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45gunner
08-14-2008, 16:49
Some of you may be aware of the potential for high lead levels in your blood due to indoor shooting. I am going through that right now.

Indoor shooting in moderation is ok but please make sure there is always adequate ventalation otherwise just leave. Don't shoot indoors with lead or around other people that shoot lead.

I'm sure this is no revelation to people shooting for years but for me it's an awakening.

After talking to some people and doing some research on the web it appears that taking in extra Vitamin C is a way to address the problem. > 1000 mg per day.

See.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w99/newresearch.html

Please consult your doctor first.

Gary G23
08-14-2008, 17:35
I used to shoot every Monday night in Springfield TN but quit because of this very reason.

heavyfire7537
08-15-2008, 11:09
Does bluegrass have adequate ventilation?

ciwsguy
08-15-2008, 12:32
I quit shooting at Bluegrass Indoor years ago because of the awful headaches I got after about 30 min of exposure. I attributed this to breathing gunsmoke. Only Bluegrass can provide the answer to your question about ventilation in their range today.

Not to bolster the competition between indoor ranges for business, but I have experienced no shooting related headaches after shooting at OpenRange in Crestwood. Then again, I haven't been shooting at Bluegrass for years, so it could be different today. I have never had my blood checked for lead levels as I don't shoot indoor frequently. Last went about 3 months ago, so I'm sure my trigger finger is rusty.

AutomotiveTech
08-15-2008, 17:03
I was told that if you are at an indoor range and you do not feel a strong breeze at your back the ventilation is not adequate.

ciwsguy
08-15-2008, 20:00
I was told that if you are at an indoor range and you do not feel a strong breeze at your back the ventilation is not adequate.

I don't sense a "strong" breeze at openrange - but when you shoot you can see the gunsmoke moving away from you. It's more of a subtle breeze from the backside.

Bladerunner747
08-15-2008, 20:15
There is a chelator you can take so that your body is able to excrete the lead. It comes in pill form. DMSA. DiMercapto Succinic acid. It works!
You can have a hair sample expectrographic test to detect the lead level in your body.
If you have little ones at home you can tract the lead from the range into your house carpets. When they crawl around, play on the floor, they get contaminated. The young ones get affected the most, lead interferes with their developing brain.
I have a pair of boots for pistol range use only.

45gunner
08-15-2008, 20:18
There is a chelator you can take so that your body is able to excrete the lead. It comes in pill form. DMSA. DiMercapto Succinic acid. It works!
You can have a hair sample expectrographic test to detect the lead level in your body.
If you have little ones at home you can tract the lead from the range into your house carpets. When they crawl around, play on the floor, they get contaminated. I have a pair of boots for pistol range use only.

If the Vitiamin C doesn't work I will try it.
I have already tried a Chealator called "Metal Magic". It did not do anything.

Bladerunner747
08-15-2008, 20:43
There area lot of those remedies out there that are bogus. For lead use DMSA. It works.

AutomotiveTech
08-16-2008, 19:04
45gunner - I am assuming you had a blood test that revealed high lead levels, what did your doctor say to do?

45gunner
08-16-2008, 21:58
45gunner - I am assuming you had a blood test that revealed high lead levels, what did your doctor say to do?

The doctor office said to stay away from the source of lead. Indoor ranges.
I belive the standard procedure is to measure the lead level for three consective month. If it drops below 55, mine is at 63, then somthing has to be done.

I have stayed away from indoor ranges and had my level checked for twice. The level is still 63. :dunno:

I just talked to another shooter with the same problem that had taken vitiamin c and after doing some research on the web that indicates that it would help I thought I would try it for a month.

For some reason I have not been able to talk to my doctor about the problem despite the fact I have tried many times.

I am trying to stay away from the hard core chealators. Seems there is lots of side affects.

Keoking
08-16-2008, 22:21
I shot at a very dirty indoor range 2x/week for over a year. Stumbled across a thread like this on GT, and did the research. This range had none of the qualities of a good indoor range (almost no ventilation, dry brooms used to clean, no wet washing of anything).

The doctor I went to see turned out to be a recreational shooter, and he took a big interest in my lead test. He ended up talking to the leading expert on lead poisoning in Texas.

I think I came in at 45 or so. Doc told me to stop shooting there forever, and find an outdoor range. My level wasn't high enough to hurt an adult, but it had to be nipped in the bud.

Bladerunner747
08-17-2008, 03:11
You will also show a high content of Antimony (A hardening agent) that is a by-product of gun powder.
DMSA has no side effect other than you will have to take vitamins to replace some of the good stuff that it chelates along with the bad. a Minor inconvenience.
You need to see a doctor who is trained in dosage and application. I am not a doctor, of course. I know because for a shooter, your situation is not unfamiliar to me.
The FBI had to replace carpets in some of their buildings because of the lead problem. Reported in the media. Just use an old pair of boots just for shooting and keep it in the garage, out of the way.
Good luck!

CJStudent
08-17-2008, 15:23
I quit shooting at Bluegrass Indoor years ago because of the awful headaches I got after about 30 min of exposure. I attributed this to breathing gunsmoke. Only Bluegrass can provide the answer to your question about ventilation in their range today.

Not to bolster the competition between indoor ranges for business, but I have experienced no shooting related headaches after shooting at OpenRange in Crestwood. Then again, I haven't been shooting at Bluegrass for years, so it could be different today. I have never had my blood checked for lead levels as I don't shoot indoor frequently. Last went about 3 months ago, so I'm sure my trigger finger is rusty.

I also got a headache rather badly from Bluegrass, so for that (and other) reasons, I don't shoot there anymore. I ended up doing most of my shooting at Knob Creek now.

45gunner
08-17-2008, 20:28
I also got a headache rather badly from Bluegrass, so for that (and other) reasons, I don't shoot there anymore. I ended up doing most of my shooting at Knob Creek now.

I will be shooting at Knob Creek and Silver Creek from now on.

CJStudent
08-18-2008, 05:58
I will be shooting at Knob Creek and Silver Creek from now on.

As a matter of fact, I think I'll be at Knob Creek sometime this week, prolly Wednesday. :supergrin:

openrange
08-18-2008, 12:34
.45 Gunner I'm so sorry to hear about your lead levels. Lead takes years to get down to a relatively safe level after it takes roost and can cause many health maladies as I'm sure you are aware of. This is not to be taken lightly by others.

One thing I would disagree with is the advice from your doctor "no shooting at indoor ranges". A hygienic range will not expose you to unsafe levels. For example we Hepa Vacuum (a $4000 vacuum specifically for hygienic environments) our ranges daily, wipe down the tables, mop behind the firing line, use sticky mats when going downrange, provide hand wipes for all our customers after shooting and have a world class air handling system. We pick up all the brass for the customers and push the brass with a squeege not a broom or a mop which picks up any traces of chemicals and lead and throws it into the air. The customer is not subjected to unsafe levels of lead at Openrange.

Feeling a stiff breeze is not proof of a good air system, it is how well the system moves the air. I've seen ranges which uses a chicken coop fan to move air! At Openrange we have 55 feet per minute at the firing line provided by a wall of air, not diffusers or fans in the ceiling that just stir the air up. The idea of the plenum wall of air is that a whole wall of air walks down the range minimizing the eddies and currents from a diffuser style. If you look at our wall (looks like a big peg board) the air comes through all the holes. This is a hygienic system that works and was designed in accordance to NRA, US Navy and Health experts. Anything less is suspect.

We have done smoke tests to verify the direction the air moves around and away from the shooter. The smoke moves quickly away from the shooter with no currents or eddies. A typical range (I've seen smoke test photos) with diffusers can actually swirl the smoke right back into the shooters face.

To make things even better, all our air comes in fresh from outdoors. None is recirculated back into the building so there is no possibility of contamination. I would dare say we have more money in our air handling system than most ranges have in their whole facility.

We have proof of the hygiene of our system in that I requested OSHA to come out and test our facility. We passed and was told that we were the cleanest firing range they had ever seen. Our Chief RSO (who spends more time on the range than any shooter!) was tested wearing a device around his neck to measure lead and contaminates. The levels were well below in the safe range. Both he and I went for blood lead level tests and both passed with flying colors. This was after 2 years of constant service at Openrange. So I speak with confidence and proof that our range works.

Ask your favorite indoor range if they've done even a fraction of the above. If they haven't, why not? Isn't your health worth it? I would dare say many of our indoor ranges would be shut down by OSHA if they went in and did lead swabs around the facility as they did at Openrange.

As an expert in safety and air movement, I have spent hundreds of hours performing due dilligence in designing Openrange to be the best it can be. Many have visited Openrange to copy our design for their new facilities (Louisville Metro is the most recent). Lead is a huge threat to you and your families health (you can pass the lead off to your family when you sit with lead laden clothes on furniture) and rest assured we do everything possible to provide you a hygienic and fun experience.

Again I'm very sorry to hear about your experience yet hopefully this will shed some light on the issue before other get seriously ill and may call those to action who have had used similar locations as 45 Gunner.

Barry

45gunner
08-18-2008, 18:14
.45 Gunner I'm so sorry to hear about your lead levels. Lead takes years to get down to a relatively safe level after it takes roost and can cause many health maladies as I'm sure you are aware of. This is not to be taken lightly by others.

One thing I would disagree with is the advice from your doctor "no shooting at indoor ranges". A hygienic range will not expose you to unsafe levels. For example we Hepa Vacuum (a $4000 vacuum specifically for hygienic environments) our ranges daily, wipe down the tables, mop behind the firing line, use sticky mats when going downrange, provide hand wipes for all our customers after shooting and have a world class air handling system. We pick up all the brass for the customers and push the brass with a squeege not a broom or a mop which picks up any traces of chemicals and lead and throws it into the air. The customer is not subjected to unsafe levels of lead at Openrange.

Feeling a stiff breeze is not proof of a good air system, it is how well the system moves the air. I've seen ranges which uses a chicken coop fan to move air! At Openrange we have 55 feet per minute at the firing line provided by a wall of air, not diffusers or fans in the ceiling that just stir the air up. The idea of the plenum wall of air is that a whole wall of air walks down the range minimizing the eddies and currents from a diffuser style. If you look at our wall (looks like a big peg board) the air comes through all the holes. This is a hygienic system that works and was designed in accordance to NRA, US Navy and Health experts. Anything less is suspect.

We have done smoke tests to verify the direction the air moves around and away from the shooter. The smoke moves quickly away from the shooter with no currents or eddies. A typical range (I've seen smoke test photos) with diffusers can actually swirl the smoke right back into the shooters face.

To make things even better, all our air comes in fresh from outdoors. None is recirculated back into the building so there is no possibility of contamination. I would dare say we have more money in our air handling system than most ranges have in their whole facility.

We have proof of the hygiene of our system in that I requested OSHA to come out and test our facility. We passed and was told that we were the cleanest firing range they had ever seen. Our Chief RSO (who spends more time on the range than any shooter!) was tested wearing a device around his neck to measure lead and contaminates. The levels were well below in the safe range. Both he and I went for blood lead level tests and both passed with flying colors. This was after 2 years of constant service at Openrange. So I speak with confidence and proof that our range works.

Ask your favorite indoor range if they've done even a fraction of the above. If they haven't, why not? Isn't your health worth it? I would dare say many of our indoor ranges would be shut down by OSHA if they went in and did lead swabs around the facility as they did at Openrange.

As an expert in safety and air movement, I have spent hundreds of hours performing due dilligence in designing Openrange to be the best it can be. Many have visited Openrange to copy our design for their new facilities (Louisville Metro is the most recent). Lead is a huge threat to you and your families health (you can pass the lead off to your family when you sit with lead laden clothes on furniture) and rest assured we do everything possible to provide you a hygienic and fun experience.

Again I'm very sorry to hear about your experience yet hopefully this will shed some light on the issue before other get seriously ill and may call those to action who have had used similar locations as 45 Gunner.

Barry

He actually said remove myself from the source of the problem.

I don't believe most people, myself included, know the difference in the ranges until you just explained it.

I have shot at your range many times. Really like it.
In the cold months ahead you will probably find me shooting there from time to time.

openrange
08-18-2008, 18:44
Of course listen to the doc. Just know we've gone overboard so this wouldn't happen to any of our customers or staff and if there was a place for you with your levels it would be here. If you tell us you're coming in we can also wipe down and mop your station just before you shoot to eliminate any potential even if it is remote.

It is also interesting to note that when the OSHA swabbed our place they found traces of lead on our rental guns which we had no idea that would happen. We have since promoted a regimen of wiping down our rental guns after every rental. So wipe off your guns then wash your hands every time you handle them as there is most likely lead there.

The Navy has some good reports on lead that you can google.

Get that crap out of your system anyway you can that is safe.

Barry

45gunner
08-21-2008, 21:29
When I first had my lead level checked I had not experience any problems that I thought was related to lead posioning. I just had the doctor check my lead level as a precautionary measure. I attributed most of my problems from the fact that Im over 50, out of shape, and moody because of my age :)

Some info on lead posioning taken from info I got from the doctors.

A couple of things I have learned that death due to high lead level is uncommon but may cause

1. Pain numbness or tingling of the extremities.
2. Muscular weakness.
3. Headache
4. Abdominal pain.
5. Memory loss
6. Mood disorders
7. Reduced sperm count.


I'm really having a hard time pinning down what caused my specific high lead level problem. I do many things that other shooter may not.

1. I practice quite a bit more than others. Last year I probably shot at least 5 times a week. Probably shot about 30k rounds. Lead and Jacketed bullets

2. I shoot and reload with lead quite a bit. I do wash my hands. I don't always wear gloves when reloading lead. I always wear gloves now.

3. I have been shooting indoors for about three years and in ranges that probably have marginal ventalation system.

4. I help setup/take down and run, score and R.O. most all of those matches for two years. So I am probably exposed to at least three to four times more that most shooters. R.Oing exposes the R.O. to the lead that other people shoot as well as their own. People that shoot indoors like I do but do not help score or R.O. a lot probably do not have the same problems. I have probably attended more indoors matches on a consistant basis as anyone that shoots.

5. The matches are held out in the middle of the range where I don't think there is adequate ventalation.

6. The ventalation that is there just circulates air inside the range and does not move the contaminated air out of the building. If Openrange has a good system then I recommend using it. Can we have matches there? Does Open range allow matches in the middle of the bays? Does air circulate in the middle of the bays there ?

I'm not a doctor I just know that it's dangerous and other people should be aware of the problems one can have. Please have your lead level checked.

For now I am just going to avoid shooting with lead or if I do shoot with lead make sure I shoot it outdoors and will not shoot anymore with people that shoot inside with lead.

I am getting ready to take a pill call Chemlet to remove the lead from my system.

openrange
08-22-2008, 15:13
I'm really having a hard time pinning down what caused my specific high lead level problem. I do many things that other shooter may not.

1. I practice quite a bit more than others. Last year I probably shot at least 5 times a week. Probably shot about 30k rounds. Lead and Jacketed bullets

2. I shoot and reload with lead quite a bit. I do wash my hands. I don't always wear gloves when reloading lead. I always wear gloves now.

3. I have been shooting indoors for about three years and in ranges that probably have marginal ventalation system.

4. I help setup/take down and run, score and R.O. most all of those matches for two years. So I am probably exposed to at least three to four times more that most shooters. R.Oing exposes the R.O. to the lead that other people shoot as well as their own. People that shoot indoors like I do but do not help score or R.O. a lot probably do not have the same problems. I have probably attended more indoors matches on a consistant basis as anyone that shoots.

5. The matches are held out in the middle of the range where I don't think there is adequate ventalation.

6. The ventalation that is there just circulates air inside the range and does not move the contaminated air out of the building. If Openrange has a good system then I recommend using it. Can we have matches there? Does Open range allow matches in the middle of the bays? Does air circulate in the middle of the bays there ?

I'm not a doctor I just know that it's dangerous and other people should be aware of the problems one can have. Please have your lead level checked.

For now I am just going to avoid shooting with lead or if I do shoot with lead make sure I shoot it outdoors and will not shoot anymore with people that shoot inside with lead.

I am getting ready to take a pill call Chemlet to remove the lead from my system.

openrange
08-22-2008, 16:38
I can pin your high level of lead down immediately.

I would say a HUGE red flag would be raised with your statement "Marginal Ventilation". If the air is not hepa scrubbed with a top system kept in top repair, and reintroduced into the range, (or pure fresh air always introduced), then you are simply breathing lead straight into your lungs which is a highway to your blood stream etc.

Marginal ventilation in an indoor range is an area to consider legal or civil action. That range is poisoning you, your friends and your family (the lead travels home to share with your wife, kids and others).

Lead laden ranges are a threat to the shooting sports. Anti gunners already shut down ranges across the states from legal actions. Thoughtless ranges like you describe open the doors for anti gunners to legitimize shutting all indoor ranges.

#2 red flag is "going down range". Down range is where all the lead sifts to the floor. If the range doesn't hepa-vac its floors before allowing you down range or does not use 'sticky mats' to remove the lead from your shoes, you are just bathing in lead. Worse yet are ranges that sweep with a broom or a dry mop which sends lead into the air to land on every surface and into your lungs. Every time you pick up your mag from the floor - lead. When you take your shoes off - lead. When you breathe the air down range that isnt scrubbed or fresh - lead.

You ask if we hold indoor shoots downrange. We have leagues (we are on hold till winter) where we have different courses of fire both at the firing line and downrange. We always hepa vac, run our clean air, use sticky mats and provide hand wipes to all. As previously mentioned we pipe fresh air in at all times at a feet per minute recommended by hygienists.

I think this is a hugely important topic and wish more would take interest. I have shooters visit us that joke about shooting at indoor facilities where they know there is no ventilation (they think thats funny?) yet they really aren't looking at the long term affects to their health, the health of the family or to the future of the shooting sports.

Thanks for the notification of your plight and I hope your issue will help other avoid the same. I also hope others that use the same facility as yours get tested to check their levels as well.

Barry

ciwsguy
08-22-2008, 17:03
I can pin your high level of lead down immediately.

I would say a HUGE red flag would be raised with your statement "Marginal Ventilation". If the air is not hepa scrubbed with a top system kept in top repair, and reintroduced into the range, (or pure fresh air always introduced), then you are simply breathing lead straight into your lungs which is a highway to your blood stream etc.

Marginal ventilation in an indoor range is an area to consider legal or civil action. That range is poisoning you, your friends and your family (the lead travels home to share with your wife, kids and others).

Lead laden ranges are a threat to the shooting sports. Anti gunners already shut down ranges across the states from legal actions. Thoughtless ranges like you describe open the doors for anti gunners to legitimize shutting all indoor ranges.

#2 red flag is "going down range". Down range is where all the lead sifts to the floor. If the range doesn't hepa-vac its floors before allowing you down range or does not use 'sticky mats' to remove the lead from your shoes, you are just bathing in lead. Worse yet are ranges that sweep with a broom or a dry mop which sends lead into the air to land on every surface and into your lungs. Every time you pick up your mag from the floor - lead. When you take your shoes off - lead. When you breathe the air down range that isnt scrubbed or fresh - lead.

You ask if we hold indoor shoots downrange. We have leagues (we are on hold till winter) where we have different courses of fire both at the firing line and downrange. We always hepa vac, run our clean air, use sticky mats and provide hand wipes to all. As previously mentioned we pipe fresh air in at all times at a feet per minute recommended by hygienists.

I think this is a hugely important topic and wish more would take interest. I have shooters visit us that joke about shooting at indoor facilities where they know there is no ventilation (they think thats funny?) yet they really aren't looking at the long term affects to their health, the health of the family or to the future of the shooting sports.

Thanks for the notification of your plight and I hope your issue will help other avoid the same. I also hope others that use the same facility as yours get tested to check their levels as well.

Barry

Excellent writeup, Barry. You mentioned things I hadn't even thought of. When do you plan to startup the winter league?

45gunner
08-22-2008, 17:58
Thanks for the writeup Barry.

I will be seeing you this winter and on rainy days.

openrange
08-22-2008, 19:05
Stand by on the winter league. If you have suggestions of what you'd like to see us do, let us know. No metal or bowling pin shooting as it is too possible for ricochets. So think of paper only ideas.

Barry

Berretta9
08-22-2008, 19:20
Wow, this place used to be somewhat civil.

45gunner
08-23-2008, 05:45
Stand by on the winter league. If you have suggestions of what you'd like to see us do, let us know. No metal or bowling pin shooting as it is too possible for ricochets. So think of paper only ideas.

Barry

Go to the USPSA website and pick any < 32 round match that will fit in the bay. :cool:

openrange
08-23-2008, 08:15
Beretta9,

I think this thread is incredibly valuable and frankly I think it has been civil. Health is incredibly important.

That being said there is nothing "civil" about poisoning another human being because of lack of hygiene in a commercial establishment. I have no idea what range or ranges where 45gunner has had his issues, but I think whatever range(s) it is should be held accountable to their customers health, don't you?

openrange
08-23-2008, 08:16
Beretta9,

I think this thread is incredibly valuable and frankly I think it has been civil. Health is incredibly important.

That being said there is nothing "civil" about poisoning another human being because of lack of hygiene in a commercial establishment.

I have no idea what range or ranges where 45gunner has had his issues, but I think whatever range(s) it is should be held accountable to their customers health, don't you?

Berretta9
08-23-2008, 20:09
Barry, I will definitly agree ones health is the most important thing. I think it is a great topic and thanks to John for starting it. There is some great info in here. I will also say that you have one of the nicest ranges I have ever been in. I've shot there a few times and enjoy the Glock matches you put on. The facilities are top notch. I don't shoot there more often because it's about a 30minute drive for me.
I only refer to the civility issue because it seems to have turned into a bash Bluegrass thread. A lot of us used to shoot at Sportshooters and when it closed they allowed us to move our matches there. They didn't have to let us tie up one of their bays. On some nights they had shooters waiting to shoot and could have used the bay. They have treated us fine. I think we will all agree that the ventilation and lighting could probably be better.

45gunner
08-23-2008, 20:44
Barry, I will definitly agree ones health is the most important thing. I think it is a great topic and thanks to John for starting it. There is some great info in here. I will also say that you have one of the nicest ranges I have ever been in. I've shot there a few times and enjoy the Glock matches you put on. The facilities are top notch. I don't shoot there more often because it's about a 30minute drive for me.
I only refer to the civility issue because it seems to have turned into a bash Bluegrass thread. A lot of us used to shoot at Sportshooters and when it closed they allowed us to move our matches there. They didn't have to let us tie up one of their bays. On some nights they had shooters waiting to shoot and could have used the bay. They have treated us fine. I think we will all agree that the ventilation and lighting could probably be better.

I didn't start this thread to bash anyone. I have never one mentioned the name of any range. I just wanted to make public the problems with lead posioning. It would very irresponsible of me to keep this a secret and have other people develop the same problem. Expecially the people I shoot with a lot and have made friends with. Friends tell other friends about problems even if they don't like hearing about it.

If I have seemed irritated at some people for not seeing the potential problems because they have not been tested or shoot infrequentlly enough were it not a problem NOW but will be in the future then so much the better as I have made my point.

I don't believe in going on a public forum and bashing anyone without all my facts as the problem could have very well be my own. It light of this I have examined my own lead handling practices.

Please see http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html

45gunner
08-24-2008, 20:21
bump bump

ciwsguy
08-25-2008, 16:19
IMO, this has been a civil and informative discussion. If nothing else, it should have made shooters aware of the potentially hazardous issues of shooting indoor and handling. Did anyone reply from BIR as to their ventilation standard or quality?

45gunner
08-25-2008, 18:58
Please read the section in the link on precautions to take like blowing your nose, clean lead residue off your face and moustace, change clothes, handling of brass and shoes etc.
Please see http://www.utexas.edu/safety/ehs/msds/lead.html


Looks like I could have done a lot more had I know about this and after this discusson I will never handle my brass and reloading materials the same way and be much more cautious were I shoot at.

I have heard other people say that their lead level is not a problem even though they shoot at the same indoor range I shot at.

But a careful analysis revels that they don't R.O. as much, attend matches on a regular basis, don't pickup brass. Most only attend 1 match a week at the smaller matches.(This is a good thing for them. Bad for me)

I'm sure everyone is tired of hearing from me so for now my soapbox is worn out.

I was lucky to have had a checkup before my lead level got much higher and tooks steps to prevent further posioning.

Please have your lead level checked immediately.

:soap:

45gunner
08-26-2008, 16:26
My blood lead level test came back and shows that the lead level dropped from 64 to 54 after taking 2000mg of Vitiamin C for two weeks.

They say that blood tests are inaccurate.

I'm not a doctor but Vitiamin C seems to help. This has been confirmed by someone else I know that took Vitiamin C and stopped going to the indoor shooting range after having similar problems.

Go Sharks
08-26-2008, 16:37
Wow I never knew shooting effected you that much. I am definitely going to go to a different range now that I know this.

Houngan
08-26-2008, 20:43
Hey folks, Matt Griffin here. I was the original "High Lead Guy" and I can shed some light on this. And, just to shake things up, I'm going to have nothing but good to say about either Open Range or Bluegrass in its present incarnation.

First, my lead level is currently 23. That's down from 42 a few years ago when I stopped shooting on Tuesdays. Otherwise I didn't change my routine at all, still reloaded molycoat lead, didn't wear gloves, etc. I can safely say that there is a ton of lead being taken on at the indoor shoots.

HOWEVER, it is not the range's fault. It's yours. Open Range boasts what is apparently a very modern, top-of-the-line system, and I believe him. His system moves a wall of air downrange at 55 feet per minute, which sounds like it does the trick for any indoor shooting range, as far as keeping lead away from the line shooters. BUT, at twenty yards my A zone split is about .40. At ten yards, it is .23. So on a sixteen round course, for example, I'm going to throw a wall of lead into a six-second wall of air that is moving away from me at 55fpm. By the time I unload and show clear, pick up my mags, and start walking, there's a good chance the wall will outrun me.

But not you. You started walking to paste the targets as soon as my gun was holstered, didn't you? You're going to take off at 2-3mph, which is 3-5fps, which is 180-300fpm. You're going to walk through that wall of crud, get to the targets, and then still be there when it passes by again. Double whammy. And you're going to do it over and over again.

Long and short, the open bay matches are going to get lead into your system, either fast through the lungs or slow through the skin, and there isn't much you can do about it. Maybe somebody in a Tyvek suit and a respirator handles all the pasting, but that's about it. I learned a lot from the indoor shoots, but I also am a helpful soul generally, so I stayed in the bay the entire time, pasting targets or RO'ing for every shooter. This was before the ventilation had been fixed in the bay. But the operative thing is that any range is only designed to protect stationary shooters at the line. Downrange is for the Tyvek guys.

Now I have to figure out how to get the last bit out. I've started wearing gloves while reloading, and I'm changing my clothes after coming in from the range, but I still know that my basement is coated in the stuff, as well as my shooting bag. After Nationals I'm going to go on a cleaning jag and see if I can't isolate some of the sources. But I point out that my 23 is now from zero indoor shooting. So let's all lay off the ranges, 'kay?

H.

45gunner
08-26-2008, 21:06
Matt,
If you read my link in one or the preceeding post it has a few more tips.
1. Wiping off your face and hands after shooting and before eating anything.
2. The the brass you pickup and reload contains lead. When handling it you should do it will gloves.
3. When I tumble my brass the residue in the tumbler contains lead from the brass. Clean the brass outside and dump the clean brass while wearing a two stage respirator.
4. Wash your hair after shooting. It can contain lead that transfers to your pillow at night.
5. Shoot only jacketed bullets.
6. You can google and find that lead testing kits are available. Im ordering some.

Bladerunner747
08-27-2008, 09:11
Vitamin C is a weak chelator, better than nothing though. If you take too much you'll get the runs, no big deal, just back off the dosage.
www.doctorsdata.com was the one lab my doctor used. Because blood tests are not that accurate, they use hair sample spectrographic tests. The cost was under $100 when I did it about three years ago, $78, I think. I am sure they have gone up in price like everything else.
You can order the kit from them.
I am going to get back on vitamin C. Cheap insurance!

Houngan
08-27-2008, 11:19
Matt,
If you read my link in one or the preceeding post it has a few more tips.
1. Wiping off your face and hands after shooting and before eating anything.
2. The the brass you pickup and reload contains lead. When handling it you should do it will gloves.
3. When I tumble my brass the residue in the tumbler contains lead from the brass. Clean the brass outside and dump the clean brass while wearing a two stage respirator.
4. Wash your hair after shooting. It can contain lead that transfers to your pillow at night.
5. Shoot only jacketed bullets.
6. You can google and find that lead testing kits are available. Im ordering some.


All good advice. I'm focusing on avoiding inhalation; after all, the lungs are made to take things in, the skin is made to keep things out. In other news, 1000 rounds of ammo shipped to Tulsa today, Miculek watch out!

H.

CJStudent
08-27-2008, 21:51
Barry, I will definitly agree ones health is the most important thing. I think it is a great topic and thanks to John for starting it. There is some great info in here. I will also say that you have one of the nicest ranges I have ever been in. I've shot there a few times and enjoy the Glock matches you put on. The facilities are top notch. I don't shoot there more often because it's about a 30minute drive for me.
I only refer to the civility issue because it seems to have turned into a bash Bluegrass thread. A lot of us used to shoot at Sportshooters and when it closed they allowed us to move our matches there. They didn't have to let us tie up one of their bays. On some nights they had shooters waiting to shoot and could have used the bay. They have treated us fine. I think we will all agree that the ventilation and lighting could probably be better.

It was prolly my fault on starting the Bluegrass bashing. I've had several bad experiences there, and prolly won't go back, but I shouldn't have pushed it into this thread. I apologize.

By the way, Openrange, I love y'all's facility! Only shot there once (because my dad had given me a gift card to there), but it was very impressive. :thumbsup:

45gunner
08-31-2008, 06:11
Some more info
http://dfuse.us/lead.html

This is one of the better articles I have seen.
Reloader's beware that you keep it clean.

It's not all the fault of the indoor shooting range unless they have a poor ventilation system.

45gunner
09-16-2008, 18:57
Lead level before treatment 55. After the Chemet treatment. 27 :cool:

TreehugginGlock
09-18-2008, 07:19
Lead level before treatment 55. After the Chemet treatment. 27 :cool:Congrats. I know that is making you feel better. Hopefully that means that we might see a little bit of you during the winter months, after all.

45gunner
09-18-2008, 18:48
Congrats. I know that is making you feel better. Hopefully that means that we might see a little bit of you during the winter months, after all.


With the lead and working so much I have not had time to do anything much in the evenings.

I do plan on shooting do some shooting with everyone later on.

Funny thing now that I have not been shooting as much I'm enjoying other things but my shooting is sufferring. Then again my inability to shoot on Sunday probably had somthing to do with Hurrican Ike winds blowing the targets all over the range. Life is just a bunch of tradeoffs.

TreehugginGlock
09-19-2008, 12:45
With the lead and working so much I have not had time to do anything much in the evenings.

I do plan on shooting do some shooting with everyone later on.

Funny thing now that I have not been shooting as much I'm enjoying other things but my shooting is sufferring. Then again my inability to shoot on Sunday probably had somthing to do with Hurrican Ike winds blowing the targets all over the range. Life is just a bunch of tradeoffs.Yea, yea, yea, Ike was the problem. Not what I heard.....:rofl:...I heard it was operator errors....:tongueout:

45gunner
09-19-2008, 16:01
Yea, yea, yea, Ike was the problem. Not what I heard.....:rofl:...I heard it was operator errors....:tongueout:

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

TreehugginGlock
09-19-2008, 19:10
Thanks for the vote of confidence.Any time. :wavey:

CJStudent
09-20-2008, 10:35
With the lead and working so much I have not had time to do anything much in the evenings.

I do plan on shooting do some shooting with everyone later on.

Funny thing now that I have not been shooting as much I'm enjoying other things but my shooting is sufferring. Then again my inability to shoot on Sunday probably had somthing to do with Hurrican Ike winds blowing the targets all over the range. Life is just a bunch of tradeoffs.

Glad to hear you're doing better, 45. I hear ya on the winds; I was driving back to Louisville from my Guard unit in Frankfort in that Sunday. Quite an interesting time, lol.

openrange
12-12-2008, 13:25
Great thread and really thoughtful info about shooting downrange which we highly resist and only do with sticky mats. The theory that you outrun your discharge is probably correct although lead is heavy and tends to drop to the floor quickly while smoke tends to linger in the air.

It is correct that if you shoot, clear, and quickly walk up to paste you could enter your own smoke yet I believe the lead would probably drop to the floor.

This is all speculation as I've never seen proof of this but my viewpoint is from talk to others in the industry.

I would highly recommend a sticky mats (which can be purchased fairly inexpensively) be used whenever you walk / play downrange. If you shoot weekly pick up a pack for the range, everyone will appreciate it.