Scope for a new PLR-16?

[deadite]

I have zero experience with scopes. Well, if you don't count shooting my dad's .22 rifle. Even then, I never did anything but look through it.

I've always used iron sights. I don't hunt, so I never got into them, thus my total lack of knowledge on the subject.

Recently, I've bought a Kel-Tec PLR-16 and would like to put a decent, but not overly expensive scope on it. (read:not as much as the gun costs) :)

I keep reading about the fantastic accuracy they have at 100 yards. (sub MOA groups!)

Any suggestions?

deadite

[method]

I suggest a red dot, one that mounts low enough that you can co-witness the iron sights. I've got an older Tasco ProPoint on mine, works well.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7433/dscn0793hl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2148/dscn0797ep6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Myke_Hart]

At $120 the nikon buckmaster and prostaffs have excellent glass in them and are my preferred non military scope.

You can also do great with a $50 Simmons. Most Savage rifes that come with scopes will have a Simmons on them.

Both these scopes can be found at your local walmart.

I have used all three and they are super accurate. Glass is better (Clearer) in the Nikon.

[MrGlock21]

....I keep reading about the fantastic accuracy they have at 100 yards. (sub MOA groups!)...


I put a Weaver 2.5-8 x 28 on my PLR 16. The glass is not bad, eye relieve is tricky. I have popped a coyote in New Mexico with the scope set on 6x magnification, called in to 120 yards.

I like the gun very much but it has a crappy trigger and no match barrel. Sub MOA groups? What groups? 3 shots, 5 shots, random groups, consistant groups, ...

My PLR 16 is not a sub MOA gun.
But it's good enough to send vermin to vermin heaven :supergrin:

A quick comment on accuracy, generally speaking:
A lot is being written about the 'fantastic accuracy' of this gun or that gun.
There is MOA and then there is MOWTh (Minute Of Wishful Thinking) It takes only a minute to announce a tight group by using a word processor.

I read more tight groups on the internet than I eyeball printed on target paper at shooting ranges.

So many folks claim to shoot 'dime size groups all day long'.
The 'all day long' part intrigues me.

Why do I play around with my Sako 6PPC and meet nerdy people who do likewise when so many yahoos shoot 1/2 MOA groups with out of the box rifles 'all day long'?
Reading reviews about items on midwayusa is sometimes like reading results in the Precision Shooting Annual.

In any event, I do like the PLR 16 and I might get another one to be equipped with a Zeiss Z-Reflex :thumbsup:oint

[doktarZues]

I suggest a red dot, one that mounts low enough that you can co-witness the iron sights. I've got an older Tasco ProPoint on mine, works well.

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7433/dscn0793hl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2148/dscn0797ep6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Maybe I'm missing something (seriously) but why are you worried about cowitness with no buis?

I agree on a red dot for a plr16

Also agree with MrGlock21, "sub moa" gets thrown around the net like a midget in a tossing contest but seriously, how often do you see see or get the chance to toss a midget? :)

[M2 Carbine]

Scope for a new PLR-16?
Pretty much any fairly decent pistol scope is good enough.

I first used a 5X Burris that I've had for a long time.
Now I use a fairly inexpensive Thompson Center 2x7.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRscope.jpg

or a BSA Red Dot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRCarbinesling.jpg

The gun is accurate with ammo it likes but I haven't quite shot any sub MOA groups.
The best I do with mine is under two inches to a little over two inches at 100 yards.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLR95ydssierramatch32206.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRtarget52grSierra1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KelTec223target2.jpg

[deadite]

I think it was John Taffin from Guns Magazine. 3 shot group. 7/8's inch, he said. He said he did it with Black Hills 60 something grains.

Could be a fluke, but I'd like to try for myself. :)

deadite

I put a Weaver 2.5-8 x 28 on my PLR 16. The glass is not bad, eye relieve is tricky. I have popped a coyote in New Mexico with the scope set on 6x magnification, called in to 120 yards.

I like the gun very much but it has a crappy trigger and no match barrel. Sub MOA groups? What groups? 3 shots, 5 shots, random groups, consistant groups, ...

My PLR 16 is not a sub MOA gun.
But it's good enough to send vermin to vermin heaven :supergrin:

A quick comment on accuracy, generally speaking:
A lot is being written about the 'fantastic accuracy' of this gun or that gun.
There is MOA and then there is MOWTh (Minute Of Wishful Thinking) It takes only a minute to announce a tight group by using a word processor.

I read more tight groups on the internet than I eyeball printed on target paper at shooting ranges.

So many folks claim to shoot 'dime size groups all day long'.
The 'all day long' part intrigues me.

Why do I play around with my Sako 6PPC and meet nerdy people who do likewise when so many yahoos shoot 1/2 MOA groups with out of the box rifles 'all day long'?
Reading reviews about items on midwayusa is sometimes like reading results in the Precision Shooting Annual.

In any event, I do like the PLR 16 and I might get another one to be equipped with a Zeiss Z-Reflex :thumbsup:oint

[deadite]

Nice shootin' M2!!

Thanks for the advice!

deadite

Pretty much any fairly decent pistol scope is good enough.

I first used a 5X Burris that I've had for a long time.
Now I use a fairly inexpensive Thompson Center 2x7.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRscope.jpg

or a BSA Red Dot.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRCarbinesling.jpg

The gun is accurate with ammo it likes but I haven't quite shot any sub MOA groups.
The best I do with mine is under two inches to a little over two inches at 100 yards.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLR95ydssierramatch32206.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRtarget52grSierra1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KelTec223target2.jpg

[M2 Carbine]

I think it was John Taffin from Guns Magazine. 3 shot group. 7/8's inch, he said. He said he did it with Black Hills 60 something grains.

Could be a fluke, but I'd like to try for myself.

Personally I don't like 3 shot groups. I use a minimum of five shots to see what the gun and I am really doing.
The above 3 shot group was only because I only had three rounds. Would another 3 or 4 rounds have hit inside those three? I doubt it.

Like this target. Overall it's a nice group except for the round I threw low. I knew that one was gone when the gun fired.:embarassed:

I don't know the shot numbers but if those three shots that are touching were 1-2-3, wouldn't that make for a PLR target to brag about.:supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLR95ydsblackhills.jpg

[Forgoten214]

Any of the Aimpoint Micro series red dots would be perfect for it.

[deadite]

Personally I don't like 3 shot groups. I use a minimum of five shots to see what the gun and I am really doing.
The above 3 shot group was only because I only had three rounds. Would another 3 or 4 rounds have hit inside those three? I doubt it.

Like this target. Overall it's a nice group except for the round I threw low. I knew that one was gone when the gun fired.:embarassed:

I don't know the shot numbers but if those three shots that are touching were 1-2-3, wouldn't that make for a PLR target to brag about.:supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLR95ydsblackhills.jpg


I know what you mean.

Just curious, when you're measuring a group, from where on the holes do you measure?

Seems to me that some gun writers measure from the very inside of the holes, closest to the middle of the group. Others seem to measure from the outside of the holes. When a person is shooting large caliber handguns, they could shave off 1/2" from their groups measuring from the inside.

deadite

[Baba Louie]

When measuring group size... center of holes is the correct measuring point... unless cheating helps smooth the shattered ego.

[deadite]

When measuring group size... center of holes is the correct measuring point... unless cheating helps smooth the shattered ego.

Ha!!

deadite

[method]

Maybe I'm missing something (seriously) but why are you worried about cowitness with no buis?

I agree on a red dot for a plr16

Also agree with MrGlock21, "sub moa" gets thrown around the net like a midget in a tossing contest but seriously, how often do you see see or get the chance to toss a midget? :)

What do you mean no back up iron sight? You can't see it well in the second picture, but look at the first...the rear sight has been moved to in front of the red dot. I don't like having a battery powered sight with no immediate back up in case of failure, even if it is mostly a range toy.

[M2 Carbine]

Just curious, when you're measuring a group, from where on the holes do you measure?


I've always measured C to C (center to center) of the two furtherest bullets.
If I "call" a flier I will measure the group without the flier but to be honest (with myself) if I didn't know for sure I blew the shot, I measure the group including the flier.

I've heard of some shooters that measure outside to outside, then subtract one bullet diameter, same thing.

[Cruiser702]

I’ve been using an Eotech on mine. It's accurate, but I think you’ll achieve tighter groups with a red dot or magnified scope. The Eotech was MY idea, but M2 Carbines’ PLR-16 posts caused me to purchase everything else. Consider yourself forewarned; he’s evil and a bad influence. ;)

http://www.fishkind.com/collection/images/keltec_06.jpg

[deadite]

Thanks for all the ideas, guys!

I just bought, online, a Burris Red Dot and a bore sighter. :)

Let the plinking begin!!

Oh yeah, I also got the Keltec factory muzzle brake.

deadite

[Cruiser702]

Burris makes a good red dot, you'll enjoy it. I have a Burris Speed Dot 1X35, 3 MOA on my CX4. If you're purchasing the Speed Dot make sure that you hand snug the battery cap down real good. There were come complaints from owners regarding intermittent operation which were traced back to loose battery caps. Have fun. :)

[deadite]

Burris makes a good red dot, you'll enjoy it. I have a Burris Speed Dot 1X35, 3 MOA on my CX4. If you're purchasing the Speed Dot make sure that you hand snug the battery cap down real good. There were come complaints from owners regarding intermittent operation which were traced back to loose battery caps. Have fun. :)


Thanks for the heads-up!

deadite

[deadite]

Sub MOA groups? What groups? 3 shots, 5 shots, random groups, consistant groups, ...


Ok, I went back to find the article. There were 2 articles, actually.

One in the Sept/Oct 2007 issue of American Handgunner and basically a repeat article, written slightly different, with better pictures in the Aug 2008 issue of Guns Magazine. Both were written by John Taffin, who I have a lot of respect for. He doesn't seem to be a liar.

It was a 7/8th's 5 shot group at 100 yards, using Black Hills 60 Grain soft points, clocked at 2,433 FPS.

Given, he was using a scope that cost more than the PLR-16. It was a Leupold VX 2.5-8X32MM handgun scope that cost $624.99

It's funny, the article says that it wasn't a fluke at all. He went out on two consecutive days and got the same result with that particular Black Hills load. He said that all the other ammo he used (ie. other Black Hills, Federal, Remington, and Winchester) averaged between 2" and 3 1/4" 5 shot groups. He said that the PLR-16 just really liked those Black Hills 60 grain SPT's. He shot 8 different loads in all.

Both articles are consistant with each other, so maybe he's just a really good shot? :) :)

deadite

[10 Ring Tao]

Ok, I went back to find the article. There were 2 articles, actually.

One in the Sept/Oct 2007 issue of American Handgunner and basically a repeat article, written slightly different, with better pictures in the Aug 2008 issue of Guns Magazine. Both were written by John Taffin, who I have a lot of respect for. He doesn't seem to be a liar.

It was a 7/8th's 5 shot group at 100 yards, using Black Hills 60 Grain soft points, clocked at 2,433 FPS.

Given, he was using a scope that cost more than the PLR-16. It was a Leupold VX 2.5-8X32MM handgun scope that cost $624.99

It's funny, the article says that it wasn't a fluke at all. He went out on two consecutive days and got the same result with that particular Black Hills load. He said that all the other ammo he used (ie. other Black Hills, Federal, Remington, and Winchester) averaged between 2" and 3 1/4" 5 shot groups. He said that the PLR-16 just really liked those Black Hills 60 grain SPT's. He shot 8 different loads in all.

Both articles are consistant with each other, so maybe he's just a really good shot? :) :)

deadite

With that scope, from the bench, it's about little else than how well the gun likes a particular ammo.

[M2 Carbine]

Ok, I went back to find the article. There were 2 articles, actually.

One in the Sept/Oct 2007 issue of American Handgunner and basically a repeat article, written slightly different, with better pictures in the Aug 2008 issue of Guns Magazine. Both were written by John Taffin, who I have a lot of respect for. He doesn't seem to be a liar.

It was a 7/8th's 5 shot group at 100 yards, using Black Hills 60 Grain soft points, clocked at 2,433 FPS.

Given, he was using a scope that cost more than the PLR-16. It was a Leupold VX 2.5-8X32MM handgun scope that cost $624.99

It's funny, the article says that it wasn't a fluke at all. He went out on two consecutive days and got the same result with that particular Black Hills load. He said that all the other ammo he used (ie. other Black Hills, Federal, Remington, and Winchester) averaged between 2" and 3 1/4" 5 shot groups. He said that the PLR-16 just really liked those Black Hills 60 grain SPT's. He shot 8 different loads in all.

Both articles are consistant with each other, so maybe he's just a really good shot? :) :)

deadite

Considering that an average shot like me, using a cheap scope, and using the Black Hills ammo that might not be the best in my PLR, shoots under 2 inches at 100 yards, I see no reason why under 1 inch groups are out of the question.

Another factor is not every PLR is going to be a 100 yard tack driver. No doubt some guns are going to be more accurate than others and maybe Mr Taffin lucked out and got a real keeper.

I haven't nailed it down yet but I think one of my PLR's is more accurate than the other.

What he says about the group size with different ammo goes along with what I get to. Some fair and some terrible.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KelTec223target3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/KelTec223target4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRtargetSilverBear.jpg

[M2 Carbine]

Thanks for all the ideas, guys!

I just bought, online, a Burris Red Dot and a bore sighter. :)

Let the plinking begin!!

Oh yeah, I also got the Keltec factory muzzle brake.

deadite

The Red Dot sight isn't bad for 100 yards but I can't get couple inch groups.:supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRBSA100yds.jpg

[M2 Carbine]

Oh, and for just standing and blasting the PLR is fun.:)

100 yards. Standing. Fast fireing using a BSA Red Dot sight and sling.
The Red pasters are a ultra light load I'm working on. I was suprised the bullets didn't hit short of the target.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/100yardsPLR1-1.jpg

[deadite]

The Red Dot sight isn't bad for 100 yards but I can't get couple inch groups.:supergrin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRBSA100yds.jpg

Honestly, that's all I'm looking for. Good accuracy out to 50 yards and COM at 100 yards.

Thanks for the great pics!

deadite