Effectiveness of .38 wadcutters?

[Andy W]

I have noticed that when you shoot a target with wadcutters it punches a clean hole right through the paper. How effective do you think they might be for defensive purposes? They look like they would do some damage because they make that nice round hole. I know that hollowpoints are much better but I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with a wadcutter bullet either.

[93GT]

Out of a 38 special you would be mirroring police duty pistols from decades ago that used the SWC, which were effective, but today's choices are far better as far as expansion and penetration. A +P JHP would probably be a better choice, but you won't see me volunteering to let you shoot me with the WC either. Of course you won't see me letting you shoot me with an air rifle either, but that doesn't mean it will stop someone my size hopped up on PCP from beating down your door and doing evil things to your family. Accuracy, and reduced recoil, not to mention being chambered in a revolver might make this acceptable for a smaller framed individual with little firearm knowlege or ability to withstand recoil.

[Andy W]

I bet if you could hand load a cartridge up to +p and with a wadcutter (the kind that fit flush with the case) bullet it could do some serious damage to someone. I think it would at least be more effective than a round nose bullet.

Yes I would rather use a jhp.

[tigerdvr]

When I first started in LE (1960 holy crap!!) we used to load hollow base wad cutters inverted. Biggest hollow point you ever want to see. They worked pretty good. I know of one BG who could attest to that fact exept he's dead.
Ammunition science has come a long way and the stuff available now is much better. It still comes down to bullet placement.

[27Glock]

Standard pressure 148gr wadcutters are acceptable according to Tactical Forums Dr. Roberts. They are good for approx 20in of penetration and are great for barriers. Many hollowpoints for 38's only go to around 10 inches in gel. That could be be too little in some cases. You give up some wounding potential without expansion to ensure you put a hole where it counts. Plus standard pressure wadcutters have minimal recoil which can help in shot placement.

[Jim Watson]

The problem with the usual mid-range wadcutter is that while it "cuts a clean hole" and the flat face delivers energy efficiently, it just doesn't have a lot of energy (momentum, TKO, PIR, or whatthehellever computed number you like) to deliver.

Buffalo Bore has a full charge wadcutter that will do everything possible for the type.
It is a 150 grain full wadcutter at 868 fps from a real 2" revolver.
Me? I'd prefer their 158 gr lead hollowpoint at 854 fps.

[Berto]

The problem with the usual mid-range wadcutter is that while it "cuts a clean hole" and the flat face delivers energy efficiently, it just doesn't have a lot of energy (momentum, TKO, PIR, or whatthehellever computed number you like) to deliver.

Buffalo Bore has a full charge wadcutter that will do everything possible for the type.
It is a 150 grain full wadcutter at 868 fps from a real 2" revolver.
Me? I'd prefer their 158 gr lead hollowpoint at 854 fps.

+1

Harder cast lead WC with good velocity is fair alt least.
The idea of using a soft lead WC at typical 600-700fps doesn't appeal much to me.

[fredj338]

+1

Harder cast lead WC with good velocity is fair alt least.
The idea of using a soft lead WC at typical 600-700fps doesn't appeal much to me.
I would recommend them to a recoil shy shooter over a 22lr for SD/HD. Not ideal, but still more effective. In 38sp, I still like the 158grLSWCHP+p. I'm old school though.

[ULVER]

I did some testing with the Buffalo Bore "warm" 150gr. wadcutters. Very old school, but I still like the concept.

I had found that even the touted 158gr. LHP's (FBI load) sometimes failed after heavy-clothing, and a 2-inch barrel. The Remington brand did the best, as it has the softest lead, but I had both the Federal and especially the Winchester sometimes didn't expand. They all do much better from a 4-inch barrel.

The Buffalo Bore wadcutters penetrated 15-16 inches, which is a bit much for me, but so did the LHP's that didn't expand. The full-faced wadcutters from BB hit hard. We did some shots with raw chickens after the clothing, and if the wadcutter hit bone, it brought fragments into the gel.

A friend used some in a lever gun to put some rabbit in the stew pot, and he said it sent them tumbling harder than he has even seen. Just his opinion on that one.

It IS true that with modern designs, there are very likely far better choices than the wadcutters, or the FBI load, in all honesty. I have never tested any of the Speer Gold Dots designed for snubs, but I would think it would be the best choice.

[27Glock]

Here is a site that has numerous gel tests of 38 specials (and many other calibers) with pictures
www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Special.html (http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Special.html)

[Daryl in Az]

I love shooting HBWC's from my snub. I load them over a small dose of Bullseye powder, and they're VERY accurate out of my snub S&W.

They'll work for SD in a handgun, I'm quite sure, but you can't get top velocity from them. Why? Because the bullet is seated so far into the case that there isn't much room for powder. You have to use fast burning powders that require less powder to produce velocity while doing it within SAAMI specs, and these powders generally don't produce top velocities.

Medium or slow burning powders that give top velocities won't work well with HBWC's, simply because they need more powder in the case to work properly, and there's no room.

To better explain:

I have a .32 H&R mag revolver (Ruger). I can stick a few grains of Bullseye powder in a case, and top it with an 85 grain bullet to get around 1000 fps. This load leaves a lot of air space in the case, but any more of this powder would drive the pressure up over SAAMI specs, and could damage the gun

I can also stick 11-12 grains of Lil'gun under that same bullet, and get 1300+ fps, with pretty much no air space in the case under the bullet. But, I can't use this powder with a HBWC bullets because there isn't enough room in the case. If I filled all the air space under a HBWC with this powder, at best I'd get a very mild load. At worst I'd get an under pressure load that could stick a bullet in the barrel, or might even cause damage to the firearm.

All this said...

Top velocities are not always your friend, depending on your needs. If you push any bullet fast enough, it can come apart, and bullets that come apart won't penetrate well. In many cases, lower velocities result in better penetration.

It all depends on what you want to get from your chosen load.

Daryl

[Andy W]

Does any company have a.357 magnum wadcutter round?

[ULVER]

Does any company have a.357 magnum wadcutter round?


I have never seen one... Pressure levels would be high I suspect, and leading horrible. The caliber doesn't lend itself to the wadcutter profile. Maybe reduced to .38 levels and handloaded, but I don't see the purpose, really...

[ggarciatx]

I remembe they were by PMC and had a "Gas Check" dont know what that meant though. Shot up a long time ago

[Butch]

Give or take a hundred years ago, the British switched from a round nosed bullet in their .455 Webley cartridges to a 'cup-nosed' wadcutter type bullet and found it to be very effective.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Ammo%20pics/455Webley.jpg

Unfortunately, they soon decided the bullets probably violated the 1899 Hague Convention and they switched back to the round nosed bullet design. Apparently it was too effective? ;)

.38 wadcutters can be had in a hollow based design, a solid design, and even a jacketed/plated design.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Ammo%20pics/DSC06901.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ButchG17/Ammo%20pics/DSC06902.jpg

The solid bullets are fine for loading to higher velocity, even in a .357 mag, but the hollow based bullets don't tend to do well at high velocity.

I've seen the thinner 'skirt' at the base melt and lead the barrel, and I've also seen where the bullet was apparently blown through the middle by a hot load of Herco powder in a magnum case.....ya couldn't see any rifling in the 4" barrel of the S&W Model 65 due to extreme leading.

Yeah, the owner was real new to reloading. It took a long time and lots of elbow grease to get the lead out of that barrel!

If hollow point bullets aren't an option (New Jersey?), a hot loaded wadcutter bullet would certainly appear to be better than a round nosed bullet, and may well be better then a SWC too.



:patriot:

[grendelbane]

You can load conventional jacketed bullets backwards to get a lightweight boat-tailed wad cutter.

I have never used one on anything living, but the approach does seem promising. It works well on various improvised ballistic test media.

Then again, most people tell me it is a really stupid idea. I don't understand why?

[FM12]

I carry them in my .38 5 shot snubbies...low recoil, accurate. Yah hoo!

[MOHAA Player]

Better then nothing,but if I had a choice I'd take a 9mm and up first.

[novaDAK]

You can load conventional jacketed bullets backwards to get a lightweight boat-tailed wad cutter.

I have never used one on anything living, but the approach does seem promising. It works well on various improvised ballistic test media.

Then again, most people tell me it is a really stupid idea. I don't understand why?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot32_4.htm :supergrin:

[D-GLOCK17]

Out of a 38 special you would be mirroring police duty pistols from decades ago that used the SWC, which were effective, but today's choices are far better as far as expansion and penetration. A +P JHP would probably be a better choice, but you won't see me volunteering to let you shoot me with the WC either. Of course you won't see me letting you shoot me with an air rifle either, but that doesn't mean it will stop someone my size hopped up on PCP from beating down your door and doing evil things to your family. Accuracy, and reduced recoil, not to mention being chambered in a revolver might make this acceptable for a smaller framed individual with little firearm knowlege or ability to withstand recoil.

** You said a mouth full there. I have considered purchasing a .38Special but I am not quite sure yet. I would like to have a light recoiling, (useful for defense) revolver. Actually, I have never owned a revolver yet. **

Right now, I have a Glock 26, but I want to load it with something a little stronger than WWB 147 gr JHP's.

[Glock17JHP]

I have noticed that when you shoot a target with wadcutters it punches a clean hole right through the paper. How effective do you think they might be for defensive purposes? They look like they would do some damage because they make that nice round hole. I know that hollowpoints are much better but I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with a wadcutter bullet either.

The 148 grain 'full-wadcutter' or 'target-wadcutter' is a very accurate and very mild shooting/mild recoiling load. Women love them, so do kids. Recoil shy folks like them. Folks who want to be accurate like them.

And... they are wonderful in a snubbie!!! The Gold Dot 135 grain +P HP is specifically designed for snubbies, but the 148 grain 'target-wadcutter' is way more easy to shoot well with. Follow-up shots are a breeze with the old 'target-wadcutters'... Penetration on a BG will be at least 16 inches, and it performs well even against heavy clothing!!!

Sure the 'target-wadcutter' is an old load... but it is a GOOD one, too!!! Good for any .38 Special, snubbie right up to a 6" barrel.

Got a snubbie? This is a good load to use.
Got a 2 1/2", 3" or 4" revolver? This is a good load to use.
Got a wifey who is a bit recoil shy (most are if you get them to really be honest!!!)? Let her try this load.

Are you a big, brawny male? This is still a good load...