Mixing up your ammo

[9 Micky Mouse]

I was at the range, and over heard a guy talking about his carry load. He is shooting .40cal and has for the first round FMJ then a hollow point, another one different brand, glaser safety slug, FMJ, two magsafes, after that I just lost count. I mentoined this to some of the guys at work and one of my co workers said he new a guy who carried FMJ, then Silvertip staggerd. His concept was if a guy is hideing behind a door he will shoot the FMJ for the penatration, then shoot the silvertip into the ground because it will not penatrate the door. Ho well, anyone else stagger thier mags? and why.
When operational our team puts two tracers in the bottom of our mags for rifles and pistols, so when the first one flys you know to get ready to change mags, other than that I do not know.

[mickdundie]

States specifically in my 'Walther PPS' owners manual 'NOT' to mix different types of ammo in a mag!

Who knows...maybe some firearms it's OK to do...but I kinda doubt it!

Mick

[Merkavaboy]

I was at the range, and over heard a guy talking about his carry load. He is shooting .40cal and has for the first round FMJ then a hollow point, another one different brand, glaser safety slug, FMJ, two magsafes, after that I just lost count. I mentoined this to some of the guys at work and one of my co workers said he new a guy who carried FMJ, then Silvertip staggerd. His concept was if a guy is hideing behind a door he will shoot the FMJ for the penatration, then shoot the silvertip into the ground because it will not penatrate the door. Ho well, anyone else stagger thier mags? and why.
When operational our team puts two tracers in the bottom of our mags for rifles and pistols, so when the first one flys you know to get ready to change mags, other than that I do not know.

Only Mall Ninjas mix their magazines with different types of ammo.

First off, it's reckless not to mention a huge legal liability to use FMJ ammo for SD.

Secondly, staggering ammo is just another red-herring for some anti-gun prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney to use against you in court to show how reckless you are.

Lasty, I doubt that anyone would be able to keep track of what rounds are being chambered and fired in the heat of battle.

There's absolutely no need, rhyme nor reason to stagger different types of ammo in one's defensive pistol.

[novaDAK]

I usually carry JHPs in the gun with FMJ spares. Also makes going to the range easier :supergrin:
Another reason to not "mix" ammo, is different recoil and point of impacts. All ammo is different.

[mickdundie]

Quote: Merkavaboy
'First off, it's reckless not to mention a huge legal liability to use FMJ ammo for SD'

Why do you say that? Carrying HP ammo is banned for military use...from what I understand...meaning it's more 'designed for killing' than FMJ

If you are carrying FMJ it would be considered less of a liability!

Am I Wrong?

If you are thinking over penetration, and hitting innocent bystanders...well you better not pull your gun until your ready to face that possibility! It can happen with any type ammo.
Remember that you are responsible for every round.

Mick

[unit1069]

I carried staggered FMJ/JHP ammo every once in a while after thoroughly testing it for reliability when I had a .380ACP because it is such a borderline self-defense caliber. Some people have had problems with shooting different types of ammo from a magazine and many of them don't recommend it.

Don't see any need to do that with a more powerful caliber although I don't question someone deciding to carry one mag of each type.

[unit1069]

Quote: Merkavaboy
'First off, it's reckless not to mention a huge legal liability to use FMJ ammo for SD'

Why do you say that? Carrying HP ammo is banned for military use...from what I understand...meaning it's more 'designed for killing' than FMJ

If you are carrying FMJ it would be considered less of a liability!

Am I Wrong?

If you are thinking over penetration, and hitting innocent bystanders...well you better not pull your gun until your ready to face that possibility! It can happen with any type ammo.
Remember that you are responsible for every round.

Mick

But almost all LEO agencies mandate that officers carry JHP because it lessens the chance of overpenetration.

Besides, a larger wound channel increases the odds of stopping an attack sooner. Stopping an attack is the desired outcome, not killing the attacker.

[Ak.Hiker]

I will load up one or two hollow points like a Gold Dot or XTP up first and then load the rest of the magazine with non expanding bullets when on the trail. I have never had any reliability problems with hollow points up first and FMJ's or hard cast loads following. I sure have never loaded 3 or 4 different loading in one magazine though. My home protection 45 acp it is loaded with Federal 230 HST +P's.

[fredj338]

The concept is weak becasue there is no way you are going to keep track of your rounds in a gunfight & you are not going to "waste" a round into the ground that you may need later, just stupid. If the BG is hiding behind something you can't shoot thru, he can't either, so your tactics need to change at that point, not your ammo.:dunno: FWIW, any time your use a weapon, you are liable. FMJ or JHP, it matters little if your rounds go the wrong place.

[Mountain10mm]

I don't like the idea of mixing brands or types of ammo in a semi-auto defensive handgun, but it's commonly done in shotguns, e.g. slugs and buckshot alternated. In a pump gun, reliability of the action isn't an issue. I guess the same thing could be done in a relvolver.

I personally have three 10mm magazines each with different ammo for that I switch for different situations. FMJ for the woods protection (not hunting), hot 180 grain for home defense (live in the county), and mild JHP for CC (not that a 150fps slower will make that much difference in over penetration, but it might help. I'd never mix the three of them in the same mag. though. I'd rather have too much penetration or not enough penetration and the gun go bang, rather than have the perfect amount of penetration and have it jam.

[NG VI]

When operational our team puts two tracers in the bottom of our mags for rifles and pistols, so when the first one flys you know to get ready to change mags, other than that I do not know.



That is far and away the brightest mag mixing concept I have heard of, way better than mixing up six different bullets into one mag. Is he trying to get rea; world data for every round in existence?

[timzj]

Mix different colored rounds in your magazine because it looks cool!

[ULVER]

Simply stated: The guy is a moron!:upeyes:

[CanyonMan]

Well, every one makes mistakes, and your not a moron, just need to get your head together on what your doing, and get some good instruiction perhaps.

As others have said "The concept is weak becasue there is no way you are going to keep track of your rounds in a gunfight & you are not going to "waste" a round into the ground that you may need later......"

I agree. There is really NO need to stagger the ammo with several brands and types.

I am a minority most of the time in my philosophy, but I carry 230gr FMJ in my G30, because it is a 2 1/2" tube. Holow points, (in all my test), were useless. Sometimes I carry FMJ's in my 45 1911's. If not, I use 230gr Golden Sabers, or Ranger T 230, and am now switching to Corbon DPX, after a very long conversation with them on the phone yesterday, and I am not a corbon fan at all, but am a huge fan of the Barnes bullet in their DPX line up. http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/dpx.htm


Man, find what your gun is "reliable with," and you shoot accurately, secondly. And what will give excellent penetration. Expansion is secondary. But nice if you can get it, but most don't. ;)


I'd suggest you stop the staggering bit, and stick with a deep penetrating round. I don't recall you saying what caliber you are shooting, but without getting into a pile of why's how comes et et, If it is a caliber below 45acp, I'd use a heavy weight JHP that has a good reputation for deep penetration.... (45acp is plenty good with FMJ), smaller calibers are not that good with this, and IMO not wise to use in a FMJ. As i said, you might look at Corbons DPX, these bullets are "excellent" for penetration.

Good luck to ya


CanyonMan

[Alaskapopo]

Well, every one makes mistakes, and your not a moron, just need to get your head together on what your doing, and get some good instruiction perhaps.

As others have said "The concept is weak becasue there is no way you are going to keep track of your rounds in a gunfight & you are not going to "waste" a round into the ground that you may need later......"

I agree. There is really NO need to stagger the ammo with several brands and types.

I am a minority most of the time in my philosophy, but I carry 230gr FMJ in my G30, because it is a 2 1/2" tube. Holow points, (in all my test), were useless. Sometimes I carry FMJ's in my 45 1911's. If not, I use 230gr Golden Sabers, or Ranger T 230, and am now switching to Corbon DPX, after a very long conversation with them on the phone yesterday, and I am not a corbon fan at all, but am a huge fan of the Barnes bullet in their DPX line up. http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/dpx.htm


Man, find what your gun is "reliable with," and you shoot accurately, secondly. And what will give excellent penetration. Expansion is secondary. But nice if you can get it, but most don't. ;)


I'd suggest you stop the staggering bit, and stick with a deep penetrating round. I don't recall you saying what caliber you are shooting, but without getting into a pile of why's how comes et et, If it is a caliber below 45acp, I'd use a heavy weight JHP that has a good reputation for deep penetration.... (45acp is plenty good with FMJ), smaller calibers are not that good with this, and IMO not wise to use in a FMJ. As i said, you might look at Corbons DPX, these bullets are "excellent" for penetration.

Good luck to ya


CanyonMan

Not sure which ammo you tested in your Glock 30 but try the HST it will expand from short barrels and still penetrate the required 12 inches same with the Winchesters Ranger SXT. And ball sucks even in 45. its not significantly better than the 9mm or 40sw with ball ammo despite myths to the contrary.

Pat

[CanyonMan]

Not sure which ammo you tested in your Glock 30 but try the HST it will expand from short barrels and still penetrate the required 12 inches same with the Winchesters Ranger SXT. And ball sucks even in 45. its not significantly better than the 9mm or 40sw with ball ammo despite myths to the contrary.

Pat


Pat,

Thanks man for the suggestion. I must admit, I have not yet tried the HST, and will do so as time allows. But bud, I have tested a truck load of others, and never been satisfied with any of them "out of a short tube like the G30."

I truly find that the 230gr FMJ fit the bill for me out of these small tubes.
Not to contradict you, but the ball is far more significant in my testing, than a 9mm/40sw. Things change when you shoot through hunks of beef or pork, with bones, and drapped with wrangler jeans, or other heavy clothing et.et. Pat those HP's all clog up and act like ball, yet still do not get the penetration that a regular FMJ has. (in most cases that is).

I will give the HST a try, but I am already sceptical of getting good penetration with this bullet.... We will see.

I appreciate the tip. Will let you know what we find out, when we can get to it...

Gotta run.


CanyonMan

[Rusty Phillips]

And ball sucks even in 45. its not significantly better than the 9mm or 40sw with ball ammo despite myths to the contrary.

Pat

I will agree with you that ball ammo sucks no matter what the caliber....

but then I am of the opinion that all pistol rounds suck....

for quite some time I was carrying 7 rounds of HP's in the top of my mags with 8 rounds of FMJ in the bottom of my (15 shot G19) mags.... or for my K9 I carried JHP in the gun (7+1) with the backup mag full of FMJ

however - for about 6 months now Ive been carrying fmj only in my 9mm's

shot placement trumps projectile velocity, weight, or design.

[Jim Watson]

Many years ago, when all I had was a straight USGI 1911 and the only expanding bullets were Norma and Super Vel, neither of which would feed reliably in my gun, I carried a hollowpoint in the chamber and FMJ in the magazine. Special circumstances, special loadout.

[CanyonMan]

Pat,

Thanks man for the suggestion. I must admit, I have not yet tried the HST, and will do so as time allows. But bud, I have tested a truck load of others, and never been satisfied with any of them "out of a short tube like the G30."

I truly find that the 230gr FMJ fit the bill for me out of these small tubes.
Not to contradict you, but the ball is far more significant in my testing, than a 9mm/40sw. Things change when you shoot through hunks of beef or pork, with bones, and drapped with wrangler jeans, or other heavy clothing et.et. Pat those HP's all clog up and act like ball, yet still do not get the penetration that a regular FMJ has. (in most cases that is).

I will give the HST a try, but I am already sceptical of getting good penetration with this bullet.... We will see.

I appreciate the tip. Will let you know what we find out, when we can get to it...

Gotta run.


CanyonMan



Pat,

Have you got a link to some testing, and or real world information on the HST in "short barrel 45' " ?

I am taking a very serious look at Corbons DPX. I "know" this bullet works, (in a reloaded hunting bullet at least). I had a very Long talk with Corbon yesterday i think it was, and was told that the the 185gr offering of the DPX in the short tube 45acp or even the 165gr, was doing it's job so well that over penetration was the main concern for some folks. (not my concern)

Plus he said it was opening up in a violent manner as well as getting the very deep penetration. Sounds good so far. I do know that the DPX barnes, is very nasty from a rifle in a hunting senerio, but we're talking way two different platforms here. Any way, man I just wondered if you had any actual data on the performance of the HST in a short barrel 45acp. I have spent to much time this moring already searching for something soild but cannot find a thing.

Gotta get out in the 100% heat for some work here, so gotta go right quick. Wanted to ask you this while i was at the house here for a minute.

Thanks !


PS.... I did come across this link someone posted on GT on another thread....
http://le.atk.com/pdf/SanAngeloWBW_Report.pdf

The ranch is 56 miles north of San Angelo, so I will have to talk with some of the boys in the department there.

Any additional info you have is welcomed.



CM

[sebecman]

My only experience with alternating loads.....

In my younger days I worked in offshore commercial fishing. A few of the trips I was on took us into dangerous waters were modern day pirates were known to be. We kept several firearms on the boat as a matter of course, and kept our shotguns loaded with 2 slugs first and the rest buckshot. The reason being was if a pirate boat approached within range you were to fire the slugs at their hull near waterline (in attempts to sink or slow them) and then the buckshot at anyone trying to board your boat...

Let's just say we never had to test the theory and I never saw any pirates...

[Merkavaboy]

Quote: Merkavaboy
'First off, it's reckless not to mention a huge legal liability to use FMJ ammo for SD'

Why do you say that? Carrying HP ammo is banned for military use...from what I understand...meaning it's more 'designed for killing' than FMJ

The reason why the military uses FMJ ammo in small arms is because of the Hague Accords which forbids fragmenting or expanding bullets. The object of FMJ bullets is to injure, not kill, enemy combatants. Thus, it takes more manpower and resources to take care of injured troops. Dead troops don't consume those resources. FMJ bullets are designed to cause injuries rather than death.

The Hague Accords does not apply to internal law enforcement agencies, and here in the U.S., does not apply to civilian self-defense use. Only restrictions are for those who live in jurisdictions like NJ that prohibit HP/expanding bullets for SD.

If you are carrying FMJ it would be considered less of a liability!

Am I Wrong?

IIRC, Chicago PD is one of the only agencies that continues to use FMJ ammo. NYPD learned it's lesson the hard way when using 115FMJ in their 9mm's. They had a high percentage of overpenetrations with fellow officers and civilians being injured because of said overpenetratons. That's why NYPD is now using the Speer Gold Dot 124+P load. It has been documented and proven on the streets that more often than not it takes numerous hits from FMJ/solid bullets to stop an attacker than from modern JHP bullets that are designed to expand and stay inside the attacker's body. The least amount of shots fired it takes to stop an attacker, the better and safer it is for all involved, even for the attacker. The less amount of bullet holes in an attacker the better the chances are that he survives. And remember, the object of using a firearm for SD is to STOP the attacker(s), not to KILL 'em. If challenged in court, it is much easier to defend the use of a JHP SD load than it is the FMJ load.

If you are thinking over penetration, and hitting innocent bystanders...well you better not pull your gun until your ready to face that possibility! It can happen with any type ammo.
Remember that you are responsible for every round.

I have been a student of handgun ammunition and the judicious use of deadly force for well over 25 years now; long before I even started carrying a firearm for self-defense. I am well aware of my responsibilities when it comes to said deadly force in defense of myself or a loved one. I understand the ramifications of having one of my bullets that I may have to fire, passing through my attacker and going on to kill or injure an innocent person down range that was unseen by me at the time that the "balloon went up". And that is exactly why I refuse to use FMJ loads and those loads that I deem as being overly deep in penetration. I am not foolish enough to cop the attitude (as some do) that: "As long as it's a 'good shoot', you have nothing to worry about".

If someone wants to take the risk of overpenetrating an attacker while using FMJ ammo (or solid non-expanding bullets or even the infamous 9mm Winchester subsonic 147JHP that has documented overpenetrations that have severely injured and killed people), that's their choice, but it sure damned won't be my choice.

I am comfortable with my choice of ammunition, handgun, skills and knowledge to be able to defend myself on the streets, and if necessary, in the courtroom (with assistance of qualified legal counsel).

I am also comfortable in my knowledge of California laws that pertain to justifiable homicide and the use of lethal force. I know that I am also protected from criminal liability if ever (G-d forbid that I ever see the day) I accidentally kill a innocent person while legally and justifiabily defending myself or a loved one against a felonious criminal/homicidal attacker.

Question is, are you sure about your knowledge, you ability and your state laws when it come to the judicious use of deadly force?

[357glocker]

I mentoined this to some of the guys at work and one of my co workers said he new a guy who carried FMJ, then Silvertip staggerd. His concept was if a guy is hideing behind a door he will shoot the FMJ for the penatration, then shoot the silvertip into the ground because it will not penatrate the door.
That would be a funny firefight to watch. Aim...boom...put pistol towards ground.....Boom....Aim....Boom. Talk about concentrating on the wrong thing. It'll be even better when under stress he puts one in his foot.

[redhawk500]

I usually carry JHPs in the gun with FMJ spares. Also makes going to the range easier :supergrin:
Another reason to not "mix" ammo, is different recoil and point of impacts. All ammo is different.
I load my chamber and primary magazine with Winchester 175 Silvertips and my backup magazine with 200 grain Double Tap WFNCG. If I am in black bear or bigger game country I'd switch the magazines. Also, if I had to put down a horse or some other equal situation, I'd chamber the WFNGC.
One real world situation of mixed rounds and their effect: An Alaskan resident came face to face with a cow moose. He was in a plowed road with high snow on either side and no place to get out of the way. The first shot was a Speer 200 grain Lawman load, the old high velocity rounds I'd expect. The rest of the magazine was filled with standard round nose FMJ .45 ACP. The first head shot just bounced off the old girl's forehead and was later recovered on the front porch of the house he was visiting. He emptied the clip of ball ammo "full auto" into the moose's neck, killing it at his feet.
I am of the opinion you wouldn't be able to count which round was next in the heat of action. I certainly wouldn't waste a round on shooting into the ground or a "warning shot" or some such flawed logic. Even the worst and most ineffective round still in your gun is better than an empty gun!

[sigcalcatrant]

[SIZE="4"]

If you are carrying FMJ it would be considered less of a liability!

Am I Wrong?

.

MickYes, way wrong, except in New Jersey.

[Ak.Hiker]

In the post about the moose it looks like 230 ball had enough penetration to get the job done. Must be a reason why so many old timers carry it. But of course it may be that ball was the only option back in the day. If you read any of Elmer Keith's stories he was telling outdoorsmen many years ago not to carry hollow points in the woods for protection from animals.

[CanyonMan]

In the post about the moose it looks like 230 ball had enough penetration to get the job done. Must be a reason why so many old timers carry it. But of course it may be that ball was the only option back in the day. If you read any of Elmer Keith's stories he was telling outdoorsmen many years ago not to carry hollow points in the woods for protection from animals.


There ya go...... ;)


CM