Open Carry in Bar/Restaurant- [Archive] - Glock Talk

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usdm
09-16-2008, 10:27
So whats deemed "open carry" in a bar/restaurant? I went out with a friend that was packing IWB and he just tucked his shirt behind his gun and pranced in. Is this "open" considering only the grip was visible?

vafish
09-16-2008, 11:40
Nothing in VA law says what open carry is.

Only thing VA law says is that concealed carry is:

hidden from common observation

and

For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

So if folks can see it, and reasonably believe it is a gun than it's open carry.

Think about what would be said if your friend had been arrested for concealed carry in that restaurant.

Lawyer: Why did you arrest my client?

Cop: Because he was carrying a concealed handgun in a bar.

Lawyer: How did you know my client was carrying a concealed handgun?

Cop: I saw it on his hip

Lawyer: Was the gun under his shirt or coat?

Cop: No

Lawyer: So you saw the gun openly on his hip with nothing covering it?

Cop: well it was partially hidden.

Lawyer: But you could tell it was a gun?

Cop: Yes I could see the whole grip.

Lawyer: Your honor I move for dismissal.

Gregw/aGlock
09-16-2008, 14:47
I've done the same thing in restaurants; however, I was sorta "concerned" that my IWB holster (C-TAC Slide) does not have any retention devices. What's the general concensus on that issue?

usdm
09-16-2008, 16:26
Thanks for the replies. I guess the vague law could work for or against us. It's really how the officer sees it at the end of the day.

Olivers_AR
09-16-2008, 21:23
Yes its called the Virginia Tuck, and fairly common and does pass the standard for open carry.

Situational awareness in a bar is a good thing, suggest moving to a position where the strong side is on the inside of the booth or your back is against the wall, etc. There are classes in weapon retention and drills that help one feel more comfortable. The other thing is to participate in one of the open carry events, where there are others in the restaurant that can watch your six.



So whats deemed "open carry" in a bar/restaurant? I went out with a friend that was packing IWB and he just tucked his shirt behind his gun and pranced in. Is this "open" considering only the grip was visible?

usdm
09-18-2008, 10:18
The "Virginia Tuck", eh? Interesting. I guess it only flies in VA? I've been locking up everytime I go out to eat and I always feel uneasy leaving a special prize for a car thief. Thanks for the replies guys, I'll do some research and make sure I understand the law.

Orkinman
09-25-2008, 09:24
I'm all for OCing in a restaurant but the real problem here is what your friend did.

he just tucked his shirt behind his gun and pranced in

Friends don't let friends prance anywhere.

Spike32
10-19-2008, 18:25
I OC'd for the first time this week in Hampton. No issues.

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SUB CLUB #78
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RacingGLOCK35
10-26-2008, 09:48
I open carry every time i go out. Fobus paddle holster, g17, life is good....

Dean
10-26-2008, 11:25
So whats deemed "open carry" in a bar/restaurant?

Is this something that you should be doing?
Really? :drillsgt:

RacingGLOCK35
10-26-2008, 11:35
Is this something that you should be doing?
Really? :drillsgt:

Why not?

Gregw/aGlock
10-26-2008, 15:03
Why not?

Yeah, Dean, why not? Are you implying we should disarm and leave our guns in the car everytime we enter a restaurant (note that VA doesn't have "bars")?? I eat out about every night. I'm not leaving my gun at home or in my car, so I have no other option.

RacingGLOCK35
10-26-2008, 16:06
Yeah, Dean, why not? Are you implying we should disarm and leave our guns in the car everytime we enter a restaurant (note that VA doesn't have "bars")?? I eat out about every night. I'm not leaving my gun at home or in my car, so I have no other option.

what he said...

RandySmith
11-01-2008, 10:15
There's no requirement that you patron a place that serves alcohol. To say that you have no other options is really not true. You do not have to be there.

The problem is that you can be disarmed before you know what hit you. I teach both retention and disarming techniques and believe me, getting a gun away from someone is very easy.

The retention type holsters simply buy you a little time, provided the person attempting to take your gun doesn't know how to operate them. If he/she does, they can get your gun out as effortlessly as you can.

I know, the counter opinion is to maintain situational awareness and, to an extent you're right. However, there are times and places where you can be situationally aware and still have too many people inside of your reactionary gap to effectively watch them all. Think: a crowded elevator, standing in line at your favorite fast food place, walking down a crowded sidewalk, attending a city council meeting, etc... You be can be situationally aware and still someone can very easily snatch your gun before you can react.

One of the things I do when in public is watch people. I don't mean just a condition yellow or relaxed alert, I mean I watch people. I look for weakness, inattention, or other signs of vulnerability. Don't misunderstand, I would never act out in a criminal manner, I just find that the things learned by watching people are excellent teaching points for students in our classes. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone open carrying and paying absolutely no attention at all to their gun, the people well within their reactionary gap, or the world around them in general. When I see that, I think to myself about how many opportunities I (or someone else) would have to take their gun.

As an example of just how little attention people pay to their environment, I have several pictures that were taken with the camera in my cell phone showing my hand just above the grip of a unconcealed and holstered handgun. Now, if I can get close enough and have sufficient time to take a picture of that, how easy would it be for me (or someone with a real intent) to snatch your gun? BTW, these pictures were taken at a city council meeting where a number of people who were open carrying were paying a lot more attention to the person making a presentation than they were me. I show these pictures in my classes as an example of how easy it is to get "caught up in the moment" and not pay attention to the people around you and especially to what they are doing.

It is fortunate that there aren't that many criminals for people who open carry are usually making themselves very easy targets and do not even realize it.

If you are going to open carry, at least get a decent holster with a retention device and learn how to use it. To be successful, this method still relies on a certain ineptitude in the attacker's ability but it is better than the alternative.

Be aware that holsters can fail. This video (http://www.dt-concepts.com/mg/gungrab.mpg) serves as an example of just how easy it is to break a holster.

Randy

TheEggman
11-02-2008, 07:28
[SNIP]

It is fortunate that there aren't that many criminals for people who open carry are usually making themselves very easy targets and do not even realize it.

If you are going to open carry, at least get a decent holster with a retention device and learn how to use it. To be successful, this method still relies on a certain ineptitude in the attacker's ability but it is better than the alternative.

Randy

Agree 100% on the Retention Holster, however, as to the wisdom/tactical advantage/disadvantage of open vs. concealed carry, there are equal arguments on both sides.

What I look at rather than arguments, opinions and hypotheticals are actual happenings.

I don't see that loss of weapon, or 'being the first person targeted' is happening anywhere. I'm certain that if this was a 'real-world' rather than hypothetical problem that the media would be all over it.

While I usually prefer to carry concealed, I can see no demonstrated disadvantage in OC.

If there is, however, the Virginia 'Restaurant Ban' carries it to the absurd.

Here's a law that requires a person to expose their defensive sidearm to full public view if they enter a place where OTHER people may be drinking, or even drunk. Of ALL places where logic and common sense (hypothetical or not) dictates that hidden would be better, this would be the place.

Best,

RandySmith
11-02-2008, 17:46
I agree that these attacks aren't happing to citizens who are carrying openly, thus the comment about it being fortunate that there aren't that many criminals. I just want people to understand how easy it is to have someone else take your gun from you when carrying in that fashion. An ounce of prevention...

Successful gun grabs do happen all too often with LE though and they (usually) have had some kind of weapon retention training.

The law is such that you may not enter an establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption while carrying a concealed firearm. I think we both understand the wording of that. My point here is simply that the law does not require that you enter such a place. Since there's no legal requirement for you to be there, stating that one must open carry their firearm because the "law says so" strikes me as being a little intentionally misleading.

I would really like to see this code section repealed. It serves no good whatsoever.

Randy

Dean
11-02-2008, 18:00
Stay out of bars.
Trouble starts in bars because people are drinking in there.
All cops should avoid bars. Especially for drinking.
Never be in public with alcohol on your breath with a gun on you.
Buy your steaks in bulk at the meat market and eat at home.
It's less trouble. That's why. And NO, don't leave your gun in your car. It won't be there when you get back. You want that onion thing, don't you? You can make a Bloomin' Onion at home.
'you wanna know how to make it, don't you?

http://www.recipetrove.com/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,122/Itemid,26/
Now you can stay home. The beer's colder at home. Get a big TV and buy the Cowboy's sports package. :drillsgt:

RacingGLOCK35
11-02-2008, 18:14
P.S. there are no bars in V.a. , bloomin onions are better at outback, and i wont get the cowboys package....at the moment they are getting spanked by the GIANTS!!! :rofl:

frank4570
11-02-2008, 19:22
The thing I wonder about most is this. When the sheep see the gun does it cause them to grow less concerned about them or does it scare them into supporting gun control. I would HOPE that as they see people carrying guns and a lack of gunfights that they would be less concerned about guns.
But what I want and how things SHOULD be are not always the way things are.
I just want what is best for the cause of 2nd amendment rights.

BTW I have open carried at restaurants once or twice, nobody paid much attention.

RacingGLOCK35
11-03-2008, 07:48
The thing I wonder about most is this. When the sheep see the gun does it cause them to grow less concerned about them or does it scare them into supporting gun control. I would HOPE that as they see people carrying guns and a lack of gunfights that they would be less concerned about guns.
But what I want and how things SHOULD be are not always the way things are.
I just want what is best for the cause of 2nd amendment rights.

BTW I have open carried at restaurants once or twice, nobody paid much attention.

Not many people do notice. And actually alot of people approach me and say "Excuse me , officer i have a question" I am LE , but do they know that...No. Could be because i look like i just got out of the Marines...maybe. There is nothing wrong with open carry in a state that is used to it. Plus.... A right not used is no right at all......

TheEggman
11-03-2008, 07:49
The thing I wonder about most is this. When the sheep see the gun does it cause them to grow less concerned about them or does it scare them into supporting gun control. I would HOPE that as they see people carrying guns and a lack of gunfights that they would be less concerned about guns.
But what I want and how things SHOULD be are not always the way things are.
I just want what is best for the cause of 2nd amendment rights.

BTW I have open carried at restaurants once or twice, nobody paid much attention.

Many 'good' encounters with those who do not carry happen, but I'm sure are never 'reported' here or elsewhere.

My experience would be overwhelmingly positive, or just non-events.

When a 'bad' encounter happens it usually gets written up here or elsewhere, and bad encounters CAN be REALLY bad, especially where the police get involved.

Most of the OC'rs I find are excruciatingly polite, usually well spoken and if not 'sharply' dressed, look like 'ordinary folk.' Whenever one of us takes advantage of an opportunity to educate, we usually do.

You can't believe most surveys and polls, so all I have to go on is my experience and that of others reported here and places such as OpenCarry.org.

Based on that, I believe we are doing far more 'PR' good than harm.

Best,

usdm
11-14-2008, 23:42
There's no requirement that you patron a place that serves alcohol. To say that you have no other options is really not true. You do not have to be there.

The problem is that you can be disarmed before you know what hit you. I teach both retention and disarming techniques and believe me, getting a gun away from someone is very easy.

The retention type holsters simply buy you a little time, provided the person attempting to take your gun doesn't know how to operate them. If he/she does, they can get your gun out as effortlessly as you can.

I know, the counter opinion is to maintain situational awareness and, to an extent you're right. However, there are times and places where you can be situationally aware and still have too many people inside of your reactionary gap to effectively watch them all. Think: a crowded elevator, standing in line at your favorite fast food place, walking down a crowded sidewalk, attending a city council meeting, etc... You be can be situationally aware and still someone can very easily snatch your gun before you can react.

One of the things I do when in public is watch people. I don't mean just a condition yellow or relaxed alert, I mean I watch people. I look for weakness, inattention, or other signs of vulnerability. Don't misunderstand, I would never act out in a criminal manner, I just find that the things learned by watching people are excellent teaching points for students in our classes. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone open carrying and paying absolutely no attention at all to their gun, the people well within their reactionary gap, or the world around them in general. When I see that, I think to myself about how many opportunities I (or someone else) would have to take their gun.

As an example of just how little attention people pay to their environment, I have several pictures that were taken with the camera in my cell phone showing my hand just above the grip of a unconcealed and holstered handgun. Now, if I can get close enough and have sufficient time to take a picture of that, how easy would it be for me (or someone with a real intent) to snatch your gun? BTW, these pictures were taken at a city council meeting where a number of people who were open carrying were paying a lot more attention to the person making a presentation than they were me. I show these pictures in my classes as an example of how easy it is to get "caught up in the moment" and not pay attention to the people around you and especially to what they are doing.

It is fortunate that there aren't that many criminals for people who open carry are usually making themselves very easy targets and do not even realize it.

If you are going to open carry, at least get a decent holster with a retention device and learn how to use it. To be successful, this method still relies on a certain ineptitude in the attacker's ability but it is better than the alternative.

Be aware that holsters can fail. This video (http://www.dt-concepts.com/mg/gungrab.mpg) serves as an example of just how easy it is to break a holster.

Randy

I haven't checked back on this thread, but I'm really glad I did!

I've always felt a little uneasy open carrying anyway, but add drunk people and the situation makes me feel as uneasy as leaving my gun in the car.

sdglock22
11-15-2008, 00:34
Here's what SD's take is on this issue. Not sure how a person is supposed to determine the income levels of the establishment, just use best judgement I guess.

<!-- WP Style End: SENU --> 23-7-8.1. <!-- WP Paired Style Off: SENU --> <!-- WP Style End: SENU --> <!-- WP Paired Style On: CL --><!-- WP Style End: CL -->Form and contents of permit. <!-- WP Paired Style Off: CL --><!-- WP Style End: CL -->The form of the permit to carry a concealed pistol shall be prescribed by the secretary of state pursuant to 23-7-8. The permit shall list the applicant's name, address, and the expiration date of the permit. The holder of a permit may carry a concealed pistol anywhere in South Dakota except in any licensed on-sale malt beverage or alcoholic beverage establishment that derives over one-half of its total income from the sale of malt or alcoholic beverages. Nothing in this section prevents law enforcement officers, security guards employed on the premises, and other public officials with the written permission of the sheriff from carrying concealed weapons in the performance of their duties or prevents home or business owners from carrying concealed weapons on their property pursuant to 22-14-11.

RussP
11-15-2008, 19:49
Is this something that you should be doing?
Really? :drillsgt:In Virginia, and this is about carry in Virginia, as you've been informed many, many times, it is one of four choices. You can frequent only restaurants that do not serve alcoholic beverages, you can leave your firearm at home, you can leave your firearm locked in your car risking theft, or you open carry.

I open carry.

Now, please refrain from trying to pick a fight.

It is getting old.

RussP
11-15-2008, 20:18
There's no requirement that you patron a place that serves alcohol. To say that you have no other options is really not true. You do not have to be there...
RandySo, Randy, you never patronize any restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages? Good for you...

Yes, it is easy to disarm someone who is not interested in their surroundings.

Yes, it is better to carry in an active retention holster.

Situational awareness is definitely our friend...definitely. It is something to practice and practice and practice until it is so natural no one knows you've just evaluated them as a potential threat.

But how to do that would fill a book, wouldn't it.


:cool:

RandySmith
11-15-2008, 21:54
So, Randy, you never patronize any restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages? Good for you...


No, that's not what I said at all.

Randy

RandySmith
01-16-2009, 20:22
What I look at rather than arguments, opinions and hypotheticals are actual happenings.


http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

Randy

RussP
01-18-2009, 11:21
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/reports/reports2006/073106robNewtonPatton.htm

RandyJuly 30, 2006...

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=164789&stc=1&d=1232072821

We've strayed way off the original topic...

fmhuff
03-12-2009, 22:43
I think the 4S rule should be in effect here. Perhaps a roll of $100 bills stuffed in a shirt pocked but visible to everyone in the bar would aleviate the situation. :supergrin:

Reswob
03-14-2009, 20:33
There's no requirement that you patron a place that serves alcohol. To say that you have no other options is really not true.
I beg to differ. 99% of restaurants serve alcohol. Are you saying we should just never go out to eat except at McDonalds?