Which .40 S&W Federal HST round for carry? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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SVTNate
08-09-2008, 14:22
I just bought my first .40, a new Glock 23. I need to pick up carry ammo for it.

My preference is Federal HST. I can get 165gr. or 180gr. ammo. I know exactly ZERO, NADA, NOTHING about .40 ammo. So, out of the G23, which would you choose for CCW use?

Ok Prdator
08-09-2008, 14:31
YES!!!!





Either.. My likes is the 155 or 165 but Either. I sometimes carry the 135gr as well.

glock20c10mm
08-09-2008, 14:41
From ATK's ballistic workshop results I've worked up the following -
Federal 40S&W HST, 165gr, 1130fps, KE=468, P=14.00, E=.75, 5.3ci, 637psi
Federal 40S&W HST, 180gr, 1010fps, KE=408, P=13.40, E=.77, 5.6ci, 582psi
The two are VERY close in performance! It may be just as well to flip a coin and not look back.

Personally I'ld choose -
DT 40S&W Gold Dot, 155gr, 1275fps, KE=559, P=13.00, E=.76, 5.4ci, 825psi
- before either of the other two. To me, penetration/expansion/wound volume are a wash, but BPW jumps up quite a bit. And DT is just as reasonably priced and comes in boxes of 50 also.

All info based on 4" barrels.

kensteele
08-09-2008, 14:51
when my g23 is in 40cal config, i use p40hst3.

bobdat
08-09-2008, 15:47
delete

FastDraw McGraw
08-09-2008, 17:16
YES!!!!





Either.. My likes is the 155 or 165 but Either. I sometimes carry the 135gr as well.

Exactly what conditions would cause you to switch from 155/165 to a 135gr???

carbofan21
08-09-2008, 18:23
for .40 HST i would go with the 180 grain

hotpig
08-09-2008, 20:23
Exactly what conditions would cause you to switch from 155/165 to a 135gr???

I can not think of any advantage. Although there are somke velocity junkies out there that pick ammo from those numbers instead of performance.

glock20c10mm
08-09-2008, 20:31
I can not think of any advantage. Although there are somke velocity junkies out there that pick ammo from those numbers instead of performance.

"Those numbers" are performance.:supergrin: What does the 135gr load not give you that others do? More penetration? Isn't 12" enough? Guess everyones mileage varies a tad.:whistling:

SDGlock23
08-09-2008, 20:34
Congrats on the Glock 23. I have both 165gr and 180gr HST's, but I tend to favor the 180gr HSTs when the time to choose comes around.

J.P.
08-09-2008, 20:36
I just bought my first .40, a new Glock 23. I need to pick up carry ammo for it.

My preference is Federal HST. I can get 165gr. or 180gr. ammo. I know exactly ZERO, NADA, NOTHING about .40 ammo. So, out of the G23, which would you choose for CCW use?

My choices in .40S&W are:

Hornady XTP (TAP/FPD/CQ) Either 180gr or 155gr
Reminton Golden Saber Bonded 165gr or 180gr
Speer Gold dot 180gr or 165gr (not the LE 165gr version)
Maybe the Ranger T, depending on whether or not the "enhanced" change has been made.

I'm not really big on HST yet for lack of street data, but if I were forced to choose, I'd pick the 180gr version because underpenetration is my main concern with this round.

hotpig
08-09-2008, 20:49
"Those numbers" are performance.:supergrin: :


If that was true in all cases than Lamas,Fang-face/Air-freedom and RCBD would all be the best rounds available.

As far as penetration it is a crap shoot. 12' may or may not work on any given shooting. Most official testing is done in calibrated jello. This will show what a bullet might do in nearly idea circumstances.

glock20c10mm
08-09-2008, 20:59
If that was true in all cases than Lamas,Fang-face/Air-freedom and RCBD would all be the best rounds available.

As far as penetration it is a crap shoot. 12' may or may not work on any given shooting. Most official testing is done in calibrated jello. This will show what a bullet might do in nearly idea circumstances.
You would compare frangible ammo to nonfrangible ammo? I wouldn't, nor do I know of anyone else who would.

Otherwise, a round like the 135gr Nosler in 40S&W or 10mm can be an excellent choice for something like home/apartment defense depending on one's specific risk assessments.

hotpig
08-09-2008, 21:21
You would compare frangible ammo to nonfrangible ammo? I wouldn't, nor do I know of anyone else who would.

Otherwise, a round like the 135gr Nosler in 40S&W or 10mm can be an excellent choice for something like home/apartment defense depending on one's specific risk assessments.


Some hard core velocity junkies only look at those numbers. They could care less what kind or brand of bullets they are.

Many people have little quirks. I would rather have a 9mm with a 115+P+ for home/apartment than the ones you have listed. I would rather carry a 40 cal 180gr than a 45 with less than 230gr. A 9mm rather than a 40 with less than 180gr.

The 10mm is on my list of calibers to pick up when I find a deal on one. I know if I wait long enough I will have a customer trade one in on a more common caliber pistol.

Ok Prdator
08-09-2008, 21:34
"Those numbers" are performance.:supergrin: What does the 135gr load not give you that others do? More penetration? Isn't 12" enough? Guess everyones mileage varies a tad.:whistling:


In those areas that I would worry about to much penatration( hotels for one example. Every one has there ideas on SD ammo:2gun:, I've carried 135gr Corbons and DT for quite some time and have now tested the HST's and like them all...

tsmo1066
08-09-2008, 22:58
ALL of the HST .40s are good. Try a box or two in each weight, pick whichever one your pistol shoots best and call it a day.

glock20c10mm
08-10-2008, 02:44
Some hard core velocity junkies only look at those numbers. They could care less what kind or brand of bullets they are.

Many people have little quirks. I would rather have a 9mm with a 115+P+ for home/apartment than the ones you have listed. I would rather carry a 40 cal 180gr than a 45 with less than 230gr. A 9mm rather than a 40 with less than 180gr.

The 10mm is on my list of calibers to pick up when I find a deal on one. I know if I wait long enough I will have a customer trade one in on a more common caliber pistol.
I see what you're saying.

J.P.
08-10-2008, 04:00
"Those numbers" are performance.:supergrin: What does the 135gr load not give you that others do? More penetration? Isn't 12" enough? Guess everyones mileage varies a tad.:whistling:

Sometimes the 12" in gel may not be enough DEPENDING on the actual bullet constuction.

For example: I'd much rather see a sturdy 135gr 'bonded' bullet in .40S&W than a heavily fragmenting one.

Penetration in gel doesn't take into account more common intermediate barriers like arms, legs & bones...you know, body parts. :)

The same 135gr high velocity round in a fragmenting version may not be able to penetrate enough to hit any vitals if it must first breech an ulna, whereas a bonded version of the same bullet might go just deep enough.

I believe in this theory although I honestly do not have much study related basis to fall back on.....It would be interesting to collect that specific data, or even know how/where to collect it.

glock20c10mm,
You seem to pretty up on your performance numbers so maybe you can help me out here.....
I'd like to see a comprehensive list of .40S&W 135gr performance numbers, specifically penetration numbers through the various accepted media.
Of course links to gel photos would just tickle me pink. :wow:
...and by "comprehensive" I mean more than one bullet type/design.

cole
08-10-2008, 11:43
I just bought my first .40, a new Glock 23. I need to pick up carry ammo for it.

My preference is Federal HST. I can get 165gr. or 180gr. ammo. I know exactly ZERO, NADA, NOTHING about .40 ammo. So, out of the G23, which would you choose for CCW use?


180gr. Data in signature. Also, as a bonus, the 180gr has less felt recoil in my G23.

glock20c10mm
08-10-2008, 15:01
Penetration in gel doesn't take into account more common intermediate barriers like arms, legs & bones...you know, body parts. :)

I can't say for certain:headscratch:, as I'm not an "expert":fred:, but I would argue your statement from the standpoint that the average human body is 9.5" deep, front to back through the thoratic cavity. Therefore I would suggest that 12" would be enough on average to reach any VITAL organ or structure EVEN IF the bullet had to pass through an outstretched arm or whatever first (I don't care if the bullet makes it out the back side of the BG).

I realize some people prefer to plan for extremes and would just as soon be using a bullet rated for closer to 18" penetration in gel so they have the drugged up +400lb biker BGs covered. I'll stick to at least 12" penetration with an actually usefull PBPW at least 50% of the time. I tend to stay out of the way of crazed +400lb biker BGs (plus they can't run faster than me:supergrin:), and if I end up protecting someone else from one I've usually got my spare mag loaded up with DT 10mm 200gr XTPs @ around 1200fps (because of hiking in the mountains where the little black bears and big kitty cats hang), so that will hopefully do it.:shocked:

glock20c10mm
08-10-2008, 15:05
glock20c10mm,
You seem to pretty up on your performance numbers so maybe you can help me out here.....
I'd like to see a comprehensive list of .40S&W 135gr performance numbers, specifically penetration numbers through the various accepted media.
Of course links to gel photos would just tickle me pink. :wow:
...and by "comprehensive" I mean more than one bullet type/design.
I'ld like to see it too! It'ld tickle me pink too! But all I've ever come across are Double Tap's numbers. The only bullet makers producing 135gr 40cal/10mm bullets are: Nosler, Sierra, and Cor-Bon. And out of those, only Cor-Bon loads their own ammo(which is waaaaaaay too expensive!). And then of course DT uses the Nosler bullet.

Sorry I couldn't help you there bro,
Craig:sorry:

TylerDurden
08-10-2008, 15:36
I carry 180 grain HSTs in my USPc. I tend to stick to the weights that cartridges were originally designed for.

9mm - 124 grains
.40 S&W - 180 grains
.45 ACP - 230 grains

Preußen
08-10-2008, 15:59
This one's a no-brainer.
Get a 50rd box of each and see which is more accurate from your -23

Excellent choice of ammo! :cheers:

DRT
08-10-2008, 16:36
180gr HST

LanceOregon
08-12-2008, 19:23
I managed to snatch up 600 rounds of an experimental Federal 135 gr .40 S&W HST load. The Hollowpoint on this round is absolutely HUGE, as you can see in this photo:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/hst1_online.jpg



Here is another photo of this experimental Federal HST load, comparing it to a Winchester Ranger T 165 gr .40 S&W round, which is on the right:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/HST_Ranger40_on.jpg


Again, you can easily see how exceptionally large and deep the hollowpoint is on this round.

I have no idea why Federal never decided to bring this load to market, and only experimented with it.

.

carbofan21
08-12-2008, 20:21
I managed to snatch up 600 rounds of an experimental Federal 135 gr .40 S&W HST load. The Hollowpoint on this round is absolutely HUGE, as you can see in this photo:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/hst1_online.jpg



Here is another photo of this experimental Federal HST load, comparing it to a Winchester Ranger T 165 gr .40 S&W round, which is on the right:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/HST_Ranger40_on.jpg


Again, you can easily see how exceptionally large and deep the hollowpoint is on this round.

I have no idea why Federal never decided to bring this load to market, and only experimented with it.

.


i'm guessing they ditched the 135 grain load because of underpenetration. the HST opens up big and fast, even in a slower moving round like the 180 grain

glock2740
08-13-2008, 11:39
I just bought my first .40, a new Glock 23. I need to pick up carry ammo for it.

My preference is Federal HST. I can get 165gr. or 180gr. ammo. I know exactly ZERO, NADA, NOTHING about .40 ammo. So, out of the G23, which would you choose for CCW use?

Try a box of 50 of each first. Make sure your gun runs them reliably and see which one is more accurate in YOUR gun. The difference between the 2 loads is very minimal in a real life SHTF situation. You want the one that's going to perform the best. You may find out, after shooting them, that your gun likes something else better.

glock2740
08-13-2008, 11:46
I managed to snatch up 600 rounds of an experimental Federal 135 gr .40 S&W HST load. The Hollowpoint on this round is absolutely HUGE, as you can see in this photo:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/hst1_online.jpg



Here is another photo of this experimental Federal HST load, comparing it to a Winchester Ranger T 165 gr .40 S&W round, which is on the right:


http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/HST_Ranger40_on.jpg


Again, you can easily see how exceptionally large and deep the hollowpoint is on this round.

I have no idea why Federal never decided to bring this load to market, and only experimented with it.

.
I too was able to get a couple hundred rounds of that stuff. I love it. It shoots great out of all my .40s too. I can't find ANY info from Federal about the ammo, so I don't know what it's stats are. Almost like they deny making it. Ammotogo.com, said it was made for a certain police force, that ended up backing out of the order, and it was in those plain jane boxes with the Ferderal sticker on it for tax purposes. I too, wish they would release some info on the round and/or just start mass producing it. I think it's a good round and I know I'd stake my life on it, because I have used in it several different .40's for carry SD ammo.

Ok Prdator
08-13-2008, 12:19
I got a few hunderd rounds of it (135gr hst) had it for the wifes p229, now she has a M&P 9 so I guess Ill carry it or trade it for the 165-180 gr HST.

Preußen
08-13-2008, 12:34
Try a box of 50 of each first. Make sure your gun runs them reliably and see which one is more accurate in YOUR gun. The difference between the 2 loads is very minimal in a real life SHTF situation. You want the one that's going to perform the best. You may find out, after shooting them, that your gun likes something else better.
Is there an echo in here?


This one's a no-brainer.
Get a 50rd box of each and see which is more accurate from your -23

Excellent choice of ammo! :cheers:
what a brilliant idea!

NG VI
08-13-2008, 13:35
I have 180 grain in my .40s, except my USP which has the 165. I feel like the 165 has a little bit more juice to it, though I know that is sort of irrelevant in service pistols I feel that the amount of velocity gained over 180 is disproportionate to the amount of bullet mass lost, so my fullsize .40s take 165. I have 180 in my Glock 27, because it didn't beat my hand senseless like the 165s did. The 180s feel like any other .40 load from the 27 to me.

I only have two boxes of 165, while I have a decent amount of 180. Either one is a great choice.

LanceOregon
08-13-2008, 15:18
I too was able to get a couple hundred rounds of that stuff. I love it. It shoots great out of all my .40s too. I can't find ANY info from Federal about the ammo, so I don't know what it's stats are. Almost like they deny making it. Ammotogo.com, said it was made for a certain police force, that ended up backing out of the order, and it was in those plain jane boxes with the Ferderal sticker on it for tax purposes. I too, wish they would release some info on the round and/or just start mass producing it. I think it's a good round and I know I'd stake my life on it, because I have used in it several different .40's for carry SD ammo.

I also got the ammo from ammotogo.com It was too good a price to pass up.

It functions and shoots fine for me as well. The only thing that I can speculate is that with such a lightweight bullet, this HST round may not penetrate that deep. And since HST is primarily marketed to law enforcement, which generally wants real deep penetration, maybe the agency changed its mind about the round.

I don't want to carry a super deep penetrating round myself. So I feel confident in the ammo.

.

NG VI
08-13-2008, 15:33
Anyone have any velocity data for the 135 HST load? I know that the Federal PD 135 Hydra-shocks are only rated on the box at 1170 feet per second, which to me is abysmally slow for such a light bullet.

Is the 135 HST a full power load? Can anyone chrono it?

DRT
12-09-2008, 21:37
I have two boxes of 165gr HST left but it's a weak lot, only doing 1115fps average out of a G35, about 55-60fps slower than other comparable 165gr loads. The 180s seem to be doing better in terminal ballistics testing so I'll probably just stick with 180 HST from now on.

SDGlock23
12-09-2008, 21:53
The Federal XM40HA (135gr HST) 1200 fps, 12.25/.76

NG VI
12-10-2008, 06:01
thanks SD Glock!

revguy216
03-31-2009, 15:30
My choices in .40S&W are:

Hornady XTP (TAP/FPD/CQ) Either 180gr or 155gr
Reminton Golden Saber Bonded 165gr or 180gr
Speer Gold dot 180gr or 165gr (not the LE 165gr version)
Maybe the Ranger T, depending on whether or not the "enhanced" change has been made.

I'm not really big on HST yet for lack of street data, but if I were forced to choose, I'd pick the 180gr version because underpenetration is my main concern with this round.

Why not the LE 165gr version of gold dot? I just picked up a box of 155 grain LE (all they had left) havent shot them yet.

Im also new at this hand gun thing (just got my ccw) and bought a new g23 looking for info on ammo and all that people have told me is to pick a name brand manufacturer and try them. seems like ill be spending lots of money and time (trying to find different brands that are in stock)

Why go with a heavier 180 gr?

Why go with a lighter 135 gr?

Whats the recoil effect of either?

Eagle22
03-31-2009, 15:36
I also got the ammo from ammotogo.com It was too good a price to pass up.

It functions and shoots fine for me as well. The only thing that I can speculate is that with such a lightweight bullet, this HST round may not penetrate that deep. And since HST is primarily marketed to law enforcement, which generally wants real deep penetration, maybe the agency changed its mind about the round.

I don't want to carry a super deep penetrating round myself. So I feel confident in the ammo.

.

Light weight? Box says 180 g HST HP

Velocity ( muzzle) 1010,( 25 yds) 990 (50 yards) 960
Energy ( Muzzle) 410 (25 yrds) 390 (50yrds)370

Eagle22
03-31-2009, 15:38
Why not the LE 165gr version of gold dot? I just picked up a box of 155 grain LE (all they had left) havent shot them yet.

Im also new at this hand gun thing (just got my ccw) and bought a new g23 looking for info on ammo and all that people have told me is to pick a name brand manufacturer and try them. seems like ill be spending lots of money and time (trying to find different brands that are in stock)

Why go with a heavier 180 gr?

Why go with a lighter 135 gr?

Whats the recoil effect of either?

Hatcher's Theory of Relative Stopping Power
http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm

G23c
03-31-2009, 17:16
for .40 HST i would go with the 180 grain

+1. I only use 180.

Natty
04-01-2009, 21:38
Why not the LE 165gr version of gold dot? I just picked up a box of 155 grain LE (all they had left) havent shot them yet.

Im also new at this hand gun thing (just got my ccw) and bought a new g23 looking for info on ammo and all that people have told me is to pick a name brand manufacturer and try them. seems like ill be spending lots of money and time (trying to find different brands that are in stock)

Why go with a heavier 180 gr?

Why go with a lighter 135 gr?

Whats the recoil effect of either?

The 180gr will penetrate better than the lighter rounds. And the 180gr will recoil less than 155gr or 165gr rounds unless they are underpowered rounds made for lower recoil.

The 135gr HST at 1200fps was made to recoil less than full power rounds.

cowboy1964
02-06-2010, 23:08
My choice is 180 grain because that's the bullet weight Glocks are sighted in with at 25 yards, according to the factory.

Shooting lighter or higher velocity loads can cause a slightly lower point of impact at 25 yards.

Do you really think that matters the slightest in the real world??

Anyway, why would the POI of a higher velocity be LOWER? What factor(s) are involved besides bullet drop?

Danzig
02-07-2010, 10:09
I also carry 180gr hst.

gatorboy
02-07-2010, 10:48
Do you really think that matters the slightest in the real world??

Anyway, why would the POI of a higher velocity be LOWER? What factor(s) are involved besides bullet drop?

It would matter if you had to make life saving (and taking) hit's at 70 ft behind a vehicle in a parking lot. I prefer heavier bullets with more penetration for the rare possibility you may have to shoot through a barrier. Expansion is nice but penetration is nicer when confronted by a cracked out, athletic, 270 pound man.

The slower bullet leaves the barrel later when the gun has been recoiling (muzzle rise) longer and barrel is higher than a faster bullet.

beancounter81
02-07-2010, 11:06
180 gr HST for my 22 & 27.

Eagle22
02-07-2010, 15:55
+1. I only use 180.

+2 180 in my G22 and G27.

Tried both 165 and 180. Like the 180s better

cowboy1964
02-07-2010, 19:04
HSTs, Gold Dots, etc, are so much easier to find in .40 than 9mm.

hotpig
02-07-2010, 19:10
HSTs, Gold Dots, etc, are so much easier to find in .40 than 9mm.

40 is not as popular as 9mm or 45. Not being able to get much of those two calibers for a year is killing my business.

G23c
02-07-2010, 20:27
180 grain for my g23 and g27

glocksterr
02-07-2010, 21:04
+2 180 in my G22 and G27.

Tried both 165 and 180. Like the 180s better


let me guess, the 165 was too snappy.


:upeyes:

ABNAK
02-08-2010, 06:09
No love for the 155gr HST? It's a mid-weight loading, kinda like 124gr in 9mm or 200gr in .45ACP.

Eagle22
02-08-2010, 06:12
let me guess, the 165 was too snappy.


:upeyes:

Nope, not at all. Just easier to get 180 then 165. So I shoot the 180 more.

I think they shoot about the same, but since I can easily get the 180.

glocksterr
02-08-2010, 07:42
Nope, not at all. Just easier to get 180 then 165. So I shoot the 180 more.

I think they shoot about the same, but since I can easily get the 180.


ahh good, a man that can think for himself. most say its too much recoil or are dancing on the tongue of the jello gods.

:cool:

Eagle22
02-08-2010, 14:06
ahh good, a man that can think for himself. most say its too much recoil or are dancing on the tongue of the jello gods.

:cool:

Thanks dude.

If I could get a few hundred rounds of 165 HST and 1000+ plus of federal 165 FMJs. Then I shoot that.

But just easier for me to get the 180s in the HSTs and Federal FMJs. So that make MY decision.

I hate freken jello, anyway. ;)

Eagle22
02-08-2010, 15:16
IMO the more you practice and shoot ONE type of ammo, the more accurate you get vs changing brands and loads to what is the least expensive I can get .

PghJim
02-09-2010, 14:20
I use 155 gr. HST and they are available now on Ammo to Go. However, the velocity is not that much greater than the 165gr. I do not like 180grs.

LEAD
02-09-2010, 14:47
You've probly figured out by now that its a pretty split debate.

Facts= Heavier loadings will have less percieved recoil and slower velocities
Lighter loadings will have more kenetic energy and drop less over the same distance.

LEAD
02-09-2010, 14:51
Some hard core velocity junkies only look at those numbers. They could care less what kind or brand of bullets they are.

Many people have little quirks. I would rather have a 9mm with a 115+P+ for home/apartment than the ones you have listed. I would rather carry a 40 cal 180gr than a 45 with less than 230gr. A 9mm rather than a 40 with less than 180gr.

The 10mm is on my list of calibers to pick up when I find a deal on one. I know if I wait long enough I will have a customer trade one in on a more common caliber pistol.

165gr has a better real world track record.

PghJim
02-09-2010, 21:08
I know this is old data and the 180 grs may have gotten better, but they are at the bottom of the list.

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=11&Weight=All

LEAD
02-10-2010, 06:32
I know this is old data and the 180 grs may have gotten better, but they are at the bottom of the list.

http://www.handloads.org/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=11&Weight=All

I like this part:
<TABLE border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=640><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=8>40 S&W Stopping Power 0 gr <TR><TD class=header align=middle>Brand <TD class=header align=middle>Bullet <TD class=header align=middle>Shootings <TD class=header align=middle>One Shot Stops <TD class=header align=middle>Percent <TD class=header align=middle>Diameter <TD class=header align=middle>Penetration <TD class=header align=middle>Notes <TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='silver'" onmouseout="this.style.backgroundColor='white'"><TD class=bullet width=60 align=middle>Winchester <TD class=bullet>FMJ <TD class=bullet width=60 align=middle>28 <TD class=bullet>17 <TD class=bullet width=60 align=middle>61% <TD class=bullet>0.4" <TD class=bullet width=60 align=middle>16.7" <TD class=bullet>4" barrel or less</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

17 unfortunate people died after being shot with 0gr. projectiles. I'm betting this typo was also supposed to read 180gr.

gatorboy
02-10-2010, 07:08
No love for the 155gr HST? It's a mid-weight loading, kinda like 124gr in 9mm or 200gr in .45ACP.

I consider it meduim - light. 25 less than 180, 20 more than 135. The 115 9mm, 155 .40 and 200 .45 have the same sectional density. The 124 would be equal to about a 165 .40 and a 215 .45 if there was such a beast.

I've got 135, 155, 165 and 180 HST on hand and have had best results with the 155's and 180's shooting directly at naked and dressed water jugs and shooting through an old windshield at the same. Can't go wrong with any of them but the 135's are on the weak side with the same velocity as the 155's.