Confused about the purpose of grains

[Dave53]

I had no experience with a handgun before a little over a year ago. I purchased a glock 26 just before receiving my CCW permit. About a month ago, I purchased a glock 36. My question has to do with the grain and type of ammo that would be appropriate for self defense inside the home or just walking the dog around the neighborhood. I wanted a smaller frame handgun because of the size of my hands and for concealment. Everytime I visit the sporting goods store I get a different opinion. Right now I have a box of 185gr Speer Gold Dot hollow points 45 caliber. I was told this was a good grain to use because of less penetration and speed. Any info would be helpful.

[boonyrat]

usually the mid wt. ammo is used for self defense,not saying the heavy wt. want do but with lighter ammo the firearm is more controlable.look into the self defense line of ammo like hornady produces,it is specially made for your delima. and the most important thing to remember is...dare i say this....:whistling: everyone has a opinion,go to three gunshops and you will get 15 opinions!research it and you will find your carry load!
stay away from hard ball ammo if over penetration is a concern at home,the load you mentioned seems to be what your searching for,good luck...boonyrat

[fredj338]

I had no experience with a handgun before a little over a year ago. I purchased a glock 26 just before receiving my CCW permit. About a month ago, I purchased a glock 36. My question has to do with the grain and type of ammo that would be appropriate for self defense inside the home or just walking the dog around the neighborhood. I wanted a smaller frame handgun because of the size of my hands and for concealment. Everytime I visit the sporting goods store I get a different opinion. Right now I have a box of 185gr Speer Gold Dot hollow points 45 caliber. I was told this was a good grain to use because of less penetration and speed. Any info would be helpful.

THe "grain" is a measure of avoirdupous weight; 437.5gr=1oz. SO that is the wt. of the bullet. Typically, lighter bullets are moving at a higher vel. but penetrate less because they lose there momentum faster. I would feel fine carrying 185grGD in a G36.

[Shawn Dodson]

One "grain" equals 1/7000 pound.

Bullet weight: the higher the grains the heavier the bullet.

Propellant charge: the higher the grains the heavier the charge.

As a general rule of thumb for defense ammunition, lighter bullets are propelled at higher velocity than heavier bullets. Less bullet weight = less inertia = less resistance to acceleration.

What ammo would be appropriate for self-defense? A bullet must achieve adequate penetration to reach and damage vital tissues from any angular aspect, including if the bullet must first perforate an arm. The most widely accepted range of penetration is 12"-14" in bare ordnance gelatin and 13"-16" in ordnance gelatin covered with four layers of heavy denim cloth. The closer the average penetration depths are to one another in bare ordnance gelatin versus ordnance gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth, then the more consistent and reliable the bullet expansion is. These penetration values should be tested using the same model pistol or a pistol with the same barrel length.

There are a few places on the Internet in which you can find ammunition performance tests where the G26 and G36 were used. I have some data on my web site, but it's old and probably outdated.

Cheers!

[PAGunner]

I had no experience with a handgun before a little over a year ago. I purchased a glock 26 just before receiving my CCW permit. About a month ago, I purchased a glock 36. My question has to do with the grain and type of ammo that would be appropriate for self defense inside the home or just walking the dog around the neighborhood. I wanted a smaller frame handgun because of the size of my hands and for concealment. Everytime I visit the sporting goods store I get a different opinion. Right now I have a box of 185gr Speer Gold Dot hollow points 45 caliber. I was told this was a good grain to use because of less penetration and speed. Any info would be helpful.

That was terrible advice you got. When it comes to wounds, penetration is your friend, heavier rounds get you the needed penetration. IMHO, .45 was meant to be shot with 230gr. (for self defense), I wouldn't touch a 9mm round under 124gr., but I prefer 147gr. Lack of penetration can get you killed, don't listen to people who say you don't want over penetration.

[vafish]

Light and fast vs slow and heavy,

The argument begins again.

:popcorn:

I'd have no problem carrying 185s in my .45 ACP, IF I had tested them throughly and they were 100% reliable in my gun. I didn't try 185 gold dots in my G36 when I had it.

[glock20c10mm]

Light and fast vs slow and heavy,

The argument begins again.
:popcorn:
You forgot heavy/fast.:whistling:

[fredj338]

That was terrible advice you got. When it comes to wounds, penetration is your friend, heavier rounds get you the needed penetration. IMHO, .45 was meant to be shot with 230gr. (for self defense), I wouldn't touch a 9mm round under 124gr., but I prefer 147gr. Lack of penetration can get you killed, don't listen to people who say you don't want over penetration.
PA, that is your advice & to call someone elses "terrible" is just foolish. It is YOUR opinion, but 230gr ammo from a short bbl can offer poor performance, it's why many go to +P. Then 230gr+P in a small pistol slows recoil recovery. A good 185gr-200gr bullet moving @ 900fps+ from a short bbl. 45 is not going to bounce off a BG, no, depending on design, it can penetrate just as deeply if not deeper than a soft 230grJHP @ 770fps (typ. for a short bbl). The GD, XTP & GS are good 185gr JHP that I would & have no problem betting my life on, of course, just my terrible opinion.:upeyes:

[PAGunner]

PA, that is your advice & to call someone elses "terrible" is just foolish. It is YOUR opinion, but 230gr ammo from a short bbl can offer poor performance, it's why many go to +P. Then 230gr+P in a small pistol slows recoil recovery. A good 185gr-200gr bullet moving @ 900fps+ from a short bbl. 45 is not going to bounce off a BG, no, depending on design, it can penetrate just as deeply if not deeper than a soft 230grJHP @ 770fps (typ. for a short bbl). The GD, XTP & GS are good 185gr. JHP that I would & have no problem betting my life on, of course, just my terrible opinion.:upeyes:

Do you have data from a ballistics test showing 185gr. or 200gr. .45 cartridges achieving at least 12" of penetration in gelatin consistently? FBI uses that as their golden rule, reading your sig line, it appears you use a qoute from the report I am talking about. If you can show me that, you will make a believer out of me, I googled data to prove you wrong, but all I could find was a table (not sure how credible it is) that supports your assertion, so perhaps I'm wrong. However, I know I have seen other ballistics data showing 185gr and 200gr do not penetration enough, particularly when you hit bone due to lack of density (and there is much better chance than not you will hit bone if you hit the thorax). I am by no means a ballistics expert, but trust the FBI report with their judgement on what the minimum penetration should be.

Btw, here is the link supporting your assertion regarding the penetrating ability of the lighter .45 rounds:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/rem45-185gs+p-g30.htm

If I know I could get that penetration out of lighter rounds, I don't see a problem carrying them, but I'm still skeptical.

[fredj338]

Do you have data from a ballistics test showing 185gr. or 200gr. .45 cartridges achieving at least 12" of penetration in gelatin consistently? FBI uses that as their golden rule, reading your sig line, it appears you use a qoute from the report I am talking about. If you can show me that, you will make a believer out of me, I googled data to prove you wrong, but all I could find was a table (not sure how credible it is) that supports your assertion, so perhaps I'm wrong. However, I know I have seen other ballistics data showing 185gr and 200gr do not penetration enough, particularly when you hit bone due to lack of density (and there is much better chance than not you will hit bone if you hit the thorax). I am by no means a ballistics expert, but trust the FBI report with their judgement on what the minimum penetration should be.

Btw, here is the link supporting your assertion regarding the penetrating ability of the lighter .45 rounds:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/45acp/rem45-185gs+p-g30.htm

If I know I could get that penetration out of lighter rounds, I don't see a problem carrying them, but I'm still skeptical.

I'll have to dig, but most of the current 185gr-200grjHP will meet 12" min FBI results, if that measn anything really. I have wetpack test many diff. 45acp loads & while penetration isn't the same as bal.gel, it is representative for comparison purposes. You are free to shoot what you want, but saying one persons opinion is "terrible advice" vs your own is just, let's say minimally educated.:wavey: This may be what you were looking for (hard to read). http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=pen2

[MSgt Dotson]

Just my opinion here...

The FBI places great faith in their "12" of penetration at all costs" mantra...

It caused a swing in emphasis to penetration, perhaps more so than was required....

For instance, if the near legendary former .357 mag 125 gr loads tended to be stopped at 'only' 11" of penetration, does this make the loads less effective? NO...they merely do not meet FBI specs, which specify MUST have 12" thru clothed gelatin...

It's not as if a load that pnetrates only 10.5" is suddenly a piece of dung....

[MOHAA Player]

You forgot heavy/fast.:whistling:
4th from right must be what your talking about:whistling:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/9mm-357sig-40sw-10mm-45acp-45gap.jpg

[fredj338]

Just my opinion here...

The FBI places great faith in their "12" of penetration at all costs" mantra...

It caused a swing in emphasis to penetration, perhaps more so than was required....

For instance, if the near legendary former .357 mag 125 gr loads tended to be stopped at 'only' 11" of penetration, does this make the loads less effective? NO...they merely do not meet FBI specs, which specify MUST have 12" thru clothed gelatin...

It's not as if a load that pnetrates only 10.5" is suddenly a piece of dung....
Exactly! It's a magic bullet @ 12.1" but marginal @ 11.5". Even calibrated bal.gel. & the bullet manuf. process could yirld diff. in penetration of more than 1". I look for adequate penetration & good expansion. Many 45acp bullets will get you there.:supergrin:

[anubisgodofgods]

Dave53, I carry 185gr speer gold dot +P in my G21SF. The 185gr bullet in .45acp is a good round and the +P makes sure it get enough penetration through clothing to be more than effective.

[PAGunner]

I'll have to dig, but most of the current 185gr-200grjHP will meet 12" min FBI results, if that measn anything really. I have wetpack test many diff. 45acp loads & while penetration isn't the same as bal.gel, it is representative for comparison purposes. You are free to shoot what you want, but saying one persons opinion is "terrible advice" vs your own is just, let's say minimally educated.:wavey: This may be what you were looking for (hard to read). http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php?sort=pen2

That is the second time you wrote that, I read it the first time. You keep calling me ignorant in a round about way, OK, maybe I was ignorant on the penetrative ability of light .45 rounds, I conceded that in my last post. Why don't we try to get past that and keep the thread productive, OK? I can admit when I'm wrong and according to the data I found, I was wrong.

Now, on to productive topics. That link is very interesting, from what I can see, looks like FMJs may be ideal in any grain for .45. Woud you mind sharing your wetpack data? I would love to see it, not to try and pick it apart or any crap like that, but to enlighten myself a bit. Always good to not be flying blind. I'm actually considering buying a G38, would you happen to have any data on various GAP cartridges? Perhaps you have a suggestion on a specific GAP round? I ask because you seem to be well educated in .45ACP ballistics. I'm actually thinking FMJ for the GAP, perhaps the double tap round, what do you think?

To OP, sorry if it seems like I am hijacking the thread, not really my intention. I'd also like to apologize for my origional post, as it seems there are loads in lighter grains that do get 12" of penetration.

[PAGunner]

Exactly! It's a magic bullet @ 12.1" but marginal @ 11.5". Even calibrated bal.gel. & the bullet manuf. process could yirld diff. in penetration of more than 1". I look for adequate penetration & good expansion. Many 45acp bullets will get you there.:supergrin:

FBI lists 12" as the Mininum, I believe they state ideal penetration is 18", you gotta draw the line somewhere. Who really knows what you will need, everyone has different anatomy, shot angles will vary, along with distance and what clothing BG may be wearing. Lots to factor in, but I great penetration trumps mild expansion any day of the week. JMO

[glock20c10mm]

4th from right must be what your talking about :whistling:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h27/Mohaaplayer/9mm-357sig-40sw-10mm-45acp-45gap.jpg
That's it!:bowdown: That's it!:notworthy:

Don't worry, I'm taking a chill pill now. :sigh:

[fredj338]

That is the second time you wrote that, I read it the first time. You keep calling me ignorant in a round about way, OK, maybe I was ignorant on the penetrative ability of light .45 rounds, I conceded that in my last post. Why don't we try to get past that and keep the thread productive, OK? I can admit when I'm wrong and according to the data I found, I was wrong.

Now, on to productive topics. That link is very interesting, from what I can see, looks like FMJs may be ideal in any grain for .45. Woud you mind sharing your wetpack data? I would love to see it, not to try and pick it apart or any crap like that, but to enlighten myself a bit. Always good to not be flying blind. I'm actually considering buying a G38, would you happen to have any data on various GAP cartridges? Perhaps you have a suggestion on a specific GAP round? I ask because you seem to be well educated in .45ACP ballistics. I'm actually thinking FMJ for the GAP, perhaps the double tap round, what do you think?

To OP, sorry if it seems like I am hijacking the thread, not really my intention. I'd also like to apologize for my origional post, as it seems there are loads in lighter grains that do get 12" of penetration.

Sorry PA, it's just you got me going & sometimes it's hard to pull back. Nope I don't think your are ignorant, not at all, sorry for the implication. Everyone has an opinion, I just try to base mine on what I see & touch, not what I read.
The FBI tests are a fine piece of work, but IMO, they favor penetration over everything else. It's how the LE community got stuck w/ the terrible early 147grJHP. Why not just use ball ammo?Testing is great, informative, etc. but it's just that, testing. Field results show terrific results from many loads that don't even come close to 18" of penetration. Also remember LEA need slightly diff. requrements for street use against armed felons often in cars. It's why bonded bullets are all the rage.
In 45acp, the 200grXTP @ 900fps (OM), expands to .65cal & penetrate almost 10" in wetpack.
The 230grGS @ 820fps, expands to .71cal & penetrates to just shy of 10".
The 185grGS @ 1100fps, expands to .74cal & gets to 9". Any of these will do the job on avg. size BG. On really big BG, you'll probably have to hit them 2-3x w/ anything coming out of a pistol. Do some testing yourslef, it's informative.:wavey:

[Gunnut 45/454]

Oh yeah that big beautiful cratrige 2nd from the right!! To the OP I'm a 45 ACP guy and have settled on th 200 gr XTP for my carry round. Balance between velocity and bullet wt.
Excellant penertration!! I get 908 fps with my loads out of a P345!

[glock20c10mm]

On really big BG, you'll probably have to hit them 2-3x w/ anything coming out of a pistol.
This is where the 10mm can really outshine the other available choices.:supergrin: Hey, has anyone tried any penetration testing with Hornadys 357SIG 147gr load? I would think that sucker oughta penetrate pretty well(compared to a standard 9mm 147gr load).:dunno: Who knows, sometimes speed helps, and sometimes it hinders. I would be curious to know though. I'ld check it out myself if I had a 357SIG conversion barrel for my G29, but that's still in the works.:crying: Now if money grew on trees.....

[PAGunner]

Sorry PA, it's just you got me going & sometimes it's hard to pull back. Nope I don't think your are ignorant, not at all, sorry for the implication. Everyone has an opinion, I just try to base mine on what I see & touch, not what I read.
The FBI tests are a fine piece of work, but IMO, they favor penetration over everything else. It's how the LE community got stuck w/ the terrible early 147grJHP. Why not just use ball ammo?Testing is great, informative, etc. but it's just that, testing. Field results show terrific results from many loads that don't even come close to 18" of penetration. Also remember LEA need slightly diff. requrements for street use against armed felons often in cars. It's why bonded bullets are all the rage.
In 45acp, the 200grXTP @ 900fps (OM), expands to .65cal & penetrate almost 10" in wetpack.
The 230grGS @ 820fps, expands to .71cal & penetrates to just shy of 10".
The 185grGS @ 1100fps, expands to .74cal & gets to 9". Any of these will do the job on avg. size BG. On really big BG, you'll probably have to hit them 2-3,x w/ anything coming out of a pistol. Do some testing yourslef, it's informative.:wavey:

I wasn't offended, I even conceded that "maybe" (I was) ignorant on lighter .45ACP rounds, no need to be PC, very difficult to offend me (after all, we are all ignorant about something, if we weren't, we'd be "know it alls"). This thread has inspired me to start a new thread about .45GAP, perhaps you can opine there.

[fredj338]

I wasn't offended, I even conceded that "maybe" (I was) ignorant on lighter .45ACP rounds, no need to be PC, very difficult to offend me (after all, we are all ignorant about something, if we weren't, we'd be "know it alls"). This thread has inspired me to start a new thread about .45GAP, perhaps you can opine there.

Only in that I am not a huge fan of the GAP round, but then I have only test fired one. One of the great things about the 45acp is it operates @ such low pressures, the GAP runs hotter. I can see a point for a subcompact, smaller & lighter than a 45acp, yet still give one a good, big cartridge. Then again, I think the subcomp. are where the 9mm or even 40 rules, at least in Kommiefornia, land of the 10rd mag cap.:crying:

[Shawn Dodson]

MSgt Dotson writes: It's not as if a load that pnetrates only 10.5" is suddenly a piece of dung....

Duncan MacPherson, co-author of the IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specification observes: 6.1.2
Most physicians knowledgeable in wound trauma believe that adequate penetration depth is the most important single property in handgun ammunition. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987. Unfortunately, this assumption has often been interpreted very simplistically (i.e., 12.1 Inches of penetration is good, but 11.9 inches of penetration is no good), but the real situation is more complicated. The problem is the possibility that the bullet will require an unusually large penetration to reach vital structures well inside the body. This can occur when the bullet must traverse non-critical tissue; e.g., the extended arm of an assailant aiming his handgun, and/or an unusual bullet path angle in the torso, and/or an unusually fat or beefy individual. The probability of needing this extra penetration is a judgment call, but most people believe it is a significant factor and much more important than the relatively modest increase in expanded diameter achieved by reducing penetration depth (e.g., approximately 30% increase in expanded bullet diameter is achieved by designing to an 8 inch penetration depth rather than 12 inches). This is the reason the professional wound ballistics community specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate. The suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 12.5 inches and less than 14.0 inches. Even at the limit of minimum value of this range (12.5 inches) and the limiting value of standard deviation (0.6) in Section 6.1.1, about 80% of the penetration will be greater than 12 inches and essentially all will be greater than 11 inches. This bare gelatin test provides a lower limit on penetration because most shootings will involve at least some clothing; slightly less expansion and slightly deeper penetration can be expected in typical service use.

6.2.2
The mean penetration depth in this section can be expected to be somewhat larger than in Section 6.1.2 (bare gelatin), and represents a reasonable upper bound on the mean penetration depth in service. The suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 13.0 inches and less than 16.0 inches. The realities of JHP bullet performance eliminate any practical concern that penetration depth will be inadequate in this test for any ammunition with adequate penetration in the Section 6.1 test. A one inch increase in maximum penetration depth corresponds to approximately a 0.02 inch reduction in expanded diameter, which is not a significant concern as long as the requirement of Section 6.2.1 is met. The general discussion of penetration depth in Section 6.1.2 also applies here.

FredJ33 writes: The FBI tests are a fine piece of work, but IMO, they favor penetration over everything else. It's how the LE community got stuck w/ the terrible early 147grJHP. Why not just use ball ammo?Testing is great, informative, etc. but it's just that, testing.

The “terrible early 147gr JHPs” were the result of ammo manufacturers “gaming” the FBI’s performance requirements, and the FBI not realizing their performance requirements overemphasized penetration through barrier materials at the expense of reliable expansion through clothing. Two of eight test events in the FBI protocol involve “heavy clothing” whereas the remaining 75% of test events involve bare gelatin, drywall, plywood, automotive sheet metal and automotive laminated windshield glass. As long as a load penetrated at least 12 inches it met the minimum requirement. Bare gelatin represents best case conditions to produce bullet expansion. The hard part was to engineer a load that reliably expanded in bare gelatin and achieved 12” minimum penetration, a level of performance that was uncommon back then. It was far easier to design a bullet that would pass through barrier materials, including heavy clothing, and achieve 12” penetration.

Testing, using a realistic soft tissue stimulant, validated against actual shootings, is precisely the reason why modern day handgun ammunition performs as well as it does.

FredJ33 writes: Field results show terrific results from many loads that don't even come close to 18" of penetration. The most important penetration depth is MINIMUM penetration depth, which the most widely accepted is 12” (FBI) or 12.5” (IWBA), whereas INS (ICE) accepted 9”. Interestingly the IWBA maximum penetration depth specification (14” for bare gelatin, 16” for gelatin covered by four layers of heavy denim cloth) is less than FBI (up to 18”) and INS (up to 20”).

FredJ33 writes: Also remember LEA need slightly diff. requrements for street use against armed felons often in cars. It's why bonded bullets are all the rage. I load Gold Dot ammunition in my CCW handguns, G19 and Kahr PM9, because the load performs well. I don’t believe my performance requirements are any different than for LEO as I might have to one day shoot into or out of an automobile.

[fredj338]

MSgt Dotson writes:
FredJ33 writes: I load Gold Dot ammunition in my CCW handguns, G19 and Kahr PM9, because the load performs well. I don’t believe my performance requirements are any different than for LEO as I might have to one day shoot into or out of an automobile.
You are correct shawn, one day you might, but for LEO, it's an every day possibilty. I also agree about the need for a min. penetration, my only point is you don't turn your nose up at a round that does 11.1" because it didn't make 12", or think if 12" si good then 18" must be better. WHether the early ammo manuf. were gaming the LE community, it still resulted in some very bad bullet designs like the early 147grJHP. Many CCW folks swear by what the LEO carry & carried the same poor ammo. Further testing has given us better bullets & ammo for sure.:dunno:

[PAGunner]

Kudos to you Shawn Dodson, that was a very informative post, kinda helps me to understand the history of the 9mm bullet in particular the 147gr's. Very interesting, makes one really appreciate modern ammo.