View Full Version : Win LE SXT Ranger = Black Talon?
I just got a box of winchester SXT Ranger 9mm 147gr "Law Enforcement Ammunition" for $20. Now, I heard that this is the same as the imfamous Black Talon, is that true? Also, my ammo's bullet is black... why is that black? Is there some funtional purpose for the black coating? Lastly, I noticed it had red sealant around the primer, is that corrosive? Or is that not even sealant. I hope someone out there is familiar with this ammo, because I'm having hard time getting a reliable info on this on the net. Thanks!
If it's black, then it sounds like the original Black Talons in a new SXT box? My understanding is the SXT is the improved Black Talon but without the black coating. What's the bullet model number on the box?
I just received an order of the 124gr Ranger-T and the bullets are normal copper color.
Ya, so mine the bullets are black and they are in brass casings and not nickel like the original black talons. The box number is RA9SXT.
BTW, all things being equal, is there a better defense round for 9mm?
The red stuff is primer sealant.
The black stuff is to reduce friction and it is called lubalox.
Your ammo, is not Wincheter's Newest Black talon type round. For 147gr the current release is RA9T and has no lubalox just a regular copper jacket.
You're sure it isn't SXZ? because that stuff is just White Box with the lubalox coating. As far as something better, personal preference but I really like the HST.
You're sure it isn't SXZ? because that stuff is just White Box with the lubalox coating. As far as something better, personal preference but I really like the HST.
My money is on SXZ; that junk from Bass Pro Shop. If it is not, I'd like to know where it was purchased.
Here's a pic of the ammo.
My money is on SXZ; that junk from Bass Pro Shop. If it is not, I'd like to know where it was purchased.
The box says RA9SXT and it's brownish yellow color box. I bought it at the local gunstore, the salesman said it's what the cops use. And then on a winchester website, he showed me some ballistics of it and the expansion of a nice star pattern with 6 sharp corners. I thought it was neat so I picked up a box.
Well that is definitely SXT bullet profile. I am not really that up on winchester ammo, but it is good stuff.
The RA9SXT has been out of production since 1998. Considered a collectors item and sales for 30-40.00 per box on gunbroker.com.
It was replaced by the RA9T IN 1998. 2008 the T-Series is being replaced by a second generation T-Series. The stock number will remain RA9T but SXT was removed from the box and replaced with the word T-Series.
That's pretty neat. The gun store had several dozens of 50 round boxes at $20 each, so I guess I'll go pick up some more tomorrow.
That's pretty neat. The gun store had several dozens of 50 round boxes at $20 each, so I guess I'll go pick up some more tomorrow.
Buy all they have. It is a much better investment than stocks.
I ran across this good explanation about the different Black Talon/Ranger-T models. Scroll down a bit.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm
Carolina Drifter
07-02-2008, 19:53
500 rds +P+ $189
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=500rds-9mm-winchester-ranger-115gr-p-hp-ammo&cName=9mm-hollow-point-ammo
That's pretty neat. The gun store had several dozens of 50 round boxes at $20 each, so I guess I'll go pick up some more tomorrow.
Would you mind sharing the name and location of the shop? I wonder if they do mail orders :supergrin:
ContractSoldier
07-03-2008, 01:10
I just got a box of winchester SXT Ranger 9mm 147gr "Law Enforcement Ammunition" for $20. Now, I heard that this is the same as the imfamous Black Talon, is that true? Also, my ammo's bullet is black... why is that black? Is there some funtional purpose for the black coating? Lastly, I noticed it had red sealant around the primer, is that corrosive? Or is that not even sealant. I hope someone out there is familiar with this ammo, because I'm having hard time getting a reliable info on this on the net. Thanks!
The rounds you have are the same thing as the Black Talon's, all they changed was the name and the shell case from nickel to brass. The latest generation of Black Talon's, now called Ranger SXT without the lubalox are said to be the same as Black Talons but without the lubalox, some have said Winchester has made improvment's and the new Ranger SXT without lubalox is better.
Anyway, you have the best self defense ammo money can buy.
crazymoose
07-03-2008, 03:20
I'd collect it and maybe sell it for profit, but not shoot it. My guess is that since it has the lubalox, it's not the updated bullet design. The original BT was good in its day, but basically all the major manufacturers' premium rounds beat the old Talons hands down.
Would you mind sharing the name and location of the shop? I wonder if they do mail orders :supergrin:
I just got back from the store with 5 boxes and from what I can tell, they still got plenty more. The store is called Gallenson's and it's located in Salt Lake City, Utah. I don't have their address with me, but their phone number is 801 966 1802. With tax I paid just around $20 per box and each box has 50 rounds so.. pretty good deal I guess?
It is to valuable to shoot. I would put it away and buy better ammo like some Ranger T-Series for carry.
Winchester Black Talon Revisited
There appears to be continuing confusion surrounding the different versions of the Black Talon bullet, its legality for possession by private citizens, as well as its alleged "cop-killer bullet" armor-piercing capability. Here's the lowdown:
Black Talon SXT: The original Black Talon handgun bullet. It was introduced in 1991. The cartridge consists of a black colored bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The black paint-like coating on the bullet is a Winchester proprietary lubricant called Lubalox. The bullet has six serrations on the rim of the hollowpoint cavity (meplat), and six talons. The talons deploy when the bullet expands. They are described by Winchester as: "six uniform, radial jacket petals with perpendicular tips." Winchester voluntarily discontinued sales of Black Talon SXT to the general public in late 1993/early 1994 due to intense negative media and political pressure. Some political activists derisively referred to it as "Black Felon" ammo. Black Talon is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
Ranger SXT: Ranger SXT is a less expensive version of the original Black Talon cartridge intended for the law enforcement market. It consists of a black Lubalox coated bullet seated in a brass case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger SXT is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.
According to Olin-Winchester public relations, the Supreme SXT bullet design has not been factory tested in standard ordnance gelatin because it was not designed to meet police ammunition performance specifications. As a result, there's no valid and verifiable performance data available from Winchester or the FBI.
We find Winchester's attitude troubling because they're marketing a personal defense bullet (a life safety device) in which they confessed to us that they've no idea how well (or poorly) it performs. Therefore, we advise you not to buy and use Supreme SXT until Winchester gets its act together and coughs up performance data for this cartridge.
Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."
There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants.
The negative media frenzy of late 1993 produced untrue assertions that Black Talon was an armor-piercing "cop-killer" bullet. We've fired both 9mm and .40 S&W Black Talon bullets into threat level IIA soft body armor and the armor easily stopped the bullets. The "armor-piercing" myth may have originated from the markings used on certain military small-arms ammunition. U.S. military cartridges with a black painted tip indicates the bullet is armor-piercing.
(Federal Nyclad ammunition is often mistaken as armor-piercing ammunition too, due to the blue-black nylon coating on the lead bullet.)
The black Lubalox coating on the Black Talon bullet is meant to reduce in-bore friction and chamber pressure. Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, the mission of the coating is completed. Lubalox does not give the bullet any special property that allows it to blast through police soft body armor.
Recently, the newer Winchester 9mm 127 grain +P+ Ranger SXT bullet (product number RA9SXTP) has been found to penetrate some lower threat level soft body armor. Second Chance Body Armor Company recalled one of its vests in response to officer safety concerns posed by this particular bullet.
The above is from the posted link but it doesn't mention "T series" yet probably because it's an older article.
These questions get asked so often that I think we really need a Black Talon, SXT, Ranger SXT, T-series sticy at the top of this forum. ;)
The above is from the posted link but it doesn't mention "T series" yet probably because it's an older article.
These questions get asked so often that I think we really need a Black Talon, SXT, Ranger SXT, T-series sticy at the top of this forum. ;)
I think the "Ranger Talon" referenced is the Ranger-T that you are referring to. Just different nomenclature. I just bought some RA9124TP and that section describes my bullets.
It is to valuable to shoot. I would put it away and buy better ammo like some Ranger T-Series for carry.
Well the store doesn't have any Ranger T.. but they do have the 147gr federal tactical, so I guess I'll go pick some of those up.. and maybe another 5 boxes of the Ranger SXT.
The article was written in the early part of this decade. Many used to think the T stood for Talon. Also the big scandal with the 127+P+ and soft body armor hit the news.
There are a few problem with the article but most of it is accurate.
Well the store doesn't have any Ranger T.. but they do have the 147gr federal tactical, so I guess I'll go pick some of those up.. and maybe another 5 boxes of the Ranger SXT.
I believe Federal uses the term "tactical" to encompass a variety of designs.
I like their tactial 'bonded' rounds very much but I don't like the hydra-shocks at all. The hST looks very good but lacks the street data I need to feel comfortable with it as a carry round.
MallNinja4Hire
07-04-2008, 16:42
Here's a pic of the ammo.
Oh noes cop killer bullets:rofl:
JohnnyReb
07-04-2008, 17:14
500 rds +P+ $189
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=500rds-9mm-winchester-ranger-115gr-p-hp-ammo&cName=9mm-hollow-point-ammo
Thats not T-Series ammo, thats a plain jane 115 gr HP +p+.
Thats not T-Series ammo, thats a plain jane 115 gr HP +p+.
He's correct.
Those are not the T-series.
those are similar to the Federal 9PBLE
sigcalcatrant
07-05-2008, 14:24
Lastly, I noticed it had red sealant around the primer, is that corrosive? Thanks!Why would Winchester use a corrosive sealant around the primer?
Glock17JHP
07-05-2008, 23:07
ContractSoldier, hotpig and J.P. are on the money, Aedrick...
You basically have 'Black Talons' there...
The newer loads do better against heavy clothing, but this load will do well for you...
Excellent! I bought 6 boxes already. Tomorrow, I think I'll go get another 5 boxes... or 10. I figure these ammo or other ammo nowdays would do just fine with right shot placements, and if I dont get right shot placements, I imagine whatever 9mm bullets I use would make a little difference, anyway. So, I'm thinking I'll go with the coolest looking bullets, and so far, this is the winner! :wavey:
Glock17JHP
07-07-2008, 11:24
They were effective when they came out originally...
So they would still be today...
They were effective, when they worked would be more accurate.
Glock17JHP
07-07-2008, 13:11
They were effective, when they worked would be more accurate.
Agree...
Didn't they work well, except sometimes against barriers/heavy clothing?
also they tended to be velocity dependant.
Glock17JHP
07-07-2008, 19:20
Did they have a narrower velocity window as relates to good performance?
Did they have a narrower velocity window as relates to good performance?
yes it did.
yes it did.
Oh... well maybe I should go pick up the federal tactical 147gr...
I picked up some more of the talons this morning and shot 50 rounds through my glock 17L. No problem with feeding, pretty accurate, I put 17 shots out of 19 shots in a 4"x6" square target at 25 yards.
I gotta stop going to the gun store though, every time I go I spend a couple of hundred dollars and I've been into guns for almost a year now and spent over $5000... :faint: Right now, the gun store guy is set on selling me the Grand Raptor II, and I'd probably buy it if they actually had the gun. :rofl:
I would not worry much having the old ammo in a full size gun.
Feel free to shoot up a bunch of the RA9SXT. It will help raise the collector value for us that have it hoarded away.:whistling: I will hold on to mine until it gets to 70.00 or more per box.
swallytrip
07-25-2008, 21:18
You have black talons they basically changed the casing and renamed it know what SXT stands for (Same Xact Thing):supergrin:
You have black talons they basically changed the casing and renamed it know what SXT stands for (Same Xact Thing):supergrin:
Not 100% correct but it sounds good when the gun shop commandos say it.
I carry Ranger-T in my duty weapon because I have to. Otherwise I would carry Speer GD 124gr +P. The bullet is bonded, and doesn't fragment like the Winchester SXT does. :supergrin:
The RA9SXT has been out of production since 1998. Considered a collectors item and sales for 30-40.00 per box on gunbroker.com.
Are you saying non "Black Talon" labeled SXT is a collector's item?
I thought only the "BT" stuff was collectable...
The latest generation of Black Talon's, now called Ranger SXT without the lubalox are said to be the same as Black Talons but without the lubalox, some have said Winchester has made improvment's and the new Ranger SXT without lubalox is better.
Incorrect.
They are "T series"
Ranger SXT is very collectable. RA45SXTP will often fetch close to 100.00 per box on gunbroker.
Shalashaska
07-26-2008, 19:04
I have a box of black talons, and they match that description perfectly. The black coating is teflon isn't it?
I have a box of black talons, and they match that description perfectly. The black coating is teflon isn't it?
Yes, and if you don't wash it off your hands quickly, it will permeate your flesh and get into your bloodstream...and bad things will happen. :shocked:
swallytrip
07-28-2008, 20:18
Not sure if it's teflon winchester called it lubalox or something like that, also I'm not a gun shop commando either I actually do volunteer work at our local gunshop and indoor range teaching new shooters about basic gun safety and function. We are in an inner city setting and get alot of first time shooter and purchasers who are new to fire arms all together. No mall ninjas here.:fist:
unit1069
07-28-2008, 21:35
I can understand Winchester playing musical chairs with their ammo, dressing up an old bullet design with new black lipstick. It's the PT Barnum adage all over again deja vu etcetera, etcetera, etc ...
What I don't understand is how many rubes keep falling for it. A very good article appeared (wish I still had it handy to link) that detailed how Federal shot to prominence during the timeframe that Winchester deteriorated. Winchester has cheap available range/practice ammo but lags all the top makers in the premium rounds. I understand they still make some excellent hunting rounds but that's about it.
The HST performed incredibly well in all categories, with consistent and adequate expansion, penetration and weight retention, with very few (if any) core-jacket separations. The Winchester SXT had many core-jacket separations in several categories including with all rounds fired through auto glass. Speer's Gold Dot performance was parallel to the HST's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Cartridge
Anyone that is familiar with the product knows when they see or hear Same Xact Thing. The person saying or posting is just regurgitating gunshop commando talk.
Ranger SXT had several spec changes from the Black Talon. Given a restricted choice between the two I would take the Ranger version.
I do sale both Ranger and Federal Tac ammo. I carry Ranger T over the Federal due to its real world street results. If I do carry Federal I use the Bonded since it is tried and true.
Merkavaboy
07-29-2008, 02:49
I have a box of black talons, and they match that description perfectly. The black coating is teflon isn't it?
No, Lubalox is not teflon.
Anyone that is familiar with the product knows when they see or hear Same Xact Thing. The person saying or posting is just regurgitating gunshop commando talk.
Ranger SXT had several spec changes from the Black Talon. Given a restricted choice between the two I would take the Ranger version.
I do sale both Ranger and Federal Tac ammo. I carry Ranger T over the Federal due to its real world street results. If I do carry Federal I use the Bonded since it is tried and true.
I guess that makes you a rube.
I can understand Winchester playing musical chairs with their ammo, dressing up an old bullet design with new black lipstick. It's the PT Barnum adage all over again deja vu etcetera, etcetera, etc ...
What I don't understand is how many rubes keep falling for it. A very good article appeared (wish I still had it handy to link) that detailed how Federal shot to prominence during the timeframe that Winchester deteriorated. Winchester has cheap available range/practice ammo but lags all the top makers in the premium rounds. I understand they still make some excellent hunting rounds but that's about it.
Takes one to know one.
swallytrip
07-29-2008, 17:08
Thanks for the backup rugby I dont even know why I post back to these things someone is always trying to down someone for their opinion saying they are commandos and mall ninjas and whatever else if the people only knew the person they were commenting about. Truth be told I dont even give a $h!t about winchester ammo never have never will, I carry Aguila I.Q's or XTP's any way. Every ammo malfunction I have ever experienced was with winchester.
swallytrip
07-29-2008, 17:14
The whole reason I joined this fourm was because I explored it for a few days and everyone seemed to act decent to one another and had some real good information, but it is looking like every other forum in the world now to me. Where if you dont agree with what someone has to say than you are an idiot. Which is the whole reason I had never joined any in the first place. I don't claim to know everything but have been around shooting sports my entire life and I have some good information to pass along but I guess i'll just be more careful with what I say nowadays and to who.
I was not aiming my gunshop commando slur at you. I was meant for the guy that that you heard it from.
Thanks for the backup rugby I dont even know why I post back to these things someone is always trying to down someone for their opinion saying they are commandos and mall ninjas and whatever else if the people only knew the person they were commenting about. Truth be told I dont even give a $h!t about winchester ammo never have never will, I carry Aguila I.Q's or XTP's any way. Every ammo malfunction I have ever experienced was with winchester.
Welcome to the Internet. GT's CC has a tough crowd, that's why I stick around.
swallytrip
07-29-2008, 18:05
Gotcha I just get frustrated because this always seems to happen and yes I did hear it from some one in the shop I work at and also had read it in an issue of handgunner or one of the others don't remember which one
Gotcha I just get frustrated because this always seems to happen and yes I did hear it from some one in the shop I work at and also had read it in an issue of handgunner or one of the others don't remember which one
The best thing about GT's CC are some of the participants that you won't find on less popular boards. No offense to the one's I don't list, and I'm sure I will add more as I think of them, but to name a few to watch for (off the top of my head), or do a search on:
(In no particular order)
Dr. Roberts
Dr. Fackler
Dr. Courtney
Shawn Dodson
English
fredj338
MTPD
glock20c10mm
uz2bUSMC
Steve Koski
Brass Nazi
freakshow10mm
Glolt 20-91 (a personal favorite)
Utah Glock (Evan Marshall)
cole
AusShane
gary newport
WalterGa (thanks to gary for having him in his sig line)
Rugby:cool:
Maybe someone will add their list. You'll see my name repeated alot.:whistling:
gary newport
07-29-2008, 19:12
The best thing about GT's CC are some of the participants that you won't find on less popular boards. No offense to the one's I don't list, and I'm sure I will add more as I think of them, but to name a few to watch for (off the top of my head), or do a search on:
(In no particular order)
Dr. Roberts
Dr. Fackler
Dr. Courtney
Shawn Dodson
English
fredj338
MTPD
glock20c10mm
uz2bUSMC
Steve Koski
Brass Nazi
freakshow10mm
Glolt 20-91 (a personal favorite)
Utah Glock (Evan Marshall)
cole
AusShane
Rugby:supergrin:
Maybe someone will add their list. You'll see my name repeated alot.:whistling:
I recognize most of the names on your list..but who's Rugby?
:supergrin:
I recognize most of the names on your list..but who's Rugby?
:supergrin:
Rugby's the man!
Sorry, Gary! I'll add you to the list!
Done!
SIGShooter
07-29-2008, 19:32
Oh... well maybe I should go pick up the federal tactical 147gr...
I picked up some more of the talons this morning and shot 50 rounds through my glock 17L. No problem with feeding, pretty accurate, I put 17 shots out of 19 shots in a 4"x6" square target at 25 yards.
I gotta stop going to the gun store though, every time I go I spend a couple of hundred dollars and I've been into guns for almost a year now and spent over $5000... :faint: Right now, the gun store guy is set on selling me the Grand Raptor II, and I'd probably buy it if they actually had the gun. :rofl:
Just so you know, hotpig is trying to help you out. I would buy all of the SXT that you can and put it away. It's only going to be worth more. They don't make it anymore.
I would invest in a Wilson or a Nighthawk before I went with the Grand Raptor. Just my opinion.
Hmm.. already got the Grand Raptor on order. I needed a 1911 to play with until it came though, so I got the STI spartan. Pretty fun gun.
As for the Ranger SXT, the store is now selling them at $19.xx per box of 50. I don't know if I'll buy anymore. There's lots of other self defense rounds to choose from and they all look pretty fun to buy.
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
