Light & Fast OR Slow & Heavy??

[speicher]

I have seen some pretty good discussion on here regarding 9mm ammo choices etc...

I just got back from my local gun store and most of the guys their are saying that the 147gr round in general has been proven time and time again to not be as effective as the 124's & 127's +P or not etc...in defensive situations, your thoughts?

And on a breif side note, I left with some of the Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+(RA9TA) good round:cool:Question: should I up the spring weight from the factory 17 pounds to 20 pounds...this ammo as all my ammo will be used in a G17. I am under the train of thought that these HOT loads will not put as much wear and tear on the gun with a higher spring weight??

Thanks in advance

[PAGunner]

I have seen some pretty good discussion on here regarding 9mm ammo choices etc...

I just got back from my local gun store and most of the guys their are saying that the 147gr round in general has been proven time and time again to not be as effective as the 124's & 127's +P or not etc...in defensive situations, your thoughts?
And on a breif side note, I left with some of the Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+(RA9TA) good round:cool:Question: should I up the spring weight from the factory 17 pounds to 20 pounds...this ammo as all my ammo will be used in a G17. I am under the train of thought that these HOT loads will not put as much wear and tear on the gun with a higher spring weight??

Thanks in advance

:upeyes, I have HSTs in 124gr. +P, 147gr., and thinking about buying some 147gr. +Ps (just for the heck of it, not that it really gives an advantage). I carry the 147grs, but wouldn't feel underpowered with 124gr. (standard or +P). With modern ammo, I think either grain would be good above 115gr.

[PAGunner]

And on a breif side note, I left with some of the Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+(RA9TA) good round:cool:Question: should I up the spring weight from the factory 17 pounds to 20 pounds...this ammo as all my ammo will be used in a G17. I am under the train of thought that these HOT loads will not put as much wear and tear on the gun with a higher spring weight??

Thanks in advance

No, leave your gun stock. IMO, no need for a +P+ anything, not that I'd throw the ammo out or anything.

[Agent6-3/8]

As long as it makes a big hole and makes it deep I don't care how it gets there. :supergrin:


However, I do tend to lean toward slow and heavy. My G19 is loaded with 147HST and my 1911 with 230g HST.

[hotpig]

My G17 has shot thousands of rounds of the Ranger +P+. Everything is stock and factory original.

As far as advice from that shop. They are not giving correct information so treat anything that say as suspect.

[NotSoFast]

Muzzle velocity, bullet weight, ballistic coefficient, and distance (for final velocity) would all weigh into the equation for which is best. The bullet that applies and transfers the most energy at the target is the one that works best. And with purchased ammo, you are at the mercy of the manufacturer for the muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient. But the shooter who reloads gets to choose and optimize them for best results (all but the distance factor) in his particular firearm.

[speicher]

My G17 has shot thousands of rounds of the Ranger +P+. Everything is stock and factory original.

As far as advice from that shop. They are not giving correct information so treat anything that say as suspect.

Its nice to hear that your Glock has held up shooting alot of that hot round, but on the flip side...will the 20 pound spring truely help ease the excessive battering of the components, as in Receiver, Slide, etc..?

This spring weight thing is another topic I have received mixed reveiws on, now of coarse, if you do use a 20 pounder with those hotter rounds, you better switch back to a 17 pound before shooting standard pressures because I'm sure that you will run in to stove pipes etc...

[usaf207cwf]

The best stuff you can get for the cheapest price.

In many tests almost all quality manufacturers loadings penetrate equally and mushroom to a significant size. Theoretically if 115gr +P+ Hi-Shock (9PBLE I think) and a Gold Dot 147gr penetrate to within an inch of each other, mushroom to within .05 inches of each other, and retain more than 95% of their weight wouldn't you buy the one you could get for less cash? Save the rest for training.

[mickdundie]

To answer your question...how bout
Fast And Heavy!

Thats why I shoot .40 S&W in 180 gr in my pistol:cool:
And 1oz 3"MAG slugs in my Winchester Defender :supergrin:
And if it's still moving, I have a Saiga .223 REM @ 3500 fps that makes real nice holes:wow:

GooDay

Mick:thumbsup:

[NG VI]

Don't worry about swapping recoil assemblies, Glocks in 9x19, especially the original, were designed around the NATO standard or the CIP standard, they were designed around a hotter 9x19 than our standard pressure.

And no, 147 is far from useless. Current 147 is the way to go, though the 124/127 are also good performers. I like the HST in 147 or 124+P, and I have some 147+P on the way to try out. The 124+P feels like it recoils less to me than the 147 HST, I don't know why.

[J.P.]

Its nice to hear that your Glock has held up shooting alot of that hot round, but on the flip side...will the 20 pound spring truely help ease the excessive battering of the components, as in Receiver, Slide, etc..?

This spring weight thing is another topic I have received mixed reveiws on, now of coarse, if you do use a 20 pounder with those hotter rounds, you better switch back to a 17 pound before shooting standard pressures because I'm sure that you will run in to stove pipes etc...

I've used 13# springs in my competition and carry guns for the last 3 years and never had any issues whatsoever.
The lighter spring creates less muzzle flip.

[What? Me worry?]

They'll all kill ya deader'n hell.

[Allman]

Ever notice that people who talk about something that has "been proven time and time again" rarely have any of that "proof" available for reference?

I do know a fair number of people that carry a heavier bullet in the winter than in the summer with the idea that heavy winter clothing is more resistant to penetration by light weight hollow points. Sounds reasonable, but I don't know for certain one way or the other about this.

[tsmo1066]

Years ago, when the 147 grain 9mms first hit the market, there were a number of very legitimate complaints about failures to stop - almost all of them centering around failures to expand when shooting heavily clothed suspects.

Since then, a lot has changed.

Today's premium 147 grain offerings are among the most reliable performers in the 9mm caliber.

That being said, the whole "heavy and slow vs. light and fast" debate has lost a lot of its meaning over the past 15 years. It used to be that lighter JHP bullets meant less penetration and heavier ones meant less reliable expansion, but such is no longer the case. Today's crop of premium handgun rounds in just about any service caliber offer both adequate penetration AND aggressive expansion thanks to the quantum leaps made in bullet design over the past two decades.

[Boris Bush]

Don't worry about swapping recoil assemblies, Glocks in 9x19, especially the original, were designed around the NATO standard or the CIP standard, they were designed around a hotter 9x19 than our standard pressure.

And no, 147 is far from useless. Current 147 is the way to go, though the 124/127 are also good performers. I like the HST in 147 or 124+P, and I have some 147+P on the way to try out. The 124+P feels like it recoils less to me than the 147 HST, I don't know why.


Smartest thing I ever did see said here. USA made ammo is all -P or -P-. Glocks are designed to shoot CIP ammo and they tend to load hot compared to our ammo. CIP loads 9mm to 39,200 psi, that is a standard which is higher than the 38,500 psi NATO and most manufacturers load their +P+ to.

If it is made in the USA then your Glock will eat it up and laugh at our "+P" or "+P+" as we call which is still sub CIP spec.

Even the 23 uses the same spring as the 19 and the 40 is loaded to 40,000 psi with a heavier bullet.

Load shoot and have fun our -P ammo will not hurt your gun, even if the label says +P+. If your Glock could talk it would laugh at that label and marketing gimick.......

[Glolt20-91]

If I were unfortunate enough to carry a 9mm (yes I have a G17), it would be with stoked 147grs running in the high 1100s. :thumbsup:

To me, light and fast is 125grs at 1600fps plus. :cool:

Bob :cowboy:

[Clem Eastwood]

I have seen some pretty good discussion on here regarding 9mm ammo choices etc...

I just got back from my local gun store and most of the guys their are saying that the 147gr round in general has been proven time and time again to not be as effective as the 124's & 127's +P or not etc...in defensive situations, your thoughts?




i would say Dallas TX PD would disagree with them since the RA9T has been their issued load for years. bullet design is more important then chrono numbers.

[Rugby]

Smartest thing I ever did see said here. USA made ammo is all -P or -P-. Glocks are designed to shoot CIP ammo and they tend to load hot compared to our ammo. CIP loads 9mm to 39,200 psi, that is a standard which is higher than the 38,500 psi NATO and most manufacturers load their +P+ to.

If it is made in the USA then your Glock will eat it up and laugh at our "+P" or "+P+" as we call which is still sub CIP spec.

Even the 23 uses the same spring as the 19 and the 40 is loaded to 40,000 psi with a heavier bullet.

Load shoot and have fun our -P ammo will not hurt your gun, even if the label says +P+. If your Glock could talk it would laugh at that label and marketing gimick.......

and the 40 is loaded to 40,000 psi with a heavier bullet.

.40S&W is 35,000psi.
357SIG is 40,000psi.
9mm +P+ is ~42,500psi. (40,000CUP depending on manufacturer)

[English]

I have seen some pretty good discussion on here regarding 9mm ammo choices etc...

I just got back from my local gun store and most of the guys their are saying that the 147gr round in general has been proven time and time again to not be as effective as the 124's & 127's +P or not etc...in defensive situations, your thoughts?

And on a breif side note, I left with some of the Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+(RA9TA) good round:cool:Question: should I up the spring weight from the factory 17 pounds to 20 pounds...this ammo as all my ammo will be used in a G17. I am under the train of thought that these HOT loads will not put as much wear and tear on the gun with a higher spring weight??

Thanks in advance

Some gun store guys have to be right some of the time about something. In this case I believe that they are. I also believe that the statistics show that they are but I can't give you a reference.

The purpose of defensive ammunition is to stop someone shooting you. As an aside it is worth noting that shooting you and shooting at you are not the same. The best way to achieve this is for your ammunition, as shot by you, to stop them shooting you more quickly than alternative choices. Shooting your opponent in the head will achieve this very quickly but the head is a difficult target and in many circumstances we will need to aim for the torso. If you are lucky, a torso hit will hit the spine and that will achieve the same speedy result. If it does not do that you are reliant on other mechanisms.

The most obvious mechanism by which someone is physically unable to continue fighting is that insufficient blood goes to the brain. You will achieve this if you shoot your opponent in the heart and equally, though not as quickly, if he looses enough blood from his injuries that the heart cannot pump well enough. Since the FBI claim that a determined man can keep functioning at a lethal level for 15 to 30 seconds with his heart shot out we can see that this is not a fast enough means of stopping your opponent shooting you. The length of time it takes for other injuries to cause enough blood loss to stop him varies from the same, with a good hit on the aorta to many minutes or not at all.

Blood loss will kill many people but it will not stop them quickly enough. BUT, if it is all we have to rely on, is a 147gr likely to be as effective or more or less effective that a 124gr+P+?

An artery is much narrower than 9mm and so a 9mm hole to the outside will offer little extra restriction to the flow through the artery. A bigger hole does not matter in this respect. Next, a bullet does not make a hole of its own size at the time. A fast bullet makes a bigger than diameter hole and a slow bullet makes a smaller than diameter hole. The slow bullet pushes tissue ahead of it untill it tears enough to stretch round the bullet and so it returns to a smaller than diameter hole. A fast bullet produces pressure and sheer forces in the tissue in front and to the sides of it that burst cells. Think of them as turned to puree. The faster the bullet the wider the pureed track. A fast bullet makes a bigger than diameter hole. This hole diameter will therefore vary along the track of the bullet as its speed is lost and as it expands or doesn't.

The idea that more penetration gives you more chance of hiting something important is simplistic. A wider track of pureed tissue also gives you more chance of hitting something important. But it takes energy to puree tissue and a higher energy bullet will, by definition, puree more tissue than a lower energy bullet. If significant arteries are not burst or cut in this process the bleed out rate is proportional to the surface area of the non-pureed part of the wound. In effect this is more than the integral of the product of diameter and length because there will be tissue tears outside that region due to the temporary cavity size, which is much bigger with a higher velocity bullet than with a smaller one. This looks as though the 124+P+ should produce a faster rate of bleed than the 147 but we can't afford to wait for that to happen so we keep on shooting.

But if blood loss rate is not going to stop him quickly enough, what have we achieved other than making ourselves feel better because we have done something rather than nothing? Should we really just take our time and make the perfect head shot rather than shooting him four times in the COM in the same time? I don't think so because that gives him time to hit you several times. Even if you shoot him four times in a second that is still only four times the blood loss rate and it still is not enough. So what else do we or might we achieve?

One often given answer to that question is pain. Evidence from people shot in a fight is that there is often very little pain or no pain at all at the time. One person said it was about like being stung by a bee. So pain cannot be relied upon to stop a fight.

Another answer is mindset. If by mindset we mean that the individual has thought about being shot and severely injured and has decided that he will keep fighting as long as there is anything in him to keep fightingwith, then I believe mindset has a part to play. A criminal might have this mindset if he is cornered and facing the death penalty or life in prison if he is caught. The same criminal will have a totally different mindset in the course of a robbery. Robbery is a business with risks and rewards. If the risk becomes unexpectedly great the robber will forgo the reward. He might shoot others without compunction but be prepared to give up the robbery and escape if there is significant risk of being shot. He can always run away and rob another day. He might, of course, be stupid by nature or due to the influence of drugs, withdrawal symptoms or alcohol, and just fight it out to the death. We can't rely on the other guys mindset or the possibility that he will go faint at the sound of loud bangs or the sight of blood.

There are two things left. One is that each hit disturbs his physical and mental balance as distinct from his determination to keep fighting. That is, each shot takes out of action, for a variable time, some volume of muscle, nerves and possibly bone. His other muscles pull against resistance that is no longer there and he jerks himself around - he might fall over if hit in the leg but normally the effect will be a big twitch. This takes him off aim and to get back on aim his mind has to adjust to the loss of the lost bodily function. This takes time and error. While he is trying to do that you can shoot him again and he can't shoot you except by luck. Once you are ahead in this cycle you can keep ahead till you can shoot him in the head. You can't afford the time to take a head shot first or he will get ahead in this cycle of action and consequence. Placement is not king in this. Solid hits with short split times are what will keep you from getting shot. Because the 124gr +P+ has more energy and will destroy or disable more tissue as a result, it will be more effective in this scenario than the 147gr.

Finally we have the ballistic pressure wave effect. As with everything, you can choose to believe this or not. If you don't know about it then you can start with the current and very long thread started by Dr. Courtney in Caliber Corner. It is full of rational and irrational argument, name calling and abuse. If it is a real effect then the 147gr 9mm does not get to the threshold and the 124gr +P+ is well inside it so with those four COM shots you have a reasonable chance of putting your opponent out of action.

Overall I think this makes it a win, win, win for the 124gr 9mm +P+.

All of this is only my opinion and there are many more ways to be wrong than to be right.

English

[Boris Bush]

.40S&W is 35,000psi.
357SIG is 40,000psi.
9mm +P+ is ~42,500psi. (40,000CUP depending on manufacturer)

My bad, I was thinking 357 sig and 40 sw at the same time...

I was thumbing through an old viht manual and they load 40 S&W to 36,200 psi for CIP loads. hmm.

[Rekced]

I have seen some pretty good discussion on here regarding 9mm ammo choices etc...

I just got back from my local gun store and most of the guys their are saying that the 147gr round in general has been proven time and time again to not be as effective as the 124's & 127's +P or not etc...in defensive situations, your thoughts?

And on a breif side note, I left with some of the Winchester Ranger 127gr +p+(RA9TA) good round:cool:Question: should I up the spring weight from the factory 17 pounds to 20 pounds...this ammo as all my ammo will be used in a G17. I am under the train of thought that these HOT loads will not put as much wear and tear on the gun with a higher spring weight??

Thanks in advance


The guy sold you some excellent ammo. These days people are going insane over Federal HST etc but who cares? The Winchester Ranger and Speer Gold Dots are still my favorites. I'd say the ammo you bought is at least in the top 5% of all ammo made for self defense.

Leave your sun stock. Don't just throw that ammo downrange either.

[Short Cut]

To answer your question...how bout
Fast And Heavy!

Yep that's for me. 200 grain 10MM at 1250 fps.

[gary newport]

Some gun store guys have to be right some of the time about something. In this case I believe that they are. I also believe that the statistics show that they are but I can't give you a reference.

The purpose of defensive ammunition is to stop someone shooting you. As an aside it is worth noting that shooting you and shooting at you are not the same. The best way to achieve this is for your ammunition, as shot by you, to stop them shooting you more quickly than alternative choices. Shooting your opponent in the head will achieve this very quickly but the head is a difficult target and in many circumstances we will need to aim for the torso. If you are lucky, a torso hit will hit the spine and that will achieve the same speedy result. If it does not do that you are reliant on other mechanisms.

The most obvious mechanism by which someone is physically unable to continue fighting is that insufficient blood goes to the brain. You will achieve this if you shoot your opponent in the heart and equally, though not as quickly, if he looses enough blood from his injuries that the heart cannot pump well enough. Since the FBI claim that a determined man can keep functioning at a lethal level for 15 to 30 seconds with his heart shot out we can see that this is not a fast enough means of stopping your opponent shooting you. The length of time it takes for other injuries to cause enough blood loss to stop him varies from the same, with a good hit on the aorta to many minutes or not at all.

Blood loss will kill many people but it will not stop them quickly enough. BUT, if it is all we have to rely on, is a 147gr likely to be as effective or more or less effective that a 124gr+P+?

An artery is much narrower than 9mm and so a 9mm hole to the outside will offer little extra restriction to the flow through the artery. A bigger hole does not matter in this respect. Next, a bullet does not make a hole of its own size at the time. A fast bullet makes a bigger than diameter hole and a slow bullet makes a smaller than diameter hole. The slow bullet pushes tissue ahead of it untill it tears enough to stretch round the bullet and so it returns to a smaller than diameter hole. A fast bullet produces pressure and sheer forces in the tissue in front and to the sides of it that burst cells. Think of them as turned to puree. The faster the bullet the wider the pureed track. A fast bullet makes a bigger than diameter hole. This hole diameter will therefore vary along the track of the bullet as its speed is lost and as it expands or doesn't.

The idea that more penetration gives you more chance of hiting something important is simplistic. A wider track of pureed tissue also gives you more chance of hitting something important. But it takes energy to puree tissue and a higher energy bullet will, by definition, puree more tissue than a lower energy bullet. If significant arteries are not burst or cut in this process the bleed out rate is proportional to the surface area of the non-pureed part of the wound. In effect this is more than the integral of the product of diameter and length because there will be tissue tears outside that region due to the temporary cavity size, which is much bigger with a higher velocity bullet than with a smaller one. This looks as though the 124+P+ should produce a faster rate of bleed than the 147 but we can't afford to wait for that to happen so we keep on shooting.

But if blood loss rate is not going to stop him quickly enough, what have we achieved other than making ourselves feel better because we have done something rather than nothing? Should we really just take our time and make the perfect head shot rather than shooting him four times in the COM in the same time? I don't think so because that gives him time to hit you several times. Even if you shoot him four times in a second that is still only four times the blood loss rate and it still is not enough. So what else do we or might we achieve?

One often given answer to that question is pain. Evidence from people shot in a fight is that there is often very little pain or no pain at all at the time. One person said it was about like being stung by a bee. So pain cannot be relied upon to stop a fight.

Another answer is mindset. If by mindset we mean that the individual has thought about being shot and severely injured and has decided that he will keep fighting as long as there is anything in him to keep fightingwith, then I believe mindset has a part to play. A criminal might have this mindset if he is cornered and facing the death penalty or life in prison if he is caught. The same criminal will have a totally different mindset in the course of a robbery. Robbery is a business with risks and rewards. If the risk becomes unexpectedly great the robber will forgo the reward. He might shoot others without compunction but be prepared to give up the robbery and escape if there is significant risk of being shot. He can always run away and rob another day. He might, of course, be stupid by nature or due to the influence of drugs, withdrawal symptoms or alcohol, and just fight it out to the death. We can't rely on the other guys mindset or the possibility that he will go faint at the sound of loud bangs or the sight of blood.

There are two things left. One is that each hit disturbs his physical and mental balance as distinct from his determination to keep fighting. That is, each shot takes out of action, for a variable time, some volume of muscle, nerves and possibly bone. His other muscles pull against resistance that is no longer there and he jerks himself around - he might fall over if hit in the leg but normally the effect will be a big twitch. This takes him off aim and to get back on aim his mind has to adjust to the loss of the lost bodily function. This takes time and error. While he is trying to do that you can shoot him again and he can't shoot you except by luck. Once you are ahead in this cycle you can keep ahead till you can shoot him in the head. You can't afford the time to take a head shot first or he will get ahead in this cycle of action and consequence. Placement is not king in this. Solid hits with short split times are what will keep you from getting shot. Because the 124gr +P+ has more energy and will destroy or disable more tissue as a result, it will be more effective in this scenario than the 147gr.

Finally we have the ballistic pressure wave effect. As with everything, you can choose to believe this or not. If you don't know about it then you can start with the current and very long thread started by Dr. Courtney in Caliber Corner. It is full of rational and irrational argument, name calling and abuse. If it is a real effect then the 147gr 9mm does not get to the threshold and the 124gr +P+ is well inside it so with those four COM shots you have a reasonable chance of putting your opponent out of action.

Overall I think this makes it a win, win, win for the 124gr 9mm +P+.

All of this is only my opinion and there are many more ways to be wrong than to be right.
English

Your last line is certainly true, English!

I consider the gunshlock talk cited by the OP about 147 grain 9mm HPs to be 15 or so years out of date, bullet design to be of greater importance than a little extra velocity (the +p jazz was supposed to help poorly-designed HPs perform correctly -- today, we have much better bullets), that destruction of vital tissue requires adequate penetration, that waves don't wound and that the ability to place shots correctly, repeatedly and quickly is way more important than trying to push a bullet a little faster,.

While I have grave reservations about the methodology (or lack thereof) employed in the M & S "One-Shot Stop" study, it does cast an interesting light on the perennial "Light & Fast OR Slow & Heavy" controversy -- they both work! The top-performing loads included a light-and-fast 125 grain .357 Magnum load AND a slow-and-heavy 230 grain .45 ACP load.

Interestingly, the top .45 load was the Federal Hydra-Shok, an old design which many consider to be an inferior performer when compared with modern Federal HST and Winchester Ranger loads.

If I load a 9mm for defense, it will be with Federal HST 147 grain standard-pressure loads. Actually, I am far more likely to load a .45 ACP or .45 GAP Glock for self-defense -- and my load-of-choice in either case is HST 230 grain standard-pressure ammunition! :cool:

[vafish]

My thoughts,

In the 9MM 124-127 gr bullets are not light. They are mid weight.

115 grs and less is a light bullet in a 9MM.

That being said, bullet design is more important than bullet weight these days. The engineers that design bullets can get just about any amount of penetration they want by varying the design a bit.

So anyone telling you X weight bullet isn't good is very uninformed whether they are telling you light bullets or heavy bullets don't work, you just can't make that generalization because individual design is more important than that weight. You can find 147 gr bullets that are relatively poor performers and you can find 115 and 124-127 gr bullets that are also less than stellar. The opposite is also true, there are good 115, 124, 127, and 147 gr bullets.

[unit1069]

I guess I'm something of a traditionalist, preferring 124-grain standard pressure modern JHP designs for 9mm. There are a number of good manufacturers so unless you buy junk I don't see how you can run off the rails with ammo selection. That's the original bullet weight 9mm was designed for; not too light and not too heavy.

I do have one mag loaded with 124-grain Golden Saber +P but that's because the stats I've read indicate that GS is a bit slower than other comparable weight rounds. If I'm wrong about that then I'll empty that mag and load it with the standard pressure Golden Saber I also have.

If I need "hot" I go for the .357sig in both 125- and 147-grain Double Tap Gold Dot JHP.

[PAGunner]

If I load a 9mm for defense, it will be with Federal HST 147 grain standard-pressure loads. Actually, I am far more likely to load a .45 ACP or .45 GAP Glock for self-defense -- and my load-of-choice in either case is HST 230 grain standard-pressure ammunition! :cool:

Nice choice, one question though. Is the 230gr. HST your round of choice in the shorter G38 and G39 also? Would you prefer that round in the two pistols I have listed over the 200gr. Gold Dot?

[gary newport]

Nice choice, one question though. Is the 230gr. HST your round of choice in the shorter G38 and G39 also? Would you prefer that round in the two pistols I have listed over the 200gr. Gold Dot?

Yes and yes for the G38. I'd chrono the HST through the G39 and check with Federal to see if the resulting velocity fell in the "window" for proper performance with that bullet. Only if it did not would I look for a different load -- and I'd have to repeat the experiment. In general, heavy bullets seem to lose less velocity with heavier bullets.

[PAGunner]

Yes and yes for the G38. I'd chrono the HST through the G39 and check with Federal to see if the resulting velocity fell in the "window" for proper performance with that bullet. Only if it did not would I look for a different load -- and I'd have to repeat the experiment. In general, heavy bullets seem to lose less velocity with heavier bullets.

Well now Gary, thank you. I will be saving money buying HST (cheaper, since I can easily find the 50 round boxes) where the Gold Dots I can only find in the 20 round boxes!

I already carry HST in my G19 and USPc. 45, same flavors you carry, so it will make my carry ammo nice and uniform.

[gary newport]

Well now Gary, thank you. I will be saving money buying HST (cheaper, since I can easily find the 50 round boxes) where the Gold Dots I can only find in the 20 round boxes!

I already carry HST in my G19 and USPc. 45, same flavors you carry, so it will make my carry ammo nice and uniform.

Streicher's sells the Gold Dots in proper 50-round boxes too, if you want those. NEVER buy ammo in those little 20-round boutique boxes (if you can avoid it).

[PAGunner]

Streicher's sells the Gold Dots in proper 50-round boxes too, if you want those. NEVER buy ammo in those little 20-round boutique boxes (if you can avoid it).

Lasst check Steicher's was out of the 200gr. Gold Dot, I wouldn't touch the 185gr. Gold Dots, since the bare gelatin test was less than 12 inches (call me picky)

http://le.atk.com/pdf/45_GAP_TechBrief.pdf

This testing is what actually a major consideration that turned me onto the GAP, I didn't think the 200gr. Gold Dots got the kind of penetration I was looking for and didn't even know the 230gr. HSTs existed until recently, and no I wouldn't rule out the Ranger T's either.

[gary newport]

Lasst check Steicher's was out of the 200gr. Gold Dot, I wouldn't touch the 185gr. Gold Dots, since the bare gelatin test was less than 12 inches (call me picky)

http://le.atk.com/pdf/45_GAP_TechBrief.pdf

This testing is what actually a major consideration that turned me onto the GAP, I didn't think the 200gr. Gold Dots got the kind of penetration I was looking for and didn't even know the 230gr. HSTs existed until recently, and no I wouldn't rule out the Ranger T's either.

Streicher's is frequently out of stock on HST as well. I think they're kind of popular! :cool: