This is straight up crazy stuff. Murder charge...

[NYC Drew]

Murder? I could understand some level of manslaughter.






http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/08/29/2008-08-29_man_who_stabbed_would_be_savior_in_muggi.html


The subway conductor who allegedly stabbed to death a good Samaritan trying to rescue him from muggers has been indicted for murder, law enforcement sources said.
Maurice Parks (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Maurice+Parks), 39, was arrested Thursday and notified in court today of the grand jury's action in the January melee that left 28-year-old Flonarza Byas dead.

"This is the right thing to do," said one police source. "The poor guy who died wasn't involved in anything. He was trying to help."
Prosecutors had no comment on the charges. The indictment is sealed until Parks - who had no lawyer with him in court - is arraigned next week.
Parks, a martial arts expert who shot and wounded another mugger about 14 years ago, was jumped by four teens as he walked home from his job near 139th St. and St. Nicholas Ave. on Jan. 11.
Stabbed in the stomach, he pulled his own knife plunged it into his would-be savior, apparently in the belief that he was part of the gang, according to police sources.
A lawyer for one of Parks' four alleged assailants - each charged with robbery - was surprised by the heavy charge against the transit worker.

"He was charged with murder? Wow. I'm surprised they made this decision," said Richard Landes (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Richard+Landes), who represents suspect Edwin Bonilla (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Edwin+Bonilla).
A source close to the case said the grand jury may have been swayed by the revelation there was a brief gap between the time Parks was jumped and the moment Byas was stabbed.
Parks initially maintained that Byas approached him along with the group of assailants, but some witnesses disputed that account.
"What he was saying was not true," a source said. "Byas was just walking home. People saw fragments of what happened but nobody saw that Byas ever went to Parks."

[Deradius]

This is an unfortunate tragedy.

The sad part is that some ignorant folks have apparently decided along the way that "someone has to pay".

....I humbly submit that if this really is true, it should be the punks who did the jumping, not the innocent civilian beset by a group.

"Detached reflection is not necessary in the presence of an upraised knife." - Holmes

[CAcop]

If anything voluntary manslaughter would be the case.

[NYC Drew]

If anything voluntary manslaughter would be the case.


It's education time. What's the difference (in CA or Federal level) between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter?

I think some of this is payback because the guy is Rambo. He must have known better.

[RonS]

This is a case where the authorities want to make the point that your only viable option is to submit. Just submit to anyone, anytime, anyway or the law will crush you one way or another.

[Biscuitsjam]

I think Felony murder would be a more appropriate charge...










Against the gangbangers

[florgy]

I think Felony murder would be a more appropriate charge...
Against the gangbangers

My thoughts exactly. If ever there was a case that defined felony murder, this is it. I would, however, be interested to know just how long the 'brief gap' was between the time he was initially attacked and the time the man was killed.
Regards.

[cjlandry]

It occurs to me that a murder charge might not stick, where a lesser charge would.

I've read of cases where prosecutors go with lesser charges because they're not certain that the harder charges will stick in front of a jury.

Maybe this is a subtle way of letting the guy walk without appearing to take his side?

:dunno:

Just a thought from someone who knows very little about such things.

[Dragoon44]

This is a case where the authorities want to make the point that your only viable option is to submit. Just submit to anyone, anytime, anyway or the law will crush you one way or another.

Maybe they want to make the point that killing someone who is not attacking you is not acceptable. and thought a "oops, my bad". would not suffice.

[Merkavaboy]

If anything voluntary manslaughter would be the case.

Maybe. But unfortunately, we (at least I) don't know how the laws read in NY statutes.

But just a couple of possible factors to throw out there:

1) Did the victim have a criminal history and/or criminal conviction(s)?

2) Is/was it illegal for the victim to be in possession of the knife?

3) The murder indictment from the GJ can always be reduced to a lesser charge in the hopes that the victim will make a plea bargain to the lesser charge and the DA will still get his/her conviction on a weapons charge (which always looks good in the jacket of a politically ambitious DA or prosecutor). If the victim (now defendant) doesn't want to take the "bait & switch" lesser charge, then the state can go full-bore all out and begin with murder proceedings.

In regards to 1 & 2, if the victim was committing a felony by either being a convicted criminal or breaking the law by being in possession of a knife, then any death that occurred because of these violations can easily justify a murder indictment.

[crazymoose]

Maybe they want to make the point that killing someone who is not attacking you is not acceptable. and thought a "oops, my bad". would not suffice.

+1

Usually I'm of the anti-authoritarian persuasion, but you don't get a pass after stabbing someone because you're having a really bad day.

[ede]

seems to me the 4 robbers would be the ones charged not Parks.

[NYC Drew]

Maybe they want to make the point that killing someone who is not attacking you is not acceptable. and thought a "oops, my bad". would not suffice.


Dude,

Certainly you, better than most must understand the guy would have been dazed and confused after tussling with 4 guys....


'Drew

[NYC Drew]

:laughabove:

[Skyhook]

Man, some of this just does not make sense.

Four guys jump this lone guy and one of them stabs him in the gut.

Then, from (where?) somewhere comes a 'Good Samaritan' -- really? Just who tagged this unfortunate guy as a 'rescuer'?

Anyhow, in the heat of a serious ass-whuppin (getting stabbed in the gut qualifies), I can see where the one being attacked might easily think all who come close potential murderers and act accordingly.

IF the 'Good Samaritan' was just that, mores the pity.. the wounded victim now has a nasty complication to deal with.

[RonS]

Around here, if you commit a crime and someone dies, YOU are charged with murder. IE, rob a victim, victim dies of a heart attack, the robber is charged. You attack someone and an innocent bystander is hurt, the criminal is responsible. It sounds like the victim had been attacked, his ability impaired by the injuries caused ty the original gang of criminals and as a result he killed the samaratain. So, would he have done so if his faculties had not been impaired by the original criminal attack? Who in this case originally committed a violent crime that resulted in the death. It wasn't the person charged.

[Skyhook]

Around here, if you commit a crime and someone dies, YOU are charged with murder. IE, rob a victim, victim dies of a heart attack, the robber is charged. You attack someone and an innocent bystander is hurt, the criminal is responsible. It sounds like the victim had been attacked, his ability impaired by the injuries caused ty the original gang of criminals and as a result he killed the samaratain. So, would he have done so if his faculties had not been impaired by the original criminal attack? Who in this case originally committed a violent crime that resulted in the death. It wasn't the person charged.

I agree.

[PeterJasonMN]

Wow. ****ty deal.

[silentpoet]

No MMQB from me on this one, too many unknowns.

[liliysdad]

+1

Usually I'm of the anti-authoritarian persuasion, but you don't get a pass after stabbing someone because you're having a really bad day.


I agree 100%

[the impaler]

I think here in Texas the muggers would be charged with the murder

[Gunboat1]

Two words - jury nullification. I hope for justice to be done.

[NYC Drew]

No MMQB from me on this one, too many unknowns.

The article pretty much covers all of it.

guy is coming home from work, jumped by 4 guys.
he has a significant level of martial arts training
he is fighting these guys off bare handed, one of them pulls a knife, guts him.
he pulls his own knife, and starts slashing away
The person he knives fatally was someone coming to his aid14 years ago, he shot and killed a bad guy in another instance. Not sure if it was his gun, or their gun...


'Drew

[Natty]

If you choose to live in cesspool, you must live by said cesspools rules.

cess·pool (sspl)
n.

A filthy, disgusting, or morally corrupt place.

[NYC Drew]

If you choose to live in cesspool, you must live by said cesspools rules.

cess·pool (sspl)
n.

A filthy, disgusting, or morally corrupt place.


"Be silent, or let thy words mean more than silence."

[Natty]

"The Truth is heavy, therefore few care to carry it."

[CAcop]

It's education time. What's the difference (in CA or Federal level) between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter?

I think some of this is payback because the guy is Rambo. He must have known better.

Short version:

Voluntary means you meant to do the person harm.

Involuntary means that you did not mean to hurt the person.

Note this is about hurt not kill. IF you intend to kill it then becomes murder, 1st and 2nd degrees that somewhat mirror the voluntary/involuntary split. I could post the whole statues but I am sick right now and too tired to search stuff online. I feel like taking a nap and I just woke up after 11 hours of sleep.

[NYC Drew]

If you choose to live in cesspool, you must live by said cesspools rules.




A really stupid quote, because most who choose to live in a cesspool environment do not follow rules.

:)


Your 2nd quote? Spot on!

'Drew

[Sam Spade]

Hmmm....according to this story, it seems that he stabbed the Good Sam while the Good Sam was running away. That sure puts a new light on things.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/nyregion/30murder.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Mr. Parks had just finished his late-night shift as a subway motorman on Jan. 10 and was walking home to his Harlem apartment when a group of men intending to rob him attacked him from behind, said Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman. Mr. Parks was stabbed, Mr. Browne said, and a bystander, Flonarza M. Byas, 28, of Manhattan, apparently came to his aid. After Mr. Parks, a black belt in a type of jujitsu known as VSK jujitsu, freed himself from his attackers, he pulled out a knife and “brings the fight to them,” Mr. Browne said. Mr. Parks was hospitalized with stab wounds to the hands and abdomen.

He apparently stabbed Mr. Byas while Mr. Byas was trying to flee, Mr. Browne said; the stabbing occurred on the same block as the attack, 139th Street and St. Nicholas Avenue.

[NYC Drew]

Hmmm....according to this story, it seems that he stabbed the Good Sam while the Good Sam was running away. That sure puts a new light on things.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/nyregion/30murder.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


How does someone simultaneously come to your aid and try to flee at the same time Sam?

It does happen, I concur, but also what happens in those fast slices of time is, there is a lot of chaos in those kinds of melees. I have been in more than "a dozen" :whistling: fights, two of them really bad, one of which ended up being recorded. I've never been in a real fight where I knew my head from my ass. Everything was mostly a blur, and I had to focus real bad to keep an even keel.

I (too) would like to see what the DAs office saw in arriving at a MURDER charge. If it is factual that he was walking home from work, and it is factual that he did not instigate this fight, then chances are, he was lashing out at the nearest warm body. Right? Not by a long stretch...but in my mind, a mitigating circumstance.

If I were to be picked for his jury...well, of course I would follow the judge's instructions closely. But you can tag me closed mind on this one...


'Drew

[Dragoon44]

How does someone simultaneously come to your aid and try to flee at the same time Sam?

It does happen, I concur, but also what happens in those fast slices of time is, there is a lot of chaos in those kinds of melees. I have been in more than "a dozen" :whistling: fights, two of them really bad, one of which ended up being recorded. I've never been in a real fight where I knew my head from my ass. Everything was mostly a blur, and I had to focus real bad to keep an even keel.

I (too) would like to see what the DAs office saw in arriving at a MURDER charge. If it is factual that he was walking home from work, and it is factual that he did not instigate this fight, then chances are, he was lashing out at the nearest warm body. Right? Not by a long stretch...but in my mind, a mitigating circumstance.

If I were to be picked for his jury...well, of course I would follow the judge's instructions closely. But you can tag me closed mind on this one...


'Drew

uhhh. well let me put on my rocket scientist cap Drew....... Your coming ot the aid of the guy, then you see him look at you with the knife in his hand and he starts towards you in an aggressive posture, MOST people, (Except Drew of course) would RUN AWAY.

:rofl::rofl:

Add in the gap between the time the attackers fled and the "victim" went after the good Samaritan and it is easy to see how they came up with murder.

[Sam Spade]

Reading the whole story at the link (I snipped it in my quote), it sounded to me like Parks won the initial fight and broke free of the attack. Then he pulls his own knife and starts chasing people down, killing his would-be rescuer. Yeah, that'd warrant a murder charge---killing the guy who didn't attack you when the immediate threat to your life was past.


But as I say on so many of these threads: We'll need to wait for more facts.

[NYC Drew]

uhhh. well let me put on my rocket scientist cap Drew....... Your coming ot the aid of the guy, then you see him look at you with the knife in his hand and he starts towards you in an aggressive posture, MOST people, (Except Drew of course) would RUN AWAY.

:rofl::rofl:

Add in the gap between the time the attackers fled and the "victim" went after the good Samaritan and it is easy to see how they came up with murder.

No need to resort to histronics to make your point. I have been in multiple fights (and got my ass handed to me in most of them), most of those were with knifes, ice picks & machetes... I don't recall in any of them, anyone not involved coming to my aid.

I have also observed many fights - ... I have never seen anyone volunteer to intercede on anyone's behalf (except LE, or armed security) in those hundreds, if not thousands of fights.

So I can fully understand why the person charged with murder might interpret that someone rushing into the fray was an additional aggressor.

Your mileage may of course vary, but just because you see it a certain way, does not mean that is the way it panned out. I am placing myself in the mind of the accused.

:)

'Drew

[NYC Drew]

Reading the whole story at the link (I snipped it in my quote), it sounded to me like Parks won the initial fight and broke free of the attack. Then he pulls his own knife and starts chasing people down, killing his would-be rescuer. Yeah, that'd warrant a murder charge---killing the guy who didn't attack you when the immediate threat to your life was past.


But as I say on so many of these threads: We'll need to wait for more facts.

At the point when you say he broke free of the attack, he was already nursing a gut wound. I've gotten one of those, and I've been stabbed in my neck (separate incident) and in my shoulder (separate incident)...and in my arm :whistling: - yet another separate incident, that one the stabber was a close family member.

If you've ever been in a melee, with lots guys thrashing around you, you might understand. Again, not wrong or right, just you'd understand.

'Drew
:cool:

[Dragoon44]

So I can fully understand why the person charged with murder might interpret that someone rushing into the fray was an additional aggressor.

But when the person rushing towards you turns and runs away it is not a good idea to pursue them and stab them to death. And THAT is why this guy is facing murder charges. most people can understand if it happened in the middle of a fight. But once the fight is over, you don't get to chase people down and kill them.

[NYC Drew]

But when the person rushing towards you turns and runs away it is not a good idea to pursue them and stab them to death. And THAT is why this guy is facing murder charges. most people can understand if it happened in the middle of a fight. But once the fight is over, you don't get to chase people down and kill them.


Ok Dragoon. I get it. All of the other times when you chastise me for believing what the media put in print, you were right, and I was wrong - we shouldn't necessarily take for granted that what is put in print is an actual depection of what transpired, oh, (lord) how many times have you seen the media get something completely wrong.

This time, when the media puts it in print, you are right, and I am, predictably wrong. Right? :)

Don't answer. :rofl:

All I've maintained is, I've seen more than enough of my fair share of fights, and been involved in enough fights to know just how dazed and confused someone can be, coming out of a fight. Would you like a scenario where this occurred? NYPD Officer Eric Hernandez (granted, he was also ineberated...but the circumstances are the same - in a fight, can't tell friend from foe)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183099,00.html
NEW YORK — In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.
Eric Hernandez, 25, was hit three times and was hospitalized in extremely critical condition, Mayor Michael Bloomberg (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:siteSearch%28%27Michael%20Bloomberg%27%29;) said.

The officer who pulled the trigger, identified only as a 20-year veteran of the force, was being treated for trauma at another hospital. Hernandez had been in line at a White Castle restaurant (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:siteSearch%28%27White%20Castle%20restaurant%27%29;) in the Bronx shortly before 5 a.m. when he was assaulted by a half-dozen men, Bloomberg said. It wasn't immediately clear what sparked the fight, but it was captured on the restaurant's security camera.

A White Castle employee called 911, and Hernandez — with his gun drawn — ran into the parking lot after his assailants, Bloomberg said. He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.
One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:siteSearch%28%27Ray%20Kelly%27%29;) said.
Hernandez, who joined the force last year, never fired his weapon, authorities said. He was shot in each leg and the abdomen and lost a lot of blood, Bloomberg said.

Kelly said officials were questioning eight individuals about the shooting, including the six who fought with Hernandez inside the White Castle. It was believed to be the NYPD's first friendly fire shooting since Desmond Robinson, ...

[NYC Drew]

...to add, not saying that the accused did not wrongly kill the man, but the jackasses of prosecutors or whoever else decided to press MURDER charges surely must realize this man did not punch out from work, and decide to go kill someone. He acted re actively, and instinctively after himself being attacked and stabbed in the stomach.

That alone should have bumped it down to Man1, with murder charges against the folks who brought the fight to the accused.



Don't even know if these apply in NYC!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManslaughterVoluntary manslaughter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_manslaughter) describes cases where the defendant may have an intent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intention_%28criminal%29) to cause death or serious injury, but the potential liability for the person is mitigated by the circumstances and/or state of mind. The most common example is the so-called passion, or heat of the moment killing,

However, if a person acted in the honest but unreasonable belief that self-defense justified the killing, many US states will define this as deliberate homicide committed without criminal malice: a manslaughter. The word "malice" is used in the definition of murder where the act is both an intentional killing, and without legal excuse or mitigation. The honest belief in the need for self-defense mitigates the crime so that one acts intentionally, but without the legal "malice."



:cool:
'Drew

[1811guy2]

It's education time. What's the difference (in CA or Federal level) between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter?

I think some of this is payback because the guy is Rambo. He must have known better.

Mens Reus - what CA cop said sums it up. Involuntary manslaughter could involve one's actions that that the defendant knows or should have known could cause death. This is a common charge in DUI's. Voluntary manslaughter is unlawful taking of another's life that does not rise to the level of murder. This typically includes killings that result from "the heat of passion" and in some liberal states will be used against homeowners who shot a burglar breaking into their home.

[NYC Drew]

Mens Reus - what CA cop said sums it up. Involuntary manslaughter could involve one's actions that that the defendant knows or should have known could cause death. This is a common charge in DUI's. Voluntary manslaughter is unlawful taking of another's life that does not rise to the level of murder. This typically includes killings that result from "the heat of passion" and in some liberal states will be used against homeowners who shot a burglar breaking into their home.

Thanks 1811. With what CACop gave me, I used the interweb to get a better idea.

No matter what, I'll try my darned best to avoid ANY of those types of charges.

'Drew

[Dragoon44]

but the circumstances are the same - in a fight, can't tell friend from foe)

I think in those fights you got knocked in the noggin once to many Drew, I don't think even if I were dazed and confused I could see the two scenarios as being the same, or even similar.

in one you have a off duty cop in a fight who pursues his assailants and holds one at gun point. he is shot by responding officers ( who were NOT involved in the fight) when they roll up and find him pointing a gun at someone else.

in the other you have a guy who after his assailants retreat picks out a guy that was there to help him and pursues him and stabs him.

[slewfoot]

Did I miss something, are the attackers being charged with murder also?

If they had not attacked the conductor, the Samaritan would have made it home alive.

[NYC Drew]

Did I miss something, are the attackers being charged with murder also?

If they had not attacked the conductor, the Samaritan would have made it home alive.

I missed it too...hopefully the Sunday papers will have a little more details on the case.



in one you have a off duty cop in a fight who pursues his assailants and holds one at gun point. he is shot by responding officers ( who were NOT involved in the fight) when they roll up and find him pointing a gun at someone else.

in the other you have a guy who after his assailants retreat picks out a guy that was there to help him and pursues him and stabs him.


As you say sir. :)

In the case of the officer, he was certainly so out of it, so disoriented, that he was unable to process the commands by the uniformed officers who had no recourse but shoot him. My point was, that in a fight, people are sometimes in a bind to figure out friend from foe, up from down.

Say, how many times have you ever had the spit knocked out of you? Because unlike past interactions, I get the distinct feeling you've never really been ****ed over, hence you're not discussing this from actual experience.

Maybe someone who's ever had their ass handed to them could comment. But then again, every man is different. I can only speak for myself, and the fights I have observed (again, certainly more than one hundred observed....if you include the ones at home :rofl: damn near five hundred)


'Drew

[Dragoon44]

Say, how many times have you ever had the spit knocked out of you? Because unlike past interactions, I get the distinct feeling you've never really been ****ed over, hence you're not discussing this from actual experience.

I always operated under the rule it's better to give than to receive.

:supergrin:

[NYC Drew]

I always operated under the rule it's better to give than to receive.

:supergrin:

A sound & generous policy, I concur. :cool: Also quite the Christian thing to do....

g'night.

'Drew