True or False: Defense calibers that don't start with a "4" are underpowered.

[bestseller92]

Let's consider this adage:

"Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

This of course means that any handgun caliber which isn't at least a .40 caliber is pretty much not up to snuff for self defense.

So, in your opinion, is this true?

I say no. While the .40 calibers and over are generally fine self defense calibers, anyone who says the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG aren't up to snuff for defense is just plain wrong. In fact, I'd take a .357 Magnum revolver over any .40 (and this includes the .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, and even the mighty .44 Magnum) caliber cartridge, just based on ballistics. The 125 grain .357 JHP has a 95%+ one shot stop record in police shootings.

What do you think?

[G31Steve]

Yeah there is something to it that's why I carry one that starts with a "9".

[FLRon777]

Let's consider this adage:

"Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."


I would not consider some clever phrase worthy of a gun salesman at a big box retailer the final word of ballistics. :crazy:

[BadAndy]

What do I think? I don't think there's anything wrong with 9mm, .357Mag/SIG but I'll keep shooting .45ACP because that's what I like.

[Blitzer]

Not a self defense issue under most condition but I could take my 6 5/8" .357 mag Blackhawk and drill a target COM at 100 yards all day.

;)

[moeman]

9mm is a great round too... Most people can get better shot to shot splits on target due to the reduced recoil... So the .357 cut-off desn't work for me.

[slewfoot]

If you can hit what you aim at, 9mm will do just fine. If you can't, buy some grenades.

[SergeantC]

If you have to use a handgun in self-defense, the goblin isn't going to care what caliber it is.

He'll be just as dead if you kill him with a 9mm as he will if you use a .45.

[DocwithGlock]

If you can hit what you aim at, 9mm will do just fine. If you can't, buy some grenades.

This is one of the best responses to the caliber war i have ever heard!:rofl:

[Steve in Az]

No one can dispute the legendary .357Magnum as a man stopper.

[Guyver]

Let's consider this adage:

"Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

This of course means that any handgun caliber which isn't at least a .40 caliber is pretty much not up to snuff for self defense.

So, in your opinion, is this true?

I say no. While the .40 calibers and over are generally fine self defense calibers, anyone who says the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG aren't up to snuff for defense is just plain wrong. In fact, I'd take a .357 Magnum revolver over any .40 (and this includes the .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, and even the mighty .44 Magnum) caliber cartridge, just based on ballistics. The 125 grain .357 JHP has a 95%+ one shot stop record in police shootings.

What do you think?

That's a big "False!"

The 125grain JHP 357 Magnum is one of the best self defense loads out there... But there really is no blatently and always underpowered round, because situations will dictate what is underpowered or not.
A 22lr, from a Beretta Bobcat, to the head of an attacker, weilding a knife, when he is 3 feet away, will remedy his ills... but wouldn't quite be up to snuff if he was 50 feet away, and shooting at you. Your statement is way too vague....

[sebecman]

I have heard the .500 S+W is a real show stopper, but then the whole caliber debate is a matter of preference....:deadhorse:

moving on...

[oneshortofpar]

No one can dispute the legendary .357Magnum as a man stopper.

I sure as heck wouldn't wanna get hit with one. Enough fire comes out of my S&W 65 to give me a tan:smoking:

[LoneRanger19]

That's funny I remember hearing that anything not penetrating 12" of gel is underpowered, yet most .45 hollowpoint rounds will not reach that far. Like somehow having a bullet expand to 3/4 of an inch and penetrate 10" is useless.

Americans have magnum issues. For some reason we need big trucks and big bullets. Europeans had no problems killing people with .32acp, .380, and 9mm.

[Aahzz]

9 is fine, that's what most of mine are.

I don't really even feel inadequately armed with my .380, since that's me "always" gun. Nor do I feel my wife is underpowered with her .380, which is her "only" gun.

Shot placement is key. .380 is definitely the mildest I like to go, and I prefer 9 or above - but the gun you have with you is far better than the one in the safe at home.

[GTFord1]

100 reply re-hashed thread coming right up!

[ChuteTheMall]

I prefer a caliber which starts with a "7" in front of a decimal point.

7.62x39 http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8333/aksmiley1rz7.gif

[ChuteTheMall]

Europeans had no problems killing people with .32acp, .380, and 9mm.

Until we waded ashore shooting .45acp, 30-06, and .30 carbine about 60 years ago. They surrendered or died.

[Thunderhawk88]

Ahhh....the monthly caliber war. Is it that hard to find new topics to start threads? :whistling:

[Berto]

False.

Properly loaded 9mm and .38sp have proven to work well. Most folks espousing such advice often rely on a .38sp in their pocket.

[CajunBass]

Why limit your "no" choices to those two? There are a lot of others that begin with a number other than four.

[NotSoFast]

What a stacked poll. There are other great defense rounds and weapons. I would consider anything from a .38 on up to be good. Ans since you're not limiting this to handguns, there are guns that start with .2 that also are great - as in .223.

[Arc Angel]

I don't consider the 357 magnum to be a, 'superb' self-defense caliber. At the same time neither do I consider the 40 S&W to be, 'superb'. So there ya go! The poll's original premise is flawed; and, as poorly stated as they are, the original questions cannot be accurately answered. ;)

[cjlandry]

A proper defensive round starts with a "12" and ends with a "gauge". ;)

[Andy W]

The question is unfairly biased against the 9mm cartridge.

[intheburbs]

A proper defensive round starts with a "12" and ends with a "gauge". ;)

+1

However, I wouldn't feel "undergunned" carrying my 8-shot .357 revolver.

[Guyver]

Well, in truth, the proper defensive round is whatever you have access to if you need it....

A .22short is better than nothing...

No matter what the scenerio is... but always be sure to use your best weapon first... Your brain...

[bestseller92]

I would not consider some clever phrase worthy of a gun salesman at a big box retailer the final word of ballistics. :crazy:

Wasn't a salesman; that's a common adage, found here among other places:

http://www.frfrogspad.com/frogrules.htm

[El_Ron1]

What if it's lauched out of a junker 1911?

[jsm190]

I have heard the .500 S+W is a real show stopper, but then the whole caliber debate is a matter of preference....:deadhorse:

moving on...

Thats only because the muzzle blast and percussion wave will stop them with one shot even if the bullet misses.:cool:

[bestseller92]

9mm is a great round too... Most people can get better shot to shot splits on target due to the reduced recoil... So the .357 cut-off desn't work for me.

T'was no slight to the 9mm that I didn't mention it; I mentioned the .357s because they are the most unquestionably effective sub-.40 caliber rounds.

[rjm]

I like the .357 as a defensive caliber so much I just bought a new revolver chambered for it today, next up is a .327 magnum and maybe a .357 sig thrown if for good measure.

[9 Micky Mouse]

Hello all by my screen name yes can guess what I shoot. I was at the range on 28 June 08, I was shooting a dot drill, went from there to life size targets and so on. I did not know I had a bunch of people behind me watching all of whom had .40 and .45s they all said from what people tell them about the 9mm and police and so on. Make a long story short I picked up 12 students.

Carry what you shoot well with and practice a lot.

[Dean]

This member makes an excellent point:
The 125grain JHP 357 Magnum is one of the best self defense loads out there. But there is no "underpowered round", because situations will dictate what is underpowered or not.
A 22LR from a Beretta Bobcat to the head of an attacker will remedy his ills, but wouldn't quite be up to snuff if he was 50 feet away and shooting at you.

This is of course true.
I carry a G23 forty cal because I like the forty cal. It helps me sleep good at night. Now it's blazing hot summertime so my J-frame or Walther PPK/S is carried in denim shorts.

Life is good. :drillsgt:

[cjlandry]

What if it's lauched out of a junker 1911?

I don't know, but I might not mind if it were powered by a Junkers Jomo 004.

[bac1023]

Wow. I'm surprised the poll isn't even more lopsided than it is. Do 13 people really think the 357mag isn't a good defensive cartridge? :uglylol: :crazy:

[raxar]

ugh, indeed

[grfd600]

...Yes.

[cjlandry]

Wow. I'm surprised the poll isn't even more lopsided than it is. Do 13 people really think the 357mag isn't a good defensive cartridge? :uglylol: :crazy:

I don't know. Do they?

I think anything that puts pieces of metal into or through my body makes a GREAT defensive tool.

I don't plan to attack anyone who has any level of capability of putting metals into or through any part of my body.

So, yeah, I think the .357 magnum is as good a defensive cartridge as any handgun cartridge.

But I still prefer a cartridge (shell) that starts with 12 and ends with gauge. I like it even better when it's sub-titled high-velocity 7/8-oz. slug. :supergrin:

[PillBox]

100 reply re-hashed thread coming right up!

Quit reading them, then.

[Cross-X]

I drunk the Koolaide -- I believe in the power of .357 Mag and sister .357 Sig.

[cjlandry]

I drunk the Koolaide -- I believe in the power of .357 Mag and sister .357 Sig.

Good job! You know which one of the two is the girl cartridge. ;)

[bac1023]

I drunk the Koolaide -- I believe in the power of .357 Mag and sister .357 Sig.

Me too. :cool:

[Uzi4U]

Anything over a .16 can make a defense caliber.

[Beware Owner]

Florida woman survives gunshot between the eyes
Bullet shatters, bounces off skull of 42-year-old victim in road rage assault

Emergency room doctors apologized to the 42-year-old woman who had come in for treatment for staring at her in disbelief. It wasn’t every day — in fact, it was never — that they saw somebody with a large-caliber gunshot wound between the eyes who not only was alive, but wasn’t even unconscious or seriously injured.

Call it Marie’s Miracle. As reported for TODAY by NBC’s Martin Savidge, it happened late last Saturday night, when Marie, who does not want to reveal her last name for fear of retaliation, her boyfriend and her 22-year-old daughter were driving through Tampa on their way home to Riverview, Fla., after a night out.

“We had a nice night out to the movies, got something to eat, were just rolling down the road,” she said.
As they were driving on 50th Street in Tampa, a white Nissan Sentra with two people inside and a gray Nissan Altima carrying four people pulled up alongside the truck in which the trio were driving. When they stopped at a traffic light, the occupants of the two cars started yelling at them, shouting obscenities and gesturing with their hands. Then a man got out of the Sentra and another left the Altima and started yelling at Marie’s boyfriend, who had rolled down his window to find out what the problem was.

The light turned green, the men got back into their cars, and all three vehicles continued on their way. There are three lanes of traffic in each direction on the street, and the two cars got on either side of the truck.

“They were shifting lanes, and trying to box us in and trying to run into the side of the truck,” Marie said. They also continued yelling obscenities, and one man in the Sentra looked at Marie and told her he was going to kill her.

At the next light, the driver of the Sentra attempted to pay off on his promise. Horrified, Marie saw him stand up on the seat and rise through the car’s open sunroof.

“I seen him rise out of the sunroof like in the movies, and he pulled his gun up and turned it and I heard it fire,” she said.

The two cars sped away, and police are still attempting to track down the assailants.

Police investigators would theorize that the man fired three shots from a gun that they believe was a .44-caliber handgun. One of the bullets struck Marie directly between the eyes.

It should have killed her. Instead, the bullet shattered into three pieces against her skull. The fragments ran under her skin, exited through her cheek on one side of her head and near her ear on the other.

At first, she didn’t know she’d been hit. Then she realized blood was pouring from her head.

“I thought I was gonna, was gonna die, but I stayed conscious,” she said.

Her boyfriend pulled into a convenience store parking lot while her daughter called 911. An EMS crew quickly arrived to transport her to Tampa General Hospital, where Dr. Brad Peckler was one of the first to see her.

[Yellowfin]

If you have to use a handgun in self-defense, the goblin isn't going to care what caliber it is.

He'll be just as dead if you kill him with a 9mm as he will if you use a .45. Immediately? There are no degrees of dead, but plenty of difference in hits the floor on the spot to keeps running, stabs/shoots/clubs then drops to stabs/shoots/clubs then drives away and drops 20 minutes later.

[Beware Owner]

This poll is a railroad.....

[Razoreye]

I wonder why people continue to post these threads and act like something is going to end it, like Jesus himself would create an account to declare a winner. :headscratch:

[Solid]

19 idiots so far

[ChuteTheMall]

It should have killed her. Instead, the bullet shattered into three pieces against her skull.

I'm looking for a hard headed woman,
One who will make me do my best
- Cat Stevens

:alex:

[Beware Owner]

I'm looking for a hard headed woman,
One who will make me do my best
- Cat Stevens

:alex:

Pretty much trumps both poll options. Railroad.

[linh811]

another day, another dumbarse caliber thread started by yet another dumbarse here on GT

[mitchshrader]

you can get a 180 grain bullet in .357, .40, or .45, @ 1050 ft per second.. which by MY calculations produces identical ME, and in my estimate identical results for any practical purpose..

ya think the miscreant is gonna be able to tell 'em apart? somehow I doubt it.

[carbofan21]

no offense, but this poll is retarded

[toasterlocker]

True or False: This thread doesn't belong here in "Non-Glock" firearms, but should be in "Caliber Corner."

I think we all know the answer to that.

Thanks for polluting this part of the forum with another caliber war that doesn't even belong here. If I wanted to see another idiotic caliber war, I would have gone to caliber corner. Where are the mods when you need them?

[bestseller92]

another day, another dumbarse caliber thread started by yet another dumbarse here on GT

And apparently another dumbass replying to it.

[bestseller92]

True or False: This thread doesn't belong here in "Non-Glock" firearms, but should be in "Caliber Corner."

I think we all know the answer to that.

Thanks for polluting this part of the forum with another caliber war that doesn't even belong here. If I wanted to see another idiotic caliber war, I would have gone to caliber corner. Where are the mods when you need them?

Is there a law that says you must not only click on a thread you despise, but reply to it in a nasty fashion as well?

[cjlandry]

Is there a law that says you must not only click on a thread you despise, but reply to it in a nasty fashion as well?

It's not a written law, but it appears to be a natural law of internet message boards.

[adamg01]

Calibers that are fired out of Glocks have the best kill ratio.
:tongueout:

[Beware Owner]

Is there a law that says you must not only click on a thread you despise, but reply to it in a nasty fashion as well?

Don't take it to offense. You couldn't possibly please anybody, even if you had posted it in the caliber corner.

[HiVelSword]

I say no. While the .40 calibers and over are generally fine self defense calibers, anyone who says the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG aren't up to snuff for defense is just plain wrong. In fact, I'd take a .357 Magnum revolver over any .40 (and this includes the .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, and even the mighty .44 Magnum) caliber cartridge, just based on ballistics. The 125 grain .357 JHP has a 95%+ one shot stop record in police shootings.

What do you think?

I believe that with good defensive bullet design the .38 Special, 9mm, .38 Super, .357 SIG, 9x23, .357 mag, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Special, .44 mag, .45 ACP, .45 Super etc. are all very capable of saving one's posterior. I don't discriminate!

Sounds like you took that one shot stop figure from Marshall/Sanow. Last I checked the best .40 and .45 ACP loads were right up there too. In fact, the best 9mm's are at 90-91% so what's 6 percentage points?

If you look at the MArshall/Sanow numbers it would point to the 9mm having the edge due to it's softer recoil and higher capacity. But what if you need to punch through a car door or windshield? That's where the .357's and heavier hitters come in. You see, there's always trade-offs.

The bottom line is, carry the revolver/pistol you are most proficient with loaded with a good hollowpoint design and you're good to go.

Me, I like them all. My signature might make you think I prefer 9mm but that's just for the ignorant who say it's a pipsqueak. Sure I've carried plenty of 9's but I've also carried plenty .44 mags too. And when Colt's new Delta Elite comes out (or the Vltor Fortis) I'll be carrying a 10mm again.

[HiVelSword]

I drunk the Koolaide -- I believe in the power of .357 Mag and sister .357 Sig.

As do I.

[HiVelSword]

sorry. Double post.

[Oldskoolfan]

I like 9mm. In fact I am dropping all of my .40 S&W guns for 9mm.

[novaDAK]

I believe the bare minimum for reliable self-defense is .38spl/9mm. Anything above these (inclusive) are suitable for self defense. Anything below, I would feel under-gunned.

Now, with that said, I prefer .45acp, because I like to have as much of an advantage as possible. I do keep another 9mm (or .38spl, depending) at home ready to go since a few others in my family aren't as proficient with .45 as I am.

As for .45 JHPs not penetrating to the 12" min., there are MANY that do, so just pick the ones that do and stick with them. DUH!!! ;)

[Bullman]

Let's consider this adage:

"Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

This of course means that any handgun caliber which isn't at least a .40 caliber is pretty much not up to snuff for self defense.

So, in your opinion, is this true?

I say no. While the .40 calibers and over are generally fine self defense calibers, anyone who says the .357 Magnum and .357 SIG aren't up to snuff for defense is just plain wrong. In fact, I'd take a .357 Magnum revolver over any .40 (and this includes the .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 10mm, and even the mighty .44 Magnum) caliber cartridge, just based on ballistics. The 125 grain .357 JHP has a 95%+ one shot stop record in police shootings.

What do you think?

Anything said after the highlighted portion is just useless banging of the gong. If you are going to "attend" a gunfight, i.e. you know you are going to one, don't for the love of all that is good take a handgun. If you know you have to attend a gun fight, take a long gun, take all your friends who have long guns. The only thing a handgun is good for is if you don't know you are going to attend one of these events. If I happen to be unfortunate enough to be at one of these little parties, I just hope I have a gun period. My handgun will most likely be used to fight my way to my long gun, should one be available in the area. I won't care a whole lot what number the caliber starts with. I have a 9mm, .357 sig, .357 magnum, several 10mm, couple of .40s, couple of 45s and I feel I am well served by any of them.

[DaBigBR]

As others have said - nothing wrong with 9mm either.

[carbofan21]

I believe that with good defensive bullet design the .38 Special, 9mm, .38 Super, .357 SIG, 9x23, .357 mag, .40 S&W, 10mm, .44 Special, .44 mag, .45 ACP, .45 Super etc. are all very capable of saving one's posterior. I don't discriminate!

Sounds like you took that one shot stop figure from Marshall/Sanow. Last I checked the best .40 and .45 ACP loads were right up there too. In fact, the best 9mm's are at 90-91% so what's 6 percentage points?

If you look at the MArshall/Sanow numbers it would point to the 9mm having the edge due to it's softer recoil and higher capacity. But what if you need to punch through a car door or windshield? That's where the .357's and heavier hitters come in. You see, there's always trade-offs.

The bottom line is, carry the revolver/pistol you are most proficient with loaded with a good hollowpoint design and you're good to go.

Me, I like them all. My signature might make you think I prefer 9mm but that's just for the ignorant who say it's a pipsqueak. Sure I've carried plenty of 9's but I've also carried plenty .44 mags too. And when Colt's new Delta Elite comes out (or the Vltor Fortis) I'll be carrying a 10mm again.

:cheers:

great post!

[raxar]

Florida woman survives gunshot between the eyes
Bullet shatters, bounces off skull of 42-year-old victim in road rage assault

Police investigators would theorize that the man fired three shots from a gun that they believe was a .44-caliber handgun. One of the bullets struck Marie directly between the eyes.

It should have killed her. Instead, the bullet shattered into three pieces against her skull. The fragments ran under her skin, exited through her cheek on one side of her head and near her ear on the other.


I pondered this a bit when I first heard the story a few months ago, and honestly it doesn't surprise me that much, considering that factory .44 spl ammo isn't loaded very hot, and there is a decent chance it was fired out of a snubnose revolver something like this happening doesn't seem that far out of the realm of posibility. First off the .44 spl is a slow round, and it's going to loose a bit of velocity out of a short barreled gun, so already the thing is probably only going 600 fps or so, then it hits the windsheild which would slow it down even more, and since it was most likely an un-jacketed bullet it would have begun to flatten out, then it hits her skull and rather than penerating the bone it fragments, and each piece takes the path of least resistance (IE slides on the front of the skull) I've heard a story already of a large game animal (I want to say buffalo) that was shot with a .50 cal muzzle loader, and rather than going straight through the animal the bullet ran along the muscle until it came to the heart