Difference between Winchester 147gr 9mm?

[GuyWithGun]

Bought a box of Winchester White Box 147gr HP ammo the other night because Wally World didn't have anything else. Got me to thinking... What is the difference between that and the 147 gr Ranger ammo?

Any input?

[betyourlife]

For one, ranger is bonded.

[Boris Bush]

That is the single most killing round I have used in any pistol I ever owned. On the farm there was alot of critters in need of killing and this cheap round did wonders on 'coons, 'chucks, feral cats, wild dogs, coyotes, rabbits (eaten). But most important I killed a fair share of whitetail deer with this round from 90-190 pounds with nary a problem. if it didn't exit, it was under the skin on the far side and never failed to expand and bone rarely slowed it down.

From time to time I carry with this load just for good ole times sake, but I can get Ranger SXTs for $5.00 more so I tend to get them..............

Is that what you were looking for? If it makes you feel better, the few I put on paper also did very well, printing nice small groups for me.

[GuyWithGun]

That is the single most killing round I have used in any pistol I ever owned. On the farm there was alot of critters in need of killing and this cheap round did wonders on 'coons, 'chucks, feral cats, wild dogs, coyotes, rabbits (eaten). But most important I killed a fair share of whitetail deer with this round from 90-190 pounds with nary a problem. if it didn't exit, it was under the skin on the far side and never failed to expand and bone rarely slowed it down.

From time to time I carry with this load just for good ole times sake, but I can get Ranger SXTs for $5.00 more so I tend to get them..............

Is that what you were looking for? If it makes you feel better, the few I put on paper also did very well, printing nice small groups for me.

Actually, was more interested in if it was the same bullet stuffed into a cheaper load.

Is it?

[von Schulenberg]

To answer your question, no. It's not the same bullet. The Winchester White Box ammo has a pedigree going all the way back to the Olin Super Match round.

[Boris Bush]

Actually, was more interested in if it was the same bullet stuffed into a cheaper load.

Is it?



von Schulenberg already answered, but it is one darn reliable expander and killed better than some +P+ 115s I used on the smaller critters. Infact when I used 115 +P+ on 'coons of the larger sort I would get shallow penetration and spectacular failures that needed 2-3 rounds to stop the critter (that weighed a mere 18-20 pounds!). I never had that problem with the 147 cheap WWB load........

[novaDAK]

The bullet used in the 9mm WWB JHPs is simply the Silvertip HP minus the silver coating. They look and perform exactly the same even :)

[hotpig]

Bought a box of Winchester White Box 147gr HP ammo the other night because Wally World didn't have anything else. Got me to thinking... What is the difference between that and the 147 gr Ranger ammo?

Any input?


There are several Ranger 147gr loads but the white box is not related. The closest that it may come is to a load that was discontinued years ago.

The RA9147HP may have been real similar. The round was discontinued when I first started selling Ranger ammo so I never actually seen the stuff in person.

[Glock17JHP]

I have both loads.
I use the WWB for practice/plinking... Rangers for 'serious' work...
The jackets are worlds apart from eachother, starting with the reverse-taper jacket on the Ranger...
WWB was not designed for barrier penetration/FBI Protocol performance, Rangers are...
Even if bare gelatin performance were similar, FBI Protocol performance would be quite different!!!

[Glock17JHP]

For one, ranger is bonded.

If we are discussing Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T), it is NOT bonded...

[Rugby]

If we are discussing Winchester Ranger 147 grain JHP (RA9T), it is NOT bonded...

That's right. RA9B is bonded. Unlike Gold Dots, not all Rangers are bonded.

[Glock17JHP]

Thanks, Rugby... good to see you here again...

[GuyWithGun]

Now that I think about it, didn't somebody post a bunch of ballistic gel photos for 9mm several months back and the plain old Win White Box did the best job of all the stuff they tested with weight retention and surface area after expansion?

Reason am so interested is, for the price, if it is functional, would be hard to beat as a regular carry round.

[Boris Bush]

Now that I think about it, didn't somebody post a bunch of ballistic gel photos for 9mm several months back and the plain old Win White Box did the best job of all the stuff they tested with weight retention and surface area after expansion?

Reason am so interested is, for the price, if it is functional, would be hard to beat as a regular carry round.

Your last sentence is dead nuts on, that is why I used it to rid the farm of unwanted critters of all sizes, and they never failed me......

I would not hesitate one second to use them if I had too....

[Merkavaboy]

Bought a box of Winchester White Box 147gr HP ammo the other night because Wally World didn't have anything else. Got me to thinking... What is the difference between that and the 147 gr Ranger ammo?

Any input?

The differences between the Winchester USA (WWB) economy ammo and the law enforcement designed Ranger T-series are as different as night & day.

The Ranger SXT loads are way more reliable in expanding in human tissue than the WWB 147JHP.

The WWB 147JHP is the exact same bullet that was used by the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout when they blamed the 115STHP as being the main failure of stopping one of the killers. Once the FBI proclaimed the 147JHP (Olin Super Match, Type-L) as the best of the 9mm ammos, a great majority of LEA's jumped on the bandwagon and started using the same subsonic 147JHP's by Winchester.

At least one very well known firearms instructor and expert on the use of deadly force has written on several occassions that he had seen more 147JHP than not, from ALL makers, dangerously overpenetrate it's human target. Overpenetration is NOT what ones wants in a self-defense handgun round.

The poor performing Winchester 147JHP bullet continues to be loaded by said company and markets it as "personal protection" ammunition. IMO, using this specific load, with it's documented history of overpenetrating and injuring and even killing innocents who are struck by these bullets would place the user of such ammo in an extreme liability situation. Just like shooting ball ammo with it's history of dangerously overpenetrating, the Win. 147JHP USA (WWB) loads should be avoided as being a viable self-defense load. There are much better 147JHP loads that perform exceptionally well and above the Winchester JHP design. Pay the few dollars more for quality designed SD ammo and leave the WWB stuff for practice, not for life-saving self-defense situations.

[Boris Bush]

The differences between the Winchester USA (WWB) economy ammo and the law enforcement designed Ranger T-series are as different as night & day.

The Ranger SXT loads are way more reliable in expanding in human tissue than the WWB 147JHP.

The WWB 147JHP is the exact same bullet that was used by the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout when they blamed the 115STHP as being the main failure of stopping one of the killers. Once the FBI proclaimed the 147JHP (Olin Super Match, Type-L) as the best of the 9mm ammos, a great majority of LEA's jumped on the bandwagon and started using the same subsonic 147JHP's by Winchester.

At least one very well known firearms instructor and expert on the use of deadly force has written on several occassions that he had seen more 147JHP than not, from ALL makers, dangerously overpenetrate it's human target. Overpenetration is NOT what ones wants in a self-defense handgun round.

The poor performing Winchester 147JHP bullet continues to be loaded by said company and markets it as "personal protection" ammunition. IMO, using this specific load, with it's documented history of overpenetrating and injuring and even killing innocents who are struck by these bullets would place the user of such ammo in an extreme liability situation. Just like shooting ball ammo with it's history of dangerously overpenetrating, the Win. 147JHP USA (WWB) loads should be avoided as being a viable self-defense load. There are much better 147JHP loads that perform exceptionally well and above the Winchester JHP design. Pay the few dollars more for quality designed SD ammo and leave the WWB stuff for practice, not for life-saving self-defense situations.

There will always be two sides to every thing. From what you said, a round that might not penetrate enough to do the job, and might get you killed for lack of ballistic performance would be a better outcome than a round that will get the job done. Even at close ranges chances are you will miss atleast one time, what you have in the gun is moot at that point. From what I have seen (shooting live flesh) all 147s are going to penetrate "too much" so to recomend one over the WWB 147 is inane. If someone is worried about killing innocents via over penetration or missing then they need to reastrain from shooting when innocents are behind the BG. A little pointer if this does happen to you is to drop to a knee and shoot on a upward angle. We practice this and I have seen it used. Sure the guy on the other side might get some fleshy matter on themselves but they can continue to fight on.

For every tactical problem there is some kind of solution. You just need to learn them and use good ammo.

If the OP wants to use it, it will not make him more liable for the simple fact of loading it. The round is good, it works and does it on a budget. What more could you ask for?

[Sniperfox]

The differences between the Winchester USA (WWB) economy ammo and the law enforcement designed Ranger T-series are as different as night & day.

The Ranger SXT loads are way more reliable in expanding in human tissue than the WWB 147JHP.

The WWB 147JHP is the exact same bullet that was used by the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout when they blamed the 115STHP as being the main failure of stopping one of the killers. Once the FBI proclaimed the 147JHP (Olin Super Match, Type-L) as the best of the 9mm ammos, a great majority of LEA's jumped on the bandwagon and started using the same subsonic 147JHP's by Winchester.

At least one very well known firearms instructor and expert on the use of deadly force has written on several occassions that he had seen more 147JHP than not, from ALL makers, dangerously overpenetrate it's human target. Overpenetration is NOT what ones wants in a self-defense handgun round.

The poor performing Winchester 147JHP bullet continues to be loaded by said company and markets it as "personal protection" ammunition. IMO, using this specific load, with it's documented history of overpenetrating and injuring and even killing innocents who are struck by these bullets would place the user of such ammo in an extreme liability situation. Just like shooting ball ammo with it's history of dangerously overpenetrating, the Win. 147JHP USA (WWB) loads should be avoided as being a viable self-defense load. There are much better 147JHP loads that perform exceptionally well and above the Winchester JHP design. Pay the few dollars more for quality designed SD ammo and leave the WWB stuff for practice, not for life-saving self-defense situations.
I was under the impression that the FBI was using 115 gr. Silvertips in their 9m/m's in that incident.

[Dandapani]

I use the WWB PP 147 JHP in my carry snub. It works better out of the short barrel in my wet pack testing.

[Tilley]

On the farm there was alot of critters in need of killing and this cheap round did wonders on 'coons, 'chucks, feral cats, wild dogs, coyotes, rabbits (eaten).
:pig: :holysheep: :dog: :50cal: "We hate you..."

[Glock17JHP]

I was under the impression that the FBI was using 115 gr. Silvertips in their 9m/m's in that incident.

You are under the correct impression... that is what they were using...

[Glock17JHP]

The WWB 147JHP is the exact same bullet that was used by the FBI after the infamous Miami shootout when they blamed the 115STHP as being the main failure of stopping one of the killers. Once the FBI proclaimed the 147JHP (Olin Super Match, Type-L) as the best of the 9mm ammos, a great majority of LEA's jumped on the bandwagon and started using the same subsonic 147JHP's by Winchester.

At least one very well known firearms instructor and expert on the use of deadly force has written on several occassions that he had seen more 147JHP than not, from ALL makers, dangerously overpenetrate it's human target. Overpenetration is NOT what ones wants in a self-defense handgun round.

The poor performing Winchester 147JHP bullet continues to be loaded by said company and markets it as "personal protection" ammunition. IMO, using this specific load, with it's documented history of overpenetrating and injuring and even killing innocents who are struck by these bullets would place the user of such ammo in an extreme liability situation. Just like shooting ball ammo with it's history of dangerously overpenetrating, the Win. 147JHP USA (WWB) loads should be avoided as being a viable self-defense load. There are much better 147JHP loads that perform exceptionally well and above the Winchester JHP design. Pay the few dollars more for quality designed SD ammo and leave the WWB stuff for practice, not for life-saving self-defense situations.

Basically wrong on the Miami incident, wrong as far as the 9mm load used (see my previous post above)... You are mixing together 115 grain Silvertips, 147 grain Olin Super Match 'sub-sonics' and 147 grain non 'T-series' SXT's...

Good job!!! :rofl:

Is Mas Ayoob the firearms instructor and 'expert' you are referring to? It has to be...

[von Schulenberg]

It was only a matter of time before someone posted a dissenting opinion. :supergrin:

Horses for courses, I suppose.

[GuyWithGun]

Just out of curiosity, has anybody besides Boris shot anything furry with any of the rounds anybody has talked about?

Reason I ask is, last year I killed a squirrel with my sidearm at a range too close to use the shotgun for. I was using the same M&P with 115 grn Corbon ammo. The round basically hit the animal in the mid section (guts) and desentigrated... huge wound channel in a small critter with little penetration. Didn't mess up the meat too bad to eat it, so didn't get bent out of shape about it at the time. About a week later I was with a ladyfriend at a theater, at night in a strange town, and in a largely vacant parking lot when a guy boxed me in my parking spot as I was trying to pull out and got out of his car. Kinda scared the heck out of me. I got out to confront him (and draw fire away from my vehicle and friend should it occur) and after basically yelling at the guy to move his car three times, he eventually got back in and pulled off. To this day, I have no idea what was on his mind, but if I would have had to shoot him, I would have had to shoot through both side windows or the roof of his car (and maybe a window) to get to his torso. At the time, had the same Corbons in the gun... would not have made it through either based on my "Squirrel Ballistic Media" test. Stopped carying them the next day.

You can talk about ballistic test this, that, and the other, but most folks don't shoot many things with a carry gun or carry gun ammo. As on that wonderful "One-shot Stop Myth" sticky at the top of the forum, shot placement matter the most out of anything. Bullet construction is about 3rd down on the list. As far as I'm concerned, about any modern jacked hollow point is good enough if propperly placed. My original question was geared more to the load and not the round... sorry if I didn't make that clear. I have never had a WWB not go bang or cycle cleanly in thousands of rounds fired from several different calibers and guns, but it does beg the question, if the bullet is the same, what is the difference in the WWB and the "Premium" Ranger load.

If they are different bullets, they are different bullets, but am not sure that makes me less willing to carry them.

[J.P.]

I while back I did some wetpack testing with the WWB 147grJHP.
The expansion and penetration was good, but the one area that concerned me was failure to adequately expand after denim. That particular round was more prone to clogging in those tests than most other 147gr offerings with the exception of Hydrashock.
IMO, there are better choices than the 147rg WWB, including Gold Dot (I really like DoubleTap's version),HST,Federal bonded, and Ranger.
However, if the WWB 147gr was the only thing available to me, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over it...

[unit1069]

About a week later I was with a ladyfriend at a theater, at night in a strange town, and in a largely vacant parking lot when a guy boxed me in my parking spot as I was trying to pull out and got out of his car. Kinda scared the heck out of me. I got out to confront him (and draw fire away from my vehicle and friend should it occur) and after basically yelling at the guy to move his car three times, he eventually got back in and pulled off. To this day, I have no idea what was on his mind, but if I would have had to shoot him, I would have had to shoot through both side windows or the roof of his car (and maybe a window) to get to his torso. At the time, had the same Corbons in the gun... would not have made it through either based on my "Squirrel Ballistic Media" test. Stopped carying them the next day.

I usually carry a 9mm with a 3" barrel in urban settings and carry Federal 124-grain LE Tactical Bonded JHP for the reason you've stated and also because with a short-barrel pistol I think bonded makes penetration more reliable --- both barrier and other types of penetration.

You can talk about ballistic test this, that, and the other, but most folks don't shoot many things with a carry gun or carry gun ammo. As on that wonderful "One-shot Stop Myth" sticky at the top of the forum, shot placement matter the most out of anything. Bullet construction is about 3rd down on the list. As far as I'm concerned, about any modern jacked hollow point is good enough if propperly placed. My original question was geared more to the load and not the round... sorry if I didn't make that clear. I have never had a WWB not go bang or cycle cleanly in thousands of rounds fired from several different calibers and guns, but it does beg the question, if the bullet is the same, what is the difference in the WWB and the "Premium" Ranger load.

If they are different bullets, they are different bullets, but am not sure that makes me less willing to carry them.

I don't know the answer, but I've read posts from more than just a few people who claim the WWB 147-grain JHP is nearly as effective in tests as Winchester's mega-bucks primo, premium ammo. I don't shoot 147-grain ammo in either of my 9mm pistols so I have no dog in that fight.

[GuyWithGun]

I while back I did some wetpack testing with the WWB 147grJHP.
The expansion and penetration was good, but the one area that concerned me was failure to adequately expand after denim. That particular round was more prone to clogging in those tests than most other 147gr offerings with the exception of Hydrashock.
IMO, there are better choices than the 147rg WWB, including Gold Dot (I really like DoubleTap's version),HST,Federal bonded, and Ranger.
However, if the WWB 147gr was the only thing available to me, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over it...

Please desribe your wet paper test. I have seen several methods, most of whish involve a tub of water and a bunch of news papers with various forms of clothing drapped over it after a good soaking.

Personally, I couldn't care less about over penetration... better too much than not enough. I would rather be in court over the highly unlikely event my bullet went through a bad guy and hit somebody in the back ground than dead because my bullet didn't go through a wall/window/door/bone I had to shoot through. The bit about the failure to expand after passing through certain materials does bother me though. I know there are alot of 9mm rounds that have that issue, but not sure how to mesh good penetration after clogging a HP with fabric. Would have to do some home testing to get my mind right with that one way or the other.

[D-GLOCK17]

That is the single most killing round I have used in any pistol I ever owned. On the farm there was alot of critters in need of killing and this cheap round did wonders on 'coons, 'chucks, feral cats, wild dogs, coyotes, rabbits (eaten). But most important I killed a fair share of whitetail deer with this round from 90-190 pounds with nary a problem. if it didn't exit, it was under the skin on the far side and never failed to expand and bone rarely slowed it down.

From time to time I carry with this load just for good ole times sake, but I can get Ranger SXTs for $5.00 more so I tend to get them..............

Is that what you were looking for? If it makes you feel better, the few I put on paper also did very well, printing nice small groups for me.

Just curious, What firearm/barrel length do you use?

[Glock17JHP]

As on that wonderful "One-shot Stop Myth" sticky at the top of the forum, shot placement matter the most out of anything. Bullet construction is about 3rd down on the list. As far as I'm concerned, about any modern jacked hollow point is good enough if propperly placed.

You can place bullets well all day long, but if they don't go deeply enough to reliably reach the vitals... you won't stop the threat quickly enough to survive...

Shot placement should occur AFTER you load your pistol... and if you have not loaded your pistol with ammunition that is up to the task... you may want to think again about taking that shot... :)

[J.P.]

Please desribe your wet paper test. I have seen several methods, most of whish involve a tub of water and a bunch of news papers with various forms of clothing drapped over it after a good soaking.

Personally, I couldn't care less about over penetration... better too much than not enough. I would rather be in court over the highly unlikely event my bullet went through a bad guy and hit somebody in the back ground than dead because my bullet didn't go through a wall/window/door/bone I had to shoot through. The bit about the failure to expand after passing through certain materials does bother me though. I know there are alot of 9mm rounds that have that issue, but not sure how to mesh good penetration after clogging a HP with fabric. Would have to do some home testing to get my mind right with that one way or the other.

I've posted pics of the tests here many times over the years but I don't know if they are still searchable.
Some GT members contributed various ammo on a few occasions.
With the way I prepared the newspapers, I am getting penetration numbers that are very close to gel.
It's been a while since I've done any more of this kind of testing but I probably will again someday.

I agree that more penetration is probably better than less.
It seems that most of todays rounds are optimized to generally fall within the same range....sure, there might be exceptions. Bullet construction

[Boris Bush]

Just curious, What firearm/barrel length do you use?

I used several different 9mms. I mostly used a SIG P226 and a few times I used a P225. So it was 4.4" and 3.9"