Ever seen jackets sheer off before having a chance to enter the target?

[emt1581]

Has anyone ever seen copper jacketing sheer off when trying to penetrate certain materials (thick glass, wood, etc.)?

I'm just thinking that if the point of a HP is to flower/mushroom, but the jacket is not even making it to the entrance of the target...what good is it really doing over a FMJ/Ball round?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[Minuteman]

You now see why militaries prefer FMJ for most uses. Penetration is usually more important to them than expansion.

All HP's will begin to disintergrate upon hitting a solid object. How much stays together depends on the bullet and the material in question.

[emt1581]

You now see why militaries prefer FMJ for most uses. Penetration is usually more important to them than expansion.

All HP's will begin to disintergrate upon hitting a solid object. How much stays together depends on the bullet and the material in question.

Is there one or two rounds that will penetrate auto glass, dense wood, etc. FAR better than the rest?

I'm just thinking that if in a SD situation and during a car jacking, for example, I have to fire THROUGH glass...if the jacket sheers off, what good was it in the first place? By the time it enters the BG I'm down to a lead ball/blob.

I'm wondering how many people actually carry FMJ in their PISTOL for defense??

I've never heard anyone say "Well unless it's point blank and there are no barriers to shoot through...an HP won't do you much good!"...but it really does seem that way.

Then again, if even one of the petals makes it into the target/BG it could still to a bunch of dammage.

-Emt1581

[Minuteman]

Most rounds that police use are tested to penetrate auto glass. So if you use what the cops use they have done all the testing for you to try to find the right balance of penetration, expantion, and weight retention.

Speer Gold Dots, Corbon DPX, Hordady TAP, Federal Ranger, etc.

[emt1581]

Most rounds that police use are tested to penetrate auto glass. So if you use what the cops use they have done all the testing for you to try to find the right balance of penetration, expantion, and weight retention.

Speer Gold Dots, Corbon DPX, Hordady TAP, Federal Ranger, etc.

Actually the round in question WAS Ranger...

-Emt1581

[Ak.Hiker]

I have tested all kinds of bullets over the years through wood. If the wood is hard enough even some FMJ's can show some expansion. I have seen the Speer 200 grain TMJ in 45 auto +P expand a little but the bullet held together.
The toughest bullets I have ever tested is the CorBon Penetrator line. The Sierra FPJ bullets are about as tough as FMJ's and really penetrate. About the toughest expanding bullet I have tested is the Nosler Partition Gold. Expansion stops as soon as the petals get back to the Partition about 1/3rd of the way back. In self defence bullets the Speer Gold Dots are a good combination of expansion and penetration. Being bonded they hold their jacket. Gold Dots as well as the Speer TMJ's are really good at holding on to their jackets. As far as FMJ bullets go some brands have thicker jackets than others. The Hornady FMJ's are tough and so are the Remington MC.

[Minuteman]

Actually the round in question WAS Ranger...

-Emt1581

There's a white paper floating around of FBI testing on various popular HP rounds on windshield penetration that would list the specific performance of Ranger and the others.

The general gist of it was that most high quality HP rounds of heavier weight did very well against auto glass and other common barriers.
Lighter weight rounds, even the same brand, tend to have difficulty penetrating or poor bullet weight retention after penetration. Poor bullet weight retention would have poor bad guy penetration after passing thru the barrier.
The "fancy" specialized/gimick rounds like Glasser saftey rounds and Federal(Expansion) EFMJ rounds sucked big time and frequently failed to penetrate at all or turned to dust after penetration.
If your concerned with barrier penetration stick to the slightly heavier side of high quality HP rounds used by police. Stay away from the super light and specialty gimick rounds.
You may be able to find the FBI paper, kind of obscure (local police also do the same testing but they are not supposed to release those results) or just check the Box o' truth website. They had virtually the same results.

I remember Speer Gold Dots was one of the top performers, which is what I already carry.

ETA: for the 5.56 mm rifle, the Hornady TAP match 75gr BTHP and Sierra match 77 gr HP were clear winners in the barrier tests among HP's and FMJ also did very well and have proven to be reliable performers. The main advantage for police, in rifle rounds, with HP over FMJ is the fear of over penetration and downrange effect.

[sigcalcatrant]

You now see why militaries prefer FMJ for most uses. Penetration is usually more important to them than expansion.

All HP's will begin to disintergrate upon hitting a solid object. How much stays together depends on the bullet and the material in question.''Militaries'' use FMJ because they HAVE to, not because they want to. Most would choose JHP, in handgun rounds, if they were ALLOWED to. Bonded bullets usually stay together.

[Dr. Courtney]

A lot of convfentional JHPs will lose their jacket in auto glass or sheet metal some of the time. I would trust Speer Gold Dot and Corbon DPX not to lose their jacket in just about any situation.

Michael Courtney

[emt1581]

There's a white paper floating around of FBI testing on various popular HP rounds on windshield penetration that would list the specific performance of Ranger and the others.

The general gist of it was that most high quality HP rounds of heavier weight did very well against auto glass and other common barriers.
Lighter weight rounds, even the same brand, tend to have difficulty penetrating or poor bullet weight retention after penetration. Poor bullet weight retention would have poor bad guy penetration after passing thru the barrier.
The "fancy" specialized/gimick rounds like Glasser saftey rounds and Federal(Expansion) EFMJ rounds sucked big time and frequently failed to penetrate at all or turned to dust after penetration.
If your concerned with barrier penetration stick to the slightly heavier side of high quality HP rounds used by police. Stay away from the super light and specialty gimick rounds.
You may be able to find the FBI paper, kind of obscure (local police also do the same testing but they are not supposed to release those results) or just check the Box o' truth website. They had virtually the same results.

I remember Speer Gold Dots was one of the top performers, which is what I already carry.

ETA: for the 5.56 mm rifle, the Hornady TAP match 75gr BTHP and Sierra match 77 gr HP were clear winners in the barrier tests among HP's and FMJ also did very well and have proven to be reliable performers. The main advantage for police, in rifle rounds, with HP over FMJ is the fear of over penetration and downrange effect.


Sounds like the Gold Dots I've been planning on buying are the answer...in a heavier weight. Like 147gr. for 9mm?

Thanks!

-Emt1581

[Dr. Courtney]

Any weight Gold Dots will hold together penetrating auto glass and sheet metal, and the more energetic (lighter) weights will do a better job.

A heavier bullet is sometimes an advantage penetrating soft tissue, but at any given diameter, more energy is the key to penetrating rigid barriers like glass and metal, and gives a better chance at expanding after penetrating the barrier.

Michael Courtney

Michael Courtney

[emt1581]

Any weight Gold Dots will hold together penetrating auto glass and sheet metal, and the more energetic (lighter) weights will do a better job.

A heavier bullet is sometimes an advantage penetrating soft tissue, but at any given diameter, more energy is the key to penetrating rigid barriers like glass and metal, and gives a better chance at expanding after penetrating the barrier.

Michael Courtney

Michael Courtney

That seems to contradict a previous poster...

Either of you have any proof? Not being a jerk, just curious who is really right.

Thanks!:)

-Emt1581

[Pardoner]

The jacket is of little importance to me once the bullet leaves the barrel. If the remaining mass can reach 12" in gel without the jacket, than the bullet has done its job in my book.

If I placed it properly, the remaining mass will still penetrate vital organs.

If you look at the ATK ballistics tests. They are skewing Win's jacket separation as a negative. What I see as being FAR more important is that after the windshields, Win's rounds are getting closer to the golden 12" mark.

A shallow wound that doesn't make it deep enough, with or without the jacket is still a shallow wound that didn't make it deep enough.

[Dandapani]

Standard Rem Golden Sabers have been known to lose their jackets... :whistling:

[agentl074]

I like Gold Dots - good bullet.