changed my mind about the 9mm vs .45 debate

[taters]

i was of the belief that if you carried a 9mm for self defence instead of a .45 you were seriously short changing yourself. i own 2 pistols a glock 21 and a sig 220. i just purchased a s&w 38special +p. i took it to the range and just got back.... i took with me 2 half gallon jugs filled to the brim with water....first i took a magtech 38 special round.158 gr. ...cost .30 cents a round. i fired it into one of the gallon jugs of water. not much of an effect. then i took a .38special+p 110gr jhp cor bon round. cost $1.50 a round. i fired it into the other jug of water....well, talk about night and day. the cor bon round blew the jug all to hell. shattered it in 3 places knocked it off the table. i was blown away.....now my point.......if a .38spl +p 110 gr corbon round could do that kind of damage, well ,what if i put a corbon 9mm jhp round in it. so i am now convinced if one carries a 9mm with 9mm+p from corbon ,one is prepared for any self defence situation. in short i stand corrected and i have changed my mind. but one has got to carry barnes dpx , cobon +p jhp and then one might even be better prepared than someone with a .45 only because of more ammo....taters

[LABMAN]

I'm not going to go down the road about being attacked by water filled jugs...But, I will say again for the zillionth time; The only thing that really matters is SHOT PLACEMENT! A cor-bon 9mm, or whatever in the arm or a 38 in center of the chest. Hummmm, I'm thinking the center of the chest is more effective. Shoot what you want, whatever caliber you want, but be able to make an effective shot, and that means center of mass...

[9mm Luger]

Labman is dead right, SHOT PLACEMENT is the key, I don't care what caliber pistol you are shooting. If you have a .45 and can't hit the broadside of a barn with it, it's very useless to you. Take the same person with a 9mm hitting the COM on target now you've got something you can defend yourself with.

I have never felt under gunned carrying my 9mm, far better than no gun at all. Some people prefer a .45 or a .40 different strokes for different folks, shoot what YOU want to shoot and more importantly what you can shoot accurately.

Let the caliber war begin! :whistling: :supergrin:

[Bren]

You changed your mind about 9mm vs. .45 for self defense based on the damage a .38 spl+p did to a plastic water jug with a single shot???:upeyes: Now whether I agree with you or not, that's about the silliest reason for changing your mind that I ahve ever heard/seen.

[Bren]

I'm not going to go down the road about being attacked by water filled jugs...But, I will say again for the zillionth time; The only thing that really matters is SHOT PLACEMENT! A cor-bon 9mm, or whatever in the arm or a 38 in center of the chest. Hummmm, I'm thinking the center of the chest is more effective. Shoot what you want, whatever caliber you want, but be able to make an effective shot, and that means center of mass...

Great. If we could do that relaibaly in a fight, everybody including the police would be carrying .22' s - they're easy to shoot accurately, right? They are a leading homicide gun, so they will definitely kill people with the right shot palcement, right? So if shot placement is all that matters, do you use a .22 for self defense?

I prefer something that works as well as possible when the shot placement is wrong.

[taters]

i surrender ,,, i give up ,,,, i cry uncle...... i am done with this subject....can't win no matter what position i take.....lol:rofl:

[windplex]

i was of the belief that if you carried a 9mm for self defence instead of a .45 you were seriously short changing yourself. i own 2 pistols a glock 21 and a sig 220. i just purchased a s&w 38special +p. i took it to the range and just got back.... i took with me 2 half gallon jugs filled to the brim with water....first i took a magtech 38 special round.158 gr. ...cost .30 cents a round. i fired it into one of the gallon jugs of water. not much of an effect. then i took a .38special+p 110gr jhp cor bon round. cost $1.50 a round. i fired it into the other jug of water....well, talk about night and day. the cor bon round blew the jug all to hell. shattered it in 3 places knocked it off the table. i was blown away.....now my point.......if a .38spl +p 110 gr corbon round could do that kind of damage, well ,what if i put a corbon 9mm jhp round in it. so i am now convinced if one carries a 9mm with 9mm+p from corbon ,one is prepared for any self defence situation. in short i stand corrected and i have changed my mind. but one has got to carry barnes dpx , cobon +p jhp and then one might even be better prepared than someone with a .45 only because of more ammo....taters

glad you are open minded and did some testing.

curious why you then concluded a round NOT tested was suddenly the answer?

why not test the round you "decided" on before deciding -- one never knows how tests will go.

[robertwh]

I agree that marksmanship and shot placement are the main thing but it is not the only thing. If that were the only thing that really matters we could all be carrying 22 pistols with stinger hollowpoints and be calling it good.

Personally if I were in a shoot out with a bad guy I would much rather have my G-36 or 21 45 ACP in my hand as opposed to my 19 9mm. I shot both my 36 and my 19 about an hour ago. Give me a 45 over a nine anytime. But... to each his own.

[EAGLESFANPHILA]

I'm not going to go down the road about being attacked by water filled jugs...But, I will say again for the zillionth time; The only thing that really matters is SHOT PLACEMENT! A cor-bon 9mm, or whatever in the arm or a 38 in center of the chest. Hummmm, I'm thinking the center of the chest is more effective. Shoot what you want, whatever caliber you want, but be able to make an effective shot, and that means center of mass...
I think I've ready a story where a water-filled jugged beat the crap out someone but was stopped by a G19.
:upeyes:

:tongueout:

[SouthernBoyVA]

The danger with a round whose bullet expands too rapidly is it could expend all of its energy in the first 4-6+ inches and not range deep enough into the body cavity to attack vital components of the assailants body. Yes, this will create a very painful and perhaps fatal wound once the perp bleeds out. But in the mean time, he could be of the mind to do you some very serious hurt.

Better to have a round with a bullet that does expand nicely and continues to travel well into the body where it has a better chance of hitting meaningful stuff. While still no guarantee, you stand a better chance of ending the attack more quickly with this type of round.

[LABMAN]

Great..... So if shot placement is all that matters, do you use a .22 for self defense?

The problem I have with your .22 choice is this: IT'S RIMFIRE. If you have ever shot much 22, you know from time to time you get misfires and this is due to the priming compound not going all the way around the rim..Misfires occur with 22 far more than with centerfire. A 22 will kill people, but they may not die for 5 mins or 5 days, lack of stopping power, lack of energy, lack of mass of the bullet. All that said, If your shot placement is in the arm as my post said and my shot is in the chest, I will win even if I use a 22. I've known of a case where the perp was shot point blank in the heart with a 110 gr 357 mag and still ran about 16 yards while receiving 2 more rounds, he bled out causing death, not the destroyed heart. Shot placement is to shooting what location is to buying property!

Shot placement comes with training while under some sort of stress & lots of shooting. Run wind sprints for 5 mins and then try to hit target. Thats as close to fear caused breathing and heart rate as one can get target shooting..

[sigcalcatrant]

Personally if I were in a shoot out with a bad guy I would much rather have my G-36 or 21 45 ACP in my hand as opposed to my 19 9mm. But... to each his own.When you run out of bullets and the BG is still standing, and you figure out the .45's don't work any better than 9mm, you'll be thinking "DANG, I shoulda brought my G19!". Just playing devil's advocate.

[Blitzer]

Hmmmm?

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa288/Blitzer0101/BeatDeadHorse.gif

[robertwh]

When you run out of bullets and the BG is still standing, and you figure out the .45's don't work any better than 9mm, you'll be thinking "DANG, I shoulda brought my G19!". Just playing devil's advocate.

You little devil!:rofl:

But... The BG won't be standing and I won't be out of bullets...:supergrin:

[Dandapani]

The human body is not filled 100% with water.:tongueout::rofl::wavey:

[roymail]

DoubleTap Speer Gold Dot 124gr.+P 9mm... and empty the gun into the perp. Thoracic triangle... between the boobs and the throat!

And, btw, since your won't have time to aim, practice combat/point shooting. Real targets don't stand still. :supergrin:

[jonusmcg]

i surrender ,,, i give up ,,,, i cry uncle...... i am done with this subject....can't win no matter what position i take.....lol:rofl:

Don't worry man. There are some people who are hell-bent on carrying ONLY .45 acp. Is it because they are compensating for a lack of something???

Who knows...I'll take a .38 or a 9 mm because I am confident with my shot placement, even during a stressful situation. Train, train, train, and train some more. And when you are done, do some more training.

Furthermore, has anyone ever seen the devastating effects of a properly place 9mm round? It has the capability of ruining your entire day!

[magiaaron]

For all the people that are saying, "Oh! If shot placement is all that counts, then carry a .22! Blah blah blah" Well, let me start by saying that I'm a .45 man myself, but if I had my choice, I'd rather take a .45 to the arm, than a .22 to the heart.

-magiaaron

[jonusmcg]

For all the people that are saying, "Oh! If shot placement is all that counts, then carry a .22! Blah blah blah" Well, let me start by saying that I'm a .45 man myself, but if I had my choice, I'd rather take a .45 to the arm, than a .22 to the heart.

-magiaaron

well stated.

[robertwh]

For all the people that are saying, "Oh! If shot placement is all that counts, then carry a .22! Blah blah blah" Well, let me start by saying that I'm a .45 man myself, but if I had my choice, I'd rather take a .45 to the arm, than a .22 to the heart.

-magiaaron

So would I.

But I would rather take a .22 to the arm than a 45 ACP to the arm...

Shot placement is the main thing but it isn't the only thing. "Blah blah blah":wavey:

[curiousg]

I think I've ready a story where a water-filled jugged beat the crap out someone but was stopped by a G19.
:upeyes:

:tongueout:

They don't call it hard water for nothing

[robertwh]

It's interesting how shot placement can become replaced with "spray and pray" so quickly. :faint:

[LABMAN]

So would I.

But I would rather take a .22 to the arm than a 45 ACP to the arm...

Shot placement is the main thing but it isn't the only thing. "Blah blah blah":wavey:

Any personal defense course instructor that does not teach shot placement being most important should not be instructing anyone about anything...

[robertwh]

Any personal defense course instructor that does not teach shot placement being most important should not be instructing anyone about anything...

I agree I wouldn't listen to anyone who taught that shot placement and marksmenship was not the most important factor. But now back to the reality that there are other factors as well that make a real difference. :whistling:

[LABMAN]

I agree I wouldn't listen to anyone who taught that shot placement and marksmenship was not the most important factor. But now back to the reality that there are other factors as well that make a real difference. :whistling:

I agree, but how many practice without hearing protection or shoot with a increased heart rate and increased breathing & for that matter, how many practice drawing and firing with all of the above? These factors make a huge difference. Also, if someone is trying to kill you at the same time can make a even bigger difference!

[robertwh]

I agree, but how many practice without hearing protection or shoot with a increased heart rate and increased breathing & for that matter, how many practice drawing and firing with all of the above? These factors make a huge difference. Also, if someone is trying to kill you at the same time can make a even bigger difference!

Very good points and so true.

I don't shoot without hearing protection but I do practice drawing, pointing and firing my pistols as fast as I can into a target at various distances and in multiple stances. We also shoot at multiple targets while moving.

I am combat Vet and there is no duplicating in an artificial environment the terror of being shot at as far as I know. Hopefully muscle memory and hours of training will give you the control you need in that situation.

[3rdgen40]

I once shot a 55 gallon steel barrel filled with water with my 40.One shot in the center sent that barrel 30 feet in the air and blew it to pieces.Left a small crater in the ground and sent schrapnel flying about 150 feet in every direction.Luckily i was shooting from behind a boulder, 50 yards away.Ammo was Hornady 155 grain TAP FPD.Now that was impressive ! :wow:

[LABMAN]

I once shot a 55 gallon steel barrel filled with water with my 40.One shot in the center sent that barrel 30 feet in the air and blew it to pieces.Left a small crater in the ground and sent schrapnel flying about 150 feet in every direction.Luckily i was shooting from behind a boulder, 50 yards away.Ammo was Hornady 155 grain TAP FPD.Now that was impressive ! :wow:

The hand grenade inside it didn't hurt either...lol

[robertwh]

I once shot a 55 gallon steel barrel filled with water with my 40.One shot in the center sent that barrel 30 feet in the air and blew it to pieces.Left a small crater in the ground and sent schrapnel flying about 150 feet in every direction.Luckily i was shooting from behind a boulder, 50 yards away.Ammo was Hornady 155 grain TAP FPD.Now that was impressive ! :wow:

I shot a UFO that was over a mile away and it blew those space devils clear back to Alpha Centauri with a BB Gun! Mere words can't describe that experience!:wow:

[LABMAN]

Very good points and so true.

I don't shoot without hearing protection but I do practice drawing, pointing and firing my pistols as fast as I can into a target at various distances and in multiple stances. We also shoot at multiple targets while moving.

I am combat Vet and there is no duplicating in an artificial environment the terror of being shot at as far as I know. Hopefully muscle memory and hours of training will give you the control you need in that situation.

Nam, class of '68... I've been shot at too. When I taught personal defense, the only way to be close to stress was run wind sprints and get heart and breathing to near panting levels and have them shoot..You would be shocked how badly good shooters do when they are in that condition...TRAIN, TRAIN, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT! Do it as if it were Devine instruction!

[robertwh]

Nam, class of '68... I've been shot at too. When I taught personal defense, the only way to be close to stress was run wind sprints and get heart and breathing to near panting levels and have them shoot..You would be shocked how badly good shooters do when they are in that condition...TRAIN, TRAIN, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT! Do it as if it were Devine instruction!

I too am Class of 68 and Nam 69-70. Central Highlands 4th Division infantry.

[3rdgen40]

Nam, class of '68... I've been shot at too. When I taught personal defense, the only way to be close to stress was run wind sprints and get heart and breathing to near panting levels and have them shoot..You would be shocked how badly good shooters do when they are in that condition...TRAIN, TRAIN, SHOT PLACEMENT, SHOT PLACEMENT! Do it as if it were Devine instruction!
All kidding aside for a moment....I want to thank you guys for serving our country. :patriot:

[LABMAN]

To robertwh: WELCOME HOME BROTHER!

To 3rdgen40: THANKS, YOUR WELCOME.

[robertwh]

To robertwh: WELCOME HOME BROTHER!

To 3rdgen40: THANKS, YOUR WELCOME.

You too.

[luv2brode]

ok i dont want to seem like i am hi-jacking this thread just something i have been thinking.
for duty i carry a g22 been thinking of switching to a g-19, mainly just trying to cut down on rounds i have to buy, as i have a variety of calibers presently. but i hate to give up the extra little bit i may gain with the fourty.
heck i dont know maybe i am just trying to justify another gun.
naw that couldnt be it.

[LABMAN]

ok i dont want to seem like i am hi-jacking this thread just something i have been thinking.
for duty i carry a g22 been thinking of switching to a g-19, mainly just trying to cut down on rounds i have to buy, as i have a variety of calibers presently. but i hate to give up the extra little bit i may gain with the fourty.
heck i dont know maybe i am just trying to justify another gun.
naw that couldnt be it.

Go ahead and hi-jack it, not the first one to be done, nor the last I bet.
I went through a period of going from a G19 to G36 and finally ended up with a G27. I like all three and as a caliber, I like the .40 least, BUT, outside of a 1st Gen 17L I had, my G27 shoots better than my G19 or G36 did and that's just shocks the sh**! out of me. That works for me & I'm going to try to go to all .40's so I can combine my ammo and mags..I see a G35 or even a G24 in my future...

Check out my lab's picture, even she has her own G17!

[NG VI]

Don't underestimate 9x19mm based on machismo, just cause the .45 rounds look twice as big doesn't mean they are twice as effective.


(disclaimer- I want a 30SF badly, and I like .45 quite a bit. I also like my 9mm though, and feel quite comfortable with it.)

[WinstonSmith]

i was of the belief that if you carried a 9mm for self defence instead of a .45 you were seriously short changing yourself. i own 2 pistols a glock 21 and a sig 220. i just purchased a s&w 38special +p. i took it to the range and just got back.... i took with me 2 half gallon jugs filled to the brim with water....first i took a magtech 38 special round.158 gr. ...cost .30 cents a round. i fired it into one of the gallon jugs of water. not much of an effect. then i took a .38special+p 110gr jhp cor bon round. cost $1.50 a round. i fired it into the other jug of water....well, talk about night and day. the cor bon round blew the jug all to hell. shattered it in 3 places knocked it off the table. i was blown away.....now my point.......if a .38spl +p 110 gr corbon round could do that kind of damage, well ,what if i put a corbon 9mm jhp round in it. so i am now convinced if one carries a 9mm with 9mm+p from corbon ,one is prepared for any self defence situation. in short i stand corrected and i have changed my mind. but one has got to carry barnes dpx , cobon +p jhp and then one might even be better prepared than someone with a .45 only because of more ammo....taters

Two points:
You can't judge a 9mm round unless you TEST a 9mm round.

I suspect the difference you saw was the difference between a FMJ and a JHP.
An expanded round transfers much more energy per inch than ball ammoJ. Since the FMJ probably exited the water jug with most of its energy intact, you really aren't comparing apples to apples.

[Solid]

This thread should have a subtitle: Ignorance is bliss

[Jeff82]

Great. If we could do that relaibaly in a fight, everybody including the police would be carrying .22' s - they're easy to shoot accurately, right? They are a leading homicide gun, so they will definitely kill people with the right shot palcement, right? So if shot placement is all that matters, do you use a .22 for self defense?

I prefer something that works as well as possible when the shot placement is wrong.

If it works out that you can't hit with anthing but a .22, then yes, .22 would be the right solution. Otherwise you are a danger all those around you.

[carbofan21]

heh heh

with every new post in this thread, somewhere in the world, a kitten dies

[carbofan21]

damn that's two!

[Boris Bush]

via 9mm, three

[Z1232K]

The human body is not filled 100% with water.:tongueout::rofl::wavey:

I think it's 70% water:tongueout:

[robertwh]

This thread will be moved soon... Thank God... I will carry my .45 others are free to carry their pellet guns, and .22 caliber pistols because all that really matters is "shot placement". :faint:

[Dandapani]

I think it's 70% water:tongueout:

Varies. Babies are up to 70%, but adult men are just over 50%, with women a little higher, 60%. Skinny people have higher water content than fat people. BUT, and this is a big butt (sic), the human body isn't uniform. There is a lot of space, occupied by elastic material... So, the jug's performances has nothing to do with performance on the human body. :tongueout::rofl::wavey:

[Hugo R]

This thread will be moved soon... Thank God... I will carry my .45 others are free to carry their pellet guns, and .22 caliber pistols because all that really matters is "shot placement". :faint:

...but you can only carry ball ammo right? Otherwise your .45 will malfunction!

[Short Cut]

I'm not going to go down the road about being attacked by water filled jugs...But, I will say again for the zillionth time; The only thing that really matters is SHOT PLACEMENT! A cor-bon 9mm, or whatever in the arm or a 38 in center of the chest. Hummmm, I'm thinking the center of the chest is more effective. Shoot what you want, whatever caliber you want, but be able to make an effective shot, and that means center of mass...


That's all well and good when you're shooting at stationery targets hanging broadside to you. I can make a silver dollar sized group at 15 yards when I have the time to do it. However after taking force on force training I quickly learned that when the adversary is up close and trying to kill you there is no time to take a stance and get a good sight picture. Instead the participants were giving and taking many shots in the shoulders, arms and hands.

That is why I'd rather carry a more potent caliber so that you can get the most from suboptimal shots. JM2c

[robertwh]

That's all well and good when you're shooting at stationery targets hanging broadside to you. I can make a silver dollar sized group at 15 yards when I have the time to do it. However after taking force on force training I quickly learned that when the adversary is up close and trying to kill you there is no time to take a stance and get a good sight picture. Instead the participants were giving and taking many shots in the shoulders, arms and hands.

That is why I'd rather carry a more potent caliber so that you can get the most from suboptimal shots. JM2c

Do I hear the voice of common sense and reason?:wavey:

[robertwh]

...but you can only carry ball ammo right? Otherwise your .45 will malfunction!

I have shot almost every type of hollow point through my Glock 36 and 21 with 185- 230 grain bullets and never and I mean never had a malfunction.


The Glock 45 ACP in any model including the GAP is a reliable pistol in a potent caliber.

I can get off 2 quick shots with the 45 as fast and accurately as I can with my model 19 9mm.

[Hugo R]

I have shot almost every type of hollow point through my Glock 36 and 21 with 185- 230 grain bullets and never and I mean never had a malfunction.


Oh, you're talking about Glocks...I thought you meant 1911's.:supergrin:

[LABMAN]

That's all well and good when you're shooting at stationery targets hanging broadside to you. I can make a silver dollar sized group at 15 yards when I have the time to do it. However after taking force on force training I quickly learned that when the adversary is up close and trying to kill you there is no time to take a stance and get a good sight picture. Instead the participants were giving and taking many shots in the shoulders, arms and hands.

That is why I'd rather carry a more potent caliber so that you can get the most from suboptimal shots. JM2c

No, Center of mass shots should always be the goal in self defense shooting, and the fact you are making hand and arm shots is why the perp is still standing there shooting at you. A COM shot should be a point shooting type shot. you should train to draw and shoot COM in under 1 to 1 1/2 seconds. I shoot my guns for a tight group on a target & I also shoot for COM from a draw at a human looking target. Different shooting altogether. Not even related except for the "bang". If you don't hit a vital organ or at least an artery, the perp might. I practice so I will hit what I shoot at and I do it on a regular basis. (50 rounds per week) and have done so for decades...Also, it's hard to find someone to let me shoot at them while they are shooting back, hence the shooting with increased heart rate and breathing training...

[LABMAN]

Do I hear the voice of common sense and reason?:wavey:

NOPE!

[robertwh]

No, Center of mass shots should always be the goal in self defense shooting, and the fact you are making hand and arm shots is why the perp is still standing there shooting at you. A COM shot should be a point shooting type shot. you should train to draw and shoot COM in under 1 to 1 1/2 seconds. I shoot my guns for a tight group on a target & I also shoot for COM from a draw at a human looking target. Different shooting altogether. Not even related except for the "bang". If you don't hit a vital organ or at least an artery, the perp might. I practice so I will hit what I shoot at and I do it on a regular basis. (50 rounds per week) and have done so for decades...Also, it's hard to find someone to let me shoot at them while they are shooting back, hence the shooting with increased heart rate and breathing training...

He agrees that center mass shots are best but in a stress filled gun fight in which you may have been hit first and are returning fire the best you can it is possible and even likely that you may not even hit center mass. He isn't suggesting that you aim for hands, arms and shoulders.

I would rather be hit in the arm with a 36 grain .22 caliber bullet than a 230 grain 45 caliber bullet.

[LABMAN]

And by the way, the way a .22 travels within the body, a .22 in the arm may well end up in the chest anyway. Not likely for the .45 in the arm.

[Ger42]

Don't worry man. There are some people who are hell-bent on carrying ONLY .45 acp. Is it because they are compensating for a lack of something???

Who knows...I'll take a .38 or a 9 mm because I am confident with my shot placement, even during a stressful situation. Train, train, train, and train some more. And when you are done, do some more training.

Furthermore, has anyone ever seen the devastating effects of a properly place 9mm round? It has the capability of ruining your entire day!

At 66 my "manhood" has shrunk so I went from a 9 MM Kahr to a Glock 36.

Gerry

[jonusmcg]

At 66 my "manhood" has shrunk so I went from a 9 MM Kahr to a Glock 36.

Gerry

LOL! Probably better off! Never owned a Kahr, but have always been turned off by them for the lack of capacity.

[LABMAN]

If we keep beating these horses to death, we may have to start beating cows next...I'm done with this round of "my caliber is better than yours"!

[Short Cut]

No, Center of mass shots should always be the goal in self defense shooting, and the fact you are making hand and arm shots is why the perp is still standing there shooting at you.

I agree with the first part and that is what I'm getting at. You can be pointing directly at the center of mass, but there may very well be a hand, shoulder, arm in front of the COM in an up close dynamic engagement. There isn't time or the ability, in my case, to aim around the arm that is swishing past you with a knife or bludgeon. Then if that swing misses you are faced with a shoulder shot as the BGs momentum swings his body 90* to you. I would prefer to take that shot rather than let the BG reorient his attack.

I think it is unrealistic to be thinking shoot, no shoot, up an inch, over an inch pause for the arm to swing past. As you said, I think the best bet is to point in COM and start hammering some shots off. Hey if one can get that direct heart or head shot to stop the attack quickly, great.

However, given that one can shoot a more powerful caliber effectively, why wouldn't you also take the added benefit of choosing a bullet/caliber that will punch through an arm or shoulder and have a better chance of still making it to the boiler room?

[LABMAN]

I agree with the first part and that is what I'm getting at. You can be pointing directly at the center of mass, but there may very well be a hand, shoulder, arm in front of the COM in an up close dynamic engagement. There isn't time or the ability, in my case, to aim around the arm that is swishing past you with a knife or bludgeon. Then if that swing misses you are faced with a shoulder shot as the BGs momentum swings his body 90* to you. I would prefer to take that shot rather than let the BG reorient his attack.

I think it is unrealistic to be thinking shoot, no shoot, up an inch, over an inch pause for the arm to swing past. As you said, I think the best bet is to point in COM and start hammering some shots off. Hey if one can get that direct heart or head shot to stop the attack quickly, great.

However, given that one can shoot a more powerful caliber effectively, why wouldn't you also take the added benefit of choosing a bullet/caliber that will punch through an arm or shoulder and have a better chance of still making it to the boiler room?

I said I was going and I am, BUT, (and this is my last words on this thread) We are on the same page and going down the same road. I have no problem if he throws up an arm and I shoot through it to get to COM. I'm trying to avoid people trading off practice to hit COM for the idea he can hit the perp anywhere and if it's a magic bullet, he will die..I carry a .40. It will go through an arm and enter the chest. Hell, I've seen them go shoulder to shoulder through a deer. (180 Gold Dots) Bullets do strange things. Just don't want people to think there is a magic one. I will give respect to a shoulder shot with a .50 BMG...COM won't be necessary....

[Boris Bush]

I said I was going and I am, BUT, (and this is my last words on this thread) We are on the same page and going down the same road. I have no problem if he throws up an arm and I shoot through it to get to COM. I'm trying to avoid people trading off practice to hit COM for the idea he can hit the perp anywhere and if it's a magic bullet, he will die..I carry a .40. It will go through an arm and enter the chest. Hell, I've seen them go shoulder to shoulder through a deer. (180 Gold Dots) Bullets do strange things. Just don't want people to think there is a magic one. I will give respect to a shoulder shot with a .50 BMG...COM won't be necessary....


LABMAN

I know it was your last word, but. I saw a guy get hit with a .50 BMG twice. One blew an arm off and the other blew a leg off. He satup and tried to fire his RPG at our ICV. One round COM from a M4 ended his fighting days.

Shot placement is key, even if you hit 'em twice with a .50 BMG

OIF 05-06

[bagballa]

Its all about the pearl and ivory grips. Not caliber or shot placement.

[Short Cut]

We are on the same page and going down the same road. I have no problem if he throws up an arm and I shoot through it to get to COM. I'm trying to avoid people trading off practice to hit COM for the idea he can hit the perp anywhere and if it's a magic bullet, he will die.

Yes we are. It is this line of reasoning why my first choice for carry is a 10MM 99% of the time. Next is .45 ACP and on the rare occasion when clothing dictates difficulty in concealing a larger gun my baseline caliber is carried in a Kahr PM9.

I'm sure not trying to talk anybody else into doing what I do, just laying out my rational for carrying a more powerful pistol caliber.

[Jeff82]

Hopefully none of us will ever have to find out.

[magiaaron]

I'm not going to call you all idiots, but... I'll treat you all that way.

Caliber this... Shot placement that... There's only one way to get a good solid one shot stop! And that's a GLOCK chambered in .50 BMG. GEEZ! And they have 15 round mags, so you know your covered, just in case. Seriously, with the Glock .50, you can spray and pray, but you'll be praying for the recently departed bad guy who got knocked back 50 ft (and your recently broken wrist). Hope that helps.

-magiaaron

[Boris Bush]

I'm not going to call you all idiots, but... I'll treat you all that way.

Caliber this... Shot placement that... There's only one way to get a good solid one shot stop! And that's a GLOCK chambered in .50 BMG. GEEZ! And they have 15 round mags, so you know your covered, just in case. Seriously, with the Glock .50, you can spray and pray, but you'll be praying for the recently departed bad guy who got knocked back 50 ft (and your recently broken wrist). Hope that helps.

-magiaaron

You are right about calibers and placement. Mindset, training, muscle memory and violence of action is what will make you prevail. I was at an IDPA match 7 years ago when a shooter had a weapon failure that deadlined his weapon (Kimber 1911). He proceeded to take his pocket knife out and attact the remaining targets.

If he ever gets into a real gunfight someday he will prevail......

[J1923]

...police would be carrying .22' s - they're easy to shoot accurately, right? They are a leading homicide gun....

I notice on the TV show "The First 48" that most people killed with a .22 are shot at least ten times, that means they walked up to their unsuspecting victim and blasted a full ten round mag into them. That'll kill anything. I've met people who have been shot several times with a 9mm and said they didn't really feel a thing. They were shot with full metal jacket of course, which is basically worthless if you need the guy to drop fast and can't afford to wait for them to bleed to death (147 NATO rounds may have more affect, but soldiers I've spoken to hate, hate, hate the 9mm they are forced to carry).

If the OP'er liked the 38. spl +p in the test so well then I feel quite comfortable carrying my revolver, but my back-up speed loader is packed with .357 Magnum.

[cole]

i was of the belief that if you carried a 9mm for self defence instead of a .45 you were seriously short changing yourself. i own 2 pistols a glock 21 and a sig 220. i just purchased a s&w 38special +p. i took it to the range and just got back.... i took with me 2 half gallon jugs filled to the brim with water....first i took a magtech 38 special round.158 gr. ...cost .30 cents a round. i fired it into one of the gallon jugs of water. not much of an effect. then i took a .38special+p 110gr jhp cor bon round. cost $1.50 a round. i fired it into the other jug of water....well, talk about night and day. the cor bon round blew the jug all to hell. shattered it in 3 places knocked it off the table. i was blown away.....now my point.......if a .38spl +p 110 gr corbon round could do that kind of damage, well ,what if i put a corbon 9mm jhp round in it. so i am now convinced if one carries a 9mm with 9mm+p from corbon ,one is prepared for any self defence situation. in short i stand corrected and i have changed my mind. but one has got to carry barnes dpx , cobon +p jhp and then one might even be better prepared than someone with a .45 only because of more ammo....taters

Congrats... and good luck with that. Feeling good about something is often just that... a feeling. If you feel good about it, that should be good enough for you and all that really matters. 9mm, .40sw, .45acp... they're all good choices wiht optimal loads, not at all equal, but all at least good. Opinions vary, but yours should matter most to you.

[Boris Bush]

I notice on the TV show "The First 48" that most people killed with a .22 are shot at least ten times, that means they walked up to their unsuspecting victim and blasted a full ten round mag into them. That'll kill anything. I've met people who have been shot several times with a 9mm and said they didn't really feel a thing. They were shot with full metal jacket of course, which is basically worthless if you need the guy to drop fast and can't afford to wait for them to bleed to death (147 NATO rounds may have more affect, but soldiers I've spoken to hate, hate, hate the 9mm they are forced to carry).

If the OP'er liked the 38. spl +p in the test so well then I feel quite comfortable carrying my revolver, but my back-up speed loader is packed with .357 Magnum.


NATO rounds we use are 124 grain, and the ones I saw fired into people in combat, did a fine job. There are alot of people that never leave the wire and carry a M9 to chow because you can NOT enter chow hall without a weapon that for some reason makeup stories about 9mm performing poorly. These people are the ones I know of that have problems wihth the 9mm......

[lawman800]

I say carry what you are confident in handling and shooting. If you don't feel good about your abilities with a .45, then you are going into the fight with a handicap. If you can unload the 9mm and hit everything you want and double tap and failure drill to your heart's content, by all means, carry the 9mm. I shoot my G26 better than my G21, that's for sure.

I use the G21 on duty because I want the bigger slug to put the guy down but I also have 2 reloads and spares in the warbag, giving me a lot of rounds if I need it. For my own time, I have a G26 and a 19 round reload mag which gives me 30 rounds total, no warbag, nothing. If you absolutely have to engage on your own time, you will be stranded for a while until help comes, if at all. Compare that to the G21 which will give me 27 rounds with a reload but at a cost of an extra 1.5 pounds... which starts wearing on you within 30 minutes.

The G26 is so easy to carry that I don't mind having it on me all the time and that satisfies the first rule of a gunfight which is... have a gun! Change that to the G21 which I can't wear on my belt in plainclothes for the life of me unless I wear a full shoulder rig... and you can see that it gets left home when I am in civvies.

That's how I justify using a 9mm off-duty.

[J.P.]

. so i am now convinced if one carries a 9mm with 9mm+p from corbon ,one is prepared for any self defence situation. in short i stand corrected and i have changed my mind. but one has got to carry barnes dpx , cobon +p jhp and then one might even be better prepared than someone with a .45 only because of more ammo....taters

Given my negative experiences with Cor-Bon ammunition's reliability/QC, I'd have to politely disagree. :)

[VZ1600]

Labman is dead right, SHOT PLACEMENT is the key

I agree 100%

I would rather be shot in the leg with a .45 than shot in the head with a .22LR :whistling:

[robertwh]

I agree 100%

I would rather be shot in the leg with a .45 than shot in the head with a .22LR :whistling:

I would rather be shot in the leg with a .22 than shot in the leg with a .45.

Is this rocket science? :faint:

[BSteadman]

Seriously, is there anyone out there who carries the 9mm because they really believe it's as effect as the .40 or .45? I carry the G26 or G19 first, because of ease of concealment, cost of ammo, higher capacity and maybe shot placement. But not because I believe it's a more effective caliber! Like someone else posted the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. Again seriously for most civillians the chances of ever having to pull your gun is slim to none. However chance favors the prepared mind. One more thing, all these anomallies regarding 14 hits before a 35lb dog is dropped and taking several rounds to the chest without dropping....Geeze This is true of any caliber as pointed out above with the guy taking two .50 BMG rounds. Murphy is always at work. Hell I don't care what you're carrying are you really going to go up against someone with full body armour and a .223 or some other assualt weapon with a 9mm, .40 or .45? Taking you one chance at a headshot, missing and ending up dead! Some of you crack me up with the hands thing....hell a bird might fly in front of your shot or even **** in your eye first.

[EdMan63]

Seriously, is there anyone out there who carries the 9mm because they really believe it's as effect as the .40 or .45? I carry the G26 or G19 first, because of ease of concealment, cost of ammo, higher capacity and maybe shot placement. But not because I believe it's a more effective caliber! Like someone else posted the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun. Again seriously for most civillians the chances of ever having to pull your gun is slim to none. However chance favors the prepared mind. One more thing, all these anomallies regarding 14 hits before a 35lb dog is dropped and taking several rounds to the chest without dropping....Geeze This is true of any caliber as pointed out above with the guy taking two .50 BMG rounds. Murphy is always at work. Hell I don't care what you're carrying are you really going to go up against someone with full body armour and a .223 or some other assualt weapon with a 9mm, .40 or .45? Taking you one chance at a headshot, missing and ending up dead! Some of you crack me up with the hands thing....hell a bird might fly in front of your shot or even **** in your eye first.

Amen. I haven't even been around guns that long and these caliber wars make absolutely no sense to me. Carry what you want to carry and be happy. I own two 9mm and I am definitely more protected than having nothing at all. It is my hope that I will never have to find out either. The difference of opinion that goes on here is just that... opinions.

I would strongly venture to say that most people on here have never shot anyone so making strong factual statements about what a bullet will or will not do is just speculation. I agree that the first rule in a gunfight is have a gun. A handgun is a sacrifice anyway. A shotgun or rifle is your best bet. Fire quickly and often is your goal to stop a threat. I think most high capacity handguns fill that bill.

[glock20c10mm]

Carry what you want to carry and be happy.
That works out great for those that know what they want to carry. What about the newbs asking questions regularily? Then, after you decide between: 380auto, 38spcl, 9mm, 357SIG, 357mag, 40S&W, 10mm, 45GAP, 45auto.......you now get to pick between endless specific loads within whichever cartridge you choose.:faint: Then think about all the people actually making their decision based on what some kid working behind the gun counter says:chatter:, and....., and....., and..........

The point is, many people are basing their choosen carry round on BS:holysheep:, they just don't know it. It's hard to find anyone who will give the next person an openminded comprehensive answer/subjective point of view. Seems like most people want everyone to shoot what they shoot instead of explaining to the next person alternatives on why they may want to pick another available round, or not.

I only "want" people to shoot what I shoot:50cal: because they "want" to, after they've gained an understanding of the pros/cons of all the various cartridges available to them, in case they don't/wouldn't want to shoot what I shoot. Shouldn't we all look at it that way?

EdMan63, this is in no way directly meant to take away from anything you've posted or to bash your thoughts in any way. Just that one line you posted got me thinking and therefore I simply used it to post what I did.:supergrin:

[gary newport]

I agree, but how many practice without hearing protection....

None, I hope!

[gary newport]

Varies. Babies are up to 70%, but adult men are just over 50%, with women a little higher, 60%. Skinny people have higher water content than fat people. BUT, and this is a big butt (sic), the human body isn't uniform. There is a lot of space, occupied by elastic material... So, the jug's performances has nothing to do with performance on the human body. :tongueout::rofl::wavey:

Apart from blood (which is thicker than water), most of the water in the human body is incorporated in tissues. Humans don't slosh.

[lawman800]

I would rather be shot in the leg with a .22 than shot in the leg with a .45.

Is this rocket science? :faint:

I'd rather not be shot at all... but that's just my preference.