Full auto pistols

[glockbk]

I've heard about full auto handguns like the Glock 18 (I'd kill to have one!) or the Beretta 93R. Considering their durability and incredibly small size, does anyone know any military units (US or foreign) that use either for close-quarters combat? Or would they lean towards the UZI or Heckler & Koch MP5K?

[bac1023]

They seem very impractical to me, but I'm no expert on the subject.

[Forgoten214]

Tec-9?

[bac1023]

Tec-9?

Yeah, but I think he is talking about traditional handguns with a full auto option.

[Forgoten214]

Yeah, but I think he is talking about traditional handguns with a full auto option.

Ahh yes, I am sure someone will mention the Glock 18 or Beretta 93R

[method]

Ahh yes, I am sure someone will mention the Glock 18 or Beretta 93R

Like glockbk?

[thedonn007]

I've heard about full auto handguns like the Glock 18 (I'd kill to have one!) or the Beretta 93R. Considering their durability and incredibly small size, does anyone know any military units (US or foreign) that use either for close-quarters combat? Or would they lean towards the UZI or Heckler & Koch MP5K?

I do not think that the 93r is full auto, it fires in three round burst.

[hIGH_aND_mIGHTY]

There is the first polymer pistol. It was called the VP70 by H&K. It had to be attached to its shoulder stock/holster before having select fire capabilities though. That puts it in the SBR area but still...

[MrMurphy]

They are called machine pistols. A pistol, that with the addition of a stock typically, fires full auto.

The classic example is the Schnellfeur variant of the Mauser Broomhandle (which actually handled fairly well from what I understand). The Russian Stechkin is popular with Russians (the few I've spoken to that served) though underpowered somewhat. The Glock 18 is in limited service here and there with various Special Forces type units.

The Beretta 93R is in very limited service (never seen one myself, but I know they have access to them) with the Italian Carabinieri, their military police/gendarmerie/everything else (they are technically military and deploy but at home also act as a police force and other things, and have a Delta Force type unit as well). The 93R replaced the 951 from Beretta (a full auto version of the old M1951 Brigadier like you see Saddam shoot in some pics).

There have been unit-armorer-built 1911 machine pistols from WW1 (seen pics..... 25 round mags, foregrip and wire stock) for trench use.

The VP70 had the 3-round burst with the stock option.

They see very limited use for certain roles, primarily bodyguards repelling a mass assault (G18 being very useful in that role as it's extremely controllable, apparently a few get used for that role), some countries used to issue them to tank crews and pilots. The Czech Skorpion (.32 ACP, 20 round magazine, pistol sized with a folding stock, but really a very small submachine gun) was issued for that, in a belt holster.

With the size of subguns these days and even rifles (there are 8" barreled M4s in 5.56 ou t there you can wear in a shoulder holster), there is little, except for the VIP role a machine pistol could do that a micro-SMG like a Micro Uzi, Para Micro Uzi, MP5K or MP5K-PDW, HK MP7, Steyr TMP (Now the Bruegger & Thornet MP9 I think they call it) or others could not do better, with more accuracy, more controllability, and nearly as good concealability.

[JNKIRK1974]

Can you say......"spray and pray"!

That's all they are good for. Plus, the magazine is emptied in record time.

[JNKIRK1974]

I've heard about full auto handguns like the Glock 18 (I'd kill to have one!) or the Beretta 93R. Considering their durability and incredibly small size, does anyone know any military units (US or foreign) that use either for close-quarters combat? Or would they lean towards the UZI or Heckler & Koch MP5K?

They would definitely opt for the HK or the UZI first. The full-auto handguns are ridiculous in my opinion.

[CAcop]

In the end it is still just a pistol and a pistol is just to hold you over until you can get to a rifle or shotgun.

Take a look at how many HSLD units have given up on MP5s as being the bees knees. Instead they go for M4s and other rifle caliber weapons. So why would they even think about using select fire pistols when they don't want to use subguns anymore?

[mp5a3]

I've tried shooting my MP5 on full auto like a pistol (not using stock) and even on small bursts it's very uncontrollable. I can't imagine shooting a .45 like that. No wonder gangsters with Mac 10's don't hit their targets on driveby's.

[HiVelSword]

Can you say......"spray and pray"!

That's all they are good for. Plus, the magazine is emptied in record time.

In all fairness, I've fired an M-11 on occasion. I remembered what Pete Kokalis once said about it. How it's 1,200 rpm cyclic rate was too difficult to manage for short controlled busts.

Well, I really don't mean to brag but my first time out I was getting 2-4 round bursts with it. I was actually wondering when the hell the mag was going to run dry!

Of course the second mag I just held down the trigger and yeah, "one Mississippi, two Mississ...empty. :supergrin:

[DFin]

I read that U.S. troops were using subguns to fire from inside their humvee's at close quarter combatants. I recall seeing a photo of soldiers in a HV with a Sterling smg sitting on the dash in front of the driver for this purpose. It seems that a Glock 18 would be quicker to deploy (than an M-4) from a cramped HV at close range and if firing controllable bursts you could hit a combatant with more rounds in less time than with a semiauto pistol.

[DFin]

If given the choice between a G-18 or a G-17 who would not take the G-18? I'd take the 18 just in case I might need the full auto capability. Just exercise prudent fire control. At the very least it can do the same thing as a 17.

[eddief4]

If given the choice between a G-18 or a G-17 who would not take the G-18? I'd take the 18 just in case I might need the full auto capability. Just exercise prudent fire control. At the very least it can do the same thing as a 17.



Damn right i would. after all, i think you could shoot it semi auto.



besides.....they would be FUN:supergrin:

[nick__45]

you got pick up as many and as much of these full auto pistols before they are all banned. dc goonerment has decide to ban semi and full auto handguns as part of their update gun control. while you at it, pick up a few revolver as they may be viewed as semi auto.

rant over. back to topic.

i wouldn't want a full auto pistol but i would love to get a 3 shot burst glock 18. i would get a 6 or even 8 inches barrel to maximize the effect of the 9mm rounds. i figure a nice tri-star pattern on the bg home intruder or wood predator when i squeeze the trigger is a welcome illustration.

[moeman]

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/beretta93r-1.jpg

Looks sweet huh?

[thedonn007]

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/beretta93r-1.jpg

Looks sweet huh?

I wonder if i could find that barrel for my 92fs?

[JNKIRK1974]

I wonder if i could find that barrel for my 92fs?

Too Hans Solo for my taste!

[glockbk]

I read that U.S. troops were using subguns to fire from inside their humvee's at close quarter combatants. I recall seeing a photo of soldiers in a HV with a Sterling smg sitting on the dash in front of the driver for this purpose. It seems that a Glock 18 would be quicker to deploy (than an M-4) from a cramped HV at close range and if firing controllable bursts you could hit a combatant with more rounds in less time than with a semiauto pistol.

That's my thinking too. BTW, I've never heard anyone say that the 93R is burst fire only. If that's true, then do military users have it converted to full auto? BTW, some people have a weird tendency to think that somehow a larger weapon makes a 9mm cartridge stronger. That's just another Brady lie. The same 9mm cartridge fired from a Glock 17 won't be any more powerful than the same one from a 33.

[Rusty Phillips]

sure would love to find some way to get a 2 shot burst in a service handgun

even better if joe civilian could own it

gives new meaning to doubletap

[sdfhpson]

The VP70 shoots around 2200 rounds a minute! - Where the 93R shoots around 300 I believe... quite a difference! The G18 shoots about 1400, if I remember right...

[Fear Night]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNzYcXPJNnE

[bno762]

for all of yall sayn how fast you'd run out of ammo firing full auto. I guess yall never saw the movie with Martin Lawrence where he is a security guard and has a g18. It takes forever to run that thing dry! They dont make that stuff up in movies do they?

[MrMurphy]

The Beretta 93R shown in the picture above has a selector lever. 1 dot= semi 3 dots= burst.

[briansp82593]

lets not forget the FA CZ 75
http://www.czub.cz/get_img.php?img=img/CZ_75_FA.jpg&width=450
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=9&ids=36&idz=228&lang=en

[eddief4]

lets not forget the FA CZ 75
http://www.czub.cz/get_img.php?img=img/CZ_75_FA.jpg&width=450
http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idp=9&ids=36&idz=228&lang=en


:drool:

[Glockdude1]

I wonder if i could find that barrel for my 92fs?

The entire top end of a 93R will fit a 92FS. (yes, it would be legal, hence no 3rd burst). From time to time 93R parts are for sale. The last 93R top end I saw for sale, was on the Beretta forum and it sold for $500.

:cool:

[MrMurphy]

I'd forgotten about the CZ75 Auto. Not very common, i was thinking of the more known machine pistols.

[magiaaron]

Top shooters CAN keep a G18 on target (practical shots, not tight groups), but... I've not shot enough to do it. ;)

Anyway, I think the G18 is meant for touching-distance awesomeness, anyway.

-magiaaron

[g300d]

Some people, somewhere, had need for a full auto pistol enough times to get the big companies like HK, CZ, and Glock to make em.

They'd be VERY specialized situations though, and I can't think of one off the top of my head.

They're loads of fun though and I wouldn't mind having one. :cool:

[Forgoten214]

Steyr TMP or how about the Ingram Mac10/11s?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_TMP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC-10

Anyone?

[MrMurphy]

Those are both submachine guns.

[Javelin]

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgpp30041+say-hello-to-my-little-friend-al-pacino-scarface-poster.jpg

[JMS]

They seem very impractical to me, but I'm no expert on the subject.

If it was a 1911 auto you would be :rofl:

[glooooock]

Forget the 9mm , its seems like most entry team sorts use a short -super short M-4s.
With tons of mags -parts -rails -lights available ,,, anything else would be incompatible.

[AFshooter]

I think the F/A CZ was the first use of the front mounted mag/ vertical grip.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/cz75fa.jpg

[UniversalBrow06]

Ever since I saw Face Off, Matrix Reloaded, and Underworld, I've wanted one. But realistically, I don't think anyone including a responsible agency would find them practical. I'm guessing the first day fully-auto pistols go into wide distribution will be about the time agencies find Glocks too simple and boring.

On a side note, I've always wondered why FN has never made a Five seveN fully auto version. Low recoil... as high as 30 round capacity... if it had a slow rate of fire, it could be at least on par with a G18.

[Orangelo]

They'd be VERY specialized situations though, and I can't think of one off the top of my head.


Diplomatic security. They have to carry respectable firepower in case of trouble, but still look good in a suit/tux and not have a SMG/carbine sticking out of their pants.

[Glockdude1]

On a side note, I've always wondered why FN has never made a Five seveN fully auto version.

I'll bet a FN engineer has one to play with.

:cool:

[Forgoten214]

Those are both submachine guns.

No they are Machine pistols.

[MrMurphy]

Machine pistols are pistols modified for full auto.

The TMP is factory built as a submachine gun. While it is intended for more or less the machine pistol market, you're not gonna find many "holsters" for it....it's intended to be worn slung under the arm.

Ditto the Ingram. Started out as a "room broom" cheap, mass production submachine gun , ended up being used more in the MP5K type situation. Neither was ever intended to be a pistol (though Steyr did make a pistol version of the TMP, the SPP later on).

[wunder9]

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/wunder9/g18ma.jpg:supergrin:

[Forgoten214]

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n318/wunder9/g18ma.jpg:supergrin:

Is this yours??

[Jack Worm]

This one belongs to a friend of mine;

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1804.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1806.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1807.jpg

[Forgoten214]

This one belongs to a friend of mine;

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1804.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1806.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Jack_Worm/Glock1807.jpg

Ouch, You must not live in america :supergrin:

[TacticalBling]

The VP70 shoots around 2200 rounds a minute! - Where the 93R shoots around 300 I believe... quite a difference! The G18 shoots about 1400, if I remember right...

The devil is in the details, though: The VP70 has an awesome rate of fire...for 3 rounds. It was designed so the third round would be going downrange before the recoil could hit the shooter enough to move the point-of-aim--hence the huge on-paper ROF. It wasn't designed to spray, it was designed to make one ragged hole with 3 rounds every time the trigger was pulled.

I could be wrong, but I always figured machine pistols were designed for firefights at VERY close range, in VERY enclosed areas. Basically, in-the-same-room fighting. Most armies don't do enough of that often enough to really need such a specialized weapon.

[Jack Worm]

I´m from Sweden Forgoten214 and the owner of the gun is a collector. He got a few other fullautotoys as HK G3, FN FNC, BAR etc.

/JW

[wunder9]

Forgoten214,

Unfortunately it's not mine. Owner wouldn't sell it so I just borrowed to take pictures.

Jack Worm,

Nice 18!!!

[diamondmike]

Most any gun with a hammer can be made full-auto.

[40Pirate]

Most any gun with a hammer can be made full-auto.

http://www.fss-g.com/index2.htm

:whistling:

[fnfalman]

You gotta do it the commies way: Stetchkin.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/aps-1.jpg

[Glockdude1]

http://www.fss-g.com/index2.htm

:whistling:

Too bad you can't just go to the site and order it. :steamed:


:supergrin:

[glockman23]

Glock 18 all the way. Beats the hell out of a MAC-10. Just be careful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

[Glockdude1]

Glock 18 all the way. Beats the hell out of a MAC-10. Just be careful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fcg543Jow

That guy in the video let his left hand go in front of the barrel. If he would have used a proper 2 handed grip on that weapon, he would not have shot his left hand.

[glockman23]

That guy in the video let his left hand go in front of the barrel. If he would have used a proper 2 handed grip on that weapon, he would not have shot his left hand.

correct!