My idea for the ideal utility rifle

[ElevatedThreat]

Would you buy this gun if it were manufactured?



Stainless Remington Model 7 action, coated matte black with some type of tough, waterproof, abrasion-resistant finish.

Light-to-medium contour barrel, 20 inches long.

Chambered for 6.5mm Grendel, 6.8mm SPC, or (if you must), 5.56mm NATO.

Bottom metal takes a flush-fit 5-round mag, but also accepts standard high-capacity AR-type magazines.

Open sights, with rear aperture sight that folds down into rear receiver bridge when optical sight is attached.

Scope mounts with quick-detach rings, into MIL STD 1913 bases machined integral to receiver bridge, with provisions for an EO sight mounted to the front receiver bridge when desired.

Fiberglass stock, bedded with full-length aluminum insert, holds extra 5- or 10-round magazine, flush in conformal cavity in buttstock.



I am not aware of a source for such a rifle, but I think this would make an excellent all-around utility rifle, for anything from camping to hunting to SHTF.

What do you think?

(Any idea who could make such a beast?)

-ET

[liliysdad]

Sounds real close to Colonel Coopers Scout concept, with the exception of the caliber. I do like the concept very, very much, however.

[Reb 56]

I like the concept except would like to see it in a more readily available calibers such as .308. Not sure if 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel will ever be produced in enough volume to warrant owning such a rifle unless you handload. Also think in such a rifle a 10 rnd detachible magazine would be more practical.

[bennwj]

Would you buy this gun if it were manufactured?



Stainless Remington Model 7 action, coated matte black with some type of tough, waterproof, abrasion-resistant finish.

Light-to-medium contour barrel, 20 inches long.

Chambered for 6.5mm Grendel, 6.8mm SPC, or (if you must), 5.56mm NATO.

Bottom metal takes a flush-fit 5-round mag, but also accepts standard high-capacity AR-type magazines.

Open sights, with rear aperture sight that folds down into rear receiver bridge when optical sight is attached.

Scope mounts with quick-detach rings, into MIL STD 1913 bases machined integral to receiver bridge, with provisions for an EO sight mounted to the front receiver bridge when desired.

Fiberglass stock, bedded with full-length aluminum insert, holds extra 5- or 10-round magazine, flush in conformal cavity in buttstock.



I am not aware of a source for such a rifle, but I think this would make an excellent all-around utility rifle, for anything from camping to hunting to SHTF.

What do you think?

(Any idea who could make such a beast?)

-ET

Sounds like a fantastic project. I have a Model 7 in .308 with a wood stock and a 1-4 Leupold that would make a good starting point for such a project

[ElevatedThreat]

Sounds real close to Colonel Coopers Scout concept, with the exception of the caliber. I do like the concept very, very much, however.

Yep, a similar idea -- but updated with a few differences that are important to me.

I never liked the Jeff Cooper forward-mount, intermediate-eye-relief low-power scope idea, for example. I prefer the flexibility of choosing open irons for short range, an EO sight for medium range, and a conventional higher-power scope for long range.

And did Cooper ever advocate using detachable mags? I think he wanted the action machined to take old-fashioned stripper-clips in .308....

Cooper did advocate the integral, fold-down iron sights, and the clever mag-in-the-stock thing.

Some might say, "why not just get a precision AR in 6.5mm Grendel?"

But I like bolt rifles for their simplicity, reliability, and less-military appearance in uppity jurisdictions (like the whole state of Pennsylvania, for example, that currently forbids hunting with a semi-auto).

-ET

[ElevatedThreat]

I like the concept except would like to see it in a more readily available calibers such as .308. Not sure if 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel will ever be produced in enough volume to warrant owning such a rifle unless you handload. Also think in such a rifle a 10 rnd detachible magazine would be more practical.

Agreed. .308 would be popular, as Col. Jeff Cooper advocated in his Scout.

But as you note, a 20-round mag in .308, like for an M1 or a FAL, is a real handful in the weight dept.

Imagine such a rifle with a 25 or even 30 round mag in 6.5mm. That's a lot of ammo in a relatively manageable package, even when prone.

And the lower-recoil of the small-to-medium-sized 6.5mm cartridge makes a lightweight rifle like the Model 7 not only practical but pleasant, while retaining the potential to shoot out to 1000 yards with the right scope, if the shooter is up to that challenge.

-ET

[NDGlock]

Something like this:

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/bolt_action_prac.asp

but a bit lighter.

I like your idea - you could do what a buddy of mine did. He got a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 and then re-barrel it in 6.5 Grendel with a 18 inch barrel. It has mags, controlled round feed in a trim package.

[ElevatedThreat]

Something like this:

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/bolt_action_prac.asp

but a bit lighter.

I like your idea - you could do what a buddy of mine did. He got a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 and then re-barrel it in 6.5 Grendel with a 18 inch barrel. It has mags, controlled round feed in a trim package.

That Brockman rifle site is getting bookmarked!

If I decide to invest the big bucks in this, I'll have to see if they'd consider building my idea for me. They have some of the components already, like the fold-down sight.

Working with a mag-fed Model 7 would be a real change, though, for guys who obviously like the controlled-round feed of the Model 70, and stripper-clips vice mags.

And that trim little CZ might be a viable alternative to the Model 7. Hmmnnn....

-ET

[For Liberty]

Why use a "lock, stock, and barrel" design that needs to be bedded?

Why don't you do something more like an AR with a free-float tube?

[liliysdad]

Yep, a similar idea -- but updated with a few differences that are important to me.

I never liked the Jeff Cooper forward-mount, intermediate-eye-relief low-power scope idea, for example. I prefer the flexibility of choosing open irons for short range, an EO sight for medium range, and a conventional higher-power scope for long range.

And did Cooper ever advocate using detachable mags? I think he wanted the action machined to take old-fashioned stripper-clips in .308....

Cooper did advocate the integral, fold-down iron sights, and the clever mag-in-the-stock thing.

Some might say, "why not just get a precision AR in 6.5mm Grendel?"

But I like bolt rifles for their simplicity, reliability, and less-military appearance in uppity jurisdictions (like the whole state of Pennsylvania, for example, that currently forbids hunting with a semi-auto).

-ET

I really like the choice in caliber, with the exception of the 5.56 caveat. The 27's offer a substantial amount over the the 5.56, while the .308 is simply too much a large portion of the time.

Colonel Cooper did advocate detachable magazines, they just weren't a viable option at that time. As for the intermediate eye relief optic, much of this is personal preference. Personally, I love them, if you use a quality scope.

That being said, an Aimpoint in a forward mount, with a 3x magnifier may very well be the very best of both worlds, and one I think the Colonel would approve of.

Overall, I really, really like the concept you have put forth, but then again, I am a die hard Scout fanatic.

[vafish]

Why use a "lock, stock, and barrel" design that needs to be bedded?

Why don't you do something more like an AR with a free-float tube?

He already said he was in PA and can't use a semi auto for hunting.

ET,

To answer your question, sounds like a neat project. I wouldn't buy one personally though. Sounds to me like too much of a compromise gun, you know jack of all trades, master of none.

A Model 7KS in .260 Remington would do nicely though.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/seven/model_seven_KS.asp

Even the regular old Model 7 XCR with the Stainless covered in Black Duracoat chambered in .243 or 7-08 would be a good choice.

Just no removable mag.

[For Liberty]

He already said he was in PA and can't use a semi auto for hunting.

ET,

To answer your question, sounds like a neat project. I wouldn't buy one personally though. Sounds to me like too much of a compromise gun, you know jack of all trades, master of none.

A Model 7KS in .260 Remington would do nicely though.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/custom_shop/seven/model_seven_KS.asp

Even the regular old Model 7 XCR with the Stainless covered in Black Duracoat chambered in .243 or 7-08 would be a good choice.

Just no removable mag.

I didn't say semi-automatic.

[ElevatedThreat]

Why use a "lock, stock, and barrel" design that needs to be bedded?

Why don't you do something more like an AR with a free-float tube?

Actually, a full-length aluminum block in the stock, like I'm specifying in my proposed gun, results in exactly that -- a fully free-floated barrel.

These folks:

http://www.accurateinnovations.com/

can even do it in a AAA fancy walnut stock.

-ET

[ElevatedThreat]

I wouldn't buy one personally though. Sounds to me like too much of a compromise gun, you know jack of all trades, master of none.

The point of this gun is NOT to be a compromise.

The caliber is selected to have good "wound ballistics" at all ranges up to 1000 yards, accuracy enough for the extreme long-range sniping permitted by the Grendel's very flat trajectory, and a hi-cap mag capacity adequate for close-range self defense.

The only limitation for close combat is the bolt-action, but if you use the technique that the British used for firing their bolt-action SMLE (bolt knob held between thumb and index finger, trigger pulled with middle finger), you can achieve near-semi-auto rates of aimed fire with a bolt gun.

(The Germans in WWII first met the British SMLE in a cornfield where they could not see the British troops firing their bolt-operated, stripper-clip-fed, 10-round magazine-capacity rifles. Their survivors reported that the British were armed with some sort of new automatic rifle.)

-ET

[frogger42]

I'd prefer it in .308 and in that case, it already exists...

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/index.php?id=14&L=1

[StoneDog]

My "perfect world" utility rifle would be close to the specs listed above but with m1a or A2 style iron sights, a rail forward of the action for a scout scope and a straight pull bolt like the k31.

[mac66]

An old Remington 788 in 243 would fit most of the criteria mentioned. While not stainless it could be coated with something for increased corrosion resistance. It has a detachable mag, sights etc. They came with 20" bbls. Throw on a some type of polymer stock and a decent 1.5-4X variable scope and you would be pretty much be good to go.

[MrMurphy]

Robar makes a couple bolt guns that take M14 magazines in 7.62 Nato.

Making a "scout version" of the same gun could be easily accomplished.

[vafish]

The point of this gun is NOT to be a compromise.

The caliber is selected to have good "wound ballistics" at all ranges up to 1000 yards, accuracy enough for the extreme long-range sniping permitted by the Grendel's very flat trajectory, and a hi-cap mag capacity adequate for close-range self defense.

The only limitation for close combat is the bolt-action, but if you use the technique that the British used for firing their bolt-action SMLE (bolt knob held between thumb and index finger, trigger pulled with middle finger), you can achieve near-semi-auto rates of aimed fire with a bolt gun.

(The Germans in WWII first met the British SMLE in a cornfield where they could not see the British troops firing their bolt-operated, stripper-clip-fed, 10-round magazine-capacity rifles. Their survivors reported that the British were armed with some sort of new automatic rifle.)

-ET

I disagree completely. I think you are making compromises in your rifle choice. Whether you want to admit it or not.


If you want a gun to preform as a 1,000 yard sniper rifle and close combat, then yes your choice is a compromise and it will perform neither roll as well as a dedicated rifle will.

You said:

all-around utility rifle, for anything from camping to hunting to SHTF.

A 1,000 yard sniper rifle will need to be big and heavy, way more than I want to carry when I'm hunting. Make the gun nice and light to carry for hunting, camping ect.. and it doesn't perform as well at long range, even if the round it up to the task. I don't think the 6.5 Grendel is the ultimate 1,000 yard round. it has some nice ballistics, but there are better choices for 1,000 round shooting.

You want it to do SHTF duty, but you pick a relatively obscure round like the 6.5 Grendel that will be difficult to resupply.

If you are trying to make one long gun do everything you are making compromises some where. It still may be a very nice all around rifle.

In my mind a Remington 700 ADL in .30-06 with iron sights, see through mounts, a scope, and a Kwik Clip removable mag kit would work just as well or better.

[Bren]

For this to make sense, you have to answer 1 question - Why would this make a better "all-around utility rifle, for anything from camping to hunting to SHTF" than my AR-15?

The only answer I have is that it might be good where semi-autos are restricted, but since the mags are also restricted in such places, that doesn't do it.

[hardballing]

Uh...check out Savage Arms.

They make a model called "the Scout" that except of the 6.5 caliber is exactly what you are describing. Based on the Model 110 action with the AccuTrigger system if I remember correctly. 5 rnd detach mags (no AR compatibility though that I am aware of) and relatively inexpensive at around $400.00 per copy.

Just a thought.

[ElevatedThreat]

For this to make sense, you have to answer 1 question - Why would this make a better "all-around utility rifle, for anything from camping to hunting to SHTF" than my AR-15?

The only answer I have is that it might be good where semi-autos are restricted, but since the mags are also restricted in such places, that doesn't do it.

I used to own a couple of high-end ARs, and they were fun range guns. But after trying to use them in the field under tough conditions, I sold them off, and I will never own another. I became VERY unhappy with both the action design and the terminal "performance" of the little 5.56mm cartridge.

I own a sizable chunk of rural land in the Northeast where I hunt whitetail, but unfortunately it's also home to packs of feral dogs (domestic dogs dumped by their owners, that form large packs and rip up my deer herd) that I need to thin out with extreme prejudice every winter.

Trying to use my ARs for this ugly task, working from a snowmobile in cold and snow, was an exercise in complete frustration. The AR action that ran fine on the range in summer simply refused to run in very cold winter temps, when liquid lubes are out because they congeal.

I don't know if it was the extreme low temps, the lack of liquid lube/using "dry" lubes, or both, but I just could not make an AR run reliably in extreme winter conditions. Something was seemingly always either jammed, frozen open, or frozen shut!

And then there was the totally inadequate performance of 5.56mm ammo....

The light "blitz" type bullets that fans of .223 hype so much for CQB refused to penetrate the light thorn scrub, dry grass, and snow that often blocked shots as the dogs ran up to their shoulders through the drifts.

Heavy .224 bullets required a faster twist barrel, and while they did penetrate cover somewhat better, they also just drilled right through the animals with very poor terminal effects.

Believe it or not, plain vanilla, middle-weight 55-grain soft-points actually worked best, but "best" out of the little .223 round was a VERY relative term.

I also HATED detail stripping and cleaning the ARs in the field, when I winter-camped in a wall-tent heated only with a small camping stove.

I eventually ditched the unreliable, poor-killing ARs for a stainless Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62x39. I've never looked back!

The Mini-30 runs great with no liquid lube and never freezes, it's 100% reliable feeding from 10-round Pro-Mag magazines, and Remington 125 grain soft-point ammo penetrates light cover like it isn't there, and kills the tough wild dogs like an anvil is falling on them.

And to clean the Mini-30 in the field, I just spray it out (OUTSIDE THE OPEN-FLAME-HEATED TENT!!) with an evaporating aerosol cleaner (the can carefully warmed inside my jacket) and then run it mostly "dry," with just tiny traces of Tetra synthetic grease applied to a few key friction points.

I'm thinking of upgrading my Mini-30 to one of the new Mini-6.8mm SPC guns, to get a bit flatter trajectory. I expect it will still penetrate light cover and kill just as well as the excellent 7.62x39, while extending my range a bit.

But you could not even give me, for free, another AR, and especially not one chambered in 5.56mm! (I'm sorry, but that is my real-world field experience of the gun and the cartridge. Flame away if you must....)

I think my proposed Model 7 utility rifle in 6.8mm or 6.5mm would make an even better feral dog rifle -- especially feeding from a hi-cap magazine, with no worries about semi-auto functioning under extreme winter conditions in the field.

And I could keep it clean in my tent with just a bore-snake!

-ET

[TScottW99]

I like your idea with the exception of cartridge. I'm a fan of the Grendel however if I was going bolt I would opt for the .260Rem. Still a short action but a bit better ballistics while keeping the 6.5 bullet.

[ElevatedThreat]

I like your idea with the exception of cartridge. I'm a fan of the Grendel however if I was going bolt I would opt for the .260Rem. Still a short action but a bit better ballistics while keeping the 6.5 bullet.

No question .260 offers better external ballistics -- but then so does .308.

The point of the little 6.5mm Grendel or the 6.8mm SPC would be to be able to use the relatively compact (compared to .308-based rounds) high-cap AR-type magazines. A 5-round mag that fit flush would make the bolt gun look "politically correct" for most uses, while still reserving the ability to insert a 25- or 30-round mag for serious social uses.....

-ET

[TScottW99]

True.

I know a couple of the guys over at 6.5Grendel modified the CZ carbine to 6.5. would make for a nice little package.

[moeman]

Remington makes these guns that use AR-15 mags and have barrels from 18.5 to 22":

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/smsil_7615.jpg

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/smsil_7615camo.jpg

[Bren]

Trying to use my ARs for this ugly task, working from a snowmobile in cold and snow, was an exercise in complete frustration. The AR action that ran fine on the range in summer simply refused to run in very cold winter temps, when liquid lubes are out because they congeal.

I don't know if it was the extreme low temps, the lack of liquid lube/using "dry" lubes, or both, but I just could not make an AR run reliably in extreme winter conditions. Something was seemingly always either jammed, frozen open, or frozen shut!

And then there was the totally inadequate performance of 5.56mm ammo....

The light "blitz" type bullets that fans of .223 hype so much for CQB refused to penetrate the light thorn scrub, dry grass, and snow that often blocked shots as the dogs ran up to their shoulders through the drifts.

Heavy .224 bullets required a faster twist barrel, and while they did penetrate cover somewhat better, they also just drilled right through the animals with very poor terminal effects.

Believe it or not, plain vanilla, middle-weight 55-grain soft-points actually worked best, but "best" out of the little .223 round was a VERY relative term.

I also HATED detail stripping and cleaning the ARs in the field, when I winter-camped in a wall-tent heated only with a small camping stove.

I eventually ditched the unreliable, poor-killing ARs for a stainless Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62x39. I've never looked back!


I think the Mini-30 is a good caliber, but not much of a rifle. I've used my AR deer hunting a couple of times and it has been 1 shot 1 kill both times on good sized deer, no problems with the caliber. As for lube problems, that's more of an operator error. If you think you need a lot of lube, your gun isn't going to work in the cold. I use what most people would call no lube and my guns work fine for hunting, competition, etc. down well below freezing.

[ElevatedThreat]

I think the Mini-30 is a good caliber, but not much of a rifle. I've used my AR deer hunting a couple of times and it has been 1 shot 1 kill both times on good sized deer, no problems with the caliber.

What bullet, barrel twist, and range?

If you had a fast twist barrel, a heavy-for-caliber bullet, and the range was over 100 yards, I'd not be surprised that you got good kills with the little .223 -- especially on a standing target that allowed you to pick your shot placement on neck, spine, or heart.

-ET