Looking for LEO opinion (career)

[No Frills McGee]

I am 22 years old in college. I want to be an officer, eventually detective. My current goal is a bachelors in english, and a masters in criminology. I'm working towards the english currently. I am 5'10 190 lbs and am currently losing weight. It takes me about 11 minutes to run a mile at a steady pace without killing myself, so i have fitness work to do, i realize that. About 6 years training under a style of MMA (founded locally by an ex green-beret and gov't agent), where i was instructed on police tactics, self defense, knife fighting, gun self defense, in a military fashion. I just moved so i'm jobless but once i get some money i plan on studying BJJ, as it is offered nearby. I recently took basic pistol training and applied for my CCW. I'm not particularly crazy on shooting other than for purpose of practice and accuracy in real world practical situations. I have an expunged record of a domestic violence charge, which i pleaded guilty to. I was considering law school, but i think i better fit the qualifications of a LEO.

I posted this here because i want to know if i have any chance being an officer with that record. And it's much easier to ask online where i can be anonymous. I need some direction.

Thankyou

[Natty]

No offense dude You said that you are fat, out of shape, and have a police record...


You are the perfect candidate for the police.

[No Frills McGee]

None taken, :rofl:thick skin required!

[NYC Drew]

Yes, in about 7 years of being a model citizen. FORGET about the Masters in Criminology if you want to be a cop.

Forget about all of the crap you mentioned you have studied, and focus on keeping your life squeaky clean to counteract the DV crap.

The Army and Navy is always looking for a few dedicated men..

'Drew
Not a cop.

[boby]

That DV business will be hard to get around. I suggest lots of volunteering. See if your police department has some type of volunteer program, volunteer at a hospital, etc. There is always of course, the military.

[agentl074]

I think the "best" counter weight in your case is going to be military service of some component. This avenue will show the most IMHO.

[RonS]

Buy a copy of Johnny Cash's, "I Walk the Line". That is now your personal motto.

If you drink, stop; bars are full of stupid people and stupidity is contagious. You can't afford another issue.

Run. I hate running, I suck at running and I say run so it must be true. Your next best friend is a set of free weights. If you have to choose between fitness and MA, go work out.

Get involved in the community somehow. There are all kinds of people who need volunteers. Council on aging, meals on wheels, youth programs, a homeless shelter, work with the disabled or MRDD. Make it something you care about, it will be easier and the people you work with will notice.

If you want the MS, fine, but consider getting a minor in accounting. Follow the money is true of more than politics. The last jury I was on they used an appliance dolly to bring 4 bankers boxes of financial records into the courtroom.

Good luck.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

Not an LEO or city administrator, but I would NOT mention weapons and unarmed skills unless asked, and then VERY conservatively.

All organizations want to teach this stuff to you THEIR way, and that is all carefully limited and lawyered.

[doktarZues]

Finish college, get a job that will actually pay you. I went back and forth and considered LEO for many years, never took the plunge, really feel like it was a phase that I've grown out of (for the best). I have two LEOs in my immediate family and when the hoorah is over with it's just a thankless job with crappy pay. That's a brazen statement, but my honest opinion and advice.

[South Fla]

I want to be an officer, eventually detective.

First thing, turn off the television.

I have an expunged record of a domestic violence charge, which i pleaded guilty to. I was considering law school, but i think i better fit the qualifications of a LEO.

That is going to be very tough to get over. Most places ask you if you have ever been arrested, then they worry about the outcome later. Their thinking is that you had to do something to get clicked up for in the first place. Because most cops just don't lock people up for no reason at all and that you pled guilty to it makes it look that much worse. Expunged or not, you were jailed and in court you pled guilty. It looks like you might be better suited for a lawyer.

About 6 years training under a style of MMA (founded locally by an ex green-beret and gov't agent), where i was instructed on police tactics, self defense, knife fighting, gun self defense, in a military fashion.

Fluff and frill. Unless it is from the military or a LEO academy or accredited training, it is just a resume filler.

I tell you these things because after 25 years on the street these days there are 100 people behind you looking for that same job that have squeaky clean arrest records, squeaky clean military records, Masters Degrees and can run an 8 minute mile.

But, I wish you luck.

[Andy W]

With your arrest record, if you really want to be involved in criminal justice, you should probably go to law school and become an assistant DA.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

This question is often asked in here, and a common answer is to join the military and get into the MP's. If you can do that and stay clean, I suspect that would be the route to go. TIt may count later that the DV charge was at a young age.

[No Frills McGee]

First thing, turn off the television.

I don't have TV :rofl:

I was young(er). My dad has history of repeat DV. Rest of my family were out of town because my sister was in the hospital. He came at me and i defended myself with a single punch, he fell. I only used what was neccesary, he's a very big guy, got atleast a foot on me. He called the cops, but not with the intent to have me arrested, no one was hurt. Cops arrested me, in ohio they have to arrest someone and charge them, nomatter what, when it comes to a DV call. I pleaded guilty because i was young, stupid, and scared of what would happen if i actually tried to defend myself, and how much it'd cost in court fee. I took responsibility. The parole officer expunged it with 12 hours of community service after my dad came in and explained that he was the aggressor. In ohio expungement cannot be used against you anymore, and you can treat it as if it never happened. Therefore, i can say i have never been arrested if questioned, and i do, it is not lying in my opinion.

I just wanted to get a feel for the opinions of current LEO as to whether or not i'd be better off doing something else.

I have two LEOs in my immediate family and when the hoorah is over with it's just a thankless job with crappy pay.

That has been my fear.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

I don't have TV :rofl:

I was young(er). My dad has history of repeat DV. Rest of my family were out of town because my sister was in the hospital. He came at me and i defended myself with a single punch, he fell. I only used what was neccesary, he's a very big guy, got atleast a foot on me. He called the cops, but not with the intent to have me arrested, no one was hurt. Cops arrested me, in ohio they have to arrest someone and charge them, nomatter what, when it comes to a DV call. I pleaded guilty because i was young, stupid, and scared of what would happen if i actually tried to defend myself, and how much it'd cost in court fee. I took responsibility. The parole officer expunged it with 12 hours of community service after my dad came in and explained that he was the aggressor. In ohio expungement cannot be used against you anymore, and you can treat it as if it never happened. Therefore, i can say i have never been arrested if questioned, and i do, it is not lying in my opinion.

I just wanted to get a feel for the opinions of current LEO as to whether or not i'd be better off doing something else.



That has been my fear.

I hope you are right, but opinions vary. A relative got a DUI, no accident, no one hurt, expunged by judge after community service. He was denied a job with Department of Justice (he's an attorney) . Expunged may not mean expunged. Get some VERY expert advice on this.

[PAGunner]

Yes, in about 7 years of being a model citizen. FORGET about the Masters in Criminology if you want to be a cop.

Forget about all of the crap you mentioned you have studied, and focus on keeping your life squeaky clean to counteract the DV crap.

The Army and Navy is always looking for a few dedicated men..

'Drew
Not a cop.

+1, I will add that with a DOMESTIC VIOLENCE arrest, there are no garantees. PDs don't give two squats about it being expunged, the fact you were arrested for it will hurt, but certainly don't lie, or you will never be an LEO. You have a chance, but have a back up plan and go forward with your back up plan, get yourself into shape, and in about 4-5 years, start taking civil service police tests. I have LEO friends and friends who didn't get into LEO because of similar circumstances, but all of them weren't persistent in demonstrating good moral character as an adult.

PAGunner
Not a cop, MS2 (2nd year med student)

[agentl074]

I hope you are right, but opinions vary. A relative got a DUI, no accident, no one hurt, expunged by judge after community service. He was denied a job with Department of Justice (he's an attorney) . Expunged may not mean expunged. Get some VERY expert advice on this.


Even juvi records - which are sopposidly sealed - are no barrier to the Federal Govt. Try getting a clearance with a juvi record - not gonna happen. Expungement means didly (still available for LEA's) an aquital is the only sure thing.

[dave_pro2a]

He came at me and i defended myself with a single punch, he fell. I only used what was neccesary, he's a very big guy, got atleast a foot on me. He called the cops, but not with the intent to have me arrested, no one was hurt. Cops arrested me, in ohio they have to arrest someone and charge them, nomatter what, when it comes to a DV call. I pleaded guilty because i was young, stupid, and scared of what would happen if i actually tried to defend myself, and how much it'd cost in court fee.

To the OP, re-read your above post and think real hard about which side you want to be on.

[krl45]

You gotta get a pardon. Then It doesn't count any more. Do you know the Governor of Ohio?

[Fumble]

Therefore, i can say i have never been arrested if questioned, and i do, it is not lying in my opinion.Wrong. You were arrested. Your "opinion" on if it’s a lie or not doesn't matter. You just explained the situation perfectly. If you have documentation that backs up your assertions then the incident really won't matter. But if you lie about the original arrest (and a lie of omission is still a lie) you can kiss any chance of being a cop good by if the lie is discovered - and believe me it will be.

When I was about your age I was arrested for armed robbery. When ever I am asked the question, I answer (truthfully) yes. Then I explain and everyone laughs and we move on. That is what you need to do. Be truthful, tell the story and move on. I'm guessing the full story isn't funny but interview boards will chuckle if you still tell it right.

[sfguard]

Do yourself a favor and go to law school. Being a cop isn't all that. In fact it is kinda like a empty hole that once you get in you have a very hard time getting out of it. I got out of it and will probably end up back into it again with my daughter starting school before long. (that is another story) The pay in most cases is horrible. I know alot of officers that also qualify for food stamps and so on.

If your going to spend that much time in school anyway make it for something that will at least enable you to pay back your student loans.

[agentl074]

:patriot:Do yourself a favor and go to law school. Being a cop isn't all that. In fact it is kinda like a empty hole that once you get in you have a very hard time getting out of it. I got out of it and will probably end up back into it again with my daughter starting school before long. (that is another story) The pay in most cases is horrible. I know alot of officers that also qualify for food stamps and so on.

If your going to spend that much time in school anyway make it for something that will at least enable you to pay back your student loans.

Well said brother :cool: nice to see another USAF SF vet here :patriot:

[andybob]

Forget about all of the crap you mentioned you have studied, and focus on keeping your life squeaky clean to counteract the DV crap.

'Drew
Not a cop.

What 'Drew said. Also, for most LEO jobs Criminal Justice and things aren't even required. For a loooong time I have wanted to be a New York State Trooper and I have to wait a few more years until they have the test again. With your record the best thing for you to do is to stay clean and work on test scores. My 2nd cousin is a retired State Trooper and he said that is one of the most important things. Take as many police tests as you can, even if they are for a different county or agency where you live or would like to work. The biggest thing is experience with the test, its just like anything, the more you do it the better off you will be.

For the Troopers you learn everything in the academy. Every Trooper and recruiter I have talked to said to major in something that you have always wanted to do. For me I am going to trade school to be a Mechanic, that way if I can't be a Trooper for whatever reason I have a back up plan.

Anyways, good luck.


-Andybob

[PAGunner]

When I was about your age I was arrested for armed robbery.

:shocked:

[Santa CruZin]

The real test of your DV will be the application/background/polygraph process.

If this is your dream, take a shot at it.

[geminicricket]

Start applying as soon as you get the minimum college requirements. It's no crime to be passed over.

[WI_DeerHunter13]

Do yourself a favor and go to law school. Being a cop isn't all that. In fact it is kinda like a empty hole that once you get in you have a very hard time getting out of it. I got out of it and will probably end up back into it again with my daughter starting school before long. (that is another story) The pay in most cases is horrible. I know alot of officers that also qualify for food stamps and so on.

If your going to spend that much time in school anyway make it for something that will at least enable you to pay back your student loans.

I've said it in other threads, but I'm going to repeat it here: do NOT go to law school with unrealistic ideas of what the legal profession is like. Forget everything that you see on TV because that's not how the legal field operates.

Law school also isn't a magic cure to rectify a worthless degree in English, history, poli sci, etc. The legal market is saturated and the majority of lawyers don't have high starting salaries. Toss onto that six figures worth of debt and you'll find one of the main reasons lawyers tend to be miserable. I personally know one lawyer that makes ~$25,000/yr and has loans of ~1,000/mo. Her parents have to help her pay her rent. It used to be that at least going to a top 14 school gave you a good chance of landing a well-paying job, but that's not even the case anymore with the current economy. At least one major firm has already announced heavy layoffs of attorneys, almost all of whom went to elite schools.

Another thing: even an expunged conviction will severely hamper your ability to get into the legal field. Law schools specifically ask about prior convictions on their applications, including juvenile and expunged convictions. You will have to explain the situation and the guilty plea if you apply. Admission to a state bar will be even harder and expunged convictions are usually still considered. The background checks to become an LEO are pretty extensive, but going the legal route isn't going to get your around any of those same questions.

[PAGunner]

I've said it in other threads, but I'm going to repeat it here: do NOT go to law school with unrealistic ideas of what the legal profession is like. Forget everything that you see on TV because that's not how the legal field operates.

Law school also isn't a magic cure to rectify a worthless degree in English, history, poli sci, etc. The legal market is saturated and the majority of lawyers don't have high starting salaries. Toss onto that six figures worth of debt and you'll find one of the main reasons lawyers tend to be miserable. I personally know one lawyer that makes ~$25,000/yr and has loans of ~1,000/mo. Her parents have to help her pay her rent. It used to be that at least going to a top 14 school gave you a good chance of landing a well-paying job, but that's not even the case anymore with the current economy. At least one major firm has already announced heavy layoffs of attorneys, almost all of whom went to elite schools.

Another thing: even an expunged conviction will severely hamper your ability to get into the legal field. Law schools specifically ask about prior convictions on their applications, including juvenile and expunged convictions. You will have to explain the situation and the guilty plea if you apply. Admission to a state bar will be even harder and expunged convictions are usually still considered. The background checks to become an LEO are pretty extensive, but going the legal route isn't going to get your around any of those same questions.

Ouch, the harsh truth, no sugar coating here.

[WI_DeerHunter13]

Ouch, the harsh truth, no sugar coating here.

:rofl: Yeah, that was a bit harsh. I'd probably make a terrible guidance counselor. In all seriousness, I'm not trying to crush the OP's dreams, but to get him to research the field. Even with a DV conviction (misdemeanor?), it's likely not enough to prevent him from becoming a lawyer if he really wants it. The same goes for an LEO job. My point was more to set up some realistic expectations for whatever he decides to do.

Going to law school is a major life decision and one that's taken too lightly by most people. It's almost scary how many people commit to the financial equivalent of buying a house without even researching the field. There are a lot of unhappy lawyers out there and a lack of realistic expectations is the main cause of it, IMHO.

[Natty]

Once you get married and have kids, every mans job is to provide for his family.

Most states, the police make such little money, that if you have kids and a wife who does not work you are eligible for welfare.

Many young police still live at home with their parents.

Many careers make lots more money than police. Just to mention one, dump truck drivers make way more than cops.

Go for the money.

[dave_pro2a]

Another thing: even an expunged conviction will severely hamper your ability to get into the legal field. Law schools specifically ask about prior convictions on their applications, including juvenile and expunged convictions.
Can you cite that?

Expunged, in some states, literally means 'the conviction is deemed to have never occured.' You can't answer "Yes" about a conviction that never occured.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

Can you cite that?

Expunged, in some states, literally means 'the conviction is deemed to have never occured.' You can't answer "Yes" about a conviction that never occured.

What it means is that it WILL show up on a background check and you will lose because you lied on the application. Not everybody is playing with the same rulebook. Maybe you could file suit and win in ten years.

[dave_pro2a]

Law schools specifically ask about prior convictions on their applications, including juvenile and expunged convictions.
http://www.law.washington.edu/admissions/Forms/JDApp.pdf
"Have you ever, either as an adult or a juvenile, been convicted of a crime other than minor traffic violations? This should include matters that have been expunged or been subject to a diversionary program. Are there any criminal charges pending or expected to be brought against you?"

The above law school application question seems standard.

Depending on state law where convictions might have occured:
If your conviction is expunged, you can answer no.
If your juvenile conviction has been properly taken care of, you can answer no.

I didn't even see them ask about arrests.

Rememeber, this is law school we're talking about ;) Maybe they are specially exempt from the law?

[LanceOregon]

If the domestic violence conviction was just a misdemeanor, then I think it would be more easily overlooked. If it was instead a felony conviction, then I think that you have a higher hurtle to overcome.

My advice: can your English degree and instead learn how to speak Spanish. The Border Patrol is currently hiring. And Federal employees get very decent benefits.

.

[No Frills McGee]

Here's my chance to shine! This whole expungement argument is case by case. Each state has different laws. Some recognize it, some do not. Some do not even offer it, juvenile or adult, sealed or expunged. Where i live, they recognize expungement/sealed, and it cannot be used against you. Generally, if something is expunged, it is believed to of been erased like it never occurred. Sealed means it is not destroyed, but it is put in another area/database that only very few can see. Neither would show up on a federal background check. The federal government recognizes expungement/sealed records, but some states do not. Federal law is broad, and state/local narrow it within its confinement.

From revised code (in ohio)

(B) In any application for employment, license, or other right or privilege, any appearance as a witness, or any other inquiry, except as provided in division (E) of section 2953.32 and in section 3319.292 of the Revised Code, a person may be questioned only with respect to convictions not sealed, bail forfeitures not expunged under section 2953.42 of the Revised Code as it existed prior to June 29, 1988, and bail forfeitures not sealed, unless the question bears a direct and substantial relationship to the position for which the person is being considered.

Since expunged/sealed records cannot be used against you in OHIO, my expunged DV record would not be a disqualifying factor, therefore it bears no relationship to an application, and i can answer "no" to ever being arrested or pleading guilty, and would not be lying.

If you think i am wrong, and that i would be lying, read this:

ORC 2953.32 Sealing of conviction record or bail forfeiture record

(F) of this section, all index references to the case deleted and, in the case of bail forfeitures, shall dismiss the charges in the case. The proceedings in the case shall be considered not to have occurred and the conviction or bail forfeiture of the person who is the subject of the proceedings shall be sealed

I rest my case. Denny Crane.

[dave_pro2a]

Here's my chance to shine! This whole expungement argument is case by case. Each state has different laws. Some recognize it, some do not. Some do not even offer it, juvenile or adult, sealed or expunged. Where i live, they recognize expungement/sealed, and it cannot be used against you. Generally, if something is expunged, it is believed to of been erased like it never occurred. Sealed means it is not destroyed, but it is put in another area/database that only very few can see. Neither would show up on a federal background check. The federal government recognizes expungement/sealed records, but some states do not. Federal law is broad, and state/local narrow it within its confinement.

From revised code (in ohio)



Since expunged/sealed records cannot be used against you in OHIO, my expunged DV record would not be a disqualifying factor, therefore it bears no relationship to an application, and i can answer "no" to ever being arrested or pleading guilty, and would not be lying.

If you think i am wrong, and that i would be lying, read this:

ORC 2953.32 Sealing of conviction record or bail forfeiture record



I rest my case. Denny Crane.

Exactly what I said, but with 80% more words :tongueout:

[PAGunner]

If the domestic violence conviction was just a misdemeanor, then I think it would be more easily overlooked.

Sadly, with LEO jobs, domestic violence is NEVER EVER overlooked, even as a misdeamor. It is a very big deal, its up there with a drug conviction, its that bad. I say sadly because sometimes people get shafted with domestic violence situations, and sometimes people deserve what they get. The problem is, its a huge red flag, no matter what really went down for LEOs. They would rather toss the application in the garbage because there are 10 more guys with sqeaky clean records, who scored just as well on the test and put up the same numbers on the physical tests that are willing to do the job. LEAs are the choosers, applicants are the beggers. LEAs don't want bad publicity by having an LEO getting involved with a future domestic violence situation.

[No Frills McGee]

Exactly what I said, but with 80% more words :tongueout:

Yeah but i gave evidence,.. skeptics won't believe a thing until it's shoved down their throat.

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.billionswithzeroknowledge.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/WindowsLiveWriter/CorporateandCommunityLeadership_A1D/insp_captkirk%255B5%255D.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHJ8ESQd4BTa1vXr9cmVE0VCLrvzQ

[PAGunner]

Since expunged/sealed records cannot be used against you in OHIO, my expunged DV record would not be a disqualifying factor, therefore it bears no relationship to an application, and i can answer "no" to ever being arrested or pleading guilty, and would not be lying.

I hope you get in with an LEA somewhere, I'm sure your a good guy, but it can and will be used against you, they will find out. Law Enforcement is exempt from stuff like that, which is why you can get polygraphed, trust me on this one. Don't lie, because if you do, it will likely stop you from getting in any LEA, since I'm sure they will ask about prior applications to departments and what the outcome is, they will research it, if it is lying, it will not look good for you.

[Natty]

In some states a DV conviction means you cannot own a gun anymore.

Do you own a gun? Have they ever told you that you cant have a gun?

[No Frills McGee]

Natty/pagunner


The federal government recognizes expungement/sealed records

Yes i can and have bought a firearm. Expunged stuff doesn't come up on NICS ^

pagunner i don't see how an application for LEO would be exempt from the law. In application for employment in ohio, a record that doesn't technically exist (expunged/sealed) can't be used against you, therefore it has to bearing to your application. It would only hurt you to check that "yes" box in an application. If you don't agree with that, people have been known to check the yes box with an explanation and expungement papers provided, but it really makes no difference IMO. In the end it has no bearing, in my state, lawfully. I could take the employer to court if they denied me on those grounds.

[DennisP]

Even if the conviction has been expunged it still happened. As a Police Supervisor that has done hiring before, let me give you my two cents. If you applied with my agency and on the application and Background packet you left off the DV conviction. Our program support person (clerical person that really does more work then anybody else IMHO) will run your name and that arrest and conviction comes up (and it will); then you will not be called in for the PT test. Will not happen, now if you mark yes and then explain it all away( i.e. I was young, Dad was drunk etc, etc) then it may be able to be over looked. If you do not mention it in advance then it will sink you, regardless of your understanding of the law.

Good Luck
Dennis P.

[NYC Drew]

...In application for employment in ohio, a record that doesn't technically exist (expunged/sealed) can't be used against you, therefore it has to bearing to your application. It would only hurt you to check that "yes" box in an application. If you don't agree with that, people have been known to check the yes box with an explanation and expungement papers provided, but it really makes no difference IMO. In the end it has no bearing, in my state, lawfully. I could take the employer to court if they denied me on those grounds.

So let's see if I got this straight...

1. You really don't know anything, and everything you have posted so far substantiates this.

2. You are well trained in everything, and about to embark on creating a CV/resume to end all resumes - but you still don't know anything.

3. Why are you here, posting for advice, if you think you know everything?

You sound like me 18yrs ago. Smart, but dumb to the world.

'Drew

[boby]

Do you not realize you are applying with a law enforcement agency? These people don't have time to play games and I assure you they wont. The key to the application process is TELLING THE TRUTH.

One of the most important traits of an LEO is integrity. You don't really demonstrate integrity when you think "Well technically that record doesn't matter ill just check no."

I think you need some time to mature before you apply. If you apply now and they see your immaturity (or if you lie) you may screw yourself out of a job at that department for good.

[NYC Drew]

Do you not realize you are applying with a law enforcement agency? These people don't have time to play games and I assure you they wont. The key to the application process is TELLING THE TRUTH.

One of the most important traits of an LEO is integrity. You don't really demonstrate integrity when you think "Well technically that record doesn't matter ill just check no."

I think you need some time to mature before you apply. If you apply now and they see your immaturity (or if you lie) you may screw yourself out of a job at that department for good.


Not just that dept. When his app gets bounced because he lied, what do you think happens when they ask him:

Have you ever applied, or do you have any pending applications with any other depts?

:)

'Drew

[tbhracing]

First- I am not a LEO, but have an extensive experience in public safety and hiring practices.

Next and very important- I would first figure out where you want to live and work and then focus on the hiring needs and requirements of that agency or area.

Next- Do everything you can to clean up your background. This includes your credit report, work histroy and referances. As mentioned, contact an expert regarding the DV charge. I have seen very good people who have made a mistake (DUI) in their lives get hired on to both police and fire jobs.

Next- Look into jobs out here in California and Nevada. They are screaming for good decent people. Here is a link for you- POST listing of jobs. (http://http://www.post.ca.gov/Hiring/Job_Opportunities/)

Lastly- I would get a two year plan out lined. I would like to recommend a FREE site to you- www.eatstress.com. It is geared for the Entry Level Firefighter, but their is lots of LE stuff there. Hope it helps you out.

[WI_DeerHunter13]

So let's see if I got this straight...

1. You really don't know anything, and everything you have posted so far substantiates this.

2. You are well trained in everything, and about to embark on creating a CV/resume to end all resumes - but you still don't know anything.

3. Why are you here, posting for advice, if you think you know everything?

You sound like me 18yrs ago. Smart, but dumb to the world.

'Drew

+1 on that one. For a guy that asked for help, you sure seem to have all of the answers.

Since the question of "proof" has been raised by others, I'm just going to post question #21 on the application to take the WI bar exam:

Have you ever been arrested for, charged with, issued a citation for, or served probation for criminal charges, civil law violations, or local ordinance violations?

NOTE: You must disclose each instance however adjudicated, whether or not the charge and the plea or conviction differ, whether arrest, judgment, conviction, or sentence has been withheld or expunged, or the record sealed. Include instances where you ever paid restitution or served probation in lieu of being arrested, charged, convicted, or entering a plea (whether a plea of guilty or no contest). You may omit parking violations, but must include all other tickets, including those for moving violations.

Since you already seem to have all of the answers, though, you're free to research the other jurisdictions as you see fit. I suspect that you'll find it to be a pretty standard question. You may also want to reread the statute you cited there, Matlock - there's an unless clause that you're not reading carefully enough...

[dave_pro2a]

Even if the conviction has been expunged it still happened. As a Police Supervisor


The proceedings in the case shall be considered not to have occurred

Reconcile that.

[dave_pro2a]

The key to the application process is TELLING THE TRUTH.

So you can get a job that requires lying. :rofl: Ahh the irony.

[NYC Drew]

Reconcile that.

It's quite simple.


Expungement does not necessarily mean when you were printed, or when your prints were sent to the national database, THAT record disappears. In fact, it does not disappear.

LE depts want to know if you've ever been arrested and/or convicted, ever. Getting the slate wiped clean for legal purposes does not mean crap never happened to you (or me). And that's what they want to know - did you ever get into crap?

'Drew

[NYC Drew]

So you can get a job that requires lying. :rofl: Ahh the irony.

Just like

Doctors, nurses, airplane pilots, congressmen, governors, EMT/EMS, teachers,


you name it, at some point in your career, you will have to knowingly and intentionally lie to a client.

Some occupations more so than others. Every prostitute I've ever been with has loved me for a long time, and it's oh so big.

'Drew

[PAGunner]

It's quite simple.


Expungement does not necessarily mean when you were printed, or when your prints were sent to the national database, THAT record disappears. In fact, it does not disappear.

LE depts want to know if you've ever been arrested and/or convicted, ever. Getting the slate wiped clean for legal purposes does not mean crap never happened to you (or me). And that's what they want to know - did you ever get into crap?

'Drew

Not only do they want to know, they have the right to know, legally, as I told OP, they are exempted from whatever statue he is citing.

OP, if you don't believe us, go post this question down in the Cop Talk forum, or have a moderator move it there, lets see what they telll you. No one wants to see you screw yourself out of a position. DV is a big deal to PDs, but LYING is a bigger deal, and as others have said, they will find out. You may or may not be able to overcome the DV, I'm not a cop nor do I hire cops, it might depend on the department, but I do know a lot of cops, and I do know some people who wanted to be cops but shot themselves in the foot (not a pun on my avatar either, ha ha) cause they weren't 100% truthful.

[No Frills McGee]

You may also want to reread the statute you cited there, Matlock - there's an unless clause that you're not reading carefully enough...

You may want to reread my post

unless the question bears a direct and substantial relationship to the position for which the person is being considered.

Since expunged/sealed records cannot be used against you in OHIO, my expunged DV record would not be a disqualifying factor, therefore it bears no relationship to an application, and i can answer "no" to ever being arrested or pleading guilty, and would not be lying. If you cannot understand that logic, i'm sorry. If i ever want to apply in wisconsin, i will refer back to your post. Those saying i know it all and am immature.. if you can't take it, don't dish it. If i'm bitten, i bite back.

they are exempted from whatever statue he is citing.

I'm trying to find information substantiating that atm. Remember.. this is ohio.

[PAGunner]

I'm trying to find information substantiating that atm. Remember.. this is ohio.

I'm sure one of the cops down on the cop talk forum here on GT will be able to cite you something.

[No Frills McGee]

I'm sure one of the cops down on the cop talk forum here on GT will be able to cite you something.

At the moment it is tough because most the information on the internet is outdated. The law that states expungement cannot be used against you just passed last week, so ohio is busy updating all their ****. Cops/lawyers are trying to keep up with the changes. So i can't get an answer yet.

I wanted to see what everyone on here had to say from different states, i'm not trying to argue with everyone and throw their help back in their face, just stating what i know as facts, with a little bit of humor.

[NYC Drew]

At the moment it is tough because most the information on the internet is outdated. The law that states expungement cannot be used against you just passed last week, so ohio is busy updating all their ****. Cops/lawyers are trying to keep up with the changes. So i can't get an answer yet.

I wanted to see what everyone on here had to say from different states, i'm not trying to argue with everyone and throw their help back in their face, just stating what i know as facts, with a little bit of humor.


ok.

Help me out here. What does the law, in your state say about acts prior to passage of the law?

'Drew

[No Frills McGee]

ok.

Help me out here. What does the law, in your state say about acts prior to passage of the law?

'Drew

Well, it was mainly changed for the purpose of CCW applications. People were applying for CCW and being denied on grounds of expunged records, by the sheriff. Which is crazy. It didn't make sense that the federal government recognized expungement, and ohio didn't. The same people able to legally purchase firearms, were denied their CCW. Now the questions on the application are modified. Basically, only very few people in ohio could see those sealed/expunged records, and we are taught to treat it as if it never happened, in Ohio. Just to be safe, i called the sheriff before i applied and he told me to check "no" on the question asking if i had ever pleaded guilty or been arrested for DV. At first he told me to check yes, sharing your opinions. Then i explained it to him, and i changed his mind, stating " Oh!, we can't see those records anyway"

I think some other states are very different when it comes to that, and that is why it's so hard for some of you to hear.

I don't know if that's what you were asking.

[NYC Drew]

I am asking if the law is applied retroactively.

'Drew

[No Frills McGee]

Oh, you meant prior convictions. Wasn't sure what you meant by acts since we're talking about law.

Yes, it is applied in that way. SB 184.

[1811guy2]

Martial arts, weapons skills, physical fitness do not necessarily make a good cop. You will learn the tactics, firerams and physical fitness in the academy and do it their way. Those are all administrative pass/fail exercises.

If the hiring board does not like your attitude and you as a person, you won't get the job. They are looking for someone who respects authority, who listens, and who remembers. As an upper level manager in LE, I look for common sense, good writing skills, good people skills, and ability to reason and solve problems effectively.

As far as the record is concerned, as long as the lawyers, polygraphers and psychologists say yes, then it is not a problem. Keep in mind that you will always be under the magnifying glass for that though.

Get your degree, make sure you are financially stable, and go for it. The worst they can do is say no.

[boby]

Go ahead and lie. Even if they couldn't see the record (as you seem to think), they are going to find out when your background investigator starts asking around about you. THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!

[andybob]

Martial arts, weapons skills, physical fitness do not necessarily make a good cop. You will learn the tactics, firerams and physical fitness in the academy and do it their way. Those are all administrative pass/fail exercises.

:thumbsup:

[revel8]

do you really want to be a cop ? law enforcement has the highest divorce and suicide rate in the country. are you prepared to live under a microscope?

and i know, because my father was one. so i can say that. he's still alive thankfully. but divorced, and he lives alone. i feel really bad for him.

[nikerret]

You have some misconceptions.

First, whether or not they CAN look at your record is irrelevant. When you fill out the application you will sign over any rights to your privacy as a term of getting your application past the first step.

Second, the less you "train" now, the better. You should strive for good physical fitness, but completely pass on the "tactical maneuvers". This includes firearms, defensive tactics, and your abilities with a stick and a spray can.
The Academy will teach you how they want it done. This is how you will do it. The more you have to unlearn the harder it is. Before I went to the Academy I had two different LE Firearms instructors evaluate me and instruct me. Both were excellent shots and excellent teachers. Most of the fundamentals are the same, but every instructor has their way and style. At the Academy the instructor wants to teach you. They are there to do just that and will take great pride in your abilities as they evolve. If you do not do it their way you may receive extra "unwanted" attention.

When you get to the Academy is when you want to shine. That's where you will receive recognition that will benefit you later in your career.

When you get back to your Agency they will probably teach you again. Having to unlearn and relearn is horrible. Unless the Agency you get hired on has their own Academy you will have to unlearn a lot of what is taught at the Academy because of policy, local Ordinances, nuances that drive certain bosses crazy.

Third, if you had enough doubt to bring it up on here you have enough doubt inside to fail a polygraph. A poly is what you make it. They are highly stressful, but knowing you will fail going in is not the way to do it.

I was much like you in that I can read something and justify it to mean whatever I need it to. I was looking through the laws at each word trying to find a way to convince myself that I wouldn't "lie", but could still leave things out.
When I took the polygraph I walked in the door with what I wanted to be the truth, and believed I could justify using slightly twisted logic.
I ended up getting hired because the polygrapher was good, and I decided I really wanted this job. I used him like a therapist. I told him everything about anything I imagined could be relevant with any stretch of the imagination. He knows more about me that I do.

LEO's testimony can take people's property, freedom, and in some States, their lives. Your integrity is all you have. We all have doubts and fears about what our past can do to our future. I have found that telling everything about everything will typically get easier and you will feel better about it.

Fourth, you don't know anything. When you are in an interview you are the guy who has drive, but knows how ignorant you are. In your posts in this thread you come across as being very cocky. You will not get far in any interviews. At most you might say you have researched and are familiar with subjects/objects related to LE. You do not have a working knowledge, but you are ready and willing to LEARN.

.......

As far as money goes, that varies greatly from agency to agency. In KS I know cops who started out making $7/hr and cops who make $20/hr. There is a lot of overtime. The job is highly stressful in many respects, but when it is rewarding it is unlike anything most people can imagine.

If you have any specific questions for me about anything LE, college, or just in general feel free to PM me. I'm 22 and I've only been a cop a short while. You and I seem to posses many of the same traits; mostly the less desirable ones.

You either find a job you love or a job that makes you rich; very few people get to do both.




I hope some of this is helpful.

[andybob]

You have some misconceptions.

First, whether or not they CAN look at your record is irrelevant. When you fill out the application you will sign over any rights to your privacy as a term of getting your application past the first step.

Second, the less you "train" now, the better. You should strive for good physical fitness, but completely pass on the "tactical maneuvers". This includes firearms, defensive tactics, and your abilities with a stick and a spray can.
The Academy will teach you how they want it done. This is how you will do it. The more you have to unlearn the harder it is. Before I went to the Academy I had two different LE Firearms instructors evaluate me and instruct me. Both were excellent shots and excellent teachers. Most of the fundamentals are the same, but every instructor has their way and style. At the Academy the instructor wants to teach you. They are there to do just that and will take great pride in your abilities as they evolve. If you do not do it their way you may receive extra "unwanted" attention.

When you get to the Academy is when you want to shine. That's where you will receive recognition that will benefit you later in your career.

When you get back to your Agency they will probably teach you again. Having to unlearn and relearn is horrible. Unless the Agency you get hired on has their own Academy you will have to unlearn a lot of what is taught at the Academy because of policy, local Ordinances, nuances that drive certain bosses crazy.

Third, if you had enough doubt to bring it up on here you have enough doubt inside to fail a polygraph. A poly is what you make it. They are highly stressful, but knowing you will fail going in is not the way to do it.

I was much like you in that I can read something and justify it to mean whatever I need it to. I was looking through the laws at each word trying to find a way to convince myself that I wouldn't "lie", but could still leave things out.
When I took the polygraph I walked in the door with what I wanted to be the truth, and believed I could justify using slightly twisted logic.
I ended up getting hired because the polygrapher was good, and I decided I really wanted this job. I used him like a therapist. I told him everything about anything I imagined could be relevant with any stretch of the imagination. He knows more about me that I do.

LEO's testimony can take people's property, freedom, and in some States, their lives. Your integrity is all you have. We all have doubts and fears about what our past can do to our future. I have found that telling everything about everything will typically get easier and you will feel better about it.

Fourth, you don't know anything. When you are in an interview you are the guy who has drive, but knows how ignorant you are. In your posts in this thread you come across as being very cocky. You will not get far in any interviews. At most you might say you have researched and are familiar with subjects/objects related to LE. You do not have a working knowledge, but you are ready and willing to LEARN.

.......

As far as money goes, that varies greatly from agency to agency. In KS I know cops who started out making $7/hr and cops who make $20/hr. There is a lot of overtime. The job is highly stressful in many respects, but when it is rewarding it is unlike anything most people can imagine.

If you have any specific questions for me about anything LE, college, or just in general feel free to PM me. I'm 22 and I've only been a cop a short while. You and I seem to posses many of the same traits; mostly the less desirable ones.

You either find a job you love or a job that makes you rich; very few people get to do both.




I hope some of this is helpful.

Good read and a helpful post.


Andybob

[WI_DeerHunter13]

Those saying i know it all and am immature.. if you can't take it, don't dish it. If i'm bitten, i bite back.

Are you twelve years old? You asked a question on a public forum, people much wiser than you have answered, and you reply back with "If i'm bitten, i bite back." I can guarantee that no one here on GT is out to "bite" you; we don't know you. Most of us are also too busy to get into a pissing contest with you. Convincing the members of GT that you don't have to disclose your conviction has absolutely no correlation to the real world.

Whatever profession you do choose to pursue, you may wish to reevaluate your outlook on life. I suspect that your current predicament had a lot to do with your attitude.

[H&K .45 AUTO]

I was going to read through this entire thread before responding but, decided against that approach. Instead, I will just give my opinion and if it's already been addressed... Ignore it.

First, I am an LEO and have been for right at about 7 years now. I don't know how things work in your state but here... I don't think you would have any hope of getting hired (Definately not at my current agency). I don't say this to be rude, or offensive... It's simply fact.

When a person applies to work at my agency, we have a background packet that is sometimes refferred to as "War and Peace" because of how thick the packet is. Basically, the applicant is to disclose EVERY detail of their lives to include all jobs, spouses, residences, neighbors, ARRESTS (not just convictions), injuries, traffic tickets (whether found guilty or not), drug use, education, military service... You name it.

Before being hired, the applicant will go through all types of testing, oral boards, interviews etc. But, the places I see the OP being washed out are the background investigation, and the CVSA (similar to a polygraph).

The fact is that my current agency will send an investigator out to talk with current, and former co-workers, supervisors, classmates, neighbors, etc. and they will ask all sorts of things about you. One of the best tactics they use is to first contact the folks you listed on the application (and likey informed that they might be contacted) and ask those people for names and numbers of other people who know you or might have worked with you. This process discloses a lot of things that potential applicants try to hide and is the biggest source of cause to wash out an applicant from the hiring process from what I have seen.

Next, the CVSA. Ahhhh... The folks who claim to be able to beat this test amuse me. The fact is that you MIGHT be able to pass this test without a problem, but I'd bet money that you can't. Even in the event that you somehow manage to get through it, there's always the interview with a shrink/written psych test, etc. My point being that you have a lot of hurdles to overcome.

In the event that you do get hired, please keep in mind... A career is a long time to keep a dirty secret. Especially from your buddies whom you trust your life to. It is not uncommon for a group of cops (off-duty of course) to be drinking with one another and telling stories about their pre-law enforcement days. If you slip up one time and tell that story of being arrested for DV to a fellow officer (or even a girlfriend who later gets mad and is smart enough to know it would screw things up for you), and word gets back to your admin staff... Chances are you will be out of a job.

Just some food for thought. Oh, and also.... Detective work isn't what it's cracked up to be. I just got back to patrol from investigations and can tell you that it was a lot of desk time, travel and typing. No real excitement to be had there IMHO. Good luck to you.

[Squaw Man Wolfer]

One more case history.

A relative of mine had a shoplifting charge as a teenager. He pled guilty, did community service, etc. CONVICTION WAS EXPUNGED.

Years later, he finished law school, applied to Dept of Justice for job, and was DENIED because of susposedly EXPUNGED conviction. I would guess that the govt ALWAYS gets the info, most others (including law schools) probably won't.

[PAGunner]

Next, the CVSA. Ahhhh... The folks who claim to be able to beat this test amuse me. The fact is that you MIGHT be able to pass this test without a problem, but I'd bet money that you can't. Even in the event that you somehow manage to get through it, there's always the interview with a shrink/written psych test, etc. My point being that you have a lot of hurdles to overcome.

First off, excellent post, I'm glad an LEO finally responded to OP, since he doesn't believe us fellow GTers that are telling him he will need to disclose and it is going to hurt him a lot, good guy or not.

I do have an issue with you saying those CVSA things are it when it comes to detecting "deception". I think the entire polygraph/CVSA thing is entirely junk science, that doesn't really have a place in LEO (I know, coming from an outsider). Lets say its accurate 90% of the time (and I think thats high), what about the 10% of the time it is wrong? Many false positives and false negatives in there. I'd hate to think that many agencies rely extensively on these instruments, I would think the actual background investigation is a much better way to go about determining who is eligible for employment or not.

I know this is one man's opinion on the topic and albeit, someone in a totally unrelated field (second year medical student), I don't like it. That being said, I think one of those things could nail me to the T, I feel very uncomfortable telling even a white lie. I know a lot of people who believe their own BS, and I think those people could easily beat one, which is disturbing. I can see someone being super nervous because of a lack of trust in the technology, not cause they are being deceptive, flunking one of those tests.

Off my soap box!

:soap::soap:

[No Frills McGee]

From what i've gathered, expungement in the end means nothing when it comes to applying for any sort of law field. I'll be up front about it if i do end up going the route to LEO or law school ( i was skeptical - but from what i've gathered from actual LEO on this thread, i am wrong). Ty all for your responses and help.

[NYC Drew]

From what i've gathered, expungement in the end means nothing when it comes to applying for any sort of law field. I'll be up front about it if i do end up going the route to LEO or law school ( i was skeptical - but from what i've gathered from actual LEO on this thread, i am wrong). Ty all for your responses and help.

This would be a correct assessment, and good luck sir!

:cool:
'Drew

[PAGunner]

From what i've gathered, expungement in the end means nothing when it comes to applying for any sort of law field. I'll be up front about it if i do end up going the route to LEO or law school ( i was skeptical - but from what i've gathered from actual LEO on this thread, i am wrong). Ty all for your responses and help.

Good luck to you! The point of us telling you this was so you don't completely ruin your chances. Keep LE in the back of your mind, but actively pursue whatever else you want to do.

[nikerret]

Good read and a helpful post.


Andybob

Thanks andybob!!

[nikerret]

From what i've gathered, expungement in the end means nothing when it comes to applying for any sort of law field. I'll be up front about it if i do end up going the route to LEO or law school ( i was skeptical - but from what i've gathered from actual LEO on this thread, i am wrong). Ty all for your responses and help.

This reflects a much better attitude. When you have more questions or concerns this site is a great place to get (mostly) unbiased opinions. Good luck with whatever you choose to pursue.

-nikerret

[monster1]

I am 22 years old in college. I want to be an officer, eventually detective. My current goal is a bachelors in english, and a masters in criminology. I'm working towards the english currently. I am 5'10 190 lbs and am currently losing weight. It takes me about 11 minutes to run a mile at a steady pace without killing myself, so i have fitness work to do, i realize that. About 6 years training under a style of MMA (founded locally by an ex green-beret and gov't agent), where i was instructed on police tactics, self defense, knife fighting, gun self defense, in a military fashion. I just moved so i'm jobless but once i get some money i plan on studying BJJ, as it is offered nearby. I recently took basic pistol training and applied for my CCW. I'm not particularly crazy on shooting other than for purpose of practice and accuracy in real world practical situations. I have an expunged record of a domestic violence charge, which i pleaded guilty to. I was considering law school, but i think i better fit the qualifications of a LEO.

I posted this here because i want to know if i have any chance being an officer with that record. And it's much easier to ask online where i can be anonymous. I need some direction.

Thankyou

in my LE experience in ca working in corrections i have found many people that were denied employment for reasons similar to yours. having your record wiped away doesn't nessessarily mean wiped away, especially with an FBI background check. most agencies will look at this and deny you because they don't need a reason. if they don't want to hire you they won't. btw, i wouldn't mention anything about weapons, defense training, gun collection, etc to potenial employers. they see this kinda **** (sh@t) everyday with applicants and they just roll their eyes and file your appication in the "round file." jmho.

[dave_pro2a]

the CVSA (similar to a polygraph)...

Next, the CVSA. Ahhhh... The folks who claim to be able to beat this test amuse me. The fact is that you MIGHT be able to pass this test without a problem, but I'd bet money that you can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr3E_2KTxI0

A machine built by a guy who admits he only has a PHD from a Bible College, is not really a doctor or scientist, a machine that has NEVER been subject to an independent scientific study.

Yeah, you'd be as accurate with a 'magic' coin that always came up heads when someone lied (the machine is just a more expensive prop).