Putin say US involved with Georgian incursion

[chowchow]

Putin says suspects U.S. provoked Georgia crisis 28 Aug 2008 19:16:02 GMT
Source: Reuters
(Adds more quotes, details)

MOSCOW, Aug 28 (Reuters) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Thursday he suspected unnamed persons in the United States had provoked the conflict in Georgia in an attempt to help a candidate in the U.S. presidential election.

Putin said Moscow suspected that U.S. nationals were present in the war zone in Georgia and the Russian military produced a copy of a U.S. passport it said had been retrieved after a bloody clash between Russian troops and Georgian special forces.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said Putin's allegations, made in an interview on CNN, were "patently false" and the U.S. State Department said it was "ludicrous" for the Russians to say they were not responsible for what had happened in Georgia.

In extracts of the interview broadcast on Russian state television, Putin did not say who may have been involved or which of the candidates -- Democrat Barack Obama or Republican John McCain -- was to have been the beneficiary.

The crisis in Georgia flared early this month when Georgian government forces tried to retake the separatist province of South Ossetia and Russia launched an overwhelming counter-attack.

Referring to Russian suspicions that U.S. citizens were actually present on the battlefield on the side of Georgian forces -- accused by Moscow of committing "genocide" during the conflict -- Putin said:

"If that is true, if that is confirmed, then that's really bad. It's very dangerous and a mistaken policy.

"It that was the case, then the recent events could have a American domestic political dimension," he said in the interview.

"If my suspicions are confirmed, in that case the suspicion arises that somebody in the United States has intentionally created this conflict with the aim of making the situation more tense and creating a competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of U.S. president."

"If that was the case, it's nothing less than the use of so-called administrative resources in a domestic political fight, in its worst, bloody dimension."

RECOGNITION MOVE

Russian forces swept the Georgian army out of the rebel region and are still occupying some areas of Georgia proper. On Tuesday, Moscow announced it was recognising South Ossetia and another breakaway region, Abkhazia, as independent states.

At a news briefing in Moscow, Russia's deputy chief of the General Staff, Col. General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said Moscow's forces had retrieved from a battlefield in Georgia a U.S. national's passport.

He showed an enlarged, colour photocopy of the document which was in the name of a Michael Lee White, born in 1967. The passport, issued in the Texas city of Houston, bore a current visa from Kazakhstan. U.S. citizens do not require a visa for Georgia.

[NYC Drew]

The Russians are crazy, but I know enough to know a lot of things are possible, that only come to light 50 years after the fact....

'Drew

[Sam Spade]

The Russians are crazy, but I know enough to know a lot of things are possible, that only come to light 50 years after the fact....

'Drew

Yeah, but US operators dropping their passports in a war zone isn't one of them.


Besides, let's recall who invaded whom.

[NYC Drew]

Yeah, but US operators dropping their passports in a war zone isn't one of them.


Besides, let's recall who invaded whom.

It would be interesting to verify the authenticity of the passport...but like I said, if you examine past operations overseas where the USA was complicit in those operations, the modus operandi is always outrage on the part of the USA - or any country with it's hand in the cookie jar.

I'm not believing much the Russians say, and I know that Putin's remarks are calculated as a part of the future down-the-road bargaining process, but still, I wonder...


'Drew

[Skyhook]

Putin: "The devil (USA) made me do it."


Being the Great Satan, this is what we are to expect, I suppose.:upeyes:

[chuckman]

Putin might be crazy, but ain't dumb...I know from, um, previous experience, that former KGB folks never really made it out of the Cold War mentality, and he has had a hard on for the US for many years. All the experts were saying Russia is not our friend after the disolving of the USSR, but we Americans lie to believe the best about people.
ETA: "Previous experience" is not intel, spy, or any other equally cool job. I just was 'in the know.'

[slewfoot]

I think this missile defense thing has got the Russians freaked out.

I would like to know just how important these missiles are. They are supposed to defend Europe against missile attack from Iran.

Personally, given the choice between Europe getting hit with Iranian missiles and a shooting war with Russia, I wish the Europeans well.

They have been living high on the hog on our dime. What have they done for us lately?

[Big Wes]

Don't under estimate the under handedness of the good ole USA.

[DaveA]

While I think this "operatives" stuff is mostly BS, it's hard to really fault Russia for invading. Maybe I'm wrong but from the way I read it, one of their territories was invaded and they slapped them back hard and took it back and then some with a "peace keeping" force.

The only question is how long that force stays there.

Am I wrong?

[Skyhook]

Don't under estimate the under handedness of the good ole USA.

:eyebrow:

"underhandedness"

Clandestine operations in the interest of preserving our nation's interests and allies may be termed "underhanded"... by some. That is not the FIRST thing which enters my thinking in this case, however. I probably missed something.:upeyes:

[paynter2]

Yeah, but US operators dropping their passports in a war zone isn't one of them.


Besides, let's recall who invaded whom.

It's my understanding that Georgia entered the province and to their horror was met with stiff resistance (and routed) by Russian forces.

As far as the passport, radio news said it was lost or stolen a few years ago.

[Skyhook]

While I think this "operatives" stuff is mostly BS, it's hard to really fault Russia for invading. Maybe I'm wrong but from the way I read it, one of their territories was invaded and they slapped them back hard and took it back and then some with a "peace keeping" force.

The only question is how long that force stays there.

Am I wrong?

Yeah? They had exhausted months of negotiations and diplomatic effort?

Too bad they didn't employ a talker like our BO Man.:supergrin:

[slewfoot]

What is the big deal with the passport? America has been furnishing Georgia with arms and military advisers, since their independence.

If we had clandestine operatives in the area, they did a piss poor job of alerting our government about the build up of Russian troops on their border, and the subsequent invasion.

[Big Bird]

Reminds me of the crap the Russians used to pull during the Cold War.

[MtBaldy]

While I think this "operatives" stuff is mostly BS, it's hard to really fault Russia for invading. Maybe I'm wrong but from the way I read it, one of their territories was invaded and they slapped them back hard and took it back and then some with a "peace keeping" force.

The only question is how long that force stays there.

Am I wrong?

You are completely wrong. South Ossetia was not one of "their's" but a part of Georgia. The unrest in SO was fomented by Putin. It would be akin to Cuban agents starting a revolt in Miami and then a full scale invasion when US troops tried to put it down.

I can't give you the link but this is an account of what happened from someone who spent years in the region:

THE RUSSIAN RAPE OF GEORGIA
Written by Ralph Peters
Saturday, 09 August 2008

As I write this in the early morning hours of August 9, Russian tanks grind into a brave and isolated democratic state.

Assuming that the world's attention would focus on Beijing, Moscow stage-managed an elaborate act of aggression against Georgia.

But the world has changed since Soviet tanks rolled unchallenged into Afghanistan at Christmastime 29 years ago. Global communications now spotlight aggression instantly.

Yesterday, millions around the world didn't watch the Olympic opening ceremonies (the Chinese must be furious at the Russians). Instead, they saw images of Soviet - sorry, I meant Russian - aircraft pounding Georgian territory as Russian armor rolled over the Caucasus Mountains.

The Kremlin is determined to break Georgia's will - and keep the feisty republic out of NATO.

Russia, you see, still believes it's entitled to all of its former empire. And, tragically, "Old Europe" is back: Yesterday, Germany and other nervous European states bought the Russian line that Georgia is the aggressor. Wouldn't want to anger Moscow . . .

The background: When a fellow officer and I drove through the region in 1991, Georgian patriots and Russian "peacekeepers" were already facing off. As the USSR collapsed, its security services leapt to foment separatist (pro-Moscow) movements in the newly independent states. In Georgia's case, that meant instigating rebellions in South Ossetia, Abkhazia and - unsuccessfully - Adjaria (the Caucasus is a crazy quilt of obscure identities). If Georgians insisted on independence, the Kremlin intended to dissect the country.

But then Russia found itself bogged down in a series of botched wars in Chechnya as its military rotted and the Yeltsin government floundered.

Now, however, the petrodollar-powered Russia of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and his straight man, President Dmitri Medvedev, is swaggering - and determined to punish Georgia, to make it an example to other defiant neighbors.

What just happened? The Kremlin decided it was time to act, since Georgia was only growing stronger under its democratically elected government. Although NATO has been hemming and hawing about admitting Georgia, the Russians didn't want to take any chances. (Just last month, 1,000 US troops were in Georgia for an exercise.)

Calculating that the media and world leaders would be partying in Beijing, the Russians ordered North Ossetian militiamen, backed by Russian "peacekeepers" and mercenaries, to provoke the Georgians earlier this month.

Weary of the Russian presence on their soil, the Georgians took the bait. President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered his US-trained military to respond.

That was the excuse the Kremlin wanted. Immediately, a tank brigade from Russia's 58th Army (the butchers of Chechnya) crossed the international border into Poland - sorry, I meant Georgia.

How do I know that the Russians set a trap? Simple: Given the wretched state of Russian military readiness, that brigade could never have shot out of its motor pool on short notice. The Russians obviously "task-organized" the force in advance to make sure it would have working tanks with competent crews.

Otherwise, broken-down vehicles would've lined those mountain roads.

The Russians planned it. And they hope to push it to the limit.

What happens next? This is a fight between a very small David and a very large Goliath. That said, the Russians may be surprised at how fiercely the Georgians defend their homeland. At least two, and possibly four, Russian jets have been shot down while attacking Georgian bases close to the capital city, Tbilisi.

Hundreds of civilians and dozens of militiamen, Kremlin-funded mercenaries and Russian "peacekeepers" have been killed, along with tens of Georgian troops. This fighting is serious. And, unless Moscow pulls out all the stops, its forces just might take a surprise beating.

The Russian view: If I were a Russian staff planner (and sober), I wouldn't expect to drive all the way to the Georgian capital - that would be too much for the West to stomach (although Russia's greatest strength today is that it doesn't care about world opinion).

My objective would be to take Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian "capital," then strike due south to cut Georgia's lifelines to the world - the strategic highway, parallel rail line and international pipeline that connect Georgia's eastern interior with its western ports.

Incidentally, such an offensive would take the Kremlin's tanks to the aptly named city of Gori, birthplace of Josef Stalin.

[TTP Editor Note: The Associated Press reports: Russian military aircraft bombed the Georgian town of Gori on Saturday (8/09). An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.]

If the Russian invaders can sever those links, they'll cut Georgia in half. Control of that road-rail-pipeline complex would not only bring the Georgian economy to a standstill - it would also allow the Kremlin's other clients in Abkhazia, on the Black Sea, to renew their attempt to devour Georgian territory.

Russian generals have always been good planners. The problems crop up in the execution. And the Russians have several vulnerabilities:

* They have only a single route over the rugged Caucasus range. If Georgian commandos interdict it, the Russians will feel the supply pinch quickly. And any major Russian military operations need to be wrapped up before autumn snows close the passes - if there isn't a cease-fire sooner.

* The Russians also need a local airfield to sustain their efforts - that could lure them closer to Georgia's capital.

* Finally, the Russian army still relies on brute force - sophisticated combat operations are not its specialty.

We don't know how this will develop. A Russian humiliation? A Kremlin success as the world wrings its hands but looks away? A destructive, bloody standoff?

The only thing that's 100 percent clear is which side we should be on.

U.S. Army Col. (ret.) Ralph Peters' latest book, "Looking For Trouble," takes readers through Georgia.

[Skyhook]

Reminds me of the crap the Russians used to pull during the Cold War.

Exactly. Feel the chill? Putin IS the iceman of this age.

[stevelyn]

You are completely wrong. South Ossetia was not one of "their's" but a part of Georgia. The unrest in SO was fomented by Putin. It would be akin to Cuban agents starting a revolt in Miami and then a full scale invasion when US troops tried to put it down.

BS. I can't see the Russian as being the bad guys in this. South Ossetia wasn't a part of anything until Stalin (a Georgian) gave autonomous territory (South Ossetia) to Georgia.

South Ossetians have never been traditionally, ethnically or historically a part of Georgia. They have been a Georgian province only by fiat of a govt that no longer exists and have expressed their desire to be separate from Georgia by their acceptance Russian services and passports and we should accept their desires.


The only thing that's 100 percent clear is which side we should be on.

We shouldn't be taking any side. We should be offering mediation in the event both sides
wish sit down and discuss matters. Otherwise we need to butt out.

[Big A]

So what if they found a U.S. Passport, It could be from someone in the Red Cross or UNICEF or some Christian missionary etc, etc, Hell, they probably bought it off ebay.

[MtBaldy]

BS. I can't see the Russian as being the bad guys in this. .


I'm not going to search it for you but Nestor is from Poland and essentially confirmed what the Col. said. This was a carefully planned and executed invasion of a sovereign natiion by Putin. Georgia was a nation trying to join the Western world and a possible ally of the US. It's doubtful now whether it will be anything but a Russian colony. Russia has abandoned the trappings of Communism but it has not abandoned it's imperialistic ambitions. Putin is the most dangerous man on earth and no friend of the United States.

[chowchow]

Captured documents



Related link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZg-6Z_AsL8

[Tiberius25]

Just disinformation. The Russians excelled at this type of thing in the Cold War and Putin has not forgotten. The Russians are trying to revive the Tsar's Empire.

This was a warning to the rest of the former satellite nations that the Bear is no longer hibernating.

[chowchow]

Looks to be the Tear Down this Wall speech of Reagan is now Built Up this Wall after almost 20 yrs .

[norm357]

Yeah, but US operators dropping their passports in a war zone isn't one of them.


Besides, let's recall who invaded whom.

U.S. Operators don't carry passports.

[NYC Drew]

U.S. Operators don't carry passports.

"US passports"... :whistling:

[Douglas in CT]

It's my understanding that Georgia entered the province and to their horror was met with stiff resistance (and routed) by Russian forces.

TRUTH!
And I thought that it was only me who was keeping track. :wavey:

[Sam Spade]

TRUTH!
And I thought that it was only me who was keeping track. :wavey:

You need to keep better track.

Georgian troops entered South Ossetia---a province of Georgia---after South Ossetians--citizens of Georgia---killed other Georgians on the other side of the provincial border---still in Georgia.

And as long as Putin is crafting tales, we might ask just who equipped and prompted that Ossetian attack on Georgian police. Qui bono?

[windplex]

Somethings to keep in mind when viewing this situation.

Putin is old school USSR style and substance. Assinating press members who dare to print non-positive reports; taking over news agancies and having the Russian govt. run them. Putin ran KGB and surely appears to be using their methods for revenge in some cases. Putin has assembled a new "camp" for young russians where they are indoctrinated and married and encouraged to procreate for the greater good of Russia. Even sent off on their wedding night on barges with numberous pup tents for each couple to procreate in -- it it celevbrated. Stark reminders of days past.

Native Russians have always been the genetic top of the USSR empire and they look down, to put it politely, on all other nationalities in the USSR/Russa.

Killing thousands of Georgians after a dozen Russian military "peace keepers" falls into place when Russians are killing a group of people they consider to be inferior to them.

Why drive well into Georgia when you are protecting SO and its primarily Russian citezens? Why take over ports, destroy hosbitals, airports and all important infrastructure when "securing the safety" of SO Russians is the "goal"?

Why kill as many Georigians as possible, well beyond the disputed SO regions, when defending SO russians is the goal?

They have an American passport. So they admit to killing an American in my book. How and when that passport came into thier possession is a good question. And yes covert operators do not carry National identification -- that works at cross purposes to being "covert".

I am less concerned with this passport and US involvement claim than I am concerned with this being merely another small move in the geopolitics chess game putin is playing. How does this set up Putin to make claims against American agression when Putin continues to assemble the old USSR?

Timing is interesting. Which candidate does putin wish would win the American presidential election? Which candidate does putin fear more? Which candidate/party does putin believe (back handedly suggest) that was behind this? Which party does putin belive this kind of story will harm in this election and thereby help the other candidate to win?

I firmly believe our enemies favor candidates they know they can either win against or at least bully. Where does putin stand on the presidential election?

This is a geopoliticaly, and perochial American, saavy thing to do on many levels on putins part.

[chowchow]

They carry M 4s alright .


"US passports"... :whistling: