Valley Fair incident [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Otto Skorzeny
07-18-2008, 08:16
Forgive me if there is another thread about this but, does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on the ValleyFair assault on the father that was beaten by a mob of 8 guys?

It seems that even if the victim had his permit to carry, legally he would have been in trouble. It seems that there wasn't anything he could do other than get stomped by 8 guys.

This seems like the perfect time to be armed however, I don't know what good it would have done him.

Devils7
07-18-2008, 08:55
I have heard that the state of Minnesota wants to change the rules of Carry and conceal. For example, If the threat is among everyone around you, you would have the right to pull. Since everyones life is at stake. Instead of avoiding it, you the CCW and gun holder have the duty to act in a responsible way. Cause whos knows if that Bad guy hurts someone else. He is a danger not to you but everyone around.

This is a prime example even if your life is in danger no matter what the case is. Even if the person does or doesnt have a gun, you may lose your life.



I have not taken a a CCW class. But IMO they should change it so that if your life is in danger, like it was for the gentleman. I com'on 8 guys. They would of **** bricks if they saw a gun. Guy is very lucky to be alive. I cant wait to see the pictures of these dirt bags.

Otto Skorzeny
07-19-2008, 06:05
I have heard that the state of Minnesota wants to change the rules of Carry and conceal. For example, If the threat is among everyone around you, you would have the right to pull. Since everyones life is at stake. Instead of avoiding it, you the CCW and gun holder have the duty to act in a responsible way. Cause whos knows if that Bad guy hurts someone else. He is a danger not to you but everyone around.

This is a prime example even if your life is in danger no matter what the case is. Even if the person does or doesnt have a gun, you may lose your life.



I have not taken a a CCW class. But IMO they should change it so that if your life is in danger, like it was for the gentleman. I com'on 8 guys. They would of **** bricks if they saw a gun. Guy is very lucky to be alive. I cant wait to see the pictures of these dirt bags.

Some other boards are saying that if the victim just pulled out his firearm he could be charged with brandishing a firearm or some kind of crime that could ultimately cost him his permit to carry.

Also, with all of those innocent bystanders, would you really attempt to shoot someone?

I am a MN permit to carry holder and sometimes, I think that if I ever had to use my firearm or even draw it on someone, it wouldn't be worth it in the end. Maybe I'm wrong.

jfettig
07-19-2008, 16:29
"Better judged by 12 than carried by six"

Otto Skorzeny
07-19-2008, 18:25
"Better judged by 12 than carried by six"

Except for the fact that it costs tens of thousands of dollars to "WIN" in court.

jfettig
07-20-2008, 06:39
What is the victims condition? How much do you think his medical bills are costing him?


Jon

phorvick
07-20-2008, 18:17
This is one of those horrible events that do not seem to have a perfect solution scenario. But, it should get people thinking about....

1. threat assessment
2. capacity of carry gun and/or utility of spare magazines
3. training to engage multiple attackers while on the move and protecting someone else
4. utility of other self defense options such as hand-to-hand etc
5. being aware of retreat options; being aware of cover/concealment and non-traditional weapons
6. more training
7. and while at it, some more training*

or, perhaps forego Valley Fair.

Clearly the specific scenario is one that has so many variables that it is fraught with the potential for wrong decisions.

*I concede that it may be impossible to train and actually have a solution to this specific problem of multiple attackers in a public place while also protecting your child. But...it "seems" to be a more common occurance and one to factor into your mindset. Maybe the solution you come up with is to run like hell. It is just scary and sad that such events occur. I know what I would like to have done, but...I also hope I never have to find out the reality of what I would do.

EAJuggalo
07-21-2008, 02:48
I would like to think that twelve average citizens from Scott County would find that 8 guys who'd just sexually assaulted your twelve year old daughter constitute a "reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury" which the guy ended up with anyway.

Otto Skorzeny
07-21-2008, 07:06
I would like to think that twelve average citizens from Scott County would find that 8 guys who'd just sexually assaulted your twelve year old daughter constitute a "reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury" which the guy ended up with anyway.

Well, since he didn't use a firearm, we will have to see what happens anyways.

Why aren't the Valley Fair guards armed? I suppose that's another training/budget issue.

RLDS45S
07-23-2008, 01:21
Well, since he didn't use a firearm, we will have to see what happens anyways.

Why aren't the Valley Fair guards armed? I suppose that's another training/budget issue.

Think about it letting rounds fly? in a crowd?

Otto Skorzeny
07-23-2008, 09:03
Think about it, letting rounds fly? in a crowd?

So, you don't think it would have done the victim any good to be armed?

Butch
07-24-2008, 22:26
Why aren't the Valley Fair guards armed? I suppose that's another training/budget issue.
Think about it letting rounds fly? in a crowd?
another training/budget/LIABILITY issue.......

The beating victim should file a law suit against Valley Fair for failing to protect him (and his daughter). Having not been there in the last decade or two, I'm guessing that (like Disney) Valley Fair bans the carrying of guns by the good guys....right?



:patriot:

EAJuggalo
07-24-2008, 23:05
I believe you're correct but have no idea I haven't been to valley fair since long before there was shall issue or even since long before I could legally buy a handgun.

If the victim was armed it's a whole lot different liability wise for the park than if it's a park employee. And knowing some folks that worked there I wouldn't feel safe with most valleyfair employees having loaded weapons.

Otto Skorzeny
07-25-2008, 06:47
another training/budget/LIABILITY issue.......

The beating victim should file a law suit against Valley Fair for failing to protect him (and his daughter). Having not been there in the last decade or two, I'm guessing that (like Disney) Valley Fair bans the carrying of guns by the good guys....right?



:patriot:


Yes. It's probably more of a liability issue than anything. I'm not sure that Valley Fair has any legal obligation to protect individuals. The police don't, why should private amusement park security guards? A lawsuit would be interesing. I too wonder why carry holders would be banned at Valley Fair or anywhere else. Maybe they should ban violent thugs.

RLDS45S
07-25-2008, 08:57
That is the cunundrum, we can beat this to death coulda woulda and shoulda...but of course in the litigious society we live in...letting rounds go have big dollar signs attached to them....what if you whacked 5yr old in a stroller with an errant bullet?

I am sure the keyboard commandos on TCC have devised the "right thing". If it were me....retreat and screaming for help would have been first thought....grab the kid and go.....most of people that carry do not train....and they are not equipped with tools to engage rationally multiple assailants.....think about it....most P2C types carry Keltecs or 5 shot j frames? About that time I would sure as all heck want G19 and a reload.....
I know one training vendor that has offered gunfighting while protecting others......but of course that would require someone actually go learn how to shoot!

Sometimes this is no "right" thing to do!

We now know it is not a "hate crime" not that it makes a darn bit of difference mind you!



So, you don't think it would have done the victim any good to be armed?

PeterJasonMN
08-04-2008, 14:12
609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06 (https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes?id=609.06#stat.609.06), except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.


Sucks MN would never actually honor that there highlighted statement./

Otto Skorzeny
08-04-2008, 17:52
Sucks MN would never actually honor that there highlighted statement./

This state also needs open carry and Castle Doctrine.

EAJuggalo
08-04-2008, 22:16
Otto, I don't understand your last post. We have open carry, at least in most of the state it's harassment free as well.

Otto Skorzeny
08-05-2008, 09:28
Otto, I don't understand your last post. We have open carry, at least in most of the state it's harassment free as well.

I'm well aware that the State of Minnesota legally "allows" for open carry.

However, I dare you to walk down the street in Minneapolis or anywhere really open-carrying and let me know how it works out.

I might open carry if I wasn't worried about the "Man with gun" 911 calls.