View Full Version : A 10mm M1 Carbine?
MrMurphy
06-30-2008, 01:21
Watching Band of Brothers last night and the profusion of M1 Carbines got me thinking....
The light, handy, easy to carry aspect was favorable. Lack of stopping power was always the 1 thing people disliked (though others, like Audie Murphy, had no apparent problem).
There was a guy some years ago doing conversions of M1 carbines to odd rounds like the .50 AE, etc.
A 10mm M1 carbine would have all the good points, and nobody is going to say in a primarily defensive weapon (which it is) that a 10mm full power round is "weak". Might not be a 7.62, but it will certainly get your attention.
Jeff Cooper had something like this in mind for regular grunts/rear area troops with his "Thumper", a semiauto, 20-round magazine with folding stock in .44 Automag.
They'd probably sell if anyone made them. What do you think?
ken93notch
06-30-2008, 01:27
10mm Auto is a much shorter round than the .30 cal carbine round.
I think velocity would suffer.
mitchshrader
06-30-2008, 01:29
http://www.chuckhawks.com/30cal.htm
no. you don't need a 10mm carbine. a .30 carbine with a 110 grain bullet is fine. Your gain is insignificant, your expense is unjustifiable.
So lets assume we're dealing with 10mm here, since it's probably the best standard auto pistol offering for hunting.
Here's the loadings doubletap is offering.
135gr at 1600fps - 767 ftlbs
155gr at 1475fps - 750 ftlbs
165gr at 1425fps - 744 ftlbs
180gr at 1330fps - 707 ftlbs
200gr at 1270fps - 715 ftlbs
found at:
http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006/02/pistol-caliber-carbines.html
A decent expanding bullet and carefully chosen powder charge might improve the M1 carbines terminal performance somewhat, but it works fine as is.
Sniperfox
06-30-2008, 01:35
Back in 1996/97 when our SRT was preparing to buy MP5's from HK, the sales rep brought us 3 for testing. One was 9m/m, one was .40 S&W and the other was in 10m/m. He told us that the 10m/m model was designed primarily for the FBI and may be discontinued(and it was). It was ok, but we chose the .40 cal models mainly because the performance wasn't that much better with 10m/m and our agency was already buying .40 S&W ammo for handguns.
Bottom line is that all three are still pistol rounds and effective range is limited to 100 yards or less.
Yellowfin
06-30-2008, 01:36
10mm MP5's exist; I've even heard of .40's in fact.
Watching Band of Brothers last night and the profusion of M1 Carbines got me thinking....
The light, handy, easy to carry aspect was favorable. Lack of stopping power was always the 1 thing people disliked (though others, like Audie Murphy, had no apparent problem).
There was a guy some years ago doing conversions of M1 carbines to odd rounds like the .50 AE, etc.
A 10mm M1 carbine would have all the good points, and nobody is going to say in a primarily defensive weapon (which it is) that a 10mm full power round is "weak". Might not be a 7.62, but it will certainly get your attention.
Jeff Cooper had something like this in mind for regular grunts/rear area troops with his "Thumper", a semiauto, 20-round magazine with folding stock in .44 Automag.
They'd probably sell if anyone made them. What do you think?
Load 'em up, lets go!!!!!
blownhemi
06-30-2008, 04:47
double post
blownhemi
06-30-2008, 04:48
http://www.chuckhawks.com/30cal.htm
no. you don't need a 10mm carbine. a .30 carbine with a 110 grain bullet is fine. Your gain is insignificant, your expense is unjustifiable.
So lets assume we're dealing with 10mm here, since it's probably the best standard auto pistol offering for hunting.
Here's the loadings doubletap is offering.
135gr at 1600fps - 767 ftlbs
155gr at 1475fps - 750 ftlbs
165gr at 1425fps - 744 ftlbs
180gr at 1330fps - 707 ftlbs
200gr at 1270fps - 715 ftlbs
Through what barrel lengths though. Put those rounds though a 16 to 20in barrel and see what velocity they're chugging along at.
Interesting idea.
10mm Auto is a much shorter round than the .30 cal carbine round.
I think velocity would suffer.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. The length of the round would cause velocity to suffer? Velocity would suffer compared to what?
<--- waiting for Tony Rumore to chime in with his M1 Carbine in 10mm Magnum. ;)
10mm MP5's exist; I've even heard of .40's in fact.
Not only do they exist, but they were FBI issue (last I heard they were being phased out for M4s). I also have had the pleasure of shooting two different MP5/10s. One was 2 round burst, the other was full rock and roll, both were FBI issued.
One of the benefits of working at a gun range I guess. We get all kinds there, including the occasional FBI agent wanting to play with his issued sub-gun.
ken93notch
06-30-2008, 14:25
Wouldnt less powder cause a smaller "explosion"? Thus making the bullet travel slower than a round with more powder. Assuming they are the same grain bullets.
I dunno maybe Im way off.
40Pirate
06-30-2008, 14:46
Watching Band of Brothers last night and the profusion of M1 Carbines got me thinking....
The light, handy, easy to carry aspect was favorable. Lack of stopping power was always the 1 thing people disliked (though others, like Audie Murphy, had no apparent problem).
There was a guy some years ago doing conversions of M1 carbines to odd rounds like the .50 AE, etc.
A 10mm M1 carbine would have all the good points, and nobody is going to say in a primarily defensive weapon (which it is) that a 10mm full power round is "weak". Might not be a 7.62, but it will certainly get your attention.
Jeff Cooper had something like this in mind for regular grunts/rear area troops with his "Thumper", a semiauto, 20-round magazine with folding stock in .44 Automag.
They'd probably sell if anyone made them. What do you think?
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/alandp/ebay/date_unknown_ruger_deerstalker.jpg
Ruger thought they'd sell, I have one and don't understand why everyone doesn't.
Wouldnt less powder cause a smaller "explosion"? Thus making the bullet travel slower than a round with more powder. Assuming they are the same grain bullets.
I dunno maybe Im way off.
Since we moved away from black powder, cartridges aren't necessarily loaded based just on the volume of the case any more. In addition, the cases do not have the same diameter (10mm is bigger) and the bullets don't generally weigh the same.
Luckystrike45ac
06-30-2008, 16:20
The longer barrel of a carbine would generate more speed than a pistol barrel for most pistol cartridges. 9mm on the average gains about 200 fps. If the same holds true for 10mm esp in the DT loadings a 10mm M1 would be usefull.
10mm auto 135gr at 1800 -971 ft/lbs
.30 carbine 110 gr at 1950 -929 ft/lbs
There was a guy that did conversions to M1 carbines in 458 Win Mag. I believe the name was LeMag.
liliysdad
06-30-2008, 19:36
There was a guy that did conversions to M1 carbines in 458 Win Mag. I believe the name was LeMag.
Not quite......
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/GA458winmag_122804A.jpg
LeMag used the .45 Winchester Magnum, an elongated .45acp...
The M1 Carbine was a superb design saddled with an anemic cartridge.
The "niche" that the Carbine was supposed to fill was that of the 1911 HANDGUN. It takes a good deal of personal instruction to make the average soldier more than mediocre with a handgun. Whereas you can put a longgun in the hands of just about anyone and they will be able to utilize it effectively with a modicum of training.
One problem with the Carbine was that it was issued in places where the full-sized M1 rifle, or even the M1 or M3 submachine-guns would have been more appropriate. A carbine CAN substitute for a pistol. It CANNOT substitute for a battle-rifle.
The Simonov SKS, with detachable magazines, is the best example of what the M1 Carbine and cartridge combination SHOULD have been.
HiVelSword
06-30-2008, 20:46
<--- waiting for Tony Rumore to chime in with his M1 Carbine in 10mm Magnum. ;)
Yeah, 10mm mag is the ticket. Thinking about getting a 610 and converting it to 10mm mag. It'd make a nice combo.
I have thought it would be a cool conversion, you see one pop up here and there every once in a while too, someone threw out a gunbroker auction here a while back in the 10 ring on one. I would be happy with just about any carbine in 10mm I could get as long as magazines were plentiful and didn't have to be remanufactured or something.
Maybe the up coming MSAR STG in 10mm that takes Glock 20 mags. Have thought about building an AR with a Cavalry Arms lower an Oly 10mm upper and using a Hahn Mag block and grease gun mags too.
Brian Dover
07-01-2008, 00:13
I got to shoot a couple of the LeMag M-1 Carbines in their .45 Winchester Magnum chambering, many years ago at the Second Chance bowling pin shoot. They seemed to function perfectly, and hitting strung-up bowling pins at about 90 yards was not too difficult. The 15 round magazines held 7 or 8 .45WM's, the 30 rounders about 12.
Only problem I recall one of them having was the magazine baseplates trying to come loose under recoil, but that would be an easy fix.
Came very close to buying one of the samples the maker had let me shoot.
Can't see why the 10mm, or perhaps even the 10mm magnum, couldn't be possible..
I think there was one guy who did a 10mm conversion of M1 carbines. His name was La or Le something I think. It has been 5 years or so since I heard of it and it was at least 5 years since he made them. I don't think the guy is alive anymore because when I read about them they were saying he hadn't done them in awhile since he was in bad health. My heart would beat faster if Ruger made the PC series of rifles in .357 Sig.
BTW my PD had MP5s in 10mm up until 2001. I still kind of miss them.
Yeah, 10mm mag is the ticket. Thinking about getting a 610 and converting it to 10mm mag. It'd make a nice combo.
You and me both. Then you can shoot .40S&W, 10mm, and 10mm Mag all in the same gun. Hell, even in the same cylinder. ;)
I also want a 625 and have the cylinder reamed for .460 Rowland then it could shoot .45acp, .45 Super, and .460 Rowland.
Can't see why the 10mm, or perhaps even the 10mm magnum, couldn't be possible..
It is. See post #10.
Waterwagonboom
07-01-2008, 10:20
Unless you just want a project to work on, or want to be the "cool" guy at the range with something different what is the purpose? There are plenty of dead Germans, Italians, Japanese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese and many others who, if they could, would tell you the old .30 carbine does the job.
Unless you just want a project to work on, or want to be the "cool" guy at the range with something different what is the purpose? There are plenty of dead Germans, Italians, Japanese, North Koreans, North Vietnamese and many others who, if they could, would tell you the old .30 carbine does the job.
For some of the more odd-ball cartridges, I don't see much of a point other than a "hey check this out" type setup, but I do like the feel of an M1 Carbine, but would like it in a more common round (as in common today, not 40 years ago). Even a pistol round like .45acp or even 9mm would be nice. .357 Magnum would be pretty sweet out of it as well.
I can see that a pistol caliber carbine isn't really going to beat out a 5.56mm carbine of some kind. But rather than have another carbine in a pistol caliber (power wise that is about what you get with a .30 Carbine) why not chamber it in something you have several of already, which I do have several 10s (and always acquiring more when I can)
Just don't try to make it do something it isn't capable of, which is easy to do when you have a long arm chambered in a pistol caliber.
TheStreetKing
07-01-2008, 13:33
The longer barrel of a carbine would generate more speed than a pistol barrel for most pistol cartridges. 9mm on the average gains about 200 fps. If the same holds true for 10mm esp in the DT loadings a 10mm M1 would be usefull.
10mm auto 135gr at 1800 -971 ft/lbs
.30 carbine 110 gr at 1950 -929 ft/lbs That's at the Muzzle, Post some Ballistics of the Round at 100 Yards and then your talking.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/alandp/ebay/date_unknown_ruger_deerstalker.jpg
Ruger thought they'd sell, I have one and don't understand why everyone doesn't.
Doesn't it only hold 4 rounds? If Ruger made hi-cap mags for that carbine it would sell.
40Pirate
07-01-2008, 14:18
Actually that model is tube fed, not mags. The later ones use the rotary mag IIRC and I agree that hicaps would boost sales.
Luckystrike45ac
07-01-2008, 16:20
That's at the Muzzle, Post some Ballistics of the Round at 100 Yards and then your talking
100 yards
10mm
135gr JHP at 448 ft/lbs (1223fps)
.30 carbine
110 grain at 582 ft/lbs (1543fps)
(the .30 grain round nose does have a better ballistic coefficient but i would expect the hollow point to expand better.)
The 10mm out of a carbine at 100 yards would be similar to .40 S&W at the muzzle.
Yellowfin
07-01-2008, 21:43
Hmm...10mm MP5's phased out? For the love of God SOMEONE PLEASE revoke the 86 Ban!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Back in 1996/97 when our SRT was preparing to buy MP5's from HK, the sales rep brought us 3 for testing. One was 9m/m, one was .40 S&W and the other was in 10m/m. He told us that the 10m/m model was designed primarily for the FBI and may be discontinued(and it was). It was ok, but we chose the .40 cal models mainly because the performance wasn't that much better with 10m/m and our agency was already buying .40 S&W ammo for handguns.
Bottom line is that all three are still pistol rounds and effective range is limited to 100 yards or less.
The performance difference between 10mm and .40 S&W is far greater than the difference between .40 S&W and 9mm Luger. If all you say is true, and I don't doubt you, then why the love for the .40 S&W?
I just find it odd that many of the same people that say 10mm is not that much better than .40, are the same people that say .40 is FAR better than 9mm, when the truth is exactly the opposite.
That being said, I see no reason for a 10mm M1 carbine (other than as a novelty for the 10mm lover), the .30 carbine round is fine.
Sniperfox
07-01-2008, 22:10
Hmm...10mm MP5's phased out? For the love of God SOMEONE PLEASE revoke the 86 Ban!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The 10m/m models didn't catch on primarily because the cartridge didn't make it as a LE round. If you fired full power rounds, the MP5 wasn't as easy to control in full auto and burst as the 9mm and .40 rounds and control is critical in Law Enforcement. We chose the MP5/.40 and never regretted it. Teamed up with Gemtech suppressors, they were great.
Keep in mind that the FBI used a lower powered subsonic 10mm round that the .40 almost matched.
And as I wrote earlier, we were already using .40 cal ammo in the department.
Deaf Smith
07-01-2008, 22:11
Actually, I'd prefer the M1 Carbine in 9x25 Dillion. For those who don't know what that is, it's a 10mm necked down to 9mm! Now THAT would rase the M1 Carbine off it's knees. 125 gr at around 2200 fps is close to a 7.62x39!
Deaf
Not quite......
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/GA458winmag_122804A.jpg
LeMag used the .45 Winchester Magnum, an elongated .45acp...
Oops. Yes, I meant the 45 Win Mag.
If the Ruger 44 Mag carbine had a decent size mag (at least 10 rounds) then I would have bought one of them. Instead I had to settle for a PC4, which is heavier (and less handy) than an M1 carbine.
AustinTx
07-02-2008, 00:33
There was a guy that did conversions to M1 carbines in 458 Win Mag. I believe the name was LeMag.
I would love to see a 458 barrel screwed into a M1 carbine receiver.
At
Actually, I'd prefer the M1 Carbine in 9x25 Dillion. For those who don't know what that is, it's a 10mm necked down to 9mm! Now THAT would rase the M1 Carbine off it's knees. 125 gr at around 2200 fps is close to a 7.62x39!
Deaf
That would be a fun little gun.
AustinTx
07-02-2008, 20:03
Actually, I'd prefer the M1 Carbine in 9x25 Dillion. For those who don't know what that is, it's a 10mm necked down to 9mm! Now THAT would rase the M1 Carbine off it's knees. 125 gr at around 2200 fps is close to a 7.62x39!
Deaf
I'll go with the deaf guy on this. It would be a real barn burner.
At
detroit192
07-02-2008, 20:56
Still waiting for a 357SIG carbine...:whistling:
sandpiper
07-02-2008, 21:18
Mr Murphy
I was not aware of your appreciation of th 10mm.
Got to have at least one.
Tony Rumore
07-03-2008, 06:31
Here's a pic of the 10mm Magnum M1 Carbine I made for my Dad a couple of years ago. Second pic is chambered in 502 Thunder Sabre.
Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/M110mmA.jpg
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/50carbine1.jpg
MrMurphy
07-03-2008, 12:40
Not a 10mm fanboy, though it is a good round.
I figured if you're going to make a M1 carbine with a bit more thump on the recieving end, the 10mm is a similar-sized round, with good penetration and shoots fairly flat, that is commonly available.
I know people use M1 carbines for hunting and a 10mm model would make a bit more sense for pigs and deer at close range, while retaining all the good characteristics (light, handy, pointable), and for self defense, it's no AR and not a rifle round, but a 10mm with a full power load will still put the hurt on someone. More so than say a .40 S&W or 9mm carbine.
I never understood why the FBI issued 10mm MP5's (with lower powered ammo that was equivalent to a .40 cartridge) and .40 cal Glock handguns. Why not keep the ammo compatible?
Fingolfin
07-11-2008, 18:43
I never understood why the FBI issued 10mm MP5's (with lower powered ammo that was equivalent to a .40 cartridge) and .40 cal Glock handguns. Why not keep the ammo compatible?
When the FBI was looking at the 10mm MP5, the .40 S&W did not yet exist.
shadow_dog
07-11-2008, 19:23
FWIW,
the wife and I were at the NRA convention and attended the Ted Nugent speech. Uncle Ted made the remark about keeping a 10mm HK carbine in his vehicle while riding around Texas. Good enough for Uncle Ted, good enough for me:whistling:
When the FBI was looking at the 10mm MP5, the .40 S&W did not yet exist.
The FBI started issuing the MP-5/10mms about 1996-97.
The first .40 to hit the market, the Glock G-22, was introduced about 1989-1990.
The FBI was issuing the MP-5/10mms at just about the same time they adopted the .40 Glock G-23 and G-22 as standard issue for their agents.
If the Ruger 44 Mag carbine had a decent size mag (at least 10 rounds) then I would have bought one of them. Instead I had to settle for a PC4, which is heavier (and less handy) than an M1 carbine.
Maybe modern metallurgy can take care of any problems, but I'd heard that the Ruger 44 was kind of fragile relative to the power of the cartridge. My understanding is based on an article I'd read way-back-when, so if anyone knows otherwise, please feel free to correct me.
All this talk about an M-1 carbine chambered in 10mm is getting me kind of juiced, however... :)
AustinTx
07-16-2008, 20:07
Maybe modern metallurgy can take care of any problems, but I'd heard that the Ruger 44 was kind of fragile relative to the power of the cartridge. My understanding is based on an article I'd read way-back-when, so if anyone knows otherwise, please feel free to correct me.
All this talk about an M-1 carbine chambered in 10mm is getting me kind of juiced, however... :)
JFrame, This is exactly what I remember about the original 44 mag. But, like you, I cannot quote the source of this information. I read that they were not strong enough for long time use. I have read so many gun books since the Ruger 44 carbine was introduced, I just can't quote the source.
At
40Pirate
07-16-2008, 21:02
JFrame, This is exactly what I remember about the original 44 mag. But, like you, I cannot quote the source of this information. I read that they were not strong enough for long time use. I have read so many gun books since the Ruger 44 carbine was introduced, I just can't quote the source.
At
Wow, never saw 'fragile' used to describe Ruger.
Squaw Man Wolfer
07-16-2008, 21:58
Don't remember the precise facts, but in the early 1950's, the U.S. Army tested several designs to replace the Garand. They seriously considered adopting the M - 1 carbine in a .22 or .25 caliber, with a fairly short case.
It was very much like an M-16 cartridge, but less powerfull. Still, it would be more rifle than handgun.
Of corse, they adopted the M - 14.
USMC1369
07-20-2008, 15:59
http://www.johnwmyers.com/IGB-20-500.jpg
Yeah, 10mm mag is the ticket. Thinking about getting a 610 and converting it to 10mm mag. It'd make a nice combo.
I have done this converion many time to the S&W 610, you can get the brass from starline
and the reamer are easy to get as well just need the spec, and loading data which you can get from accurate arms loading data book #(1) first book they put out , the data was for
auto mag long slide years back , only made for one year. it is a real fun gun to shoot but double check your loading, I was getting around 1680fps with the 135grn jhp very loud!!
Have fun but be careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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