamber is like pouring water through a funnel. That sucker will feed. This inherent reliability of feeding is what got my interest. The power level is just more icing on the cake.
At
Its not as a reliable of a feeder. 357 sig mags have to be designed so they do not nose dive the rounds on the feed ramp. I had issues with a Browning HP that I had Cylinder and Slide convert from 40 to 357 sig and I had issues with a Glock 33 with this problem.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

Can you convert it to 9mm or .40?
A 357 sig can fire a 40 with a barrel change and vice versa. To shoot 9mm you need a new mag and sometimes a different recoil spring (non glocks)
Pat

[G. Glock]

Since I'm one who tends to rarely go along with the crowd, I hesitate to say anything negative about the .357 Sig. I have little or no interest in it, but I must say that I've been tempted to buy a .357 Sig barrel for my G27 or G23, just because that's all it would take. It might be fun.

I like the 9mm, .40, & .45, but I tend to prefer heavy bullets. If I were a huge fan of the small fast bullet, as many are, I'd give the .357 Sig serious consideration because it's chambered in the best auto pistol made, the Glock! ;-).

[unit1069]

Since I'm one who tends to rarely go along with the crowd, I hesitate to say anything negative about the .357 Sig. I have little or no interest in it, but I must say that I've been tempted to buy a .357 Sig barrel for my G27 or G23, just because that's all it would take. It might be fun.

I like the 9mm, .40, & .45, but I tend to prefer heavy bullets. If I were a huge fan of the small fast bullet, as many are, I'd give the .357 Sig serious consideration because it's chambered in the best auto pistol made, the Glock! ;-).

Double Tap makes a .357sig 147-grain Gold Dot JHP that is advertised at 1250 fps/510 ft lbs muzzle energy through a 4" barrel. I've always been of the opinion that .357sig is the caliber to wring the real potential out of a 147-grain bullet.

[Beware Owner]

Double Tap makes a .357sig 147-grain Gold Dot JHP that is advertised at 1250 fps/510 ft lbs muzzle energy through a 4" barrel. I've always been of the opinion that .357sig is the caliber to wring the real potential out of a 147-grain bullet.

I'm not sure the .40 even hits the 500 ft/lbs mark. Can you tell me why it is that the Sig and the 10 are the only ones to knock down the gelatin blocks and break the wooden planks that hold them down?

[Alaskapopo]

I'm not sure the .40 even hits the 500 ft/lbs mark. Can you tell me why it is that the Sig and the 10 are the only ones to knock down the gelatin blocks and break the wooden planks that hold them down?
The 40 with 135 grain bullets from Corbon at 1300 fps has 506 footpounds.
Pat

[carbofan21]

then again, the whole foot/lbs argument is secondary at best to 12" minimum penetration + expansion. the 9mm 147 grain HST meets or exceeds both criteria with a mere 325 ft/lbs at the muzzle...

if foot/lbs were of greater importance, the 158 grain .38 special lead hp round probably never would have taken off

[sigcalcatrant]

actually, it's A LOT cheaper. and as for 357 sig shooting flatter, unless you're trying to bullseye a target from 100 yards, who cares? even outside of a reasonable self-defense distance (say 25 yards), you'll never know the differenceNo, it's NOT a lot cheaper. Of course, I don't know where you buy ammo.

[carbofan21]

these were the prices yesterday at walmart (tax not included):
$22.67 357 sig (box of 50)
$12.47 .40 s&w (box of 50)

if you say so

[HiVelSword]

Its not as a reliable of a feeder. 357 sig mags have to be designed so they do not nose dive the rounds on the feed ramp. I had issues with a Browning HP that I had Cylinder and Slide convert from 40 to 357 sig and I had issues with a Glock 33 with this problem.
Pat

Your opinion. I had a .40 BHP I had converted by Don Williams at The Action Works and where the .40 had feed issues with JHP's the .357 SIG never missed a beat.

[Alaskapopo]

Your opinion. I had a .40 BHP I had converted by Don Williams at The Action Works and where the .40 had feed issues with JHP's the .357 SIG never missed a beat.

Not my opinion its fact. All bottle neck pistol rounds are harder to make feed reliably than tapered wall cases like the 9mm or straight wall cases like the 40. I am happy that your 357 sig BHP worked but that is the exception not the norm. The magazines need to be tweaked and worked over to reliably feed 357 sig rounds.
Pat

[Glolt20-91]

Bottom line is terminal performance, so, when Texas DPS states the .357SIG performs well against violent felons; that kinda puts everthing into perspective.

Speer #14 published in 4/2007 states the .357SIG "has become a quite popular cartridge" (p. 860) and further states, ". . . the bottleneck case offers very reliable feeding . . ."

Remington still makes brass for the .357SIG which is a good sign; however, they dropped the 10mm and Speer #14 echoes that popularity demise for the 10mm.

I say in twenty years or so the 357 Sig will be another 38 Super. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it's not going to displace the 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W or 45 ACP.


I doubt the .357SIG will ever be as popular as the .38Super, especially in countries outside the United States. In certain competition circles the .38Super is the dominant caliber and it puts up some high numbers with fully supported barrels. Consider this, AA #7 was developed for the .38Super and Hornady's original HAP bullet (.356 cal) was designed for the .38Super in 2001.

Starline brass has modified the Super +P web/rim design with both a Todd Jarrett and a Competition design.

When Western Powders, Hornady and Starline put $$$s into a specific cartridge, I doubt it's going to be dying off anytime soon.

Barnes Bullets and Corbon have teamed up, the XPB bullet has a good rep for penetration w/o uber velocities;

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/dpx.htm

Bob :cowboy:

[Cobra64]

Get the .40 cal its much better....

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/AwJeeze.gif

.

[Cobra64]

It's a little cheaper. It's definitely not better. In fact, The .357SIG is a little better. It shoots flatter and is more accurate.The trajectory is flatter.

[Cobra64]

Not my opinion its fact. All bottle neck pistol rounds are harder to make feed reliably than tapered wall cases...
If it is a "fact," then you should have ample evidence to support your statement.

Would you care to share this data with the rest of us?

Probably the FBI and other federal agencies have white papers on this topic.

.

[AustinTx]

Not my opinion its fact. All bottle neck pistol rounds are harder to make feed reliably than tapered wall cases like the 9mm or straight wall cases like the 40. I am happy that your 357 sig BHP worked but that is the exception not the norm. The magazines need to be tweaked and worked over to reliably feed 357 sig rounds.
Pat


This is just so much trash talk. The mags do not need any tweaking and working over. Back when I started carrying a G-31 I had to use 40 S&W magazines, if I wanted hi-cap capabilities. They didn't need anything done to them. If you can't grasp the fact that it is a lot easier to put a .355 bullet into a .400 hole, you will never understand how it works.
At

[Quiet]

As long as LE supports a cartridge, it will not die out.

Many state & local LE agencies as well as two federal LE agencies have adopted the .357SIG. So, the cartridge will be around for quite some time.

[unit1069]

I'm not sure the .40 even hits the 500 ft/lbs mark. Can you tell me why it is that the Sig and the 10 are the only ones to knock down the gelatin blocks and break the wooden planks that hold them down?

If I was a scientist I might be able to tell you why but as soon as I venture a reasonable guess all the hate-.357sig caliber Nazis will be jumping down my throat.

I remember seeing the info you refer to and linking it in a few posts on various threads. There is a whole lot more to learn about caliber, ballistics, power, velocity, etc ... and how it all merges than we know today.

I read that the 9 X 25 Dillon is a real screamer of a round. If somebody knows why that round is so wicked then maybe they can explain the power behind the .357sig and the 10mm.

But the biggest drawback to the cartidge, and the one that largely contributed to it falling out of favor was the enormous shock wave that was produced when the cartidge was fired. When firing the gun, the shooter could actually feel the impulse hit their face and travel up their arm. After a while, some people began to experience Tendinitis in their wrists and other soreness in their wrists and arms. For a lot of people the trade-off from reduced felt recoil and a quicker second shot wasn't worth the potential damage that could be caused to their hearing and wrists.

[SDDL-UP]

Sorry I wasn't trying to dis the 38 Super, I think it has more going for it than the 357 Sig actually. Given the choice of fifteen rounds of 357 Sig or twenty rounds of 38 Super - I'm taking the 38 Super every time!

Would someone please tell me what "flat shooting" means to a 357 Sig fan? I mean is it really advantageous that the 357 Sig might drop three inches less at a hundred yards? Really?

It's an interesting caliber, but it's not going to set the world on fire. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the percentage of agencies using it is pretty small.

[Not Simple]

SDDL-UP wrote
"It's an interesting caliber, but it's not going to set the world on fire. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the percentage of agencies using it is pretty small."

Small? Ok here I'll do it again if you missed my earlier post,

And I quote myself...

"Oh and just so you know I want to post a list of law enforcement agencies who currently use the .357 Sig. I'm not certain if this is all but I think it will give you an idea how popular it has become.
Here ya go,


Alameda County
Delaware State Police (First to adopt the 357 SIG)
Dallas, Texas Police
Federal Air Marshals
Federal Protective Services (FPS) Special Agents for General Services Administration (GSA) - P229
Keizer Police Department, Oregon
La Porte County Indiana Sheriff's Department
Laurence County Sheriff's Office, Tennessee
Las Vegas Metro Police (allowed use of)
Liberty Twp Police Dept, Ohio
Maine Aroostook County Sheriff's Office
Maine Game Wardens (P226)
Maricopa County [Phoenix] Arizona Sheriff's Office/MCSO
Montcalm County (Michigan) Sheriff's Office
New Jersey Division of Fish & Game
New Mexico State Police
Niles Police Dept, Ohio
Northwood Police Dept, ND
NC Highway Patrol
NC Wake County Sheriff's Department
NC Wildlife Enforcement Officers
Nueces County Sheriff Department, Texas (Sigpro)
Oakland County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Orange Police Dept, CT (sig pro, SP2340 .357)
Orlando PD (plainclothes officers)
Oxford, Mississippi
Richmond, Virginia
Rocky Mount Police Dept, Rocky Mount, NC
Springfield, IL
Tennessee Highway Patrol
Union County Sheriff's Office, Marysville, Ohio (Glock 31)
Texas, DPS
United States (GSA) - Office of Inspector General (OIG) Special Agents - P229
United States Secret Service
Virginia State Police
EtcI would say that represents a big pile of guns in the hands of law enforcement officers who probably traded in .40's and 9mm. who have found that the power and penetration capacity of this round was superior to what they previously carried. I think the .357 Sig has found a place. :dunno:

Maybe a small in your mind number compaired to the mass exceptance of the .40 but heck give the Little Sig fifteen years of track record and those numbers might change. And don't get me wrong either I like the S&W .40 as a LE round and in general purpose for almost any reason just fine. But the .357 is really great at zooming through a car door and the .40 won't do that very well, but neither will my favorite fight stopper the .45ACP. Id say based on varying need the .357 Sig is as useful if not more so than other more proven cartridges. Time will tell I guess. I wonder why department armorers recommended to their chief's that they switch from the 9mm, .40S&W, and the .45 in the first place? They surely saw some merit to the new cartridge or they wouldn't have made the switch. Rent a gun at a range shoot a box and you will see why. That round is an intimidator with impressive knock down factors. I like it because it out guns the Boyz from the Hood normally. And in your Glock 31 and Sig 226 you get just as many with the .357 as you do with the .40S&W in like guns with more power as a bonus. I think it gives the underpaid, over worked defenders of our dumb asses a distinct advantage. IMHO
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Alaskapopo]

If it is a "fact," then you should have ample evidence to support your statement.

Would you care to share this data with the rest of us?

Probably the FBI and other federal agencies have white papers on this topic.

.
I have ample personal experience with the 357 sig cartridge. I owned 8 different pistols at one time chambered for the round.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

This is just so much trash talk. The mags do not need any tweaking and working over. Back when I started carrying a G-31 I had to use 40 S&W magazines, if I wanted hi-cap capabilities. They didn't need anything done to them. If you can't grasp the fact that it is a lot easier to put a .355 bullet into a .400 hole, you will never understand how it works.
At

Its not trash talk its personal experience. Sorry if it rains on your parade. I have probably shot more 357 sigs down range than you have and owned more pistols for this round than you. I know it well.
Pat

[glockbk]

This is just so much trash talk. The mags do not need any tweaking and working over. Back when I started carrying a G-31 I had to use 40 S&W magazines, if I wanted hi-cap capabilities. They didn't need anything done to them. If you can't grasp the fact that it is a lot easier to put a .355 bullet into a .400 hole, you will never understand how it works.
At

Something to add: I have put over 1,500 rounds through my Glock. My USP .45 has jammed once at under 1,000 rounds. I've shot a .25 Beretta with three kinds of ammo and they all cause it to jam once every 1,000 rounds or so. I've shot an M1911A1 and it's jammed a few times. Same with an old Iver Johnson .22 rifle. My Glock? It has NEVER jammed since I first put a bullet through the barrel. That speaks plenty to me about whether .357 Sig is a good cartridge. It's the steep price that gets me.

[Alaskapopo]

Something to add: I have put over 1,500 rounds through my Glock. My USP .45 has jammed once at under 1,000 rounds. I've shot a .25 Beretta with three kinds of ammo and they all cause it to jam once every 1,000 rounds or so. I've shot an M1911A1 and it's jammed a few times. Same with an old Iver Johnson .22 rifle. My Glock? It has NEVER jammed since I first put a bullet through the barrel. That speaks plenty to me about whether .357 Sig is a good cartridge. It's the steep price that gets me.

With all due respect 1500 rounds is not that much its about as much shooting as you would do in a week long pistol class. The 357 sig is a fair round but its nothing special. Its also hard on the guns. Talk to New Mexico State Police about issues they are having with parts breaking. Also Jam is something you put on toast they are called malfunctions.
Pat

[Beware Owner]

If I was a scientist I might be able to tell you why but as soon as I venture a reasonable guess all the hate-.357sig caliber Nazis will be jumping down my throat.

I remember seeing the info you refer to and linking it in a few posts on various threads. There is a whole lot more to learn about caliber, ballistics, power, velocity, etc ... and how it all merges than we know today.

I read that the 9 X 25 Dillon is a real screamer of a round. If somebody knows why that round is so wicked then maybe they can explain the power behind the .357sig and the 10mm.

Keeping It Simple, Soldier: those are the 2 cartridges that knock the gel down and break the planks because they hit hard. Doesn't take a PhD to figure that one out! :supergrin:

[PillBox]

Someone earlier stated that they felt polymer-framed pistols would hold up better with the .357 Sig round than would comparable aluminum-framed pistols. Whoever made that comment, could you please elaborate whether this is opinion on your part or do you have some evidence to support it?

I'm interested in this because I am thinking about a .357 Sig either in the HK P2000 or the standard Sig-Sauer P229.

PillBox

[Alaskapopo]

Someone earlier stated that they felt polymer-framed pistols would hold up better with the .357 Sig round than would comparable aluminum-framed pistols. Whoever made that comment, could you please elaborate whether this is opinion on your part or do you have some evidence to support it?

I'm interested in this because I am thinking about a .357 Sig either in the HK P2000 or the standard Sig-Sauer P229.

PillBox
In general polimer framed pistols hold up much better than alluminum guns. Alluminum does not hold up that well compared to steel framed and polimer framed guns. For example Chuck Taylors Glock 17 has more than 150000 rounds through it and its still running strong. Sig 226's are only expected to last 20000 rounds before the frame rails crack (according to sig) There were a lot of Sig 226's that had their frames crack in service with the feds. A particular batch of sigs had their frames crack as early as 5000 rounds but that was a problem that was later fixed. The 229 is an excellent pistol but being alluminum I would not expect it to last as long as the HK. However it may not matter to you as the average shooter does not put that many rounds through his or her gun.
Pat

[unit1069]

Keeping It Simple, Soldier: those are the 2 cartridges that knock the gel down and break the planks because they hit hard. Doesn't take a PhD to figure that one out! :supergrin:

Yes, I knew that .357sig and 10mm were the only two calibers that knocked the gelatin blocks off the table. I was only answering your original question.

I'm not sure the .40 even hits the 500 ft/lbs mark. Can you tell me why it is that the Sig and the 10 are the only ones to knock down the gelatin blocks and break the wooden planks that hold them down?

If brute power was the sole reason I think this round should also knock the gel block off the table.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=646126

This is why I wrote that caliber, velocity, etc ... all have to be taken into account before any definite answer is given. The 9X25 Dillon certainly should be able to kick the gel block off the table.

But "because they hit hard" is a pretty good general answer, I'll agree.

[unit1069]

In general polimer framed pistols hold up much better than alluminum guns. Alluminum does not hold up that well compared to steel framed and polimer framed guns.

I was told the same thing by several gun dealers and quite a few experienced shooters. According to them polymer is excellent because it has a certain amount of flex and can absorb the shock better.

[hogship]

One small reason why the 357sig doesn't do as well with gun enthusiasts, is that bottleneck case......straightwall cases are much easier to deal with for reloading.

hog

[HiVelSword]

I have ample personal experience with the 357 sig cartridge. I owned 8 different pistols at one time chambered for the round.
Pat

Funny then that you are the only person that I've heard on all the gun forums stating how it's less reliable.

And why would you own 8 pistols at one time chambered for this less reliable than others cartridge?

But I guess you know more than everyone else. Oh, I forgot. It's YOUR personal experience that seems to fly in the face of everyone elses.:upeyes:

BTW, nice SIG. Like to tout your credentials, huh?

[Beware Owner]

then again, the whole foot/lbs argument is secondary at best to 12" minimum penetration + expansion. the 9mm 147 grain HST meets or exceeds both criteria with a mere 325 ft/lbs at the muzzle...

if foot/lbs were of greater importance, the 158 grain .38 special lead hp round probably never would have taken off

The hollow points are designed to do that at it's designated speed. The Sig's impact is greater, regardless.

[Beware Owner]

Yes, I knew that .357sig and 10mm were the only two calibers that knocked the gelatin blocks off the table. I was only answering your original question.



If brute power was the sole reason I think this round should also knock the gel block off the table.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=646126

This is why I wrote that caliber, velocity, etc ... all have to be taken into account before any definite answer is given. The 9X25 Dillon certainly should be able to kick the gel block off the table.

But "because they hit hard" is a pretty good general answer, I'll agree.

You know, I really, really like the 10mm, .357 Sig, 9x23 Winchester, and 9x25 Dillon, not because they have a large or small bullet, but because when you hit, you HIT. Fat and slow will not be a great impacter or penetrator, so you'll have to get it running faster. The very next pistol I want to get is a 9x23, as it now fares better than the Sig, IMO.

[sigcalcatrant]

Not my opinion its fact. All bottle neck pistol rounds are harder to make feed reliably than tapered wall cases like the 9mm or straight wall cases like the 40. I am happy that your 357 sig BHP worked but that is the exception not the norm. The magazines need to be tweaked and worked over to reliably feed 357 sig rounds.
PatI have 5, 2 SIG's and 3 Glocks. My Glocks have been fired with all existing magazines and followers, including .40S&W magazines. All have been 100% reliable. They're the norm, not the exception. No tweaking necesarry.

[sigcalcatrant]

I was interested in getting one of the USP Compacts in the .357 Sig. However, I'm not sure I want to do it, because it's almost TOO CHEAP. Is the 357 Sig caliber dying or almost dead?To sum it all up and to and to answer your question: no, it's alive and well.

[carbofan21]

You know, I really, really like the 10mm, .357 Sig, 9x23 Winchester, and 9x25 Dillon, not because they have a large or small bullet, but because when you hit, you HIT. Fat and slow will not be a great impacter or penetrator, so you'll have to get it running faster. The very next pistol I want to get is a 9x23, as it now fares better than the Sig, IMO.

actually, depth of penetration is proportional to a bullet's sectional density. a standard pressure .38 special 158 grain lead hollowpoint, with about 250 foot/lbs of energy, will very likely penetrate deeper than a full house 125 grain .357 magnum with 500+ foot/lbs of energy. do you know why?

also, a standard pressure .38 special 158 grain lead hollowpoint will likely penetrate deeper than a .38 special +p 158 grain lead hollowpoint, because the standard pressure round will likely not expand, or at least not to the degree that the +p round will expand. so impact speed can work both ways..

[carbofan21]

I have 5, 2 SIG's and 3 Glocks. My Glocks have been fired with all existing magazines and followers, including .40S&W magazines. All have been 100% reliable. They're the norm, not the exception. No tweaking necesarry.

for what it's worth, when i had my g33 barrel for my g27, it ran 100% with my g27 magazines through several hundred rounds of 357 ammo fired. it fed great!

i did have about a half dozen FTF's (nose-up) with the .40 rounds through the first 250 or so rounds straight out of the box

[cyberiad]

In general polimer framed pistols hold up much better than alluminum guns. Alluminum does not hold up that well compared to steel framed and polimer framed guns. For example Chuck Taylors Glock 17 has more than 150000 rounds through it and its still running strong. Sig 226's are only expected to last 20000 rounds before the frame rails crack (according to sig)


Given proper maintenance and a P226 with serial number above 160000 (ie, later than the mid-80's) the rails won't be a problem.

At least one Secret Service P229 has over 100k documented rounds through it.

Do Sig (or any manufacturer) currently assign a maximum lifetime in number of rounds to any of their products?

[Alaskapopo]

Given proper maintenance and a P226 with serial number above 160000 (ie, later than the mid-80's) the rails won't be a problem.

At least one Secret Service P229 has over 100k documented rounds through it.

Do Sig (or any manufacturer) currently assign a maximum lifetime in number of rounds to any of their products?
One of the reasons the FBI dropped the Sig was due to issues with durability. Over 100K in a sig 229 sorry I would have to see it to believe it.
Pat

[WiskyT]

Can someone please explain why the bottleneck 357Sig is more reliable than the tapered 9mm? They are the same size on their respective same ends.

As for a gun being good because LE agencies by them, there is no relationship. Agencies buy guns because they are beuracracies. We had perfectly good guns that we were forced to turn in for guns that didn't work because some slug got paid to secure grant money for them. They thrive on spending tax dollars. In order to secure tax dollars to spend, they need a reason. If they have 45's the reason will be that they need a diiferent caliber becuase they have a hard time qulifying everyone with the big grip. If they have 9mm, they will need to switch to something "bigger" because they are being "outgunned" on the streets.

In ten years all the 357Sig agencies will be switching to 45's and the 45 agnecies will be switching to 357Sig.

[AustinTx]

Can someone please explain why the bottleneck 357Sig is more reliable than the tapered 9mm? They are the same size on their respective same ends.

As for a gun being good because LE agencies by them, there is no relationship. Agencies buy guns because they are beuracracies. We had perfectly good guns that we were forced to turn in for guns that didn't work because some slug got paid to secure grant money for them. They thrive on spending tax dollars. In order to secure tax dollars to spend, they need a reason. If they have 45's the reason will be that they need a diiferent caliber becuase they have a hard time qulifying everyone with the big grip. If they have 9mm, they will need to switch to something "bigger" because they are being "outgunned" on the streets.

In ten years all the 357Sig agencies will be switching to 45's and the 45 agnecies will be switching to 357Sig.



The bottle neck cartridge is more reliable at feeding because you are trying to put a bullet which is .355 in. in diameter into a hole that is .400 in. in diameter. Can you just visualize trying to drop a small ball into a larger hole than the size of the ball? The smaller the ball and the larger the hole, will make it easier to put the ball where you want it to go. It's the exact same principle as pouring a liquid from one bottle to another with the same size openings. Everyone knows a funnel helps considerably here. It acts like a funnel except you're moving cartridges from a mag. into the chamber. The 40 & 45 aren't tapered and the 9mm is, not much. With these you're putting an object into roughly the same size hole.

I'm not saying that the 9, 40 & 45 will not feed. I have never had a stoppage, of any kind with the 357 Sig and I cannot say the same for the 45ACP and to a lessor extent with the 9mm.

They are not the same size on their respective ends. The 357 Sig is the same size as a 40S&W on the head end. The one with the primer.
AustinTx

[cyberiad]

One of the reasons the FBI dropped the Sig was due to issues with durability. Over 100K in a sig 229 sorry I would have to see it to believe it.
Pat

The FBI might have gotten rid of Sigs for a number of other reasons too. The Seals got a lot of service out of theirs. 6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't think durability is a real problem with Sigs but they do have to be properly maintained. I've personally fired a P226 with 80k rounds through it (not all on the original barrel though). That one I am sure of because I know the owner.

[AustinTx]

I don't think that I will wear my G-31 357Sig out. I take it out every 4 years and fire 50 rounds to qualify for my CHL.
At

[WiskyT]

They are not the same size on their respective ends. The 357 Sig is the same size as a 40S&W on the head end. The one with the primer

The 9mm has the same size case head, and therefore chamber opening, as the 40SW. If you measure them or look at a dimensional drawing of the cases, you'll see that. Of course the 9mm and 357Sig have the same size bullet on the other end. If anything, the 9mm uses pointier bullets, even in JHP's, than the truncated cone profile of the 357Sig. The theoreticle argument just doesn't hold up.

In practice, I agree with you that they all are reliable given a good pistol. Take a Glock, Sig or any other good pistol in any of the calibers mentioned and any typical Ranger Gold Dot etc and you'll get 100% reliability. I don't think the 357 Sig is any less reliable, I just don't buy into the arguement that it is somehow inherently more reliable.

When it comes to handloading, there is actually more that can go wrong with the 357Sig round. But enough people reload it regularly with no problems to show that if it is done carefully it will work well.

[Alaskapopo]

The bottle neck cartridge is more reliable at feeding because you are trying to put a bullet which is .355 in. in diameter into a hole that is .400 in. in diameter. Can you just visualize trying to drop a small ball into a larger hole than the size of the ball? The smaller the ball and the larger the hole, will make it easier to put the ball where you want it to go. It's the exact same principle as pouring a liquid from one bottle to another with the same size openings. Everyone knows a funnel helps considerably here. It acts like a funnel except you're moving cartridges from a mag. into the chamber. The 40 & 45 aren't tapered and the 9mm is, not much. With these you're putting an object into roughly the same size hole.

I'm not saying that the 9, 40 & 45 will not feed. I have never had a stoppage, of any kind with the 357 Sig and I cannot say the same for the 45ACP and to a lessor extent with the 9mm.

They are not the same size on their respective ends. The 357 Sig is the same size as a 40S&W on the head end. The one with the primer.
AustinTx


The tapered case 9mm is a far more reliable feeder than the 357 sig.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

The FBI might have gotten rid of Sigs for a number of other reasons too. The Seals got a lot of service out of theirs. 6 of one, half dozen of another. I don't think durability is a real problem with Sigs but they do have to be properly maintained. I've personally fired a P226 with 80k rounds through it (not all on the original barrel though). That one I am sure of because I know the owner.
Really did he keep a log on the rounds fired?
Pat

[AustinTx]

The 9mm has the same size case head, and therefore chamber opening, as the 40SW. If you measure them or look at a dimensional drawing of the cases, you'll see that. Of course the 9mm and 357Sig have the same size bullet on the other end. If anything, the 9mm uses pointier bullets, even in JHP's, than the truncated cone profile of the 357Sig. The theoreticle argument just doesn't hold up.

In practice, I agree with you that they all are reliable given a good pistol. Take a Glock, Sig or any other good pistol in any of the calibers mentioned and any typical Ranger Gold Dot etc and you'll get 100% reliability. I don't think the 357 Sig is any less reliable, I just don't buy into the arguement that it is somehow inherently more reliable.

When it comes to handloading, there is actually more that can go wrong with the 357Sig round. But enough people reload it regularly with no problems to show that if it is done carefully it will work well.


If you can't understand how a funnel works, I feel sorry for you. I don't really care what you think of the 357 vs 9mm. They are not the same. What does handloading have to do with the feed reliability? When the old Broomhandle Mauser was around in 30 Mauser caliber, they didn't have reliability problems. The 30 Mauser is a bottleneck.
At

[AustinTx]

The tapered case 9mm is a far more reliable feeder than the 357 sig.
Pat


I would like to read your proof.
At

[WiskyT]

If you can't understand how a funnel works, I feel sorry for you. I don't really care what you think of the 357 vs 9mm. They are not the same. What does handloading have to do with the feed reliability? When the old Broomhandle Mauser was around in 30 Mauser caliber, they didn't have reliability problems. The 30 Mauser is a bottleneck.
At


I understand how a funnel works. The 9mm case head is the same size as the 40SW and 357SIG. Why don't you look at the drawings, measure them with a caliper, or see that they use the same shellholder for reloading?

Handloading has to do with feed reliability because the 357Sig headspaces on the shoulder. If the shoulder isn't sized properly, which is easy to mess up, the headpsace isn't correct and the gun won't feed reliably.

[Alaskapopo]

I would like to read your proof.
At

Proof like I said before Austin its called personal experience. Also if that is not enough for you in 1997 DOJ did a study on duty weapons available at the time. 85% of the then available 9mm and 45 acp pistols passed their tests only 65% of the 40 sw and 357 sig pistols pased their reliablity and safety standards. Most 357 sig pistols feed just fine. But it is not an inherrently more reliable round. In fact it takes more design effort in the magazines to make them work with the cartridge. Its not the feeding the round into the chamber that is the issued (where the funner takes place) its the feeding of the rounds in the magazine. The front portion of the round is not supported and wants to nose dive when the slide pushes on the back of the cartridge as its being fed into the chamber. That is why some guns like the Sig 239 have special magazines for the 357 sig that are different from the 40 mags.

I had the same issue with a Sig 220 chambered in 400 Corbon. I have extensively shot and played with the 357 sig probably more than you will ever dream about shooting.

Let me turn this around on you. Where is your PROOF that the 357 sig feeds more reliably. Show me your studies and experiements where shot a Glock 17 and a Glock 31 side by side for thousands of rounds counting the malfunctions. Get back to me on that one.
Pat

[hawk]

The 9mm case head is the same size as the 40SW and 357SIG. Why don't you look at the drawings, measure them with a caliper, or see that they use the same shellholder for reloading?

9mm case head = .394"
.40/.357 SIG case head = .424"

Ummmm......

[Tailgate]

You've gotta be kidding. No, the .357 SIG is not dying. If anything, you'll see it more and more being issued by law enforcement agencies as extensive research has shown it has the best stopping power without over-penetration (especially in Speer Gold Dot ammo). The .40 S&W is close ballistically, but the .357 SIG has the edge.

No, it is not dying.

[BuckyP]

I am a fan of .357 sig, .38 super and 9 x 23. It is a shame they don't get more interest. All are powerful and accurate.

Probably has something to do with the fact that the .357 Sig fits in 9mm/.40 framed guns, where as the .38 super and 9x23 require a larger .45 frame size gun. Kinda why the .40 is more popular than the 10mm.

[BuckyP]

The caliber is far from dead. It might not be as popular as other calibers but it has it's fans. I myself own 3 of them. A P229, P239, P2340 and a H&K P2000. Plus with just a barrel swap you can have a .40 S&W too.

Jrp99

:headscratch:

[WiskyT]

9mm case head = .394"
.40/.357 SIG case head = .424"

Ummmm......


Yes that would be three HUNDREDTHS of an inch. Ummmm.....

[chewybaca67]

I love the 357 Sig. As I've said before many times, I like 9mm too, but I don't know any 9mm, 9mm+p, 9mm+p+, etc, that can "safely" put a 124 grain hp at 1530 fps. That's faster than some 125 grain 357 Mag factory ammo in a 4" revolver. Also, reloading is where 357 Sig shines. 9mm boolits are cheap, once fired brass is free, for plinking 40 S&W can be resized to 357 Sig but be sure to check yo' chamber and load mild. My 357 Sig LWD 5" barrel I use in G-35 seems to chamber rounds more on the shoulder than on the rim. Wheather it was intended or not, I likes it. I some milk jugs filled with h2o last week and the 124 nasic cheapo Rem HP went through 3 jugs (one was a half gallon milk carton) and at 20 feet got all wet and such. Very explossive and cool. I can certainly understand if the price of ammo and availability if one doesn't handload. But if I was a beginning relaoder, I would scrounge up all the 357 Sig brass I could cuz it's cheaper to load for the 40 S&W and 45 ACP.

[hawk]

Yes that would be three HUNDREDTHS of an inch. Ummmm.....

Have you ever tried to chamber a .40 in a gun with a 9mm breech face? Also if you're using a .40 shell holder for 9mm casings I'd be surprised if you're not popping the case off the shell holder on the downstroke.

[HiVelSword]

I would like to read your proof.
At


Forget it AustinTx. Doesn't matter how reliable our .357 SIG's are. Because he owned 8 at one time and because he's too SWAT for us, he is right and we are wrong.

It's less reliable due to the bottleneck design of the cartridge. Just because ours have never failed or nosedived means absolutely squat. I mean, have you looked at Alaskapopo's SIG and his bio? With credentials like that there's no way he can be wrong. His "personal experience" should undoubtedly be law and who are we to say otherwise?

And don't bother looking for that DOJ report he mentioned. I googled it and couldn't find anything. It's probably not available to us not-so-elite folk anyway.

[HiVelSword]

You've gotta be kidding. No, the .357 SIG is not dying. If anything, you'll see it more and more being issued by law enforcement agencies as extensive research has shown it has the best stopping power without over-penetration (especially in Speer Gold Dot ammo). The .40 S&W is close ballistically, but the .357 SIG has the edge.

No, it is not dying.

But haven't you heard? It's not as reliable as 9mm.

[WiskyT]

Have you ever tried to chamber a .40 in a gun with a 9mm breech face? Also if you're using a .40 shell holder for 9mm casings I'd be surprised if you're not popping the case off the shell holder on the downstroke.


Lee #19 shellholder for both of them. That's the way they come and that's the way I've loaded thousands of 9mm rounds. Go to the Lee sight and look under service parts for pistol dies.

I've also shot a few hundred 9mm's in a Glock 22 and we all know it is a routine conversion done by many GTalk members.

I haven't tried to fit a 40 round on my G17 breach. I figure with a big enough hammer I could get it to fit. What's the point? I've had 9mm rounds that wouldn't fit in my G17 breach.

If you want to believe that 0.03" is responsible for some inherent increase in reliability, and ignore the part about the pointier 9mm bullet, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, all of these rounds are equally reliable. If I bought any gun chambered for them and they didn't work, I'd send them back. Therefore I always get 100% reliability with any gun I own.

The only gun I ever sent back was my wife's KT P32, 4 times in a row for the same problem, but now it's right.

[chewybaca67]

Alaska's experience is valid. Or, at least I value it. Opinions don't hold sqwat/no wieght. Experience, that has some wieght. Most factory ammo guys, with the noted exceptions in mind like Carbon and DT and a few others, don't load to hot.....or even near hot. When I shoot 357 Sig barrel in my G-35 I put a 22 lb recoil spring in it cuz I heard the damage/shorter life of New Mexico state Police issue G-31s with regular 17 lb stock recoil slides. Me? I just like shooting a bunch of deferent calibers and I'll carry what I feel like from day to day, month to month. They each do they job if needed. Y'all just need to lighten up some, we discussing yer' weeners, just ammo for cryin' out load.

[HiVelSword]

Alaska's experience is valid. Or, at least I value it. Opinions don't hold sqwat/no wieght. Experience, that has some wieght. Most factory ammo guys, with the noted exceptions in mind like Carbon and DT and a few others, don't load to hot.....or even near hot. When I shoot 357 Sig barrel in my G-35 I put a 22 lb recoil spring in it cuz I heard the damage/shorter life of New Mexico state Police issue G-31s with regular 17 lb stock recoil slides. Me? I just like shooting a bunch of deferent calibers and I'll carry what I feel like from day to day, month to month. They each do they job if needed. Y'all just need to lighten up some, we discussing yer' weeners, just ammo for cryin' out load.

So in your experience have you had feed issues with your converted 35?

I've only owned HALF as many 357 SIG pistols as AKpp at one time but I've never had a single malf for any of them. Does my experience count?

[hawk]

Lee #19 shellholder for both of them.

That's fine for Lee Products. RCBS lists a #27 for .40 and a #16 for 9mm. I'm only challenging your assertion that 9mm and .40/.357 SIG have the same case head diameter. It may only be .03" but they are definitely not the same diameter as you stated in post #110. I couldn't care less if someone thinks .357 SIG is less reliable than 9mm. I don't own a .357 SIG and don't plan to either.

Yeah, get a big hammer and make a .40 fit in a 9mm breech face. That sounds like a plan alright.

[chewybaca67]

So in your experience have you had feed issues with your converted 35?

I've only owned HALF as many 357 SIG pistols as AKpp at one time but I've never had a single malf for any of them. Does my experience count?

Sure it does. I never had any issues with my coversion set up G-35/LWD barrel conversion. But this is the only 357 Sig set I've ever had and it's only shot 1 box of factory ammo (for chrony comparison to my homerolled loads). So my experience is very limitted.

[just for fun]

like the round,but it is sloooow to reload!

[glockobsession]

Deleted: I'm an idiot.

[WiskyT]

That's fine for Lee Products. RCBS lists a #27 for .40 and a #16 for 9mm. I'm only challenging your assertion that 9mm and .40/.357 SIG have the same case head diameter. It may only be .03" but they are definitely not the same diameter as you stated in post #110. I couldn't care less if someone thinks .357 SIG is less reliable than 9mm. I don't own a .357 SIG and don't plan to either.

Yeah, get a big hammer and make a .40 fit in a 9mm breech face. That sounds like a plan alright.



That the three hundredths of an inch difference is insignificant is proven by the fact that Lee uses the SAME shellholder for both. They use the same shellholder because they are the same size. If 0.03" of an inch mattered one way or the other, they wouldn't use the same shellholder. Your challenge is met.

I don't own a 357Sig either. One more caliber to bother with. I'm at the point where I wish I could wave a magic wand and all my guns would shoot one caliber

The part about the hammer was a joke. Apparently you didn't pick up on that.

[HiVelSword]

Sure it does. I never had any issues with my coversion set up G-35/LWD barrel conversion. But this is the only 357 Sig set I've ever had and it's only shot 1 box of factory ammo (for chrony comparison to my homerolled loads). So my experience is very limitted.

You must get some decent velocity from the longer barrel. A sweet setup indeed. :cool:

[AustinTx]

Proof like I said before Austin its called personal experience. Also if that is not enough for you in 1997 DOJ did a study on duty weapons available at the time. 85% of the then available 9mm and 45 acp pistols passed their tests only 65% of the 40 sw and 357 sig pistols pased their reliablity and safety standards. Most 357 sig pistols feed just fine. But it is not an inherrently more reliable round. In fact it takes more design effort in the magazines to make them work with the cartridge. Its not the feeding the round into the chamber that is the issued (where the funner takes place) its the feeding of the rounds in the magazine. The front portion of the round is not supported and wants to nose dive when the slide pushes on the back of the cartridge as its being fed into the chamber. That is why some guns like the Sig 239 have special magazines for the 357 sig that are different from the 40 mags.

I had the same issue with a Sig 220 chambered in 400 Corbon. I have extensively shot and played with the 357 sig probably more than you will ever dream about shooting.

Let me turn this around on you. Where is your PROOF that the 357 sig feeds more reliably. Show me your studies and experiements where shot a Glock 17 and a Glock 31 side by side for thousands of rounds counting the malfunctions. Get back to me on that one.
Pat


Same as you, personal experience.
At

[SDDL-UP]

That round is an intimidator with impressive knock down factors. I like it because it out guns the Boyz from the Hood normally. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

You're kidding me right?



I'm not sure the .40 even hits the 500 ft/lbs mark. Can you tell me why it is that the Sig and the 10 are the only ones to knock down the gelatin blocks and break the wooden planks that hold them down?

Until we can see scientifically controlled test, side by side with all the load data and controlled pieces of wooden plank, this comment doesn't mean much. You've just got to standardize procedures and see all the data before making assumptions.


I have shot the 357 Sig and it does have some things going for it, perhaps a little less muzzle flip than the 40 S&W, but quite a bit more flash. I think the flatter shooting argument is a joke (it's a HANDGUN, meant for SHORT DISTANCES), but it's a fine round, really, just not ever going to approach the numbers of the 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. I'd rather have a 38 Super because I'd get increased capacity. I'm not sure bottle neck cartridges make much sense in a handgun to tell you the truth - because you're giving up bullet diameter and capacity.

[AustinTx]

I understand how a funnel works. The 9mm case head is the same size as the 40SW and 357SIG. Why don't you look at the drawings, measure them with a caliper, or see that they use the same shellholder for reloading?

Handloading has to do with feed reliability because the 357Sig headspaces on the shoulder. If the shoulder isn't sized properly, which is easy to mess up, the headpsace isn't correct and the gun won't feed reliably.


You are the most hard headed thing that I have ever crossed paths with.

You have specified the very cheapest of reloading equipment to prove a 9mm and 40 S&W have the same size case head. Yes, Lee shell holder is the cheapest gauge you could have picked.

I thought everyone knew that the 357 Sig started life as a necked down 40 S&W which was a shortened 10mm. Remember the Bren 10? Now, you just continue to think a 357 Sig. has all the same dimensions as a 9mm. My eyes are good enough that I can hold them side by side and tell they aren't the same size. How on earth do you think two cartridges that you claim are identical ever made it to market with any following at all? I have carried my G31 for about 7 years with 40 S&W mags and never had a misfeed of any kind. After the Clinton Crime Bill mag. limit sunset I was finally able to get hi-cap 357 mags. They work just like the 40's did. I really wonder why, according to you that I couldn't have used G-17 mags.

For all who believe that straight sided cases feed better than a bottle neck, explain why the US military round has been a bottle necked round, since the 45-70.

I am beginning to think you are just another troll. I'm totally done with this, it's been a total waste of time.

At

[Beware Owner]

You're kidding me right?





Until we can see scientifically controlled test, side by side with all the load data and controlled pieces of wooden plank, this comment doesn't mean much. You've just got to standardize procedures and see all the data before making assumptions.


I have shot the 357 Sig and it does have some things going for it, perhaps a little less muzzle flip than the 40 S&W, but quite a bit more flash. I think the flatter shooting argument is a joke (it's a HANDGUN, meant for SHORT DISTANCES), but it's a fine round, really, just not ever going to approach the numbers of the 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. I'd rather have a 38 Super because I'd get increased capacity. I'm not sure bottle neck cartridges make much sense in a handgun to tell you the truth - because you're giving up bullet diameter and capacity.

I know that when ammolab was still up, there were no assumptions of the broken planks or the test medium sent to the ground. When I was researching what caliber to purchase, I had another workstation where I had the tests stored. Too bad I can't produce them now, but the 10mm and the Sig will put the smack down.

[USDefender]

I was interested in getting one of the USP Compacts in the .357 Sig. However, I'm not sure I want to do it, because it's almost TOO CHEAP. Is the 357 Sig caliber dying or almost dead?

All I'll say is, how popular is the .41 magnum, now?

It's still popular in some circles, but it can't really be considered a 'popular carry caliber'. And believe me, I say this with much regret.

I was a huge, HUGE fan of the .357magnum, so I was ecstatic when I found out 'they' were coming out with an auto caliber that had the same or similar ballistics and bullet performance. I also figured more US police departments would have taken a liking to it than actually have...

Now that I look at it, the reason they probably havent's because half the current police force wasn't even alive when the .357magnum wheel gun was the first choice of American law enforcement. :upeyes:

[BOM]

Anyone have a link to the NMSP Glock 31 problems?

[chewybaca67]

Anyone have a link to the NMSP Glock 31 problems?

No. I read it in one of the Gun rags about the G-31 and NM State police.

[chewybaca67]

You must get some decent velocity from the longer barrel. A sweet setup indeed. :cool:

Yeah, that extra inch helps out alot. I could've loaded 'em to an average of 1570-ish fps but decided I'd back down some. LWD has 6" 357 Sig barrel out now. That would be fun just for 'chits and giggles..........manly giggles I mean.

[Alaskapopo]

You are the most hard headed thing that I have ever crossed paths with.

You have specified the very cheapest of reloading equipment to prove a 9mm and 40 S&W have the same size case head. Yes, Lee shell holder is the cheapest gauge you could have picked.

I thought everyone knew that the 357 Sig started life as a necked down 40 S&W which was a shortened 10mm. Remember the Bren 10? Now, you just continue to think a 357 Sig. has all the same dimensions as a 9mm. My eyes are good enough that I can hold them side by side and tell they aren't the same size. How on earth do you think two cartridges that you claim are identical ever made it to market with any following at all? I have carried my G31 for about 7 years with 40 S&W mags and never had a misfeed of any kind. After the Clinton Crime Bill mag. limit sunset I was finally able to get hi-cap 357 mags. They work just like the 40's did. I really wonder why, according to you that I couldn't have used G-17 mags.

For all who believe that straight sided cases feed better than a bottle neck, explain why the US military round has been a bottle necked round, since the 45-70.

I am beginning to think you are just another troll. I'm totally done with this, it's been a total waste of time.

At

Double stack rifle magazines feed differently than double stack pistol mags. Rifle mags do not taper into a single position feed but rather feed from each side. Rifle mags are curved and each bullet is supported by the one beneth in. That is not the case with the 357 sig is a straight pistol mag.
Pat

[AustinTx]

All I'll say is, how popular is the .41 magnum, now?

It's still popular in some circles, but it can't really be considered a 'popular carry caliber'. And believe me, I say this with much regret.

I was a huge, HUGE fan of the .357magnum, so I was ecstatic when I found out 'they' were coming out with an auto caliber that had the same or similar ballistics and bullet performance. I also figured more US police departments would have taken a liking to it than actually have...

Now that I look at it, the reason they probably havent's because half the current police force wasn't even alive when the .357magnum wheel gun was the first choice of American law enforcement. :upeyes:


I don't remember the 41 Mag. ever being popular. Folks couldn't figure what it was for, when it was introduced.
At
At

[Cobra64]

In general polimer framed pistols hold up much better than alluminum guns. Alluminum does not hold up that well compared to steel framed and polimer framed guns. For example Chuck Taylors Glock 17 has more than 150000 rounds through it and its still running strong. Sig 226's are only expected to last 20000 rounds before the frame rails crack (according to sig) There were a lot of Sig 226's that had their frames crack in service with the feds. A particular batch of sigs had their frames crack as early as 5000 rounds but that was a problem that was later fixed. The 229 is an excellent pistol but being alluminum I would not expect it to last as long as the HK. However it may not matter to you as the average shooter does not put that many rounds through his or her gun.
Pat

With few exceptions, you have not made a statement on this thread that has any substantiating evidence. I asked you to provide FACTUAL documented evidence re the .357 and you came back with a lame excuse citing personal experience.

Ever heard of the Secret Service? The agents carry aluminum alloy frame P239 in .357 Sig.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/P239/P239-USSecretService.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/P239/P239-USSSs.jpg


Another doozy: "The 229 is an excellent pistol but being alluminum I would not expect it to last as long as the HK."

Ever heard of stainless steel? My stainless steel P229ST is chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 Sig. Well over 5,000 rounds and it hasdn't cracked. Must be defective huh?
My firearms instructor / Sig armorer has over 60,000 rounds through his aluminum alloy 9mm 226.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P229/P1000604.jpg




"Sig 226's are only expected to last 20000 rounds before the frame rails crack (according to sig)"

My stainless steel P226ST 9mm has over 23,000 rounds through it. Furthermore, there's an outfit called the United States Navy SEALS. Ever heard of them?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P226/P1000564.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P226/P1000567.jpg


Have any more children's stories? As far as I'm concerned, you've really lost all credibility on this thread.

.

[Alaskapopo]

With few exceptions, you have not made a statement on this thread that has any substantiating evidence. I asked you to provide FACTUAL documented evidence re the .357 and you came back with a lame excuse citing personal experience.

Ever heard of the Secret Service? The agents carry aluminum alloy frame P239 in .357 Sig.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/P239/P239-USSecretService.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/P239/P239-USSSs.jpg


Another doozy: "The 229 is an excellent pistol but being alluminum I would not expect it to last as long as the HK."

Ever heard of stainless steel? My stainless steel P229ST is chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .357 Sig. Well over 5,000 rounds and it hasdn't cracked. Must be defective huh?
My firearms instructor / Sig armorer has over 60,000 rounds through his aluminum alloy 9mm 226.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P229/P1000604.jpg




"Sig 226's are only expected to last 20000 rounds before the frame rails crack (according to sig)"

My stainless steel P226ST 9mm has over 23,000 rounds through it. Furthermore, there's an outfit called the United States Navy SEALS. Ever heard of them?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P226/P1000564.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Sig%20Sauer%20Guns/Marks%20Sigs/P226/P1000567.jpg


Have any more children's stories? As far as I'm concerned, you've really lost all credibility on this thread.

.
For starters rather than throwing personal insults grow up and argue the points at hand. We are talking about alluminum framed sigs and the 357 sig cartridge. We are not talking about Stainless Steel framed sigs (nice diversion) nor are we talking about the 9mm sigs the SEALS use. (again stay on topic.) Frankly I could care less what credibility I have with a business analyst who only plays with guns at the range in his spare time.

Pat

[Cobra64]

The tapered case 9mm is a far more reliable feeder than the 357 sig.
PatTapered case 9mm? Are you on drugs? I don't think you've ever seen either round in person and got confused reading a book.

Maybe this will help.

The round on the left is a Speer JHP 9mm.
The round on the right is a Speer JHP .357 Sig.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/Speer9mm124gr.jpghttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/Speer-357Sig-125gr.jpg



.

[carbofan21]

y a w n

[Cobra64]

Proof like I said before Austin its called personal experience. Also if that is not enough for you in 1997 DOJ did a study on duty weapons available at the time. 85% of the then available 9mm and 45 acp pistols passed their tests only 65% of the 40 sw and 357 sig pistols pased their reliablity and safety standards. Most 357 sig pistols feed just fine. But it is not an inherrently more reliable round. In fact it takes more design effort in the magazines to make them work with the cartridge. Its not the feeding the round into the chamber that is the issued (where the funner takes place) its the feeding of the rounds in the magazine. The front portion of the round is not supported and wants to nose dive when the slide pushes on the back of the cartridge as its being fed into the chamber. That is why some guns like the Sig 239 have special magazines for the 357 sig that are different from the 40 mags.

I had the same issue with a Sig 220 chambered in 400 Corbon. I have extensively shot and played with the 357 sig probably more than you will ever dream about shooting.

Let me turn this around on you. Where is your PROOF that the 357 sig feeds more reliably. Show me your studies and experiements where shot a Glock 17 and a Glock 31 side by side for thousands of rounds counting the malfunctions. Get back to me on that one.
Pat

I guess those AR15s are real jam-o-matics too. Huh?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/AHDY83253.jpg


.

[Cobra64]

But haven't you heard? It's not as reliable as 9mm.HiVel, I've noticed that you and I have picked up on the same goof-ball posters making wild unsubstntiated assertions. Alaskapoop failed to supply evidence supporting any of his statements.

.

[carbofan21]

Cobra64
Tapered case 9mm? Are you on drugs? I don't think you've ever seen either round in person and got confused reading a book.

if you have some calipers, measure each end of the 9mm case. let us know what you find

[carbofan21]

or an easier test is to roll a 9mm on its side on a flat table. will it roll straight, or is it an arc?

try the same test with a .40 and a 357 sig

[Alaskapopo]

Tapered case 9mm? Are you on drugs? I don't think you've ever seen either round in person and got confused reading a book.

Maybe this will help.

The round on the left is a Speer JHP 9mm.
The round on the right is a Speer JHP .357 Sig.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/Speer9mm124gr.jpghttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/Speer-357Sig-125gr.jpg



.

If you did not know the 9mm is a tapered case you are not even worth debating with as your knowledge base is so lacking.

The base of the 9mm case is .391 and it tapers to .360 at the case mouth. It is a wedge shaped round that is more reliable than the 357 sig.
Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I guess those AR15s are real jam-o-matics too. Huh?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/Ammo/AHDY83253.jpg


.

I explained the difference in double stack rifle mags that are curved vs pistol magazines that taper into a single column. You should probably just shut up now before people realize just how much of an idiot you really are. Anyway I am done with you its obvious you are a troll who has no knowledge of the topics being discussed in these threads.
Pat

[Cobra64]

For starters rather than throwing personal insults grow up and argue the points at hand. We are talking about alluminum framed sigs and the 357 sig cartridge. We are not talking about Stainless Steel framed sigs (nice diversion) nor are we talking about the 9mm sigs the SEALS use. (again stay on topic.) Frankly I could care less what credibility I have with a business analyst who only plays with guns at the range in his spare time.

Pat

United States Secret Service
Sig P239 aluminum alloy frame
.357 Sig


.

[Cobra64]

or an easier test is to roll a 9mm on its side on a flat table. will it roll straight, or is it an arc?

try the same test with a .40 and a 357 sigI'm aware of that. My point point was the necked .357 Sig round.

.

[carbofan21]

I'm aware of that. My point point was the necked .357 Sig round.

.

taper and bottleneck are two completely different things

[Alaskapopo]

United States Secret Service
Sig P239 aluminum alloy frame
.357 Sig


.

Actually the Secret Service uses the Sig 229 primarily the 239 is an option for those with smaller hands. I had a Sig 239 in 357 sig myself. Not a bad gun. I also had one in 9mm. The 9mm version can be expected to last much longer. Don't believe me give sig a call.
Pat

[HiVelSword]

HiVel, I've noticed that you and I have picked up on the same goof-ball posters making wild unsubstntiated assertions. Alaskapoop failed to supply evidence supporting any of his statements.

.

He doesn't have to supply evidence. He's elite, expert, SWAT, instructor, armorer, martial arts sniper with ESP, SPP, SPF, BO, BFF, J-LO etc, etc.

[WiskyT]

You are the most hard headed thing that I have ever crossed paths with.

You have specified the very cheapest of reloading equipment to prove a 9mm and 40 S&W have the same size case head. Yes, Lee shell holder is the cheapest gauge you could have picked.

I thought everyone knew that the 357 Sig started life as a necked down 40 S&W which was a shortened 10mm. Remember the Bren 10? Now, you just continue to think a 357 Sig. has all the same dimensions as a 9mm. My eyes are good enough that I can hold them side by side and tell they aren't the same size. How on earth do you think two cartridges that you claim are identical ever made it to market with any following at all? I have carried my G31 for about 7 years with 40 S&W mags and never had a misfeed of any kind. After the Clinton Crime Bill mag. limit sunset I was finally able to get hi-cap 357 mags. They work just like the 40's did. I really wonder why, according to you that I couldn't have used G-17 mags.

For all who believe that straight sided cases feed better than a bottle neck, explain why the US military round has been a bottle necked round, since the 45-70.

I am beginning to think you are just another troll. I'm totally done with this, it's been a total waste of time.

At

Your reading comprehension is exceeded only by the complete lack of coherent thought in your rants. Just a hint, organize your posts into PARAGRAPHS and people might be able to figure out WTF you're talking about. I'll try to address your post, item by item, including your insults, although you make it very hard.

First that I'm hardheaded, Some people call the pot black when they are a kettle and vice versa.

Second, Lee equipment. Okay, so now Richard Lee, an American success story who has invented more products, designed more tools than you ever will imagine is now stupid and harheaded like me. Okay, I'm in good company. He's a man with a big company that makes tons of money machining things out of metal. He might just know a little more than you about such things. He's determined that for OUR PURPOSES, the case head of the 9mm and 40/357Sig are the SAME. His multimillion dollar operation with skilled machinists is far more capapble of measuring metal items within a certain tolerance than your "eyes" which you use to measure things. Thank goodness the people who manufacture things like airplanes use the methods Lee uses and not their "eyes" to get the job done.

As for the last part of your post, Bren 10, yes I remember Miami Vice. I know about the developement of the 40SW round. I know about the FBI and it's reduced 10mm loads and the Miami shootout. I have no idea what that has to do with the fact that the 9mm and 40/357 case heads are the same size.

I don't understand the part about G17 magazines or what that has to do with any of this. If you're asking whether G17 mags would work in a 357Sig Glock, my guess would be yes based on my expirience with getting 9 and 40 mags mixed up when dopey people grab stuff off my side of the bench. I wouldn't carry the gun like that in the field, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works.

[WiskyT]

Now, you just continue to think a 357 Sig. has all the same dimensions as a 9mm...How on earth do you think two cartridges that you claim are identical ever made it to market with any following at all?[/

This is the best part and deserving of a seperate post so people can see what a liar you are. You are lieing to distort my position now that you've dug yourself into a hole. Are you a Democrat sir?

Show where I made any reference to any part of these cartridges being the same other than the CASE HEAD. My original point was that the 9mm cartridge has the same drop off in diameter over its length as the 357Sig. The 9mm has it continually as a taper and the 357Sig has it as a shoulder, but the result is the same.

I was asking why the 357Sig with its shoulder was somehow better suited for feeding in a semiautomatic pistol than the 9mm with its taper. Not one person in over 7 pages has addressed this. All we've had is some flat earth types say the 9mm isn't tapered.

[BadAndy]

You know what would be awesome? A necked down .45ACP case that uses .40 caliber bullets. Or even a .50AE necked down to use .45 bullets!!

[HiVelSword]

You know what would be awesome? A necked down .45ACP case that uses .40 caliber bullets. Or even a .50AE necked down to use .45 bullets!!

Are you being sarcastic?

.45 to .40 = .400 Cor Bon

.50AE necked down to .429 = .440 Cor Bon. No, it's not a .45 but it's close.

[hawk]

Wisky, Let me ask you something since you're so fixated on this Lee "Universal" shell holder proving your point. If the case heads are the same diameter, why does RCBS, Redding, Lyman and Hornady all make a seperate shell holder for 9 and .40/.357SIG? Even Lee makes separate shell holders for 9 and 40 besides the Universal shell holder. I use a #6 Lee for 9mm and a #19 Lee for .40. Richard Lee is quite an innovator but that doesn't prove anything.

If .03" is insignificant then I sure don't want you shooting any of my guns. You were right on one thing though. I did miss the joke about the hammer. I couldn't get past that chip on your shoulder to recognize it.

[BadAndy]

Are you being sarcastic?

.45 to .40 = .400 Cor Bon

.50AE necked down to .429 = .440 Cor Bon. No, it's not a .45 but it's close.

Yes, it was meant as a joke until you made me feel like an idiot for not knowing about those already :ack:

[epsylum]

Yes, it was meant as a joke until you made me feel like an idiot for not knowing about those already :ack:

10mm necked to 9mm = 9x25 Dillon (I hear people say "I wish they made a 10mm based version of the .357sig" a lot not knowing it already exists)

.45 necked down to 9mm = .38 Casull

[HiVelSword]

10mm necked to 9mm = 9x25 Dillon (I hear people say "I wish they made a 10mm based version of the .357sig" a lot not knowing it already exists)

.45 necked down to 9mm = .38 Casull

IMO, pistol cartridges that look like simple multiplication don't sell well (or folk don't even know they exist) because of their designation.

9x23 and 9x25 are multiplication problems. The creators should have tried to be a tad more creative.

Heck, 9mm Bolt would do for either one. I'd like to carry a pistol in 9mm Bolt.

But some say I'm a little weird.

[epsylum]

Heck, 9mm Bolt would do for either one. I'd like to carry a pistol in 9mm Bolt.

But some say I'm a little weird.

Or 9mm GrrrrAPler!

(inside joke for someone who doesn't even post here). ;)

[WiskyT]

Wisky, Let me ask you something since you're so fixated on this Lee "Universal" shell holder proving your point. If the case heads are the same diameter, why does RCBS, Redding, Lyman and Hornady all make a seperate shell holder for 9 and .40/.357SIG? Even Lee makes separate shell holders for 9 and 40 besides the Universal shell holder. I use a #6 Lee for 9mm and a #19 Lee for .40. Richard Lee is quite an innovator but that doesn't prove anything.

If .03" is insignificant then I sure don't want you shooting any of my guns. You were right on one thing though. I did miss the joke about the hammer. I couldn't get past that chip on your shoulder to recognize it.


You haven't addressed the statement you made trying to make it look like I was saying the 9mm,40, and 357Sig were the same in every respect when I was only talking about the diameter of the case head. All I did was ask for someone to address why the 9mm bullet of the 9mm Luger round feeding into the 40 caliber entrance of the 9mm chamber was any less reliable than the 9mm bullet of the 357Sig feeding into the 40 caliber hole of the 357Sig chamber.

In fact, the meplat of the 9mm Luger bullet is probably smaller than the meplat of the 357Sig bullet, which means an even greater "funnel" effect for the 9mm Luger. I don't have any 357Sig ammo to confirm the larger meplat, so I'm not saying that with any authority.

As far as shellholders, if you go to the Lee sight and navigate to the replacement parts for dies you will see that the 9mm and 40 use the #19. Maybe it was different when you bought yours, or maybe you've found another shellholder that also works well. I'm talking about the ones that came shipped with my die sets probably 10 years ago and the ones Lee lists on his sight now.

As far as other companies, I don't know. I've seen plenty of ways that RCBS and others go the long way around the barn that Lee does in a more simple way. If you want to save yourself some time switching calibers on your press, use the #19 for 40 and 9mm, it works fine.


The bottom line with all this reliability stuff is, the gun companies spend mucho time making sure their guns work. Glock, Sig etc wouldn't sell a 357Sig, or 9mm, if they didn't work ALL THE TIME. If you have one of these guns and it isn't reliable, it isn't the cartridge it is chambered for, it is a manufacturing defect. These defects do happen, and they are fixed under warranty. If a particular gun never runs right, then it's because the defect was not properly diagnosed and repaired.

[hawk]

You haven't addressed the statement you made trying to make it look like I was saying the 9mm,40, and 357Sig were the same in every respect when I was only talking about the diameter of the case head.


Excuse me but where did I ever say that?? I can find where AustinTX said it in post #132 but I haven't edited any of my posts.

[WiskyT]

Excuse me but where did I ever say that?? I can find where AustinTX said it in post #132 but I haven't edited any of my posts.

Oops! You're right. I got it mixed up. You didn't say that. Sorry.:embarassed:

[nutty_one]

Still hard to find ammo locally for it. Sportsman's Warehouse is as good as it gets, but they carry far less of the .357 and the .45GAP than anything else, and it's speeeeeeeendy. .45GAP Winchester USA (white box) FMJ's were $23.50 a box (50 ct) and .357Sig was about the same. Also hard to find good JHP's local (again Sportsman's is the only place I've seen carrying the stuf lately, and it can demand almost $2 a round.

[Beware Owner]

Good thing handloaders don't have this "expensive ammo" problem.

[AustinTx]

Can someone please explain why the bottleneck 357Sig is more reliable than the tapered 9mm? They are the same size on their respective same ends.

In ten years all the 357Sig agencies will be switching to 45's and the 45 agnecies will be switching to 357Sig.

This is the best part and deserving of a seperate post so people can see what a liar you are. You are lieing to distort my position now that you've dug yourself into a hole. Are you a Democrat sir?

Show where I made any reference to any part of these cartridges being the same other than the CASE HEAD. My original point was that the 9mm cartridge has the same drop off in diameter over its length as the 357Sig. The 9mm has it continually as a taper and the 357Sig has it as a shoulder, but the result is the same.

I was asking why the 357Sig with its shoulder was somehow better suited for feeding in a semiautomatic pistol than the 9mm with its taper. Not one person in over 7 pages has addressed this. All we've had is some flat earth types say the 9mm isn't tapered.

SIR:
The top quote is where you said a 9mm & 357 are the same size, on their respective ends. I guess you have forgotten about that. It is your first post, on this subject.

I don't appreciate being called a liar by an absolute idiot. Where is this hole that I have supposedly dug?

It has been explained numerous times. You evidently didn't chose to read.
At

[BadAndy]

Good thing handloaders don't have this "expensive ammo" problem.

Damn skippy!

[Alaskapopo]

He doesn't have to supply evidence. He's elite, expert, SWAT, instructor, armorer, martial arts sniper with ESP, SPP, SPF, BO, BFF, J-LO etc, etc.

What was this post supposed to accomplish. Grow up people and address the issue at hand don't attack other posters. We are all adults here lets act like it.:upeyes:
Pat

[hirs80]

What was this post supposed to accomplish. Grow up people and address the issue at hand don't attack other posters. We are all adults here lets act like it.:upeyes:
Pat

Adults??? Me not so much!!!:tongueout:

[JNKIRK1974]

Well, none of it matters anymore. I bought a USP Compact .40 LEM today.
I would have switched the .357 with a .40 barrel anyway.

Thanks to everyone for the advice!

Jeff

[HiVelSword]

What was this post supposed to accomplish. Gro