top tier AR or sig 556?

[luke ford]

i am going to be getting a rifle before the end of the year,whether or not obama wins.
i'm undecided between a top tier AR like a noveske/LMT and a piston rifle like the sig 556.

is the piston design enough of an advantage in reliability and keeping the rifle cleaner?-i will be shooting around 2,000 rounds a year-or is that so few rounds that it wouldn't even be an issue?

AR guys help me out here:dunno:

[AK_Stick]

I'd go with a Noveske.


You're getting a better weapon, in terms of end user modifications, and ergos. And any advantage a piston gun has, in reliability is so negligible, that it doesn't offset the disadvantages the SIG brings to the table.

[reaper8154]

+1 for a top tier AR (I'm a Colt fan). I highly doubt you would see the difference in reliability and the Sig is too heavy.

[RMTactical]

High quality AR15.

[magiaaron]

Anybody want to educate me on the disadvantages mentioned with the Sig? Is weight the only thing? Cause my Rock River is loaded out and heavy as hell. ;)

-magiaaron

[MrMurphy]

What AK Stick said.

Even in incredibly dirty conditions most DI rifles are exceedingly reliable.

I doubt you would ever get it dirty enough to matter.

[AK_Stick]

Anybody want to educate me on the disadvantages mentioned with the Sig? Is weight the only thing? Cause my Rock River is loaded out and heavy as hell. ;)

-magiaaron


Crappy ergo's, bolt hold open was an after thought, crappy mag release, lack of ambidextrous charging handle. Lack of aftermarket support. And lack of modularity.

If you have medium to large sized hands, its easy to knock the weapon off fire if you index your finger down the side of the frame....

[PlasticGuy]

Anybody want to educate me on the disadvantages mentioned with the Sig? Is weight the only thing?
In my opinion, weight is the only relevant complaint (and that can be solved by swapping to a Sig 551 forend).

I used AR-15's almost exclusively for several years. I had quality ones, including three Colts. The first class I took with a Sig 556 convinced me that the AR-15 was not the rifle for me. If you like it, fine. I don't. I've seen too many problems with them. My Sig 556 has been flawless, with many different mags and every type of ammo I can get my hands on. The mag release is 1/3 inch farther forward than it is on an AR-15, which isn't a problem even for my small hands. The bolt release is in the same place and just as easy to operate. I can't work the AR-15's charging handle or the Sig 556's without shifting the rifle slightly out of shooting position, so that isn't an issue for me either.

Less recoil and more reliability are important to me, and that is the reason I've sold all buy one of my AR-15's and bought two more Sigs.

For what it's worth.

[JKG]

If you can afford the Noveske, buy it. If not the LMT. If you decide you don't like the gas impingement system, sell the Noveske or LMT upper (you will have no problems selling those brands) and buy a piston upper.

I would be willing to bet that you never get the piston upper and you will be glad that you saved weight over one or the SIG.

[magiaaron]

Thank you to AK_Stick and PlastiGuy for the information. :)

-magiaaron

[luke ford]

thanks for the replies everyone.
i'm leaning towards the AR this year but still might get the sig next fall if it looks like a new AWB is about to be signed:whistling:

[orlando_5]

thanks for the replies everyone.
i'm leaning towards the AR this year but still might get the sig next fall if it looks like a new AWB is about to be signed:whistling:

That's not going to happen anymore with the Supreme Court Ruling. The only question that is left:

1. The incorporation of the 2nd Amendment.
2. How far does "shall not be infringe" carry.

Getting the second amendment should now be our number one goal. I expect full auto legal within one to three years. With that said get the AR15.

[WayaX]

You wouldn't be unhappy with either. The Sig 556 needs some work done to it after the fact though. Getting good iron sights and changing the stock and hand guards are a must. The price different between a Sig and the Noveske/LMT quickly goes away when those are factored in.

[bennwj]

What AK Stick said.

Even in incredibly dirty conditions most DI rifles are exceedingly reliable.

I doubt you would ever get it dirty enough to matter.

There is nothing wrong with the gas system (D.I.) on the current pack of AR's. As you said they are extremely reliable. I'm glad H&K and others are making new rifles, but after shooting God knows how many tens of thousands of rounds through AR-15's from Colt, Bushmaster and Others as well as M-16 A1's, A2's, A3's and M-4 A1's and A2's I KNOW they are reliable. They are easy to maintain and fixing them when they do break is easy.

[magiaaron]

That's not going to happen anymore with the Supreme Court Ruling. The only question that is left:

1. The incorporation of the 2nd Amendment.
2. How far does "shall not be infringe" carry.

Getting the second amendment should now be our number one goal. I expect full auto legal within one to three years. With that said get the AR15.

Is this a serious post? Do you really expect full auto to be legal soon across the country? It was said so seriously, I'm curious if it was meant to be serious or a joke.

-magiaaron

[Solid]

AR-15 and clean your gun every now and then.

Is this a serious post? Do you really expect full auto to be legal soon across the country? It was said so seriously, I'm curious if it was meant to be serious or a joke.

-magiaaron

Full auto is legal in tons of states :faint:

[01coltcolt]

Full auto is legal in tons of states :faint:

Exactly.....................

[orlando_5]

Is this a serious post? Do you really expect full auto to be legal soon across the country? It was said so seriously, I'm curious if it was meant to be serious or a joke.

-magiaaron

Yes I am very serious. Its only a matter of time that those gun control laws will be challenges. Those laws that banned (federal) full auto will be stuck down. It will not hold strict judicial scrutiny. Strict scrutiny was not directly mention in the opinion but it was implied when Judge Scalia attached the 2nd to the 1st amendment. All gun control laws are valuable and can be challenges. It just take time and lots of money.

Questions is how far does the "shall not be infringe" carry. Can we have min-guns or missile launchers? That is the question. BTW you can legally buy a howitzer.

Incorporation of the 2nd Amendment should be our main goal tho (NRA has just filed suit). Once that is done the only gun control laws will be federal. At that level of government it will be rare to see any gun control laws after this ruling. If gun control laws manage to pass congress it will most likely stuck down by judicial review. In other words a unify 2nd amendment across the nation just like the 1st amendment.

Please vote in the coming election. It is that important.

Send an email of thanks to this guy. (http://www.cato.org/people/robert-levy) He is the person that made it happen.

[orlando_5]

AR-15 and clean your gun every now and then.



Full auto is legal in tons of states :faint:

That is true but only those made prior to the early 90's. If the challenge is successful it means that new auto and conversion can be sold to citizens. The price will drop down to that of semi-autos. In others words HK fanboys can have their full auto MP5 :upeyes:. Ops I forgot HK won't sell it to them. :rofl:

[Solid]

That is true but only those made prior to the early 90's. If the challenge is successful it means that new auto and conversion can be sold to citizens. The price will drop down to that of semi-autos. In others words HK fanboys can have their full auto MP5 :upeyes:. Ops I forgot HK won't sell it to them. :rofl:

I'm not an HK fanboy, but if the MP5 became legal to just go buy new from the gun shop.... I'd be there!

I have seen department prices for the MP5s for individual officers, and it is a shame we cannot have them. $1200ish for a basic fixed stock to $1700ish for the SD3.

[reaper8154]

That is true but only those made prior to the early 90's. If the challenge is successful it means that new auto and conversion can be sold to citizens. The price will drop down to that of semi-autos. In others words HK fanboys can have their full auto MP5 :upeyes:. Ops I forgot HK won't sell it to them. :rofl:


If you ever did any serious work with an MP5 you would be a "fanboy" too. If they were legal where I live I would be all over it.

[01coltcolt]

That is true but only those made prior to the early 90's. If the challenge is successful it means that new auto and conversion can be sold to citizens. The price will drop down to that of semi-autos. In others words HK fanboys can have their full auto MP5 :upeyes:. Ops I forgot HK can't sell it to them. Because their goverment and ours have laid down the law. Making it imposable for HK to sell you their assault rifles in their original state.:rofl: There I corrected your oversights (ignorances)............by all means feel free to ask.....

[AK_Stick]

If you ever did any serious work with an MP5 you would be a "fanboy" too. If they were legal where I live I would be all over it.




I'd much rather have a full auto SBR, than a PCC, but I digress, they're cool



And defend H&K how you want, sure, the Go'vt has made it hard on them, but they don't help themselves by ignoring, and abusing the civilian market.

[01coltcolt]

I'd much rather have a full auto SBR, than a PCC, but I digress, they're cool



And defend H&K how you want, sure, the Go'vt has made it hard on them, but they don't help themselves by ignoring, and abusing the civilian market.

Witch government, ours or theirs do you speak of? Please explain "abusing the civilian market." Both goverments have extensive laws directed at HK about imports and exports. Lets talk about that.........................

[orlando_5]

There I corrected your oversights (ignorances)............by all means feel free to ask.....

Relax it was a joke.

As of the ruling all gun ban are illegal. The only thing that is left is to have citizens challenges those laws. With that said, if foreign governments doesn't allow their corporations to sell weapons or the companies doesn't want to sell it to the public. There really nothing we can do.

[01coltcolt]

Relax it was a joke.

As of the ruling all gun ban are illegal. The only thing that is left is to have citizens challenges those laws. With that said, if a foreign government doesn't allow their corporation to sell weapons or the company doesn't want to sell it to the public. There really nothing we can do.

I am impressed. You have the first educated statement Ive seen on the matter. Most people tend to believe what they read and assume whats not so.

[AK_Stick]

Both the German gov't and the American have laws about what they can and cant sell, and I know that.


There is no excuse for the outrageous prices they have for stuff like mags and parts.


They don't care about the civilian market, and they've show that again and again. They make a decent weapon, but they certainly act as if it should be revered for a much better weapon than it is.

[01coltcolt]

Both the German gov't and the American have laws about what they can and cant sell, and I know that.


There is no excuse for the outrageous prices they have for stuff like mags and parts.


They don't care about the civilian market, and they've show that again and again. They make a decent weapon, but they certainly act as if it should be revered for a much better weapon than it is.

That makes sense to form a point of view on the prices, but how much price gouging is taking place by American distributors? We can't order from the factory. We also don't expect the same prices for a foreign made imported item as you would a domestic made shipped item do you. Not talking about Mexican and Chinese imported junk. Cost of exportation and distribution has to be more, right? even so people are still paying the price and in a high demand.

[AK_Stick]

Oh, I'm sure that distributors take a slightly higher cut, because they're H&K mags. But I'm also equally sure that H&K charges more per mag, than Glock, even though there isn't a reason in the world they should cost more, except for the letters on them.

[Solid]

That makes sense to form a point of view on the prices, but how much price gouging is taking place by American distributors? We can't order from the factory. We also don't expect the same prices for a foreign made imported Item as you would a domestic made shipped item do you. Cost of exportation and distribution has to be more, right? even so people are still paying the price and in a high demand.

Glock magazines and parts are cheap, so what about German import laws makes things so expensive?

[01coltcolt]

Glock magazines and parts are cheap, so what about German import laws makes things so expensive?

Pistol mags example USP .9mm $30-35 = expensive? what are you talking about?

[AK_Stick]

when I can order new Glock mags for 19 bucks, or 9.99 for a used one, yes, thats expensive.

[Solid]

Pistol mags example USP .9mm $30-35 = expensive? what are you talking about?

$30 - $35 is expensive compared to Glock magazines ($17.99 new)

[01coltcolt]

when I can order new Glock mags for 19 bucks, or 9.99 for a used one, yes, thats expensive.

Okay, I give up I never owned a Glock so I guess I wouldn't know............I guess when I buy a gun I don't consider mag prices like the rest.................

[AK_Stick]

I own both, a H&K USPf in 9mm, and a Glock 19.


They're about equal, the H&K has a better single action trigger, but the glock has a better trigger, than the USP's gritty double action.


I think H&K would have alot more fans, and users, if they'd drop the price to comparable levels since the H&K isn't significantly more advanced, or harder to make.

[Solid]

Okay, I give up I never owned a Glock so I guess I wouldn't know............I guess when I buy a gun I don't consider mag prices like the rest.................

That's not what we are saying.

It was explained that due to American and German import laws, etc that everything from HK was so expensive. Well, Glock is imported, and suffers from none of the gouging like HK.

What about German law makes the civilian market suck here in the US?

[tacticaldawg]

I think I've replied to something like this before. For me, it's Sig all the way. AR's are nice, I still have a couple, but Sig has a much more robust gas system, and it can do anything that AR can.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/149/sig556a3sdz7.jpg

[01coltcolt]

That's not what we are saying.

It was explained that due to American and German import laws, etc that everything from HK was so expensive. Well, Glock is imported, and suffers from none of the gouging like HK.

What about German law makes the civilian market suck here in the US?


As stated before I never owned a Glock but I do own allot of firearms. I never thought that $30 was expensive for a magazine. I guess my taste in firearms is not your average, and no I am not talking about the HK USP they are a dime a dozen ............As for the import export laws placed on HK I was talking about The Weapons of War Control Law (KWKG), the AWG, and the Foreign Trade Regulation by the German government.This law has restricted HK from exporting its weapons line to the US for some time now not to mention our government since 1986 on imports........

[SVTNate]

I asked myself the same question recently.

I'm getting a 14.5 inch Noveske Afghan VIS upper to sit on my Noveske lower with UBR stock and an ACOG.