45 Gap vs 40 Cal

[ghostrider_23]

I am thinking of getting either a G22 or a G37. I am not crazy about the 40 caliber due to it's muzzle flip. :crying:

Of those of you that have a 45Gap, how is the muzzle and recoil??????

I would get a 21 SF and that would be the end of my search, but even with the reduced grip it's still too big for my hands.

Please tell me as much as you can about the GAP.

I would like to own one, but will say the lack of stores that carry the Gap ammo is making me rethink things.

[Gregw/aGlock]

Recoil of the .45GAP in the G37 is not "snappy" at all IMO. I think it's more of a push back into my palm -- slightly more stout than a 9mm. Both my wife and I can easily manage the recoil and make reasonably quick follow-up shots.

[Raygun8189]

We just tested the G23 and G38 at my PD. After shooting both guns side by side (230 grain in the GAP, 180 grain in .40) both guns seemed to have similar recoil. The GAP may have recoiled slightly less in my opinion but not much. That could change if you loaded the 40 w/ 165 or 155 grainers. We liked the 45 GAP but we didn't feel the need to switch from the 40 caliber and loose capacity for what may amount to not much of a difference in performance. I would go with the G23 or G22. That's is what we ended up choosing. Have fun.

[J.P.]

I think you'll be happier in the long run with the G22 or G23.
When you stand there ad do a good side-by-side comparison you'll find that the difference in recoil is not enough to matter...in fact I think the .40 feel a bit milder than the .45acp....I don't own a 45GAP model
When you factor in capacity and the proven effectiveness of modern .40 JHPs, I just don't see how you can go wrong with the G22/23

[Apocalypse_Now]

I carry .40 handguns with 155 grain DPX loads.. went with a G22 for my re-entry into the dark side, couldn't be happier. The DPX has plenty of penetration and expansion in a lighter, less-recoiling load

The 45 GAP cannot pass the "Wally World" test, and all other factors aside that's enough convincing for me

[Quiet]

I carry and shoot the .45GAP.

I happend upon it, when trying to determine which Glock subcompact to get.
I handled & shot the Glock 26 (9x19mm), 27 (.40S&W), 33 (.357SIG) & 39 (.45GAP).

For me, felt recoil is less with a .45GAP than with the .40S&W & .357SIG.
Recoil is more of a push, less snap with the .45GAP when compared to the .40S&W.
I'm also more accurate shooting the .45GAP than with the .40S&W, .357SIG & 9x19mm.

As much as the naysayers want to say the .45GAP is dead, four state law enforcement agencies have adopted the .45GAP.
As long as law enforcement supports a particular round, that round will not die out.
So, the .45GAP will be around of quite some time.

Purchase ammo online.
It's cheaper and the prices bring it within that of .45ACP ammo.

After shooting .45GAP for about 1-2 years and .40S&W for about 6 years, I'm sold on the .45GAP and perfer it over .40S&W.

[cranejc]

.40 has too much flip for my taste. .45 gap pushes like the acp. just two different flavors.

[J.P.]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the 45GAP is dead, it's just not in wide enough use that you'll see a good selection of (if any) ammunition for it everywhere.
If I were forced to carry a Glock chambered in 45GAP, I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over it, but I can't see any advantage to convince we to switch from .40S&W platforms.

[Giggity-Giggity]

.40S&W all the way.

[triaxle]

I would go with the 40 you can get ammo any place you stop at. And it holds more rounds.

[BOGE]

So let's get this straight, you run out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight yet somehow are able to dash to Walmart and grab a quick box enabling you to return fire? :upeyes: The "Walmart test" is plain ignorant.

"Charlie, I have to cancel my $15,000 guided hunt to Kodiak Island as Walmart doesn't stock .375 H&H." :wavey:

If you're enough of a serious shooter you'll probably become a reloader out of monetary desperation or desire to have better ammo. If not, then buy in bulk on the Internet and save more money that you can at Walmart.

[packinaglock]

I carry and shoot the .45GAP.

I happend upon it, when trying to determine which Glock subcompact to get.
I handled & shot the Glock 26 (9x19mm), 27 (.40S&W), 33 (.357SIG) & 39 (.45GAP).

For me, felt recoil is less with a .45GAP than with the .40S&W & .357SIG.
Recoil is more of a push, less snap with the .45GAP when compared to the .40S&W.
I'm also more accurate shooting the .45GAP than with the .40S&W, .357SIG & 9x19mm.

As much as the naysayers want to say the .45GAP is dead, four state law enforcement agencies have adopted the .45GAP.
As long as law enforcement supports a particular round, that round will not die out.
So, the .45GAP will be around of quite some time.

Purchase ammo online.
It's cheaper and the prices bring it within that of .45ACP ammo.

After shooting .45GAP for about 1-2 years and .40S&W for about 6 years, I'm sold on the .45GAP and perfer it over .40S&W.

Yes the .45 GAP is easy on the recoil I love shooting my G37 and as Quiet said just buy your ammo online. I always seem to find better deals their anyways. I buy my 9mm and .45 acp there also.

[mrnuke7571]

90% of thee stores locally carry 45gap, and it's priced almost the same (sometimes cheaper) than 45acp. On-line they are about the same in bulk pricing.

I have had and shot MANY calibers and sizes of guns before finally getting stuck on the Glock 38 in 45gap. it is a mid-size handgun shooting a powerful 45caliber bullet with the exact same ballistics (I've tested in ballistics media) as 45acp.

Recoil to me feels like a +P+ 9mm load, not quite as harsh as the 40sw even in low weight bullets. Accuracy is 'oddly' better than any handgun I've shot yet, other than crazily overpriced and unreliable 1911's.

The fact that I can carry 10 (9rnds fit safely in the glock 38 mag if you remove the bottom plastic follower)rnds of 45gap in a mid-size gun with recoil nowhere NEAR a subcompact 45acp gun and still be able to call shots makes me all fuzzy inside.

I have shot the other compact 45acp guns like the kimber ultra carry's, springfield XD45,Sig 245, USP compact 45, glock 30/36, Para Warthog 45, Taurus PT145. They all either had quite more recoil, way less capacity worse accuracy, or all 3.

[engineer151515]

.40 is snappy and no matter how you cut it, it's not a .45.

[J.P.]

So let's get this straight, you run out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight yet somehow are able to dash to Walmart and grab a quick box enabling you to return fire? :upeyes: The "Walmart test" is plain ignorant.

"Charlie, I have to cancel my $15,000 guided hunt to Kodiak Island as Walmart doesn't stock .375 H&H." :wavey:

If you're enough of a serious shooter you'll probably become a reloader out of monetary desperation or desire to have better ammo. If not, then buy in bulk on the Internet and save more money that you can at Walmart.

I understand what you are saying but not everyone can afford to buy in bulk all the time. :dunno:
It may not prevent me from using a caliber that local stores don't support but it is definitely a bonus any way you look at it...

[cole]

I understand what you are saying but not everyone can afford to buy in bulk all the time. :dunno:
It may not prevent me from using a caliber that local stores don't support but it is definitely a bonus any way you look at it...

Agreed. The .45gap is NOT a casual/recreational shooter load. Keyboard commandoes on GT of course order ammo by the truckload, or reload, but the average shooter will buy what's on the local shelf on an as-needed basis. Most shooters are simply better served by a more common caliber: 9mm, 40sw or .45acp. And, the less you shoot, the smaller that caliber should be IMHO. The .45gap has simply not yet caught on and is going more the route of the .357sig and 10mm than the .40sw. I'd get the .40sw of the two, but actually, of any, I'd get the 9mm in the G17 or G19.

[Wake County Glockman]

.40 is more than a .357 and less than a .45 it actually sits in the middle I like to call it a comfortable medium. Recoil is not that bad either.

[Apocalypse_Now]

So let's get this straight, you run out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight yet somehow are able to dash to Walmart and grab a quick box enabling you to return fire? :upeyes: The "Walmart test" is plain ignorant.

"Charlie, I have to cancel my $15,000 guided hunt to Kodiak Island as Walmart doesn't stock .375 H&H." :wavey:

If you're enough of a serious shooter you'll probably become a reloader out of monetary desperation or desire to have better ammo. If not, then buy in bulk on the Internet and save more money that you can at Walmart.

Some of us are preparedness people and plan our collection accordingly. Virtually no one will have 45 GAP when the SHTF, in fact almost no place except a gunshop has it, now

BTW I'm a 23 years long reloader. I basically get 45 ACP brass for free. My last haul was 6,000 once fired for free. Once fired 40 cal brass is about $26 a thousand right now. Try that with 45 GAP

[cole]

Some of us are preparedness people and plan our collection accordingly. Virtually no one will have 45 GAP when the SHTF, in fact almost no place except a gunshop has it, now

BTW I'm a 23 years long reloader. I basically get 45 ACP brass for free. My last haul was 6,000 once fired for free. Once fired 40 cal brass is about $26 a thousand right now. Try that with 45 GAP

Excellent points. .45gap is harder to come by. I get all my brass gratis as well. And, I VERY rarely see .45gap at the range. 9mm brass is everywhere (at the range), and .45acp was plentiful as well (when I reloaded for that caliber).

[Apocalypse_Now]

Excellent points. .45gap is harder to come by. I get all my brass gratis as well. And, I VERY rarely see .45gap at the range. 9mm brass is everywhere (at the range), and .45acp was plentiful as well (when I reloaded for that caliber).

Which is why my main handguns are:

380 ACP

38/357

9MM

40

45 ACP

[G26S239]

I already own 8 auto pistols and one derringer in 45 ACP and don't perceive any gain in getting a pistol that duplicates the same power level with a harder to find caliber. I also own 4 40/357 Sig caliber auto pistols that I can find ammo for almost anywhere. Sure the 357 Sig costs more and is not as common but the 40 is available almost anywhere that sells ammo. That is why I see no downside to the 357 Sig as ammo availability corresponds to the GAP cartridge availability. If the 357 Sig disappeared from store shelves tomorrow the 40 would still be there. I have nothing against the GAP but I believe it will be slightly more available than 41 Action Express in 15 years.

[PAGunner]

Go with the G37, last I heard, CDNN had them for $375 brand new, just how do you beat that? I love Glocks and would rather have a .45 than a .40 any day of the week. I'm actively trying to sell my USPc .45 to get a G38 or G37.

[PAGunner]

.45gap is harder to come by

That simply isn't true, go on the internet and .45GAP is easily found at prices comparable to .45ACP. Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, and Gold Dot (THE big 3) all make .45GAP ammo, what more could you possibly want?

[PAGunner]

Virtually no one will have 45 GAP when the SHTF, in fact almost no place except a gunshop has it, now

Exactly how many zombies do you plan to slay with your handgun when the SHTF? :rofl:

[G32-357sig]

G37 is a great gun. I bought mine LN for $350 with night sites. recoil is less snappy than 40 like other said , and is the same as 45ACP in my opinion , which is not bad to me. Look at Georgia Arms. they have great prices on ammo, especially rounds that are usually expensive like 10mm, 357 sig and 45 gap. There gold dots in the following calibers are very cheap check them out

[G26S239]

G37 is a great gun. I bought mine LN for $350 with night sites. recoil is less snappy than 40 like other said , and is the same as 45ACP in my opinion , which is not bad to me. Look at Georgia Arms. they have great prices on ammo, especially rounds that are usually expensive like 10mm, 357 sig and 45 gap. There gold dots in the following calibers are very cheap check them out
That's a good idea, I'll look up the GA 357 ammo. Thanks for the tip.:cool:

[Halojumper]

So let's get this straight, you run out of ammo in the middle of a gunfight yet somehow are able to dash to Walmart and grab a quick box enabling you to return fire? :upeyes: The "Walmart test" is plain ignorant.

"Charlie, I have to cancel my $15,000 guided hunt to Kodiak Island as Walmart doesn't stock .375 H&H." :wavey:

If you're enough of a serious shooter you'll probably become a reloader out of monetary desperation or desire to have better ammo. If not, then buy in bulk on the Internet and save more money that you can at Walmart.


I suspect that the Walmart test has more to do with finding an affordable place to acquire ammo, than a place to find ammo in the middle of a gunfight.

[BOGE]

The bottom line is this: try different guns & different calibers and then YOU make the decision based upon whatever criteria you may be using. You don't have to buy ammo by the pallet load from the Internet despite whatever some of these pseudo "The Postman" SHTF types tell you. If that ever happens you'll be far more interested in food & water than ammo. :upeyes: I'd venture money that most of these "Gapophobes" have never even busted a cap on one .45 GAP cartridge yet somehow they sit at their keyboards in their mom's basement espousing the magnaminity of the .45 ACP and eschewing the .45 GAP as an anemic pretender. Why is it you never see people who shoot a GAP "crashing" threads on GT where people are discussing the .45 ACP? :wavey:

[9mmdude]

The Glock 23 holds 13 rounds of .40 cal that IMO is more potent than anything the .45gap can deliver. That coupled with the fact that the same size G38 holds 8 rounds answers the question for me. Go with the .40's.

[21 shooter]

The Mod. 37 does have more of a push and less muzzle flip than a Mod. 22. The 40 S&W received a lot of bad press in the beginning, but now it is the darling of many folks and LE agencies. And the same applies for ammo. 40 S&W was not easily found at first, and GAP is the same way. Gunshops and wallyworld will soon discover that their customers will buy online if they don't have it. As to SHTF situations, I would prefer a rifle or shotgun. A handgun is not my first choice. And finally, shot placement is the most important thing. Use the pistol that you shoot most accurately and quickly.

[G26S239]

:upeyes: I'd venture money that most of these "Gapophobes" have never even busted a cap on one .45 GAP cartridge yet somehow they sit at their keyboards in their mom's basement espousing the magnaminity of the .45 ACP and eschewing the .45 GAP as an anemic pretender. Why is it you never see people who shoot a GAP "crashing" threads on GT where people are discussing the .45 ACP? :wavey:
Who specifically called the GAP anemic? No one "crashed" this thread, it is on a public board that all the posters are members of. The question that was asked in this thread was about prefering the 40 S&W or 45 GAP. If I had no preference I would not have bothered posting in this thread but I do have a preference that I have demonstrated by buying 40 guns but not 45 GAP guns. Maybe you could try getting the TOS of this board changed so that only positive things can be stated about the GAP cartridge's expectations of long term success in the marketplace. That way you would not feel the need for ad hominem attacks on the 45 ACP enthusiasts who disagree with you. BTW how did you find out that most 45 ACP fans live with their mothers? :tongueout: We've been trying to keep that a secret.:rofl:

[david3000]

The Glock 23 holds 13 rounds of .40 cal that IMO is more potent than anything the .45gap can deliver. That coupled with the fact that the same size G38 holds 8 rounds answers the question for me. Go with the .40's.

While it's true that the .40 holds more rounds, the .45 GAP has equivalent ballistics to the .45 acp which is more potent than the .40 S@W.

I love your avatar -- Vote McCain/Palin!

[G26S239]

While it's true that the .40 holds more rounds, the .45 GAP has equivalent ballistics to the .45 acp which is more potent than the .40 S@W.

I love your avatar -- Vote McCain/Palin!
I agree that while the 40 is close the 45 holds the edge in hitting power.

[cole]

That simply isn't true, go on the internet and .45GAP is easily found at prices comparable to .45ACP. Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, and Gold Dot (THE big 3) all make .45GAP ammo, what more could you possibly want?

Share my opinion on that already:

Agreed. The .45gap is NOT a casual/recreational shooter load. Keyboard commandoes on GT of course order ammo by the truckload, or reload, but the average shooter will buy what's on the local shelf on an as-needed basis. Most shooters are simply better served by a more common caliber: 9mm, 40sw or .45acp. And, the less you shoot, the smaller that caliber should be IMHO. The .45gap has simply not yet caught on and is going more the route of the .357sig and 10mm than the .40sw. I'd get the .40sw of the two, but actually, of any, I'd get the 9mm in the G17 or G19.

[PAGunner]

Share my opinion on that already:

Point taken, but as long as someone knows how they will have to buy ammo for the GAP Glocks before they buy it, there really isn't any issues, I guess we all have AlGore to thank, since he created the internet. :whistling:

[SDGlock23]

I have nothing against the 45 Gap, I used to have a Glock 38. It shot nice and was accurate. But, for a carry pistol, the G23 is lighter and holds 5 more bullets.

From a firepower standpoint, the Gap does an excellent job at replicating the old .45 ACP. I don't feel the .45 is superior to the .40, but I think the .40 has the upper hand and to add, is more versatile. With that, as good as the G38 was, all advantages that I can see point to the G23.

[Darth Sion]

At 5'9" and 157 lbs. I'm not a big guy, and, at 5'2", weight unknown, my sister isn't a big woman, and neither of us have had any trouble handling the recoil generated by either of these cartridges or pistols. Stopping power is also moot, when one considers cartridge load and shot placement.

The .40 has an extremely slight advantage over the .45 GAP in terms of availability. One can buy .40 cals anywhere that sells ammunition. With four law enforcement agencies having adopted the GAP, however, the availability of cartridge isn't likely to wane.

You'll be making a good choice regardless of which pistol you select.

[HiredGun77]

The 45Gap and the 45ACP do kick less because they are less powerfull than a 40S&W. Simple physics. More power makes more kick. Loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

[LABMAN]

I have a 40, 45gap & 45 auto, and each for a different reason. If my choice is a G22 or G37 as was your post, my answer is a simple one. Get the G22. More variety of ammo, easier to find ammo, 15 rounds vs 10, little to no difference in energy or performance for personal defense, ammo for G22 is somewhat cheaper...

[PAGunner]

The 45Gap and the 45ACP do kick less because they are less powerfull than a 40S&W. Simple physics. More power makes more kick. Loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

Too bad all that extra energy doesn't do anything to add to wounding. :wavey:

[engineer151515]

The 45Gap and the 45ACP do kick less because they are less powerfull than a 40S&W. Simple physics. More power makes more kick. Loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

That's funny.

Try this - .40SW SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 psi in an effort to get the smaller bullet to .45ACP/GAP performance levels. 45ACP+P and 45GAP top out at 23,000 psi.

Thus, a snappier recoil.


The data:

Load............................PF

9mm 115gr 1160fps...........133.4
9mm+p 115gr 1250fps........143.8
.40SW 135gr 1300fps.........175.5
.40SW 165gr 1100fps.........181.5
.40SW 180gr 960fps...........172.8
357SIG 125gr 1300fps........162.5
.357Mag 125gr 1450fps.......181.3
.38Spl+p 158gr 890fps........140.6
.45ACP 230gr 850fps..........195.5
.45GAP 200gr 993fps..........199
.45GAP 230gr 885fps...........204
.45ACP+p 185gr 1140fps......210.9
.44Mag 240gr 1180fps..........283.2

[mrnuke7571]

If we're comparing capacity here, I'll throw in the Glock 19 with 15 rounds in the mag, LESS recoil (meaning faster more accurate follow up shots) and almost the exact same expansion/penetration as 40s&w (unless you use anemic 115gr or under bullets).

The 45acp/45gap round is way ahead of the 40s&w in regards to performance. Most modern 45acp/45gap ammo expands to a minimum of .75" from the bullets I've tested myself, with Federal HST and Speer Gold Dots sometimes hitting OVER .90"!!!! Still penetrating a minimum of 11.5" (HST).

I hate to keep saying it, but I rather carry 10 rounds (yes 9 in the glock 38 mag) of a more accurate, less recoil/flip and more effective round than the 40s&w, which is all the opposite.

Heck I'd rather carry my Glock 19c than a 40s&w even. :supergrin:

I was shooting my buddy's 357sig (Glock 32) the other week, and it even had less flip and harshness to the recoil than the 23 I've shot before.

[SW342]

I would pick the 45 gap......

[Bowtie]

You cant compare the two.They dont have the same type of felt recoil. The .40 is a muzzle lifting snap and a .45 is a rearward push that is much softer.

[david3000]

The 45Gap and the 45ACP do kick less because they are less powerfull than a 40S&W. Simple physics. More power makes more kick. Loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

So simple physics would tell you that more lead and more powder would produce less power? I hope you're kidding. :rofl:

[SGT45]

.45 GAP. Nuff said!

[GVFlyer]

When I'm considering buying a new weapon, I go to one of the ranges in my area that rents guns to try them out. Why don't you do that and see which one you like the best?

[J.P.]

Too bad all that extra energy doesn't do anything to add to wounding. :wavey:

Does it not increase the stretch cavity?:dunno:

[J.P.]

I was shooting my buddy's 357sig (Glock 32) the other week, and it even had less flip and harshness to the recoil than the 23 I've shot before.
That's an interesting perspective because I find the exact opposite to be true.
Then again, I don't seem to have any issues in regard to the .40's recoil over the 9mm....not enough difference to matter to me...

[PAGunner]

Does it not increase the stretch cavity?:dunno:

Well, I'm not God and I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but if you read the FBI ballistics workshop report, you know, the gold standard. It clearly states, unless a bullet is traveling at 2,000fps or greater, the "stretch cavity" aka temporary cavity is a non issue. This explains why rifle rounds (by virtue of high velocity) will do a number on someone, despite being tiny compared to a handgun round.

[HiredGun77]

PF is not a true indicator or the energy that is felt by the shooter. Rerun your figures using foot pounds energy. 230 ball going 850fps (369fpe) makes less energy than a 155grain bullets going 1250fps (538fpe). Given equal weight guns generating the same foot pounds of energy the recoil will be the same. This is the simple physics rule is for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now I will admit as already pointed out that there is a different acceleration curve that the lighter bullets go through to get the same energy as the large slow round but the total amount of recoil force is the same and given a blind test I doubt anyone could tell which load was which if the muzzle energy was equal. This is why the 45 is so popular with the competition crown. It's easier to shoot.

[KnightOfTheOlde]

Have you looked at the G30 SF? You're missing out if you don't give it a try.

I am thinking of getting either a G22 or a G37. I am not crazy about the 40 caliber due to it's muzzle flip. :crying:

Of those of you that have a 45Gap, how is the muzzle and recoil??????

I would get a 21 SF and that would be the end of my search, but even with the reduced grip it's still too big for my hands.

Please tell me as much as you can about the GAP.

I would like to own one, but will say the lack of stores that carry the Gap ammo is making me rethink things.

[gary newport]

Some of us are preparedness people and plan our collection accordingly. Virtually no one will have 45 GAP when the SHTF, in fact almost no place except a gunshop has it, now

BTW I'm a 23 years long reloader. I basically get 45 ACP brass for free. My last haul was 6,000 once fired for free. Once fired 40 cal brass is about $26 a thousand right now. Try that with 45 GAP

That's about what I paid per thousand on an order of 5,000 once-fired .45 GAP cases! :cool:

(I have to admit that I got lucky on this deal. :whistling:)

[gary newport]

The Glock 23 holds 13 rounds of .40 cal that IMO is more potent than anything the .45gap can deliver. That coupled with the fact that the same size G38 holds 8 rounds answers the question for me. Go with the .40's.

:rofl: There you go again!

[gary newport]

The 45Gap and the 45ACP do kick less because they are less powerfull than a 40S&W. Simple physics. More power makes more kick. Loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

Better re-read your physics book! :supergrin:

[HiredGun77]

Gary,
Other than lots of these :rofl: and a few :supergrin: just what are you trying to say?

Just which load out of the 45ACP or 45Gap makes more foot pounds of energy (power) than a 40S&W loaded to spec?

How does less foot pounds of energy translate into more recoil. I can't seem to find any theory on how that works.

Please enlighten me. I'm always open to learn something.

[Caliper]

http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq107/Caliper68/GTEmoticon/CaliberWar.gif

[Bert.40]

If you can't control muzzle flip. Get a G22C. I shoot the G22C and I also have a .40 non compensated barrel to use in competitive shoots. Muzzle flip isnt noticable with either barrel.

One factor you don't mention is economics. Even if you reload, the .45 adds up to more $$$. Bullets cost more and brass cost more.

If you are going to carry; .45 or .40 flip a coin. If you're a civilian and you need more then 8 rounds in a gun fight; you're in deep do-do!!
If you are going to shoot for enjoyment + carry buy a 9mm; unless you are finacially secure, then get one of each.

:psycho::therapy:

[J.P.]

Well, I'm not God and I'm certainly not a ballistics expert, but if you read the FBI ballistics workshop report, you know, the gold standard. It clearly states, unless a bullet is traveling at 2,000fps or greater, the "stretch cavity" aka temporary cavity is a non issue. This explains why rifle rounds (by virtue of high velocity) will do a number on someone, despite being tiny compared to a handgun round.

I'm no expert either, but having vital tissue stretched at the speed of a bullet seems like an issue to me...particularly if it's of the non-elastic variety.

[Remington700VS]

.40 isn't bad at all... Ever shoot a 500, 460, 454, 45 LC, 44???

[Quiet]

Just which load out of the 45ACP or 45Gap makes more foot pounds of energy (power) than a 40S&W loaded to spec?

Speer LE catalog (http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/GoldDot.aspx)

Speer LE Gold Dot .40S&W 180gr = 1025FPS / 420Ft-lbs
Speer LE Gold Dot .45GAP 185gr = 1090FPS / 488Ft-lbs
Speer LE Gold Dot .45ACP 185gr = 1050FPS / 453Ft-lbs

Speer LE Gold Dot .40S&W 200gr = 915FPS / 372Ft-lbs
Speer LE Gold Dot .45GAP 200gr = 1020FPS / 462Ft-lbs
Speer LE Gold Dot .45ACP 200gr+P = 1080FPS / 518Ft-lbs

Federal LE Tactical HST .40S&W 165gr = 1130FPS / 468Ft-lbs
Federal LE Tactical HST .45GAP 230gr = 890FPS / 404Ft-lbs
Federal LE Tactical HST .45ACP 230gr = 890FPS / 404Ft-lbs

[david3000]

Gary,
Other than lots of these :rofl: and a few :supergrin: just what are you trying to say?

Just which load out of the 45ACP or 45Gap makes more foot pounds of energy (power) than a 40S&W loaded to spec?

How does less foot pounds of energy translate into more recoil. I can't seem to find any theory on how that works.

Please enlighten me. I'm always open to learn something.

Recoil does not equate power. While the .45 has milder recoil than the .40 due to lower pressure; the heavier, wider .45 bullet with more powder pushing it, gives more impact, penetration and expansion power. The only advantage of the .40 is greater capacity in the same sized frame.

[PAGunner]

I'm no expert either, but having vital tissue stretched at the speed of a bullet seems like an issue to me...particularly if it's of the non-elastic variety.

I will refer you to the gold standard on handgun wounding, the FBI Ballistics Workshop report. If you go immediately to pgs. 5-7, you will understand what I'm talking aboiut. Since I'm not an expert, I will defer to the experts (and who knows, perhaps they are a little off the mark, but they are currently the gold standard).

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

[engineer151515]

Please enlighten me. I'm always open to learn something.

Many thanks

[J.P.]

I will refer you to the gold standard on handgun wounding, the FBI Ballistics Workshop report. If you go immediately to pgs. 5-7, you will understand what I'm talking aboiut. Since I'm not an expert, I will defer to the experts (and who knows, perhaps they are a little off the mark, but they are currently the gold standard).

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Thank you, I'm very familiar with their conclusions.;)
I don't disagree with everything they have to say but I am also aware that they omit some things that are difficult to measure.
Eh....at any rate, they'll both kill ya' deader n' a hammer but I'll take the .40 for capacity alone.
:supergrin:

[mallet72]

what's the difference between 45GAP and 45 ACP i shoot 45ACP i know it's a more powerful round but does the GAP penetrate better. If so i would go with the 45ACP just because it has more stopping power with less chance of injury on a pass through. that's why i choose it over a 9

[Thx-1138]

what's the difference between 45GAP and 45 ACP i shoot 45ACP i know it's a more powerful round but does the GAP penetrate better. If so i would go with the 45ACP just because it has more stopping power with less chance of injury on a pass through. that's why i choose it over a 9

Check out this link (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11229926&postcount=1) for a brief write-up of the .45GAP, mostly in comparison to the .45ACP.

[UnTainted]

Go with the .40 unless all you can shoot is ball.

Personally, I don't think the .40 has that much more recoil than the 9mm, but that's probably because I do take the 460mag to the range quite often. It helps keep things in perspective, and it's my idea of a proper ".45"

[HiredGun77]

Those factory loads are designed to meet a performance standard and are not indicative of each calibers true potential. For a better comparison take a look at what Double Tap loads their ammo too. McNetts loads are right at what each caliber is capable of.

I'm sorry I allowed PA to bait me into a discussion on wounding. I posted the pictures to show actual results of the different calibers wounding potential. I took it too far. I've learned my lesson and will keep my pictures of actual field results for my own reference. I just wanted to be clear I speak from actual experience and do not rely exclusively on the work of others. I am sorry if I offended anyone.

The topic is recoil. 45Gap vs 40S&W. I can handle that and will limit my responses to the actual topic. My position is the 40S&W is capable of higher foot pounds of energy figure and will kick more than a 45Gap when using that ammo. If they are loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

[gary newport]

Those factory loads are designed to meet a performance standard and are not indicative of each calibers true potential. For a better comparison take a look at what Double Tap loads their ammo too. McNetts loads are right at what each caliber is capable of.

I'm sorry I allowed PA to bait me into a discussion on wounding. I posted the pictures to show actual results of the different calibers wounding potential. I took it too far. I've learned my lesson and will keep my pictures of actual field results for my own reference. I just wanted to be clear I speak from actual experience and do not rely exclusively on the work of others. I am sorry if I offended anyone.

The topic is recoil. 45Gap vs 40S&W. I can handle that and will limit my responses to the actual topic. My position is the 40S&W is capable of higher foot pounds of energy figure and will kick more than a 45Gap when using that ammo. If they are loaded to the same energy they will kick the same.

First, the major manufacturers loads premium defense rounds "to their potential!" Some boutique manufacturers cater to the hyper-velocity market that hasn't recognized improvements in bullet design since the days of Super-Vel.

Second, muzzle energy is NOT the singular measure of "power."

However, since you brought up Double Tap and muzzle energy, here's their numbers for comparably-weighted rounds.

.40 S&W 180 grain GDHP: 484 ft.pds.
.45 GAP 185 grain GDHP: 543 ft.pds.

Yeah, when loaded "to their potential," the .40 is "more powerful" than .45 GAP! :rofl:

Felt recoil depends on several thing besides the "power" of the load. Particularly relevant to the .40 Glocks are their 9mm-weight slides. High slide velocity is especially annoying to some of us.

[gary newport]

what's the difference between 45GAP and 45 ACP i shoot 45ACP i know it's a more powerful round but does the GAP penetrate better. If so i would go with the 45ACP just because it has more stopping power with less chance of injury on a pass through. that's why i choose it over a 9

.45 GAP and .45 ACP are essentially ballistically equivalent with identical bullet weights and standard-pressure loads.

[SDGlock23]

According to DT, same length barrels:

.40 S&W 180 grain GDHP: 519 ft.pds.
.45 GAP 185 grain GDHP: 543 ft.pds.

10 fps and 5grs difference, but that 180gr Gold Dot has a lot more sectional density too, so it will penetrate better.

Yeah, when loaded "to their potential," the .40 is "more powerful" than .45 GAP! :rofl:

I know "more powerful" can be interpreted in different ways, but I've seen the .40 put out almost 900 ft-lbs. That's not too shabby.

[SDGlock23]

Speer LE catalog (http://le.atk.com/general/speerproducts/handgun/GoldDot.aspx)

Speer LE Gold Dot .40S&W 200gr = 915FPS / 372Ft-lbs


This is intriguing to me. I'd like to try some out, and even better, get some 200gr Gold Dot's to reload with!! Load em up to around 1050-1100 fps and that would be great!

[gary newport]

According to DT, same length barrels:

.40 S&W 180 grain GDHP: 519 ft.pds.
.45 GAP 185 grain GDHP: 543 ft.pds.

10 fps and 5grs difference, but that 180gr Gold Dot has a lot more sectional density too, so it will penetrate better.



I know "more powerful" can be interpreted in different ways, but I've seen the .40 put out almost 900 ft-lbs. That's not too shabby.

Within SAAMI limits? With a bullet of high sectional density? I very much doubt it!

Once again, it ain't the muzzle velocity; it's the work done in the target, which depends on bullet design AT LEAST as much as it does on velocity.

Careful here: arguments based on a firm belief in the "fast and light" school are just going to get a :rofl: from those of us who don't buy those arguments. Such a "discussion" is likely to be a waste of time on both sides!

[gary newport]

This is intriguing to me. I'd like to try some out, and even better, get some 200gr Gold Dot's to reload with!! Load em up to around 1050-1100 fps and that would be great!

If you do that, I wouldn't want to be standing next to you when you shoot them! :shocked:

[mesteve2]

.40's were great but now I like the .45GAP better.

Recoil of the .40 s&w is NASTY!

I am happy with the GAP.

[HiredGun77]

[QUOTE=gary newport;11377016]

Second, muzzle energy is NOT the singular measure of "power."

QUOTE]

Speaking strictly recoil, what other figures need to be considered.

[gary newport]

[QUOTE=gary newport;11377016]

Second, muzzle energy is NOT the singular measure of "power."

QUOTE]

Speaking strictly recoil, what other figures need to be considered.

It starts with Newton: action produces an equal and opposite reaction. The force with which the bullet is accelerated produces an equal force in the opposite direction. Note that this depends on mass and acceleration, NOT velocity. Since the mass of the bullet is generally MUCH less than the mass of the gun, your hand doesn't get ripped off. There is one factor: the mass of the gun. All else equal, perceived recoil will be less with a heavier gun, though the actual (free) recoil will be the same. But not all else is equal: the force vector directed backward is in line with the barrel which generally lies above one's palm, leading to muzzle flip. A lower bore axis will direct more of the force vector into the palm.

With a semi-auto, the slide moves backward independently of the frame...for a short while. The slide absorbs some of the recoil initially but passes a portion of it along when it bottoms out against the frame. Higher slide velocities are going to pass more of that force along.

There are other factors involved in perceived recoil as well, including grip shape and composition.

[J.P.]

Recoil of the .40 s&w is NASTY!

compared to a .22lr....yes it is.

[gary newport]

compared to a .22lr....yes it is.

Compared to a 9mm...yes, it is!
Compared to a .45 GAP...yes, it is!
Compared to a .45 ACP...yes, it is!

Compared to a .357 Magnum...not so much! :cool:

[J.P.]

Compared to a 9mm...yes, it is!
Compared to a .45 GAP...yes, it is!
Compared to a .45 ACP...yes, it is!

Compared to a .357 Magnum...not so much! :cool:

Exclamation points even....
Oh come on Newport, don't be such a Weenie!

:tongueout:

[gary newport]

Exclamation points even....
Oh come on Newport, don't be such a Weenie!

:tongueout:

:pjmn:


(Although, I can't recall full-power .45 being called a weenie load before this! :supergrin:)

[PAGunner]

[QUOTE=HiredGun77;11378475]

It starts with Newton: action produces an equal and opposite reaction. The force with which the bullet is accelerated produces an equal force in the opposite direction. Note that this depends on mass and acceleration, NOT velocity.

Interesting, I wonder if that nasty pressure spike the .40 is notorious for causes increased acceleration in order to maximize the power to push that bullet out of the short case at the speed required to get the desired ballistics. I'm guessing much of this can be explained by the powder used with each round, but I'll be the first to admit I'm ignorant on that topic.

I definitely see how the thicker slide of the .45GAP would make felt recoil less.

[G26S239]

PF is not a true indicator or the energy that is felt by the shooter. Rerun your figures using foot pounds energy. 230 ball going 850fps (369fpe) makes less energy than a 155grain bullets going 1250fps (538fpe). Given equal weight guns generating the same foot pounds of energy the recoil will be the same. This is the simple physics rule is for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now I will admit as already pointed out that there is a different acceleration curve that the lighter bullets go through to get the same energy as the large slow round but the total amount of recoil force is the same and given a blind test I doubt anyone could tell which load was which if the muzzle energy was equal. This is why the 45 is so popular with the competition crown. It's easier to shoot.
Recoil is a function of the Law of conservation of momentum, mv = m'v'. Energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared. To figure muzzle energy for a load at it's muzzle = bullet weight (in grains) X velocity (in feet per second) squared divided by 450240 or 450400 depending on where you round the gravitational constant. I have two loads for the 40 and 45 ACP with close to equal energy, a Corbon 135 grain JHP @ 1300 fps = 507 ft lbs and a Corbon 200 grain JHP @ 1050 fps = 490 ft lbs. The 135 grain bullet has a power factor of 175.5 and the 200 grain JHP has a power factor of 210. With close to equal energy the heavier bullet clearly has greater momentum and therefore, greater recoil.

[Snowman92D]

I will refer you to the gold standard on handgun wounding, the FBI Ballistics Workshop report. Since I'm not an expert, I will defer to the experts...

Not all of us are in awe of what the folks involved in that "gold standard" report had to say. "Expert" theory has to square with observed reality, or it's useless.

[PAGunner]

Not all of us are in awe of what the folks involved in that "gold standard" report had to say. "Expert" theory has to square with observed reality, or it's useless.

Are you saying that the stretch caused by temporary cavity is a significant wounding mechanism in handgun rounds? I'd like to see what "reality" you base your opinions on, and I don't mean that in an argumentative kinda way, I'd really like to know what you are looking at.

No one is perfect, but the FBI spends a good amount of resources on researching issues like this, they also have some reasonably intelligent and educated people doing this research. I think their conclusions are spot on personally, but if I was to see credible research and real life shootings of small/hot handgun rounds causing significant wounding by tearing peripheral tissue, I'd consider it, until then.... Bullets are not magic, they make holes, people bleed out, nervous system can be taken out, bones can be broken, and will (psychological) can be shattered, this is what stops threats. When people discuss "high energy rounds", well you have to articulate to me exactly how it will do any one of those better than a larger round.

Btw, this is coming from a guy who more often than not carries a 9mm (I have been carrying my .45 because I am finally shooting it almost as well as my 9mm). My personal opinion is all modern high quality duty rounds are more than adequate. 9mm, .40 and .45, there are only marginal differences between the rounds, all having their own advantages. Even heavy & slow v. fast & light within a caliber, I don't think there is much difference, I think the ability to shoot the weapon well (quick, accurate and under SD conditions) trumps all.

[Snowman92D]

I'd like to see what "reality" you base your opinions on...

How many gunfights does the FBI get in to annually, on the average?

If I were gonna pick a federal LE agency to model my ballistic choices after, I think I'd at least pick one that gets involved in a lot of shootings...and see what they've learned to do where the rubber meets the road. That comes closer to being a "gold standard" of reality than a theoretical study that's about 20 years old.

[gary newport]

How many gunfights does the FBI get in to annually, on the average?

If I were gonna pick a federal LE agency to model my ballistic choices after, I think I'd at least pick one that gets involved in a lot of shootings...and see what they've learned to do where the rubber meets the road. That comes closer to being a "gold standard" of reality than a theoretical study that's about 20 years old.

Why not pick all of them?

[Snowman92D]

Not a bad idea. Be useful if someone could make it happen. :bluesbrothers:

[Halojumper]

If I were gonna pick a federal LE agency to model my ballistic choices after, I think I'd at least pick one that gets involved in a lot of shootings...

You mean like Denver? :whistling:

[Halojumper]

delete...double post...

[Snowman92D]

You mean like Denver?

If I had to pick one fed police agency with a lot of shootings, it'd have
to be U.S. Border Patrol.

[PAGunner]

How many gunfights does the FBI get in to annually, on the average?

If I were gonna pick a federal LE agency to model my ballistic choices after, I think I'd at least pick one that gets involved in a lot of shootings...and see what they've learned to do where the rubber meets the road. That comes closer to being a "gold standard" of reality than a theoretical study that's about 20 years old.

You still haven't answered my question. FBI has the quality and quantity of resources that are needed to conduct such a study with credibility, other departments don't have that. FBI looked at their own study and concluded the G23 suits them the best, I came to a different conclusion, but I certainly respect their work in the study of ballistics.

[BOGE]

This thread, like the .45 GAP, refuses to die!! :supergrin::tongueout:

[Halojumper]

If I had to pick one fed police agency with a lot of shootings, it'd have
to be U.S. Border Patrol.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. There was a time there when Denver was shooting everything that moved. :)

[EL COLONEL]

So what IS the answer to the op's question ? WHICH is better ? :dunno:

[gary newport]

So what IS the answer to the op's question ? WHICH is better ? :dunno:

It depends. :supergrin:

[Preußen]

So what IS the answer to the op's question ? WHICH is better ? :dunno:
to quote Patrick Swayze from the movie Road House - "opinions vary"

[Halojumper]

So what IS the answer to the op's question ? WHICH is better ? :dunno:


They can't even agree which better between the 45's, which are functionally identical, so I wouldn't hold out much hope on getting this decided here.

[Snowman92D]

You still haven't answered my question. FBI has the quality and quantity of resources that are needed to conduct such a study with credibility, other departments don't have that.

I answered your question. Apparently you just didn't like the answer.

The U.S. Border Patrol conducts their own ballistic testing at their National Firearms Unit in Altoona, PA. The U.S. Secret Service does their own ballistic testing at their facility at Beltsville, MD. What makes their tests any less "credible" than the ones the FBI does? Each agency tailors their performance standards to the perceived needs of their agents. I was just pointing out that when it comes to "gold standards", wouldn't it be better to base one's choices on an agency that has access to practical data that keeps their theoretical data honest?

The U.S. Border Patrol conducts an ongoing review of the numerous shootings their field agents are involved in. The results of their lab tests have to square with the reality of the bullet performance they see in real gunfights. Lab testing can give you a good preliminary idea of how a bullet will perform in a real gunfight, but you reach a point where field results are what you're looking for. The best "science" is, and has always been, "direct observation"...independent of "theory". Seems to me that by scientific standards the Border Patrol's method is certainly more "credible"...unless one is simply interested in talking about theory.

The FBI issues a reduced velocity 165-grain .40 caliber load for its agents. The Border Patrol issues a 155-grain .40 caliber load with an enhanced (i.e. higher than normal) velocity. Take your pick. But if you're cutting things fine and looking for an edge, a lot of folks would rather make choices based on studies that go beyond 15 or 20 year old laboratory theory.

[PAGunner]

I answered your question. Apparently you just didn't like the answer.

The U.S. Border Patrol conducts their own ballistic testing at their National Firearms Unit in Altoona, PA. The U.S. Secret Service does their own ballistic testing at their facility at Beltsville, MD. What makes their tests any less "credible" than the ones the FBI does? Each agency tailors their performance standards to the perceived needs of their agents. I was just pointing out that when it comes to "gold standards", wouldn't it be better to base one's choices on an agency that has access to practical data that keeps their theoretical data honest?

The U.S. Border Patrol conducts an ongoing review of the numerous shootings their field agents are involved in. The results of their lab tests have to square with the reality of the bullet performance they see in real gunfights. Lab testing can give you a good preliminary idea of how a bullet will perform in a real gunfight, but you reach a point where field results are what you're looking for. The best "science" is, and has always been, "direct observation"...independent of "theory". Seems to me that by scientific standards the Border Patrol's method is certainly more "credible"...unless one is simply interested in talking about theory.

The FBI issues a reduced velocity 165-grain .40 caliber load for its agents. The Border Patrol issues a 155-grain .40 caliber load with an enhanced (i.e. higher than normal) velocity. Take your pick. But if you're cutting things fine and looking for an edge, a lot of folks would rather make choices based on studies that go beyond 15 or 20 year old laboratory theory.

Wow, great post, you've educated me, I didn't know the Border Patrol & Secret Service perform their own ballistics tests, nor did I know they compare real world results to lab results. I certainly understand what you mean about "direct observation" (real world results) v. theory very well, I'm in medical school and this is exactly how medicine works.

This post answered my question much more fully than your last post did, thank you for taking the time to articulate what you meant. Btw, do you have any access to reports that the border patrol or secret service have regarding ballistics tests? If you happen to have access, I'd love to read any and all you have.