View Full Version : RUN AND HIDE: Our Police Advise Public to Not Confront Burglars Inside Their Home
LanceOregon
09-29-2008, 03:52
Our local police force made a number of statements to our local news media ( both newspaper, and multiple TV news programs ) today, warning the public to NOT confront burglars that are stealing things from their home. They said that doing this is very dangerous, and should be left to the police. They said that the best thing to do is to retreat and hide in a safe place, and dial 911.
The police made these statements after a man tackled and overpowered a burglar as he was leaving the man's home with a duffel bag full of stolen property early Sunday morning. The man held the burglar for over 10 minutes, until the police arrived and took him into custody. Police said that what the man did was the wrong thing to do.
Here is a link to the coverage that one of our local TV news programs gave to this story tonight:
http://kezi.com/news/local/48799
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??
.
Huntsman
09-29-2008, 04:03
I just need an excuse to use the 26" ASP baton I keep by my bed.
if everyone runs and hides criminals would rob anyone they wanted without
worrying about a thing.
if everyone fought back criminals would think twice about robbing people.
passive101
09-29-2008, 05:25
I love how stupid sheep logic is :)
Forgoten214
09-29-2008, 05:26
Thats nice, Its almost as good as the duck and cover in the 50s for nuclear drills.
Minuteman
09-29-2008, 05:29
It was the wrong thing to do. Instead, the home owner should have repeatedly slapped the burglar with the back of his hand until he begged him to call the cops.
BManoftheyear
09-29-2008, 05:32
he should of shot the dumb ass
Our local police force made a number of statements to our local news media ( both newspaper, and multiple TV news programs ) today, warning the public to NOT confront burglars that are stealing things from their home. They said that doing this is very dangerous, and should be left to the police. They said that the best thing to do is to retreat and hide in a safe place, and dial 911..
Yeah. After all, that policy is so effective in Great Britain.:upeyes::upeyes::upeyes:
briansp82593
09-29-2008, 06:11
Yeah. After all, that policy is so effective in Britain.:upeyes::upeyes::upeyes:
Fixed :wavey:
In this case, it's "job security" for the police!
References to "sheep" and "Great Britain" are appropriate, too.
What gets me is the police advise women to fight back in rape cases.....
What we really need is more burglars ending up dead......that would make more potential thieves think twice about going down that path.
hog
chowchow
09-29-2008, 06:34
Choose another chief of police. The present one will encourage nore burglars to do their craft knowing the victims will just huddle and do nothing.
slewfoot
09-29-2008, 06:41
What happens when the burglars are not satisfied with just stealing your possessions?
Forgoten214
09-29-2008, 06:46
What happens when the burglars are not satisfied with just stealing your possessions?
They will, Dont worry. The police are here to protect you.
OBAMA 08
H&K .45 AUTO
09-29-2008, 07:04
I think a lot of it comes down to the perception of liability. Our society has gotten so lawsuit happy that a lot of people won't tell you what they REALLY think anymore. Instead, they try to think of what response they could give that is least likely to get them served with civil process papers and cost them money.
If the police advocated taking on a burglar in your home, think of what could go wrong. On one hand, you have a homeowner who attempts to interupt a burglary in progress and is beaten/stabbed/shot by the criminal(s). That homeowner, or their surviving relatives then sues the city/county/state by claiming that they were told by the police to confront the crook, and were never WARNED that it could get them hurt/killed.
On the other hand, you take the same scenario... Only this time it's the burglar who gets beaten/shot/stabbed. In that case, the bad guy sues the homeowner AND the city/county/state because the homeowner engaged in law enforcement activities at the direction of the police, and without the appropriate training that could have prevented or at least minimized injury to the suspect during apprehension.
I actually know a guy that used to own one of those "Quick-Lube" type oil change businesses. His shop had two open pits, rather than lifts in the bays. One night, while the place was closed... Some moron decided to break into the shop and try to steal the safe. While walking through the work area to the office from the area where he had forced entry, this reject falls into one of the pits and breaks his leg, collarbone, wrist, and some fingers.
The dirtbag was arrested after being found inside the place, but he sued the owner of the shop because there had not been any lights on inside of the place after hours to prevent someone from falling into one of the pits. Guess what... The lowlife WON the lawsuit! That's how pathetic our system has gotten. We basically punish crime victims in this country for creating an unsafe work environment for criminals. That shop has several lights on inside every night now, although it is now owned by another person.
My point is... What the police say publicly, and what they really think are not always the same thing. Society has gotten to a point where it seems the majority want a "kinder, gentler" police force. If, as a society we stop videotaping everytime we see a cop getting physical with a person who is resisting arrest, or stop awarding judgements in civil court when a bad guy wants to whine because an officer whipped his a$% for being a scumbag... Maybe things will change. Until then... Expect more of the same.
Well my thoughts.
1. Running up and tackling a burglar that has already left your house is a pretty stupid thing to do. You have no idea if the burglar is armed, you have no idea of his physical condition or fighting abilities, you have no idea if he has friends waiting outside.
2. Letting a burglar get all the way into your home (while you are home), find and collect your good stuff, and get out before you act is pretty stupid. Your whole security system has failed. He breached your door locks, he bypassed your security system, and your dogs didn't alert you to an intruder. You should have known as the burglar was trying to enter your home or shortly there after that someone was in your home.
I agree with the chief of police, the home owner should not have ran outside and tackled the burglar.
He should have shot the burglar inside his home.
FWIW many firearms trainers teach you to do exactly what the chief of police said to do if someone breaks into your home. Dial 911 and take up a defensive position, wait for the intruder to come to you, don't go searching you house looking for them.
FreakyBig
09-29-2008, 07:06
I would probably drag him back inside.... :whistling:
cowboywannabe
09-29-2008, 07:10
run and hide from burglars in your own home? it must suck to live in England bro.
That's a fairly standard answer for all LEO's speaking through their attorneys.
Hell,if we caught,put in the hospital,or killed all the BG's their job would be even more irrelevent that it is right now. The police officers are there simply to take statements, for the DA, after the fact. Ask a typical LEO that has 20 or so years on the force this question. "How many perps have you arrested while comitting the felony" ?? If they are truthful,they will probably be able to count the number on one hand.
Ask a LEO if they are responsible for your safety and see what they say. Ask them if they will be there to protect you and your family from the BG's and see what they will say. When seconds count,the police are only minutes(sometimes 20+ minutes) away.
You are responsible for the safety of yourself and your family. While at home AND out in public places. Make sure to never,ever bring a knife,baseball bat,golf club,etc, to a gunfight. This especially in your home.
Get a permit,get a firearm,get trained,get aware of your local laws,and do the job yourself.
There are some great LEO's out there and I know that most are doing all the can. Problem is.....their hands are "tied" and they,the DA's, and the judges wont admit it. Given this,it is the average civilian,homeowner,that will become the victum. I WILL protect myself and my family. They can talk,I will act.
H&K .45 AUTO
09-29-2008, 07:27
That's a fairly standard answer for all LEO's speaking through their attorneys.
Hell,if we caught,put in the hospital,or killed all the BG's their job would be even more irrelevent that it is right now. The police officers are there simply to take statements, for the DA, after the fact. Ask a typical LEO that has 20 or so years on the force this question. "How many perps have you arrested while comitting the felony" ?? If they are truthful,they will probably be able to count the number on one hand.
Ask a LEO if they are responsible for your safety and see what they say. Ask them if they will be there to protect you and your family from the BG's and see what they will say. When seconds count,the police are only minutes(sometimes 20+ minutes) away.
You are responsible for the safety of yourself and your family. While at home AND out in public places. Make sure to never,ever bring a knife,baseball bat,golf club,etc, to a gunfight. This especially in your home.
Get a permit,get a firearm,get trained,get aware of your local laws,and do the job yourself.
There are some great LEO's out there and I know that most are doing all the can. Problem is.....their hands are "tied" and they,the DA's, and the judges wont admit it. Given this,it is the average civilian,homeowner,that will become the victum. I WILL protect myself and my family. They can talk,I will act.
Very good posting. And right along the lines of what I'm trying to say with my post. I've been an LEO for 7 years now, and I can assure you that we do what we can.
But, between the fact that we're streched very thin, the public doesn't want to see us "beating" people, our attorney's tell us to be careful what we do/say publicly, and our criminal justice system after the time of arrest (Courts/Corrections/Parole/Probation) is a failure... Crooks aren't afraid to be crooks, and they don't fear the consequences of their actions.
I can't tell you publicly to take matters into your own hands. I CAN tell you though that in my own home... The chances of a bad guy who is dumb enough to come in while I'm at home walking out, or breathing/eating/urinating/etc. without medical assistance ever again, is slim.
Regarding the comment of the number of in progress felonies I've interupted... Lot's. But, there are a lot of things that constitute a felony. If we're talking burglaries specifically here... 2. One residential, and one commercial. I've probably taken close to 500 burglary reports AFTER the fact. That's not a good average, but it's the norm.
I agree with the assessment that every private citizen is the person primarily responsible for their own personal safey, security. My job is to document, investigate, and seek prosecution after a crime has occurred. On rare occasion, we get lucky and get to take action while the crime is taking place, but that is rare.
Again... Good posting. Spot on.
M2 Carbine
09-29-2008, 08:21
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??
I'd wait until he got outside then shoot him. No sense getting blood on the carpet.
(and yes in Texas that would be perfectly legal to use deadly force to recover property)
I just need an excuse to use the 26" ASP baton I keep by my bed.
I hope you got more than a ASP to use if someone breaks into your house.
Crusher47
09-29-2008, 09:04
Fixed :wavey:
:rofl:Well Done Sir! :rofl:
How do you collect your entire family and "hide" without being detected?
Or do you just leave your other family members to their own luck?
Why is the burglar there in the first place?
To rape, abduct, or murder someone or to set a fire or cause an explosion.
Remember, Burglary is the "unlawful entry or remaining for the purpose of committing a felony or theft." Always presume the worst about criminal intruders. That burglar is quite likely there to commit a rape or a thrill killing. In some cases, the criminal has already located and cut the telephone line before entering the home. Why would you let him go? So that he can kill you more efficiently next time? If I'm alert and in my own home, what would I be hiding and allowing the burglar to leave for? Why wouldn't I secure a weapon and lay an ambush for the intruder, killing him first? That makes more sense, doesn't it? :drillsgt:
357wheelgunner
09-29-2008, 09:25
They don't want people to bow down to criminals, but if some dude is out of your house with a duffle bag full of posessions, I'd say just let him go. It's not worth getting stabbed over. The Chief is also trying to protect his liability. If he said, "Please, overzealous vigalante wannabe types, start fistfights with insane crackheads who are stealing your property", someone would eventually get stabbed with a sharpened screwdriver and the Chief's department would be sued.
I've had pistol sights lined up to shoot a guy who broke into my house. I didn't fire. He posed no threat to me, I made the right choice. It's bull**** that he broke into my garage and stole a ****ty 13" TV, but not enough for me to go through the trouble of shooting him over it, in a non Castle Doctrine state.
3rdgen40
09-29-2008, 09:42
I don't run and hide from anything or anyone.If some assclown is dumb enough to break into my house he will be facing the business end of my Glock 23....
yerscattergun
09-29-2008, 10:04
Thank God I live in Texas. He would have been ventilated with
some 00 buck from my 870 to release the demons...:supergrin:
Did it say dial 1911 or 911? confused and focusing on the front sight. :supergrin:
Our local police force made a number of statements to our local news media ( both newspaper, and multiple TV news programs ) today, warning the public to NOT confront burglars that are stealing things from their home. They said that doing this is very dangerous, and should be left to the police. They said that the best thing to do is to retreat and hide in a safe place, and dial 911.
The police made these statements after a man tackled and overpowered a burglar as he was leaving the man's home with a duffel bag full of stolen property early Sunday morning. The man held the burglar for over 10 minutes, until the police arrived and took him into custody. Police said that what the man did was the wrong thing to do.
Here is a link to the coverage that one of our local TV news programs gave to this story tonight:
http://kezi.com/news/local/48799
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??
. YOUR from a LIBERAL State that wants NOBAMA for President. What the hell do you think their gonna say???:rofl:
Yellowfin
09-29-2008, 12:08
YOUR from a LIBERAL State that wants NOBAMA for President. What the hell do you think their gonna say???:rofl:Liberalism is absolutely no excuse for the anti 2A and anti self defense garbage that goes on in the worst coast.
LanceOregon
09-29-2008, 13:16
Choose another chief of police. The present one will encourage nore burglars to do their craft knowing the victims will just huddle and do nothing.
Our Chief of Police recently interviewed to be the Chief of Police in Elk Grove, California:
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/RG/Home/story.csp?cid=129138&sid=1&fid=1
So he may not be around much longer.
.
LanceOregon
09-29-2008, 13:18
YOUR from a LIBERAL State that wants NOBAMA for President. What the hell do you think their gonna say???:rofl:
Kerry got 68% of the vote in our city in the last election.
Oregon is not that liberal. Our gun laws are very lax, and we are a shall issue CCW state. Instant background checks with no waiting periods too.
Even machine guns and silencers can be purchased in Oregon.
.
LanceOregon
09-29-2008, 13:25
I hope you got more than a ASP to use if someone breaks into your house.
Why did S&W stop making the ASP, anyway? I had always thought that it was a pretty cool pistol:
http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/ASP_05web.jpg
Why did S&W stop making the ASP, anyway? I had always thought that it was a pretty cool pistol:
http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/ASP_05web.jpg
S+W didn't make the ASP. Paris Theodore made the ASP as a custom pistol based on the S+W Model 39.
S+W came out with the 469 and 669, pretty much a double stack commercial version of the ASP. It was later replaced by the 6904 and 6906. All are found on the used market.
S+W still makes the 908
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/103882_thumb.jpg
The 3913
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/104531_thumb.jpg
The CS9
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/103887_thumb.jpg
And the CS45
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/103014_thumb.jpg
The CS9 and CS45 are probably as close to the ASP as you can get commercially.
Apocalypse_Now
09-29-2008, 15:05
OK, I'll let my Rottweilers confront the burglar, while leaving the cellphone call to 911 open so they can hear the screams ;)
Coldcases
09-29-2008, 15:18
And remember, when the possibility of someone ending your life can be measured in seconds, the police are just minutes away.
Doc
if my dogs dont get the intruder , my 12g pump sure as hell will.
OperatorX
09-29-2008, 15:30
These announcements are made towards the lowest common denominator. It's very sound advice for those that aren't as gun/tactic savy as the people in the GT community. The police weren't speaking to any of us here.
GlockFish
09-29-2008, 15:36
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??
.
It sounds like your Community needs an Organizer.
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??
.
This is "programming" you will need when Obama takes office. As Barack begins his reign of "supremacy" in the nation's highest office, there will need to be compliance with "authorities".As guns will have no place in law-abiding citizen's hands.. leave it all up to the po-po.
ME personally.. I'd have recovered my stolen property from him and held a 357 to his head as I awaited "authorities". If he had made a move.. boom
TexasFats
09-29-2008, 17:31
My preferred way of dealing with burglers is to have a couple of big dogs, at least one of which will apply "Alsatian Acupuncture" to the burgler's groin area.
hardballing
09-29-2008, 17:45
S+W didn't make the ASP. Paris Theodore made the ASP as a custom pistol based on the S+W Model 39.
I thought Alex Devel made the ASP. Huh, live and learn I guess.
Clyde in CO
09-29-2008, 17:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAoAMHRj3TA
I thought Alex Devel made the ASP. Huh, live and learn I guess.
Everything I've read says that Paris Theodore made the original ASP.
Did some searching around and it looks like someone named J Deval in the UK has or does make an ASP 2000, an updated version of the ASP in Stainless.
http://asp2000.webeden.co.uk/#
Don't see anyway to order one though.
Oregon...I can smell the patchouli oil from here...
The_Gun_Guru
10-01-2008, 12:35
Tell me, what would you do if you spotted a burglar leaving your home with a bag full of your property?? Would you jump on him and beat him up, like this fellow did??.
I would chase him for sure to try and catch him or get a description, but if he made the slightest threatening move, he would get shot!
In FL, we no longer have a "duty to retreat"!
Any cop that tells you to run and hide should be fired from the force IMMEDIATELY!!!!! These are useless cops and serve no purpose but to cause panic and fear among the sheeple!
Any cops on here disagree with the idea of hiding in a corner? Please chime in!!!!!
TGG
Yeah lets play Hide and Seek and if you lose this game you may lose your life. Just pure
idiocy on display by this department. Someone should ask these officers if they run and hide and wait for the police when someone breaks in on them, after all they are not on duty.
Most security experts will recommend gathering all family members into one defensible location and calling 911 if you suspect someone has broken into your house.
This isn't because they want you run and hide and cower in a corner. It is because it is incredibly dangerous for one person to attempt to clear a house. Hole up, dial 911, and let the police clear the house.
Personally, I have no desire to play hide and seek with someone who may be armed over a few material possessions that are insured and easily replaced.
Of course, that's just me. If you're comfortable wandering around in the dark looking for someone who may be armed and hiding, just waiting for you to show yourself, good for you. You've got bigger cajones than I. Not as much sense, maybe, but bigger cajones.
Thx-1138
10-01-2008, 14:03
In NC, can't use deadly force in defense of property, so if, as in this case, I caught him trying to leave with my stuff, I'd probably hit him with some FoxLabs Mean Green and call the cops.
I'm guessing he'd drop my stuff, and run/stumble away. The cops should have a relatively easy time catching him (Hint: it's the guy with a green face).
Glock_Wenc_21
10-01-2008, 14:11
If someone comes into the house you better believe these bad boys are coming out to play!!
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k474/wenc5454/MVC-010F.jpg
http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k474/wenc5454/DSC00868.jpg
Glock_Wenc_21
10-01-2008, 14:13
Oh BTW the shotgun is not mine snapped that pic at friends house
The_Gun_Guru
10-01-2008, 14:28
Of course, that's just me. If you're comfortable wandering around in the dark looking for someone who may be armed and hiding, just waiting for you to show yourself, good for you.
And if you're comfortable being a victim, well, that's cool too.
Personally, I refuse to be a victim in my own home! I got my CCW in 1991 because I refuse to be a victim in public as well. Remember, in YOUR home YOU have the advantage! You know the layout. You know where the hiding places are. Mr. BG does not!
I'm a patient man. When he gets tired of waiting for me to show myself, that's when his life is done!!!
Don't worry, I'll take a few pics after I call 9-1-1 to post on the forum!!!:rofl:
Glockdude1
10-01-2008, 14:50
Run & hide????
In Texas the burglars are the ones that will NEED 911........
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/images/smilies/twoguns.gif
The_Gun_Guru
10-01-2008, 15:27
Run & hide????
In Texas the burglars are the ones that will NEED 911........
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/images/smilies/twoguns.gif
FL too!!!! Two woeds for you....
CASTLE DOCTRINE.
And in FL, the carjackers are dead as well, because the CD extends to our vehicles as well:wow:
You gotta love states that actually care about their residents!:hearts:
All people willing to go into someone else's home, to steal, plunder, rape, mame or mollest, need multiple, large holes in their head, chest cavity and intestines...The larger... the better... and IMHO, there needs to be a Federal Castle Doctrine...
This country was much better off when people were expected and willing to stomp their own snakes. (Line stolen from Louis Dearborn Lamour)
The animals on the street know that Americans have been conditioned not to fight back, and they profit from it. Crime should be an extremely dangerous business in which to become involved. Instead, by learning how to manipulate the system, the animals avoid punishment. The fleas are running the dog.
And if you're comfortable being a victim, well, that's cool too.
Personally, I refuse to be a victim in my own home! I got my CCW in 1991 because I refuse to be a victim in public as well. Remember, in YOUR home YOU have the advantage! You know the layout. You know where the hiding places are. Mr. BG does not!
I'm a patient man. When he gets tired of waiting for me to show myself, that's when his life is done!!!
Don't worry, I'll take a few pics after I call 9-1-1 to post on the forum!!!:rofl:
Using common sense is not being a victim. Professionals who are trained in how to properly clear buildings avoid clearing buildings alone if at all possible. If you think you can clear a building with no chance of ending up dead or injured than you are simply delusional.
My goal if someone breaks into my house is to keep myself and my family safe. The best way to do that is to stay put in a defensible location and call 911, staying connected until the police arrive. By doing that, I reduce the chance of being injured to something close to zero. No matter how well I know my own home, if I go out and wander around in the dark looking for someone to blow away so I can post pictures on the internet, the odds of being killed or injured rise dramatically. If I am killed or injured, the odds of someone in my family also being killed or injured also go up dramatically.
If someone attempts to do me or mine harm, I have no problem pulling the trigger, but I'm not going to shoot someone over a TV or a DVD player or any other material object. That's why I pay for replacement value insurance.
BTW, I've got you beat on the CCW. I've had mine since 1988 and never leave the house without a gun.
I guess it depends on where you live...
My state has adopted the Castle Doctrine, and I won't be hiding or running anywhere. Instead intruders are welcome to about 30+ rounds of 5.56mm 75 gr Hornady TAP T2 via my Colt LE6920 carbine. And I have no qualms about taking them out with "extreme prejudice"... in layman's terms, it ain't going to be pretty.
Run and hide... I doubt it.
I guess it depends on where you live...
My state has adopted the Castle Doctrine, and I won't be hiding or running anywhere. Instead intruders are welcome to about 30+ rounds of 5.56mm 75 gr Hornady TAP T2 via my Colt LE6920 carbine. And I have no qualms about taking them out with "extreme prejudice"... in layman's terms, it ain't going to be pretty.
Run and hide... I doubt it.
Well, Florida has the Castle Doctrine as well. Doesn't mean a thing to me. I'm still not going to shoot anyone unless they are a threat. And stealing my TV doesn't constitute a threat.
I'm not saying such folks don't deserve a few good rounds in vital places, but I'm not going to be the one to do put them there unless it becomes absolutely necessary.
Even if you're a stone cold killer and taking someone's life doesn't bother you, the aftermath of such an event can take its toll. If nothing else it can be a big problem financially. No matter how justified you think you are, shooting someone 30 times with what the media considers an assault rifle might just get you charged with a crime. Defending yourself will get expensive. And once that is over, the civil suits start. Being acquitted in a criminal trial doesn't mean someone can't win a civil suit. Just ask OJ.
So, if at all possible, I'll just leave the criminal shooting to the police and those civilians who dream of such things with a big smile on their face.
Naptown34
10-01-2008, 18:04
"Bam, Bam, Bam!!!...I felt threatened for my life. I'd like to speak with my lawyer now."
Agonizer
10-01-2008, 18:14
"Bam, Bam, Bam!!!... I felt threatened for my life. I'd like to speak with my lawyer now."
Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam,Bam, Bam, Bam,Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam,Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam, Bam.
"I felt threatened for my life. I'd like to speak with my lawyer now." :shocked:
The_Gun_Guru
10-01-2008, 19:01
"Bam, Bam, Bam!!!...I felt threatened for my life. I'd like to speak with my lawyer now."
Words to live by!!!
We have the RIGHT to remain SILENT, so use it, but not until you go on record with the SEVEN most important words every CCW holder needs to know:
"I was in fear for my life"
TGG
NY Glock
10-01-2008, 20:01
Man, I'm happy I'm in FL. We are allowed to defend our homes & cars.
my plan for a home invasion is to protect the lives of myself and my family. Any intruder in my home I am going to assume isn't there to be my friend. I have a gun tucked away in my bedroom along with a cell phone that's plugged in to keep a full charge. I normally have a gun on me or within arms reach when at home, but I never have more than two unlocked from the safe at a time...the one hidden in my room by the phone, and the one that comes with me wherever I go. The one in my room is more for peace of mind for my family, who don't see the 'need' to have a gun ready to go, but my mother realizes that a gun unloaded and locked away does you no good when you need it NOW.
Well, Florida has the Castle Doctrine as well. Doesn't mean a thing to me. I'm still not going to shoot anyone unless they are a threat. And stealing my TV doesn't constitute a threat.
I'm not saying such folks don't deserve a few good rounds in vital places, but I'm not going to be the one to do put them there unless it becomes absolutely necessary.
Even if you're a stone cold killer and taking someone's life doesn't bother you, the aftermath of such an event can take its toll. If nothing else it can be a big problem financially. No matter how justified you think you are, shooting someone 30 times with what the media considers an assault rifle might just get you charged with a crime. Defending yourself will get expensive. And once that is over, the civil suits start. Being acquitted in a criminal trial doesn't mean someone can't win a civil suit. Just ask OJ.
So, if at all possible, I'll just leave the criminal shooting to the police and those civilians who dream of such things with a big smile on their face.
I'll stick to shooting people who come into my home uninvited... and I'll leave the law to the lawyers. ;)
If I catch an intruder in my home, I'm not going to give him the time nor courtesey to explain to me why he's there nor take the time to determine how much of a "real threat" he is. If I feel threatened, I react.
Apocalypse_Now
10-01-2008, 23:26
Most security experts will recommend gathering all family members into one defensible location and calling 911 if you suspect someone has broken into your house.
This isn't because they want you run and hide and cower in a corner. It is because it is incredibly dangerous for one person to attempt to clear a house. Hole up, dial 911, and let the police clear the house.
Personally, I have no desire to play hide and seek with someone who may be armed over a few material possessions that are insured and easily replaced.
Of course, that's just me. If you're comfortable wandering around in the dark looking for someone who may be armed and hiding, just waiting for you to show yourself, good for you. You've got bigger cajones than I. Not as much sense, maybe, but bigger cajones.
Your post of full of so many false assumptions about people, their abilities and their homes that I don't know where to begin
Apocalypse_Now
10-01-2008, 23:28
Words to live by!!!
We have the RIGHT to remain SILENT, so use it, but not until you go on record with the SEVEN most important words every CCW holder needs to know:
"I was in fear for my life"
TGG
Followed by the next 5:
I have nothing to say
And the next 7 if you're under arrest:
Can I make my phone call now?
readyfireaim
10-02-2008, 00:21
I've had pistol sights lined up to shoot a guy who broke into my house. I didn't fire. He posed no threat to me, I made the right choice. It's bull**** that he broke into my garage and stole a ****ty 13" TV, but not enough for me to go through the trouble of shooting him over it, in a non Castle Doctrine state.
Other than on Wikipedia, is there an up-to-date list online that shows which states have Castle Doctrine and which ones don't?
SawgrassRaven
10-02-2008, 05:04
That's a fairly standard answer for all LEO's speaking through their attorneys.
Hell,if we caught,put in the hospital,or killed all the BG's their job would be even more irrelevent that it is right now. The police officers are there simply to take statements, for the DA, after the fact. Ask a typical LEO that has 20 or so years on the force this question. "How many perps have you arrested while comitting the felony" ?? If they are truthful,they will probably be able to count the number on one hand.
Ask a LEO if they are responsible for your safety and see what they say. Ask them if they will be there to protect you and your family from the BG's and see what they will say. When seconds count,the police are only minutes(sometimes 20+ minutes) away.
You are responsible for the safety of yourself and your family. While at home AND out in public places. Make sure to never,ever bring a knife,baseball bat,golf club,etc, to a gunfight. This especially in your home.
Get a permit,get a firearm,get trained,get aware of your local laws,and do the job yourself.
There are some great LEO's out there and I know that most are doing all the can. Problem is.....their hands are "tied" and they,the DA's, and the judges wont admit it. Given this,it is the average civilian,homeowner,that will become the victum. I WILL protect myself and my family. They can talk,I will act.
:wavey:
Excellent post!
My thoughts exactly!
Your post of full of so many false assumptions about people, their abilities and their homes that I don't know where to begin
Its a pretty short post, really, so why don't you give it a try.
Other than on Wikipedia, is there an up-to-date list online that shows which states have Castle Doctrine and which ones don't?
:popcorn::popcorn:
Kind of different advice from the Chicago Police of 1931
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/06/11/beating-the-thug-to-his-own-gun/
Beating the Thug to His Own Gun
Chicago Police, Trained to Handle Armed Men, Show, in Series of Pictures, How Weapons Can Be Wrested from Footpad
WHAT TO DO AND HOW. Photos on this and following page give a good idea of how officers are taught to disarm a thug even after he has them covered. Above, Sergeant John Leonard, right, and Detective William Foley, of the Chicago Police Department, pose for the first of the pictures in the series that proves that an armed man has not an unbeatable advantage even though he has his weapon in his hand and is desperate enough to use it...............
Grey_Mana
10-02-2008, 14:35
Its a pretty short post, really, so why don't you give it a try.
:couch:
It is somehwat likely that home invaders are chemically altered scum looking for an easy score that they can pawn, not steroid-using body-building ex-commando hulk zombies working as 7 man kidnapping teams. Being absolutely afraid to protect your property and rights is no way to go through life. Personal courage is a manly quality. I value what I own. I don't want some strung-out junkies pawing through my stuff, making a mess, vandalizing my property, breaking heirlooms, smashing windows and TVs, soiling themselves on my furniture. I agree discretion is the better part of valor, but clearing a house versus holing up is case-by-case. I might decide to hole up, listen, hear a gang of pre-teenagers giggling and smashing stuff, decide I'm not afraid for my safety, and go out armed.
Even without a Castle doctrine, I'm allowed to use reasonable force to protect & retain my property. I'm allowed to be armed in my house. I'm allowed to confront intruders even when I'm not in fear, so long as the force I use is reasonable and appropriate.
Property isn't as valuable as life, but the right to property is a fundamental freedom.
Thx-1138
10-02-2008, 15:31
Most security experts will recommend gathering all family members into one defensible location and calling 911 if you suspect someone has broken into your house.
This isn't because they want you run and hide and cower in a corner. It is because it is incredibly dangerous for one person to attempt to clear a house. Hole up, dial 911, and let the police clear the house.
Personally, I have no desire to play hide and seek with someone who may be armed over a few material possessions that are insured and easily replaced.
Of course, that's just me. If you're comfortable wandering around in the dark looking for someone who may be armed and hiding, just waiting for you to show yourself, good for you. You've got bigger cajones than I. Not as much sense, maybe, but bigger cajones.
:couch:
It is somehwat likely that home invaders are chemically altered scum looking for an easy score that they can pawn, not steroid-using body-building ex-commando hulk zombies working as 7 man kidnapping teams. Being absolutely afraid to protect your property and rights is no way to go through life. Personal courage is a manly quality. I value what I own. I don't want some strung-out junkies pawing through my stuff, making a mess, vandalizing my property, breaking heirlooms, smashing windows and TVs, soiling themselves on my furniture. I agree discretion is the better part of valor, but clearing a house versus holing up is case-by-case. I might decide to hole up, listen, hear a gang of pre-teenagers giggling and smashing stuff, decide I'm not afraid for my safety, and go out armed.
Even without a Castle doctrine, I'm allowed to use reasonable force to protect & retain my property. I'm allowed to be armed in my house. I'm allowed to confront intruders even when I'm not in fear, so long as the force I use is reasonable and appropriate.
Property isn't as valuable as life, but the right to property is a fundamental freedom.
Interesting post that does an excellent job of addressing exactly none of the issues brought up in the post to which you were responding.
hokieglock
10-02-2008, 16:02
so this country has deteriorated to telling our citizens to be a bunch of pansies. good thing we didn't do that in 1776.
:couch:
It is somehwat likely that home invaders are chemically altered scum looking for an easy score that they can pawn, not steroid-using body-building ex-commando hulk zombies working as 7 man kidnapping teams. Being absolutely afraid to protect your property and rights is no way to go through life. Personal courage is a manly quality. I value what I own. I don't want some strung-out junkies pawing through my stuff, making a mess, vandalizing my property, breaking heirlooms, smashing windows and TVs, soiling themselves on my furniture. I agree discretion is the better part of valor, but clearing a house versus holing up is case-by-case. I might decide to hole up, listen, hear a gang of pre-teenagers giggling and smashing stuff, decide I'm not afraid for my safety, and go out armed.
Even without a Castle doctrine, I'm allowed to use reasonable force to protect & retain my property. I'm allowed to be armed in my house. I'm allowed to confront intruders even when I'm not in fear, so long as the force I use is reasonable and appropriate.
Property isn't as valuable as life, but the right to property is a fundamental freedom.
Nothing that you bring up is worth losing my life or my home over. Putting oneself in danger to satisfy some macho idea of what constitutes personal courage is just immature.
What is of utmost importance to me is the safety of myself and my family. Second is my ability to continue to provide for myself and my family. By wandering around in the dark hoping to be able to blow away some scumbag or multiple scumbags I put both of those priorities at risk.
Arming myself and taking up a defensive position until the police arrive is not a sign of cowardice. It is protecting my myself and my family. If I don't confront someone intent only on taking stuff, I know I and my family will be safe. If I am killed or injured, it will be much more devastating to my family, both emotionally and financially, than losing Aunt Fannie's antique vase or having to pay a cleaning service to clean up some poop and broken glass. Any loss I suffer from a break in is covered by my homeowners insurance.
If I confront the intruder(s) and end up shooting someone, it can cost me my savings and my house. There is nothing in my house worth what it may cost to defend myself in court or to pay out in a civil suit.
Look, anyone who wants to run around in the dark looking for an unknown intruder or multiple intruders with the idea that bad things never happen to good folks, that they will blow the scumbag(s) away in a hail of bullets and then be carried down the street in triumph on the shoulders of their grateful neighbors is welcome to their fantasy. I'm going to follow the advice of individuals with much more experience and training than myself, not one of whom recommends attempting to clear a building solo.
Nothing that you bring up is worth losing my life or my home over. Putting oneself in danger to satisfy some macho idea of what constitutes personal courage is just immature.
What is of utmost importance to me is the safety of myself and my family. Second is my ability to continue to provide for myself and my family. By wandering around in the dark hoping to be able to blow away some scumbag or multiple scumbags I put both of those priorities at risk.
Arming myself and taking up a defensive position until the police arrive is not a sign of cowardice. It is protecting my myself and my family. If I don't confront someone intent only on taking stuff, I know I and my family will be safe. If I am killed or injured, it will be much more devastating to my family, both emotionally and financially, than losing Aunt Fannie's antique vase or having to pay a cleaning service to clean up some poop and broken glass. Any loss I suffer from a break in is covered by my homeowners insurance.
If I confront the intruder(s) and end up shooting someone, it can cost me my savings and my house. There is nothing in my house worth what it may cost to defend myself in court or to pay out in a civil suit.
Look, anyone who wants to run around in the dark looking for an unknown intruder or multiple intruders with the idea that bad things never happen to good folks, that they will blow the scumbag(s) away in a hail of bullets and then be carried down the street in triumph on the shoulders of their grateful neighbors is welcome to their fantasy. I'm going to follow the advice of individuals with much more experience and training than myself, not one of whom recommends attempting to clear a building solo.
There is no white or black... no one circumstance that involves a break in....
The only way to know if that noise you heard is a thief or the family cat, is to check it out....
There is nothing wrong with what you want to do... it's fine.. barricade, arm yourself, call the cops and wait... that's your choice, it isn't wrong.... Then again, checking it out, armed... shooting an armed/attacking invader, holding a robber at bay till the cops get there, blowing away someone in your home, intent on taking your stuff/hurting your family, whatever, isn't wrong either.... It's all a personal choice, and I say do what you feel comfortable with...
But, your example of legal fees, lawsuits, etc has merit as well....
As well as getting yourself killed needlessly.....
My point is, there is no right or wrong/ black or white, do what you feel comfortable with, and be prepared to face the consequences of your actions.
Yes, there may even be consequences for your actions, given the right situation...
Say a man with a family does exactly what you say... he hears the intruder, gathers the kids, and locks the bedroom door, dials 911, then grabs the shotgun and waits. Meanwhile, the daughter, just getting home from a date, gets assaulted, knocked unconscious and raped, before the police get there, and with the Dad barricaded upstairs, not realizing she has even made it home.
Not that this is likely to happen, but, you must admit, there are scenarios that will have consequences, even for your particular choice of action.
I'll never say you or anyone is right or wrong with your actions... I will say be prepared to accept the consequences for whatever action you choose. Unfortunately, the world sucks, and it's a Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation sometimes.: crying:
The_Gun_Guru
10-02-2008, 16:48
so this country has deteriorated to telling our citizens to be a bunch of pansies. good thing we didn't do that in 1776.
The New Revolution is coming!:wow:
And it's not going to be pretty.:shocked:
CableRouter
10-02-2008, 17:48
I think a lot of it comes down to the perception of liability. Our society has gotten so lawsuit happy that a lot of people won't tell you what they REALLY think anymore. Instead, they try to think of what response they could give that is least likely to get them served with civil process papers and cost them money.
Move to Florida, if you shoot someone lawfully you cannot be sued for it. Push your lawmakers to enact similar shield laws in your own state.
The_Gun_Guru
10-02-2008, 18:17
DO NOT move to Florida!!! Iif you shoot someone here lawfully you cannot be sued for it. Push your lawmakers to enact similar shield laws in your own state.
I fixed it for you.
FL is full - we have no more room for showbirds and those that don't speak English!
TGG
LanceOregon
10-02-2008, 18:34
Well, it is official. Our police chief gave the city government his resignation just after this incident happened. The two events are totally unrelated, however.
He will be leaving to go to the city of Elk Grove, CA, to become that city's police chief.
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/131416//story.csp
.
The bastage would get a 12ga enema from my house visit!
The_Gun_Guru
10-02-2008, 18:39
Well, it is official. Our police chief gave the city government his resignation just after this incident happened. The two events are totally unrelated, however.
He will be leaving to go to the city of Elk Grove, CA, to become that city's police chief.
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/131416//story.csp
.
Good riddance to bad rubbish!!!!:wavey:
TGG:steamed:
People fail to keep in mind that the mission of the police is to protect the dignity of the state, not to protect citizens and their property. From that perspective, it was the wrong thing to do. The right thing to do, from the police department's perspective, is to allow the crime to continue, and observe as much as you can to accumulate evidence. That guy made getting a conviction for burglary harder, because his defense attorney will say, "but there really wasn't a burglary, was there, because this aggressive homeowner stopped it and recovered all his property." It'll go to a plea bargain and the bad guy will get time served, with three additional months in jail, all suspended, inactive probation for a year and a five hundred dollar fine. If the cops had caught him with the loot after he'd gotten away, he'd be looking at five to twenty, and actually serve a year and a half.
From my perspective (I let the state take care of itself), I'd have shot the sucker while he was still in the house. Why tackle him, a person could get hurt that way?
Just remember the "Police" do not always know what is best for you. They have no legal requirement to protect you.
You're on your own.
OperatorX
10-02-2008, 19:12
Using common sense is not being a victim. Professionals who are trained in how to properly clear buildings avoid clearing buildings alone if at all possible. If you think you can clear a building with no chance of ending up dead or injured than you are simply delusional.
My goal if someone breaks into my house is to keep myself and my family safe. The best way to do that is to stay put in a defensible location and call 911, staying connected until the police arrive. By doing that, I reduce the chance of being injured to something close to zero. No matter how well I know my own home, if I go out and wander around in the dark looking for someone to blow away so I can post pictures on the internet, the odds of being killed or injured rise dramatically. If I am killed or injured, the odds of someone in my family also being killed or injured also go up dramatically.
If someone attempts to do me or mine harm, I have no problem pulling the trigger, but I'm not going to shoot someone over a TV or a DVD player or any other material object. That's why I pay for replacement value insurance.
BTW, I've got you beat on the CCW. I've had mine since 1988 and never leave the house without a gun.
As a tac team operator, we simply don't clear houses/buildings much less a room alone. That said a SWAT deployment differs greatly from someone on your own turf.
Where I live, we don't have the castle doctrine. I don't have ONE absolute plan if someone comes into my house. I may or may not confront and I may or may not take a defensive position...it just depends. I've been thru a civil lawsuit as a defendant, luckily the department/city funded my defense. It was by no means a pleasent experience, one I wouldn't replicate over property unless necessary.
There is no right or wrong answer to this it all comes down to your morals and what you're capable of. If you've made peace with yourself and/or whatever god you may worship for killing someone over a TV, great. As I stated earlier I'm sure the original announcement by the police was addressed to the lowest common denominator.
Call me a coward, I hunt these Adam-Henrys for a living :)
Also, the castle doctrine isn't going to protect you from a federal lawsuit.
The_Gun_Guru
10-02-2008, 19:27
It'll go to a plea bargain and the bad guy will get time served, with three additional months in jail, all suspended, inactive probation for a year and a five hundred dollar fine.
That's cool, because when he and the brothers come looking for payback (and you know they will), you can shoot ALL OF THEM!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
You know it's true!!!:tongueout:
Any burglar should be considered a deadly threat. These types do not start their day thinking they will kill or assault but as they get into their work things just seem to happen.
Wake County Glockman
10-03-2008, 02:44
I would probably drag him back inside.... :whistling:
Works for me
sigcalcatrant
10-03-2008, 06:07
I think a lot of it comes down to the perception of liability. Our society has gotten so lawsuit happy that a lot of people won't tell you what they REALLY think anymore. Instead, they try to think of what response they could give that is least likely to get them served with civil process papers and cost them money.
If the police advocated taking on a burglar in your home, think of what could go wrong. On one hand, you have a homeowner who attempts to interupt a burglary in progress and is beaten/stabbed/shot by the criminal(s). That homeowner, or their surviving relatives then sues the city/county/state by claiming that they were told by the police to confront the crook, and were never WARNED that it could get them hurt/killed.
This is 100% correct; extremely insightful observation. Of course, with a nom de guerre like 'H&K .45 AUTO' how could less be expected?
hokieglock
10-03-2008, 10:34
Well, it is official. Our police chief gave the city government his resignation just after this incident happened. The two events are totally unrelated, however.
He will be leaving to go to the city of Elk Grove, CA, to become that city's police chief.
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/131416//story.csp
.
great, another idiot here in sacatomatoes.
solomansousana
10-03-2008, 14:35
That's all fine and dandy should you live alone, but if you have children or other family in the house, that's quite impossible. And, with the police being an after action entity, you can't depend on them arriving before something goes wrong.
The masses depend wholly on the police to protect them, the WISE depend on no one but themselves.
Should I be the only one in the house at the time my security system went off, I'd stay in the room knowing that the system automatically notifies police, and my bedroom door is locked when I'm asleep. However, should I have family in the house, I'd be out hunting, and most likely the wife would as well. But the best thing for the burglar in this case, I'm an RN and the wifes an MD. However, there is no law that says we HAVE to render assistance.
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