Speer GD .45ACP vs. 9mm

[Tilley]

I just recently switched my duty weapon from a G21 using Speer GD 230gr .45ACP to a Beretta 92FS using Speer GD 124gr 9mm +P ammo.

I shoot the 9mm ammo through a heavier weapon much better than I do my Glock 45. Accuracy in the initial shot and especially the follow up shots are of high importance to me. I am scary-accurate with the Beretta.

Another reason for the switch was cost of training. 9mm ammo is much less expensive than the .45 caliber ammo. I can afford to train more on my own time.

I love my .45 cal and I felt somewhat insecure with the smaller 9mm round, so I did some checking. Using the Speer website, here are some statistics I found:

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?

[MTS532]

I just recently switched my duty weapon from a G21 using Speer GD 230gr .45ACP to a Beretta 92FS using Speer GD 124gr 9mm +P ammo.

I shoot the 9mm ammo through a heavier weapon much better than I do my Glock 45. Accuracy in the initial shot and especially the follow up shots are of high importance to me. I am scary-accurate with the Beretta.

Another reason for the switch was cost of training. 9mm ammo is much less expensive than the .45 caliber ammo. I can afford to train more on my own time.

I love my .45 cal and I felt somewhat insecure with the smaller 9mm round, so I did some checking. Using the Speer website, here are some statistics I found:

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?


I think a lot of it is confidence. A lot of people just feel better with a gun firing a larger bullet. It makes sense and the .45 has a lot of combat history behind it. Also, a lot of people want to believe whatever caliber THEY have is the best for self defense.

But 'speed and power' do not completely define the effectiveness of service caliber handgun ammo. It's part of the equation, but bullet design is more important and shot placement is everything.

Any caliber may work with only one shot. Any caliber may fail with a whole magazine of rounds placed into the bad guy.

After all, he may not have read the latest "My (insert caliber here) Is Most Effective" thread on GT. Carry what you are proficient with.

[SIGShooter]

People don't/won't read.

[cole]

I just recently switched my duty weapon from a G21 using Speer GD 230gr .45ACP to a Beretta 92FS using Speer GD 124gr 9mm +P ammo.

I shoot the 9mm ammo through a heavier weapon much better than I do my Glock 45. Accuracy in the initial shot and especially the follow up shots are of high importance to me. I am scary-accurate with the Beretta.

Another reason for the switch was cost of training. 9mm ammo is much less expensive than the .45 caliber ammo. I can afford to train more on my own time.

I love my .45 cal and I felt somewhat insecure with the smaller 9mm round, so I did some checking. Using the Speer website, here are some statistics I found:

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?

It all depends on what you consider the important variable(s) to be. Velocity/Energy. Weight/Mass. Sectional Density. Diameter. Expanded surface area. Etc. My thought below. Links in my signature:
The table attempts to illustrate the comparison data in percentages. It presents average/typical results for a load. Velocity, expansion and penetration will vary. However, the relationship and correlations of the data can be expected to remain relatively consistent.

The main idea was to translate numeric differences to percentages. The numeric values of load data are often so small to begin with it's far more difficult to appreciate differences when looking only at the small numeric differences that can be measurably large on the relatively small scale of the load comparison data.

Folks also confuse diameter with surface area when considering expansion. This is a fundamental error that also makes differences appear small when they are not. Percentages establish a comparable scale of difference for outcomes.

Reading the table
Example #1: The 230gr .45acp has 7.1% more momentum than the 180gr .40sw
Example #2: The 115gr 9mm has 12.5% more energy than the .45acp
Example #3: The 180gr .40sw has 18.3% more mass than the 147gr 9mm
Example #4: The initial surface area of the .45acp is 37.8% greater than 9mm
Example #5: The expanded surface area of the .40sw is 8.8% greater than 9mm.
Example #6: Penetrating 13” is 8.3% more penetration than 12”.

The "Seconds" table relates to recovery from recoil for follow-up shots.

Actual Data Example: Load Test Data (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868400)
Test-to-Test Comparison Data, Overall Outcomes, All Shot Scenarios

Summary, Sorted by Penetration, at least 4 tests (w/out FBI and BC*)
Caliber Weight Penetration Expand, Ave.
.40sw 180 13.44 0.67
.45acp 230 13.35 0.76
9mm 147 12.78 0.64
9mm 124 12.40 0.65
9mm 127 12.28 0.62

Interpretation:
1) The 230gr .45acp has 22.3% greater expansion (surface area) with 99.3% the penetration of the 180gr .40sw
2) The 180gr .40sw has 8.8% greater expansion (surface area) with 5.2% greater penetration than the 147gr 9mm
3) The 230gr .45acp has 29.1% greater expansion (surface area) with 4.5% greater penetration than the 147gr 9mm

Math:
Momentum = Mass x Velocity
Energy = Mass x Velocity Squared (e=mc2)
Area of a Circle = Radius x Radius x 3.14 (r*r*Pi)
Radius = Diameter / 2 (d/2)

Reference the table as you like. Skill is priceless, but skill does not trump the science once the good shot is made. The data reflects comparable performance given identical shot placement.

The Energy table can be seem as a relative comparison of predicted/expected recoil as energy forward relates somewhat to energy back.

Please feel free to check the math.

Side note: One thing to remember about small differences in percentages (i.e. the concept of statistics) is that they all can seem small until you are that difference.

I’ll update the table as I have more to add.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=152603&stc=1&d=1214461078

Illustration, Initial Diameter
http://glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=151199&d=1212564049

[Glolt20-91]

I just recently switched my duty weapon from a G21 using Speer GD 230gr .45ACP to a Beretta 92FS using Speer GD 124gr 9mm +P ammo.

I shoot the 9mm ammo through a heavier weapon much better than I do my Glock 45. Accuracy in the initial shot and especially the follow up shots are of high importance to me. I am scary-accurate with the Beretta.

Another reason for the switch was cost of training. 9mm ammo is much less expensive than the .45 caliber ammo. I can afford to train more on my own time.

I love my .45 cal and I felt somewhat insecure with the smaller 9mm round, so I did some checking. Using the Speer website, here are some statistics I found:

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?

Run your own deflection tests, add a few bones from the local supermarket meat dept for penetration and see the results for yourself.

This 124gr GD handloaded to the high 1200s failed miserably in barrier testing.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/aztrekker/At%20the%20range/9mmP124grGoldDot.jpg

Bob :cowboy:

[SIGShooter]

Awesome posts!!!

[fredj338]

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?
There's more to it than alittle extra vel. & energy. "Outclasses" is funny. The energy numbers can vary that much from round to round. The 230grJHP has almost 1.5x more momentum (if that really matters), vel. is just there it get the bullet to do work. The 124gr+PGD is a good bullet, but the initial impact of the 45 is 45cal & only gets bigger. With good shot placement, either will do the job. Your cinfidence in the paltform is more important than the trivial diff. in ME.:dunno:

[SIGShooter]

One question I have is...

The difference in velocity for the 124 and 124 +P GDHP is 70 FPS. What will that extra 70 FPS give you in terms of internal performance?

I personally prefer the 124 Gr. standard pressure GDHP. I think the recovery with the +P is slower shot to shot. Of course that is for me and my weapons.

[fredj338]

One question I have is...

The difference in velocity for the 124 and 124 +P GDHP is 70 FPS. What will that extra 70 FPS give you in terms of internal performance?

I personally prefer the 124 Gr. standard pressure GDHP. I think the recovery with the +P is slower shot to shot. Of course that is for me and my weapons.
70fps will give you alittle more ME, big deal & alittle more expansion, this is maybe. maybe not a big deal. Shoot what you are most comfortable with.

[MOHAA Player]

When in doubt strap on a 45:whistling:

[pimuk]

Run your own deflection tests, add a few bones from the local supermarket meat dept for penetration and see the results for yourself.

This 124gr GD handloaded to the high 1200s failed miserably in barrier testing.

Bob :cowboy:

Bob: What do you compare the 124 gr Gold Got with or just it alone?

[1canvas]

a 9mm can expand and get bigger but a .45 never gets smaller

[Rugby]

a 9mm can expand and get bigger but a .45 never gets smaller

It can if it fragments.

Never say never.

[scscglock22]

Shot placement if great if you have time. When someone is returning fire in your directions that is not always a luxury. There have been may shootings involving 9mm+P were a suspect has been hit upwards of 13 rounds and that individual survived. That’s not to say that does not happen with a larger caliber but I’ll take mass over the gain of velocity you get with a 9mm. Don’t get me wrong, Speer Gold Dot is an awesome round no matter what caliber. The ballistics on GD is great and if you have ever seen it being produced it is very impressive outfit ATK has. Every Gold Dot round is hand inspected.

[Agent6-3/8]

ISpeer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

Those numbers mean very little when lead meets flesh. I'm a fan of both the 9mm and .45ACP. The 9mm with quality ammo is a excellent SD round. However, I can't and won't argue that bigger isn't better. (or at least might be)

However, I think you made a good move. If your are quicker more confident with your 9mm Beretta than your .45 G21, then its the gun you should be carrying.

[SubSolar]

I actually think that the better hollow point designs today make the .45 even better compared to the 9mm. Think about it, with non hollow points, the sizes are .35" and .45". Now it's .7" vs. 1.1". If you use pi * r^2 the surface area of the .45 is much greater than the 9mm. I think greater chance of hitting something vital like a heart or spinal cord. A 230 grain bullet will go through bones easier to I think than a 147 grain. Also I think I read that hollow points only expand about 60% of the time in the real world cause of things like bones, heavy jackets, etc.

[Glolt20-91]

Bob: What do you compare the 124 gr Gold Got with or just it alone?



Tested against:
9mm 125gr Gold Dot designed for .357SIG/.38Super;
9mm 147gr GS/Win notched
.38Super - 124gr/125gr - Sierra, GD, GS, Win notched, XTP; 140gr (.357cal) Sierra/XTP, 147gr GS/Win notched.
.40S&W/10mm - 155gr/165gr/180gr/ GS/GD
10mm - 200gr XTP
.45auto - 165gr Federal Hydrashok, 230gr TAP, 230gr Hydrashok,
Handloaded - 230gr/GD/GS/Win notched, 240gr Sierra JHC, 185gr/GS.

And then there's the top tier .357mag. :thumbsup:

This is off the top of my head w/o going to my log book, about 3,000 rounds worth of testing with different media.

Please remember that it was the NYSP that considered the 124gr Gold Dot as a caliber failure when 9mm was replaced by the .45GAP.

Bob :cowboy:

[J.P.]

Your cinfidence in the paltform is more important than the trivial diff. in ME.:dunno:
I agree.

One question I have is...

The difference in velocity for the 124 and 124 +P GDHP is 70 FPS. What will that extra 70 FPS give you in terms of internal performance?

I personally prefer the 124 Gr. standard pressure GDHP. I think the recovery with the +P is slower shot to shot. Of course that is for me and my weapons.
Extra velocity will increase the likelyhood of expansion over a wider range of circumstances.
Bullets that expand in gel may or may not expand on the street, but bullets that fragment will at least expand. (usually)
Fragmentation has it's detractors but it is indicative of a bullet's expansion capability. Fortuntely we aren't forced to choose anymore since we have high quality "bonded" designs available from almost every major player.


Tested against:
9mm 125gr Gold Dot designed for .357SIG/.38Super;
9mm 147gr GS/Win notched
.38Super - 124gr/125gr - Sierra, GD, GS, Win notched, XTP; 140gr (.357cal) Sierra/XTP, 147gr GS/Win notched.
.40S&W/10mm - 155gr/165gr/180gr/ GS/GD
10mm - 200gr XTP
.45auto - 165gr Federal Hydrashok, 230gr TAP, 230gr Hydrashok,
Handloaded - 230gr/GD/GS/Win notched, 240gr Sierra JHC, 185gr/GS.

And then there's the top tier .357mag. :thumbsup:

This is off the top of my head w/o going to my log book, about 3,000 rounds worth of testing with different media.

Please remember that it was the NYSP that considered the 124gr Gold Dot as a caliber failure when 9mm was replaced by the .45GAP.

Bob :cowboy:

When you get a chance to review the test, I'd be very interested in looking at the results.

[Glock17JHP]

I just recently switched my duty weapon from a G21 using Speer GD 230gr .45ACP to a Beretta 92FS using Speer GD 124gr 9mm +P ammo.

I shoot the 9mm ammo through a heavier weapon much better than I do my Glock 45. Accuracy in the initial shot and especially the follow up shots are of high importance to me. I am scary-accurate with the Beretta.

Another reason for the switch was cost of training. 9mm ammo is much less expensive than the .45 caliber ammo. I can afford to train more on my own time.

I love my .45 cal and I felt somewhat insecure with the smaller 9mm round, so I did some checking. Using the Speer website, here are some statistics I found:

Speer .45 auto 230gr: Muzzle velocity-890ft/sec Energy-404ft-lbs
Speer 9mm 124gr +P: Muzzle velocity-1220ft/sec Energy-410ft/lbs

It seems to me the smaller 9mm round outclasses it's bigger brother in speed and power.

With these advantages using premium ammunition, why is the so much controversy over calibers?

I switched a few years ago from a Glock 21 .45 ACP with Winchester Ranger 230 grain JHP's (RA45T) to a Glock 17 9mm with Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP's (RA9T)...
I feel that I am MUCH MORE accurate as well with the 9mm, and do not regret the switch.
Magazine capacity went from 13+1 to 17 +1, too!!!
You did good, don't look back!!!

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee93/Glock17JHP/Glock179mmPistol.jpg

[AWMP]

Same reasons I choose a G17 over .45. Cost, practice, rounds and familiar back up, G26.

[SubSolar]

Interesting, with Glocks I find myself more accurate with the .45's than the 9mm's or .40's.

[pimuk]

Tested against:
9mm 125gr Gold Dot designed for .357SIG/.38Super;
9mm 147gr GS/Win notched
.38Super - 124gr/125gr - Sierra, GD, GS, Win notched, XTP; 140gr (.357cal) Sierra/XTP, 147gr GS/Win notched.
.40S&W/10mm - 155gr/165gr/180gr/ GS/GD
10mm - 200gr XTP
.45auto - 165gr Federal Hydrashok, 230gr TAP, 230gr Hydrashok,
Handloaded - 230gr/GD/GS/Win notched, 240gr Sierra JHC, 185gr/GS.

And then there's the top tier .357mag. :thumbsup:

This is off the top of my head w/o going to my log book, about 3,000 rounds worth of testing with different media.

Please remember that it was the NYSP that considered the 124gr Gold Dot as a caliber failure when 9mm was replaced by the .45GAP.

Bob :cowboy:

Thanks alot Bob. I second J.P. for results from your log book.

I read the Glock annual book and learned about the NYSP testing GAP 37s but was not sure of the change from the 9 m.m. And I don't know if NYSP is part of NYPD?

[JohnnyReb]

Thanks alot Bob. I second J.P. for results from your log book.

I read the Glock annual book and learned about the NYSP testing GAP 37s but was not sure of the change from the 9 m.m. And I don't know if NYSP is part of NYPD?

Its not. NYPD is New York city's police department. New York State Police (NYSP) are the State of New York's police agency which primary mission is traffic enforcement.

[pimuk]

Its not. NYPD is New York city's police department. New York State Police (NYSP) are the State of New York's police agency which primary mission is traffic enforcement.

Thanks alot JR.

[JohnnyReb]

Thanks alot JR.

You are welcome.

[Glock17JHP]

Interesting, with Glocks I find myself more accurate with the .45's than the 9mm's or .40's.

I have a brother-in-law who is deadly accurate with his Glock 30 sub-compact .45 ACP... he keeps Glock 21 13-round mags as his back-up mags...

His wife went to a CCW class, and had a Colt Mustang .380... the instructor noticed she was having trouble with the safety, etc. because she is left-handed, so he suggested she use a Glock, also. The only one she was willing to try was her hubby's Glock 30...

Guess what... she shot a better score than him, even though it was his pistol!!!

I would advise anybody... go with the caliber/pistol that suits you the best... whether that is 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP... or any other caliber... so long as the caliber/pistol are truly suitable to the task...