Fist Sized Holes?

[glock20c10mm]

I've noticed quite a few times now where people speak of fist sized holes being produced by the common sidearm rounds, particularily on bullet exit. Yet, there are also those that preach to us that handgun rounds can do no damage outside the direct path of the bullet.

So, do SOME common SD rounds produce this "phenomenon" or not? Or have some people just not seen what SOME common SPECIFIC SD loads are capable of? I've heard plenty often to this point that some 357SIG loads phisically wound to a much greater extent throughout the whole wound track than many of the more common 9, 40, and 45 SD rounds. Any thoughts?

[J.P.]

I've noticed quite a few times now where people speak of fist sized holes being produced by the common sidearm rounds, particularily on bullet exit. Yet, there are also those that preach to us that handgun rounds can do no damage outside the direct path of the bullet.

So, do SOME common SD rounds produce this "phenomenon" or not? Or have some people just not seen what SOME common SPECIFIC SD loads are capable of? I've heard plenty often to this point that some 357SIG loads phisically wound to a much greater extent throughout the whole wound track than many of the more common 9, 40, and 45 SD rounds. Any thoughts?

Yes.
I've stated on this board many times that I've compared many various rounds in flesh and bone and the higher energy offerings have produced larger wounds. Deer and coyotes.... a lot of coyotes.
I don't think some people can wrap their heads arouind the sheer amount of Coyotes we've dispatched.
Dad and I were shooting so many Coyotes on the farm that we had at our disposal a medium for which to test handgun rounds that IMO is certainly better than water jugs or wetpack, and argueably better than ballistic gelatin.(depending on the circumstances) And we took full advantage of it because we were very interested in terminal ballistics after reading Marshal and Sanow.
Yet in the face of this, there have been a few detractors, chiefly on this board, that dismiss our findings.

Now, regretfully this was at as time where I had no internet access or digital cameras and I have since moved away from the country so I have no way to back up any of this evidence.....you either believe me or you don't. :dunno:

Obviously you can't always get a perfect repeatable shot, but when you can it's a wonderful thing.
The whole thing started around or actually a bit before the 357SIG was introduced which was at the time a round of particular interest to both of us.
Prior to this, many .38spl and 357mag rounds were used. (as well as other calibers)
"Fist sized" holes were not the rule, but certainly not uncommon.
I've never claimed there was any direct correlation to these findings and human bad guys but only that higher energy rounds produced more trauma.

[fredj338]

THe "fist size holes" is not uncommon w/ small test medium & high vel. impact. The phenom reduces rapidly as target mass goes up. I have shot a truck load of jackrabbits w/ all manner of JHP from a 8-10 diff. calibers. The high vel. impact can actually rip a 2#-4# jackrabbit in half. Drop that same round into a 20# coyote or 120# deer & things change dramaticly.
You see this in water tests too. Shoot a 12oz can, wow, a 1gal jug, impressive, a 55gal bbl.:yawn: To ignore that there is some damage done beyond the direct path of the bullet is just a little ignorant. You can easily see bruising & trauma far beyond the bullet path, how much premanent damage is debatable though. In a gunfight situation, it certainly couldn't be a bad thing to have as much damage done to your target as possible though. I just don't see a downside as long as penetration is maintained.:dunno:

[Boris Bush]

The Only times I get fist sized holes is when I hit bone just before the exit. When I was learning where to shoot a deer in my younger years my dad told me to shoot for the shoulder on the other side of the deer. When that shoulder is hit the bone fragments that exit will make a large exit wound.

You have seen the exit wound made by a 9mm ball round I posted. The small .355 round did not make that hole, the bone fragments from the spine made that hole. I have seen ribs explode upon the exit of a round and make "fist sized" holes the size a 12 gauge slug would have made, even if it hit a rid the same size.

I am not a scientist or anything like that but I killed enough deer with pistols and shotguns with a couple rifle kills in there and seen even more kills with all kinds of weapons that I can draw some kind of conclusion that a hit bone will add substantial wounding area to any projectile, especialy if it is hit on the way in AND out. Just an observation.

[uz2bUSMC]

:supergrin:

[J.P.]

In a gunfight situation, it certainly couldn't be a bad thing to have as much damage done to your target as possible though. I just don't see a downside as long as penetration is maintained.:dunno:
You know, there are doctors who say the same things but they are ridiculed....

[fredj338]

You know, there are doctors who say the same things but they are ridiculed....
No, I think the ridicule comes from trying to attach a specific number to this or that caliber being more or less effective BECAUSE of a theory. There are no magic bullets or calibers in handgun rounds. That I do know.:supergrin:

[vafish]

There are no magic bullets or calibers in handgun rounds.

Yes there are Magic Bullets.

It's just that you don't know if it's the 1st one out of your gun, the 10th one in your magazine, or if it's still sitting in the ammo box back at home.

So no matter what you think your handgun is capable of or what theory is proven by science, you need to keep shooting the BG until you get to the magic bullet that puts him down.

[J.P.]

No, I think the ridicule comes from trying to attach a specific number to this or that caliber being more or less effective BECAUSE of a theory. There are no magic bullets or calibers in handgun rounds. That I do know.:supergrin:

No, that's not what I'm talking about, yet (now) it is, at the same time.
Ironic isn't it?

[Merkavaboy]

I've noticed quite a few times now where people speak of fist sized holes being produced by the common sidearm rounds, particularily on bullet exit. Yet, there are also those that preach to us that handgun rounds can do no damage outside the direct path of the bullet.

So, do SOME common SD rounds produce this "phenomenon" or not? Or have some people just not seen what SOME common SPECIFIC SD loads are capable of? I've heard plenty often to this point that some 357SIG loads phisically wound to a much greater extent throughout the whole wound track than many of the more common 9, 40, and 45 SD rounds. Any thoughts?

I really doubt that any common SD handgun bullet will exit a human body and actually create a "fist sized" hole upon exit. Across my knuckles is roughly 3 inches. There's no way that ANY 9/38/357/40/45 caliber bullet is going to be able to exit a human torso causing a 3-inch diameter exit wound.

[AusShane]

Oh wow youve started a whole thread on a phrase i coined :supergrin:
hey look im not the only one whose seen this! if i had a camera when some of the shots i took happened id show you, as others have said its mostly areas of bodies that contain alot of bone, ive seen it happend in the 9mm and the 357mag and bigger holes from high powered rifles. Speed seems to be the common factor here more than anything

[Mwinter]

I choose to remain dubious.

Of the few (maybe 8-9?) live handgun shots I've seen on human beans, I've never seen an exit hole even the size of a golfball, much less a 'fist'.

Even 2 contact headshots, both coincidentally with 2" .38 snubs, with +p LSWCHP ammo....both exited, but nothing very dramatic as far as the size of the exit hole. A third, with .45acp 185gr WinClean JSP, was worse but still not "movie-sized".

12ga shotguns with buckshot and heavy (.30+) hunting rifles with JSPs, you betcha.

FWIW, none of the handgun shots on game animals (whitetail deer mostly, in the 140-180lb range) had impressive exits. These were with factory .41M, .44M, and .45LC JHPs.

[Boris Bush]

I really doubt that any common SD handgun bullet will exit a human body and actually create a "fist sized" hole upon exit. Across my knuckles is roughly 3 inches. There's no way that ANY 9/38/357/40/45 caliber bullet is going to be able to exit a human torso causing a 3-inch diameter exit wound.


This is not a human torso. This is a whitetail deer that was shot with 9mm NATO ball the round traveled about 12-13" and this is the picture of the exit wound.

I can tell you from experience that a human torso will exhibit holes like this one from seeing it done. Them are not pictures I can take.

Examine the picture and tell me how big you think that exit wound might be. That is my shoulder and the butt of the deer is about 3" off the ground to give you an idea of the size of the deer. It weighed 207 pounds.

Maybe if you had done it and could proove it I would believe you, but there is atleast 1000 words that will be typed about that picture after I post this.


http://media4.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20010222/151606.jpg

[MrMurphy]

Having seen around 20+ shootings of humans, the only one with "fist sized" holes involved were contact-distance shots with a shotgun, either slugs (to the body) or buckshot/birdshot (near complete decapitation in several suicides).

I know one guy hit with a .40 who didn't even know he was hit. Shot the hell out of his car, and he took one in the lower left back, didn't even know it.

[Glolt20-91]

I doubt this would even be a question several decades ago. Not very many .357mag shootings in today's LE world, but if one were to talk with homicide detectives, forensic techs/pathologists it goes something like this, "and then there's the .357mag!"

Going back to the Remington SJHP design carry ammo, exit wounds were typically large, star shaped with a messy amount of interior body mass also exiting.

Coyotes (and most feral dogs) are fairly fragile and don't need much bullet to dispatch.

Bob :cowboy:

[JohnnyReb]

I have seen "fist sized" holes in deer after being shot with 12ga slugs. Its not 100% though.

[Merkavaboy]

This is not a human torso. This is a whitetail deer that was shot with 9mm NATO ball the round traveled about 12-13" and this is the picture of the exit wound.

I can tell you from experience that a human torso will exhibit holes like this one from seeing it done. Them are not pictures I can take.

Examine the picture and tell me how big you think that exit wound might be. That is my shoulder and the butt of the deer is about 3" off the ground to give you an idea of the size of the deer. It weighed 207 pounds.

Maybe if you had done it and could proove it I would believe you, but there is atleast 1000 words that will be typed about that picture after I post this.


http://media4.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20010222/151606.jpg

Without even looking at your photo, I can refer you to a well known picture of man who took in the neighborhood of thirty-three hits from Winchester 100JSP Power Points and two shotgun slugs. All you have to do is find an old copy of Caliber Press' Street Survival book. Every single bullet hole visable on that person were no larger than a dime. The 12ga. slug hole looks closer to a half-dollar size. I truely doubt ANY 9mm NATO 124FMJ bullet will cause anything other than a similar size entry/exit wound fired from any SD handgun unless the bullet struck bone and came out yawing. And even that's quite a reach and definately not something that could never be relied on to be produced each and every time someone is struck with a 9mm FMJ bullet.

BTW, if a 9mm NATO 124FMJ would do such damage to human beings, EVERYONE would be using 9mm's and FMJ loads for self-defense. But we aren't. Why's that? Humm?

[Boris Bush]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Boris Bush http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10821607#post10821607)
This is not a human torso. This is a whitetail deer that was shot with 9mm NATO ball the round traveled about 12-13" and this is the picture of the exit wound.

I can tell you from experience that a human torso will exhibit holes like this one from seeing it done. Them are not pictures I can take.

Examine the picture and tell me how big you think that exit wound might be. That is my shoulder and the butt of the deer is about 3" off the ground to give you an idea of the size of the deer. It weighed 207 pounds.

Maybe if you had done it and could proove it I would believe you, but there is atleast 1000 words that will be typed about that picture after I post this.


http://media4.dropshots.com/photos/1...222/151606.jpg (http://media4.dropshots.com/photos/104896/20010222/151606.jpg)
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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Without even looking at your photo, I can refer you to a well known picture of man who took in the neighborhood of thirty-three hits from Winchester 100JSP Power Points and two shotgun slugs. All you have to do is find an old copy of Caliber Press' Street Survival book. Every single bullet hole visable on that person were no larger than a dime. The 12ga. slug hole looks closer to a half-dollar size. I truely doubt ANY 9mm NATO 124FMJ bullet will cause anything other than a similar size entry/exit wound fired from any SD handgun unless the bullet struck bone and came out yawing. And even that's quite a reach and definately not something that could never be relied on to be produced each and every time someone is struck with a 9mm FMJ bullet.

BTW, if a 9mm NATO 124FMJ would do such damage to human beings, EVERYONE would be using 9mm's and FMJ loads for self-defense. But we aren't. Why's that? Humm?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________


Still waiting for an answer. How big is that hole? You claimed (based on opinion, not fact) that a 9mm sized projectile can not make fist sized holes in animals. Even my 4 year old can deduct from that picture that the exit wound is pretty big (as he put it).

When making claims based on opinion, one better be ready for fact to rear its face somewhere sometime. This is your somewhere sometime.

You made a claim, I showed you otherwise and asked a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable answer.

:yawn:

[Merkavaboy]

Still waiting for an answer. How big is that hole? You claimed (based on opinion, not fact) that a 9mm sized projectile can not make fist sized holes in animals. Even my 4 year old can deduct from that picture that the exit wound is pretty big (as he put it).

When making claims based on opinion, one better be ready for fact to rear its face somewhere sometime. This is your somewhere sometime.

You made a claim, I showed you otherwise and asked a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable answer.

:yawn:

And what makes you think that I or anyone else is going to believe your claim that such an exit wound was caused by a 9mm FMJ? Because you say so? Yeah, right. Maybe we should actually be asking those who have seen GSW's on human beings and see if your photo jives with what they've seen out on the streets with humans involved and not game animals who may or may not have been shot with a 9mm FMJ (as you claim).

If a 9mm 124FMJ consistantly causes exit wounds like that which you claim to have occurred, then the 9mm 124FMJ (or ANY FMJ/solid type bullet) would be having tremendous "one shot stops" (to coin a phrase), out on the streets, and that JUST AIN'T HAPPENING!

[AusShane]

Ok now i must say this again - i only said id seen that before - namely twice with the 9mm +P handload and a few times with the 357mag - wasnt something i saw on every single animal ive shot. And once again i must say areas that contain alot of bone i saw this happen - headshot, exiting from a rib cage. Also animals ive opened up after shooting i saw large internal holes - just to set the record straight - not that common, but can happen.

[Boris Bush]

Ok now i must say this again - i only said id seen that before - namely twice with the 9mm +P handload and a few times with the 357mag - wasnt something i saw on every single animal ive shot. And once again i must say areas that contain alot of bone i saw this happen - headshot, exiting from a rib cage. Also animals ive opened up after shooting i saw large internal holes - just to set the record straight - not that common, but can happen.


Same thing I am saying also. Mr. Merkavaboy obviously has maybe a little (maybe none) trigger time while the sights are lined up on large fleshy targets.

I even posted that picture here long before he made his claim and even said it was 9mm ball that did it.

Proof is in the puddin' that pic is proof of what I experienced, not claim or want the truth to be.

You made the claim 9mm can not make a "fist" sized hole. I showed you a picture of such an instance. You say no way 9mm did that. If so and you are such an expert. What exactly did it then? Something made that hole. My P226 was the only weapon I had. Stray bullet from an '06 from the next county maybe? sounds like something you would say. Let us have it, your "expert" opinion...........

[Dr. Courtney]

My experience is that handguns can produce larger (2-4") exit wounds in cases where the bullet exits at a relatively shallow penetration depth where there is still a large rate of energy transfer. We've seen this in the lab when shooting pig parts and demonstrated the same thing using ballistic gelatin and simulated skin. At exit depths up to 6", we've seen pretty large exit wounds for pistol loads with high energy transfer. At exit depths beyond 6" the rate of energy transfer is usually too low to produce a wound much in excess of the expanded bullet diameter.

By the time you've got an exit depth the thickness of a human or deer torso (12" or more), I doubt that many handgun bullets are still transferring enough energy at exit to make a big exit wound, though we did see a few cases in a deer with a 44 magnum bullet (Hornady 240 grain XTP). Usually, big exit wounds in torso hits are associated with over 1000 ft-lbs of energy transfer.

Michael Courtney

[AusShane]

My experience is that handguns can produce larger (2-4") exit wounds in cases where the bullet exits at a relatively shallow penetration depth where there is still a large rate of energy transfer. We've seen this in the lab when shooting pig parts and demonstrated the same thing using ballistic gelatin and simulated skin. At exit depths up to 6", we've seen pretty large exit wounds for pistol loads with high energy transfer. At exit depths beyond 6" the rate of energy transfer is usually too low to produce a wound much in excess of the expanded bullet diameter.

By the time you've got an exit depth the thickness of a human or deer torso (12" or more), I doubt that many handgun bullets are still transferring enough energy at exit to make a big exit wound, though we did see a few cases in a deer with a 44 magnum bullet (Hornady 240 grain XTP). Usually, big exit wounds in torso hits are associated with over 1000 ft-lbs of energy transfer.

Michael Courtney
Ok so... in an area containing alot of bone (ribcage) in an animal (smaller than a human, smaller than a large deer) weighing in at about 140lbs (65kgs where im from) standing on 2 legs with an upright torso, vertical spine - could you see a /355cal projectile weighing 124gn (JHP projectile) doing 1300fps at reasonably close range making a decent sized hole? such as the size of a normal human fist? thats basically what i saw. Headshots at similair ranges i saw with similair rounds i saw make same sized holes.

[AusShane]

Same thing I am saying also. Mr. Merkavaboy obviously has maybe a little (maybe none) trigger time while the sights are lined up on large fleshy targets.

I even posted that picture here long before he made his claim and even said it was 9mm ball that did it.

Proof is in the puddin' that pic is proof of what I experienced, not claim or want the truth to be.

You made the claim 9mm can not make a "fist" sized hole. I showed you a picture of such an instance. You say no way 9mm did that. If so and you are such an expert. What exactly did it then? Something made that hole. My P226 was the only weapon I had. Stray bullet from an '06 from the next county maybe? sounds like something you would say. Let us have it, your "expert" opinion...........

Im guessing that round hit the spine to cause a hole like that, but id believe what you say, it is rare (compared to rifle wounds) but it can happen.

[Boris Bush]

Im guessing that round hit the spine to cause a hole like that, but id believe what you say, it is rare (compared to rifle wounds) but it can happen.

It did hit the spine. I also notice wounds are much larger when bone is hit, especialy when hit just before exit.

[AusShane]

Yep but nothing like what a high powered rifle can produce, my dad loads the 270 win using a 110gn Hornady HP upto 3000fps - now that makes a hole! ive genuinly been shocked but the damage a round like that can make, not so good for heavy game (prefers 130gn SP) but light skinned game - nothing like it!

[Dr. Courtney]

Ok so... in an area containing alot of bone (ribcage) in an animal (smaller than a human, smaller than a large deer) weighing in at about 140lbs (65kgs where im from) standing on 2 legs with an upright torso, vertical spine - could you see a /355cal projectile weighing 124gn (JHP projectile) doing 1300fps at reasonably close range making a decent sized hole? such as the size of a normal human fist? thats basically what i saw. Headshots at similair ranges i saw with similair rounds i saw make same sized holes.

As others have pointed out, hitting significant bone shortly before exit can create this effect. It is probably more likely for FMJ than JHP pistol bullets because they penetrate without transferring much energy until they hit bone, so they can reach bone 8-12" deep and still have enough energy to give the bone the shattering effect that produces a large exit wound.

Michael

[Boris Bush]

As others have pointed out, hitting significant bone shortly before exit can create this effect. It is probably more likely for FMJ than JHP pistol bullets because they penetrate without transferring much energy until they hit bone, so they can reach bone 8-12" deep and still have enough energy to give the bone the shattering effect that produces a large exit wound.

Michael

While not as educated on the topic as you are. I drew that same conclusion a long time ago, long before I read some of your studies........

[crash_gsxr750]

you want a hole you can drive a truck through

you need a broadhead on the end of a stick

i have shot deer with 12GA, .22-250, and compound bow

12GA sabot was in/out and deer was down no fist sized hole anywhere
22-250 ballistic tip small hole in (never made it out) but the insides resembled jelly more than anything else (scrabbled lungs anyone)
Broadheads, they just cut a big ole hole in and out (hopefully out, need a drain hole) and some (Rocket Buckblasters 3 blade 2-3/4" cutting dia) leave holes its hard to believe.

but 3" dia holes from .35-45" dia projectiles moving slowly (by comparison to 22-250) na it aint gonna happen unless you hit a big bone

[Senderofan]

I think Doc Courtney's observations seem very real....not to say that the pictures of the large exit wounds on the deer aren't real. I've only had the priviledge to apply my trade on one patient struck 18 times with 9mm FMJ rounds...others were garden variety .38 and .22's. The guy I took care of had several small holes....not massive blow outs. I think hollow points exiting a shallower area with bony structures would equate to large exit wounds...largely due to bony fragments acting as shrapnel.

I've yet to see a massive exit wound from my big game hunting. My deer last fall, a large 10 point buck, through and through the chest cavity with a .308 at 200 yards...168 gr. Barnes TSX. The exit wound was about the size of a half dollar....and it was centered through a rib. Same thing when I've used my .25-06 with 100 gr. TSX's at @ 3300 fps. Easily goes through and through but my exits are quarter sized or less.

I think terminal performance has a lot more to do with how much internal damage is created when the projo passes through the tissues....rather than large exite wounds. As was stated about the ballistic tips...not impressive wounds on the outside....nothing but mush on the inside.

Just my observations

P.S.

Nice Neuro shot on the deer....and with a handgun!!! Awesome!

[AusShane]

As others have pointed out, hitting significant bone shortly before exit can create this effect. It is probably more likely for FMJ than JHP pistol bullets because they penetrate without transferring much energy until they hit bone, so they can reach bone 8-12" deep and still have enough energy to give the bone the shattering effect that produces a large exit wound.

Michael
Ok interesting thanx for the input :)
hope the Nay sayers can now think again

[Boris Bush]

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Dr. Courtney http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10825901#post10825901)
As others have pointed out, hitting significant bone shortly before exit can create this effect. It is probably more likely for FMJ than JHP pistol bullets because they penetrate without transferring much energy until they hit bone, so they can reach bone 8-12" deep and still have enough energy to give the bone the shattering effect that produces a large exit wound.

Michael
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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Ok interesting thanx for the input :)
hope the Nay sayers can now think again<!-- / message -->

Like I have said in other threads about shooting large animals with ball ammo I always aimed for the bone structures of the animal that will put it down for the count. That means shoulders and spines. The angle I was at made the shoulder shot iffy (he was in a ditch that becomes a deer super highway during the season that gives you spectacular ambush kills at elevated short ranges). When I did get level shots and shot the shoulders I would get a wound more like a bullet that exploded after a few inches but kept on traveling and maybe deflecting a little bit. Sometimes the spine would get hit by fragments that would result in spectacular kills, or the far shoulder would be hit breaking both and dropping the deer on the spot.

I killed a 140 pound deer one time with a quartering shot that hit the far shoulder with a 180 grain 357 mag XTP. The exit was more like the size of a softball and the far side shoulder was completly blownup. I found a bone fragment stuck in a tree behind the deer.

Nay sayers will always say nay. I could care less, I will still carry the G19 with the XTPs knowing how the round performs in flesh, not gello with 4 layers of denim.....

<!-- / message -->

[AusShane]

Like I have said in other threads about shooting large animals with ball ammo I always aimed for the bone structures of the animal that will put it down for the count. That means shoulders and spines. The angle I was at made the shoulder shot iffy (he was in a ditch that becomes a deer super highway during the season that gives you spectacular ambush kills at elevated short ranges). When I did get level shots and shot the shoulders I would get a wound more like a bullet that exploded after a few inches but kept on traveling and maybe deflecting a little bit. Sometimes the spine would get hit by fragments that would result in spectacular kills, or the far shoulder would be hit breaking both and dropping the deer on the spot.

I killed a 140 pound deer one time with a quartering shot that hit the far shoulder with a 180 grain 357 mag XTP. The exit was more like the size of a softball and the far side shoulder was completly blownup. I found a bone fragment stuck in a tree behind the deer.


Nay sayers will always say nay. I could care less, I will still carry the G19 with the XTPs knowing how the round performs in flesh, not gello with 4 layers of denim.....

<!-- / message -->
Nice work! yeah didnt have much luck with FMJ's in the 9mm used them on goats with pretty bad results but thats not to say it cant be done - as youve shown. Those XTP's at high velocities work well, but i think pretty much any JHP at that speed works, xtp is well made not to mention cheap and common. Will be taking a trip in the next week hopefully to go after some goats (fingers crossed) will be taking the 17,31 some custom hornadys in 357sig and in 9mm some hot handloads with the XTP plus some 115gn gold dot handloads in the 1350fps range plus ill be taking latex gloves, filleting knife and camera :supergrin:

[Rugby]

Nice work! yeah didnt have much luck with FMJ's in the 9mm used them on goats with pretty bad results but thats not to say it cant be done - as youve shown. Those XTP's at high velocities work well, but i think pretty much any JHP at that speed works, xtp is well made not to mention cheap and common. Will be taking a trip in the next week hopefully to go after some goats (fingers crossed) will be taking the 17,31 some custom hornadys in 357sig and in 9mm some hot handloads with the XTP plus some 115gn gold dot handloads in the 1350fps range plus ill be taking latex gloves, filleting knife and camera :supergrin:

I can't wait for the write-up. Be safe.

[glock2740]

i have a 460S&W that I bet would make a fist sized hole. I shoot 200gr SST's out of it, and will literally disentegrate a gallon milk jug filled with water @ 100yds. I'll know what it does to deer this fall.

[thePirho]

Yes there are Magic Bullets.

It's just that you don't know if it's the 1st one out of your gun, the 10th one in your magazine, or if it's still sitting in the ammo box back at home.

So no matter what you think your handgun is capable of or what theory is proven by science, you need to keep shooting the BG until you get to the magic bullet that puts him down.

Didn't I just read this in another thread?

Anyways. I think that if you can group 5 inches at 15 yards just shoot them in the face. 2 or 3 rounds to their head and I hopefully won't matter if the hole is fist sized or not.

This also means you are shooting to kill, which is the only reason to inflict er replicable damage to another human being no matter what the situation, or the target. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass but shooting some one is not a decision to take lightly and needs to be made ahead of time.

I guess my quandary is as follows, why does the size of the exit wound matter? There are certainly hand guns that can put holes in human flesh that large but the location and trajectory of the bullet will affect its exit if it does exit. A .22 rifle round can bounce around in a skull cavity but not exit and a .45 can take small mammals apart. Is your question more about penetration and continuance after exiting the initial target or rather a question of blood and gore clean up after wards? And if the former, this should go with out saying, you should always anticipate what is behind your target when shooting at it, incase your bullets misses or passes through the target (see the movie "In Bruges: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780536/").

[glock20c10mm]

Cool! So fist sized holes can be a reality some of the time from sidearm rounds, particularily when a bullet strikes bone and still has enough oomph behind it to sent bone out through the exit wound.

Now I'm wondering if 10mm 200gr XTP loads at 1200+fps can make that happen on something like a deer involving a shoulder shot?:headscratch:

[Glolt20-91]

My experience is that handguns can produce larger (2-4") exit wounds in cases where the bullet exits at a relatively shallow penetration depth where there is still a large rate of energy transfer. We've seen this in the lab when shooting pig parts and demonstrated the same thing using ballistic gelatin and simulated skin. At exit depths up to 6", we've seen pretty large exit wounds for pistol loads with high energy transfer. At exit depths beyond 6" the rate of energy transfer is usually too low to produce a wound much in excess of the expanded bullet diameter.

By the time you've got an exit depth the thickness of a human or deer torso (12" or more), I doubt that many handgun bullets are still transferring enough energy at exit to make a big exit wound, though we did see a few cases in a deer with a 44 magnum bullet (Hornady 240 grain XTP). Usually, big exit wounds in torso hits are associated with over 1000 ft-lbs of energy transfer.

Michael Courtney

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Bob :cowboy:

[Rugby]

Cool! So fist sized holes can be a reality some of the time from sidearm rounds, particularily when a bullet strikes bone and still has enough oomph behind it to sent bone out through the exit wound.

Now I'm wondering if 10mm 200gr XTP loads at 1200+fps can make that happen on something like a deer involving a shoulder shot?:headscratch:

I would like to try the 200gr. controlled expansion rounds. Are those the XTP's you are referring to?

[glock20c10mm]

I would like to try the 200gr. controlled expansion rounds. Are those the XTP's you are referring to?
Yes. At one time, they were refered to as XTPs on DT's website. Why there not anymore, I have no idea.

What do you want to try them for: general target shooting, deer or other hunting, backyard testing.....?

But yea, going by DT's numbers, 19.5" penetration in clothed gel, with expasion ending up at over .70", is pretty impressive considering the relatively small platform it's launched from. If you figure the average BG is 9.5" thick through the thoratic cavity, that equates to the bullet making it through two of them and them some!:shocked: