cold weather wear vs. 9mm

[jokon]

I live in North East Pa. So It can get pretty cold here in the winter. Is the 9mm JHP expansion hampered by heavy or thick clothing?

[glock20c10mm]

Not sure about many of the various bullet designs. What I can tell you about the loads I'm listing below is that they were all fired into ballistic gel that had 4 layers of denim and 2 layers of cotton T hanging in front of it. None in my list seemed to have any problem whatsoever in the expansion department. Expansion is listed after the "E".

Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 115gr, 1415fps, KE=511, P=12.00, E=.70, 4.6ci, 813psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 124gr, 1310fps, KE=472, P=13.25, E=.70, 4.6ci, 684psi
Federal 9mm+P HST, 124gr, 1200fps, KE=396, P=12.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 605psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 124gr, 1150fps, KE=364, P=13.90, E=.64, 3.9ci, 501psi
Win9mm+P T Series, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=13.90, E=.67, 4.2ci, 526psi
Win9mm +P Bonded, 124gr, 1180fps, KE=383, P=18.70, E=.54, 2.7ci, 392psi
Win9mm+P+TSeries, 127gr, 1250fps, KE=441, P=12.20, E=.68, 4.4ci, 691psi
DT 9mm+P Gold Dot, 147gr, 1125fps, KE=413, P=14.00, E=.66, 4.1ci, 563psi
Federal 9mm HST,,,, 147gr, 1000fps, KE=326, P=14.40, E=.66, 4.1ci, 433psi
Speer 9mm GD,,,,,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=15.25, E=.58, 3.2ci, 401psi
Win 9mm T Series,,,, 147gr,, 990fps, KE=320, P=14.50, E=.66, 4.1ci, 422psi
Win 9mm Bonded,,,,, 147gr,, 995fps, KE=323, P=16.50, E=.59, 3.3ci, 374psi

Obviously this particular selection accounts for: Ranger T-series and Bonded, Gold Dot and HST.

I'm sure there are some lesser bullet designs that have issues, but others clearly do quite well in the expasion department after passing through heavy clothing. Does leather make a difference? I don't know. What about feather down jackets? I don't know. Unless someone else has more info, you may be stuck doing a bit of your own "backyard" testing.

Good Shooting,
Craig:thumbsup:

PS - Remember, those 9mm bullets are only .355" when they leave the gun.

[jokon]

Thanks for the info and the time too. It's really helpful.

[SIGShooter]

jokon,

I'm also in NE PA. I currently carry the Winchester Ranger 115 Gr. +P+ for SD. One thing that I also carry...WWB 115 Gr. FMJ. It does get cold. People do bundle up. I feel comfortable carrying FMJ or JHP wthout issues.

[JBP55]

jokon,

I'm also in NE PA. I currently carry the Winchester Ranger 115 Gr. +P+ for SD. One thing that I also carry...WWB 115 Gr. FMJ. It does get cold. People do bundle up. I feel comfortable carrying FMJ or JHP wthout issues.

You will get more penetration and less recoil with the 147 grain and back on target faster.

[J.P.]

You will get more penetration and less recoil with the 147 grain and back on target faster.

edited

[SIGShooter]

You will get more penetration and less recoil with the 147 grain and back on target faster.



Actually, I don't.

I've tested many, many rounds and many, many weights. The 115 Gr. are the best for me and my weapons. I can out shoot the 147 any time of the day.

[glock20c10mm]

You will get more penetration and less recoil with the 147 grain and back on target faster.
And even if that were true for everyone, how does a billionth of a second change the outcome of anything? The majority of BGs won't be able to outshoot you anyway for anyone that actually does practice with whatever their platform/load preference is, and that includes for those that choose the likes of 357SIG and 10mm.

I don't know what some of you are trying to prove.:upeyes: There are guys who have done respectably in matches with 10mm when virtually all the rest were shooting 9 & 40. And even if the 10mm loads were the weak stuff, so is the 9 & 40 ammo everyone else is shooting. That competion shooting doesn't tell a whole story.

[unit1069]

Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi

Note to self: Forget about carrying this particular round for self-defense.

[JBP55]

Actually, I don't.

I've tested many, many rounds and many, many weights. The 115 Gr. are the best for me and my weapons. I can out shoot the 147 any time of the day.

I think everyone should shoot what works best for them.

[glock20c10mm]

Win 9mm+P+ Ranger, 115gr, 1335fps, KE=455, P=8.50, E=.81, 4.4ci, 1023psi

Note to self: Forget about carrying this particular round for self-defense.
I agree 100%. Not when other 115gr 9mm bullets will do better. Definately not good enough.:shakehead: Unless someone can show other meaningful data that turns the tables.

[unit1069]

I agree 100%. Not when other 115gr 9mm bullets will do better. Definately not good enough.:shakehead: Unless someone can show other meaningful data that turns the tables.

I was very surprised when I read your table and this round failed by a considerable margin to meet minimum penetration requirements. All the other rounds made the grade for that particular measurement.

[Deputydawg109]

I went to a LEO expo ab out 6 months ago. Various calibers and grain bullets, Winchester Ranger, were fired thru several cloth layers and into gelitin and they all performed well.

[glock20c10mm]

I think everyone should shoot what works best for them.
How does anyone know what works best for them? Isn't it more about how a round incapacitates a BG? I would say everyone would want to choose what takes out a BG most efficiently. Lack of penetration for example is proven to not work best. Would you want others to be mislead by Extreme Shok Ammo? Definately there are some guidelines one should adhere to. Then of course there are those who believe FMJ works just as well as premium JHP.:shocked::rofl::animlol::upeyes::faint:

[glock20c10mm]

I was very surprised when I read your table and this round failed by a considerable margin to meet minimum penetration requirements. All the other rounds made the grade for that particular measurement.
I understand what you mean in general. BUT, when one understands that the bullet is a basic Ranger bullet, and not even a Ranger T-series, it's probably not all that surprising. Winchester doesn't make a 115gr bullet in the T-series or Bonded, so it's just a conventional bullet capable of mass fragmentation. I've got nothing against fragmentation as long as the bullet can still make it to around 12" penetration in clothed gel.

[glock20c10mm]

I went to a LEO expo ab out 6 months ago. Various calibers and grain bullets, Winchester Ranger, were fired thru several cloth layers and into gelitin and they all performed well.
Ranger? Or Ranger T-series and Bonded? Big Difference.

[Deputydawg109]

Ranger? Or Ranger T-series and Bonded? Big Difference.


I really dont remember. I forgot about bonded. I think they were using bonded, to promote it. However, they allowed us after the crowd had left to use our ranger 147 grn un-bonded. The results were still good. The jacket did not peel off, good mushroom, the serations were still intact with the jacket.
They did use bonded through a windsheild to show bullet failure of non bonded versus bonded. The bnded retaind the jacket and serations. the non bonded seperated.

[Deputydawg109]

I will be going to another one late this month and can report back. It will be Winchester Ranger, since it used as LEO ammo and a Winchester dealer is putting it on.

[glock20c10mm]

I will be going to another one late this month and can report back. It will be Winchester Ranger, since it used as LEO ammo and a Winchester dealer is putting it on.
That would be so appreciated!!!:thumbsup: In particular it would be nice to know what amount of penetration is to be expected of the 115gr +P+ standard Ranger load in bare and/or clothed gel.

[jokon]

I want to thank everybody for their input, I'm considering a G26 for conceal carry, and wanted a good place to start with considering ammo options. I know there have been great advances in 9mm ammo in the last couple of years. It's hard to get back up to speed on what's currently out there. I've been carry .45 acp on duty for awhile, but never carried a BUG. Until now. I've got the funds, and I'm trying to make decision.

[JBP55]

How does anyone know what works best for them? Isn't it more about how a round incapacitates a BG? I would say everyone would want to choose what takes out a BG most efficiently. Lack of penetration for example is proven to not work best. Would you want others to be mislead by Extreme Shok Ammo? Definately there are some guidelines one should adhere to. Then of course there are those who believe FMJ works just as well as premium JHP.:shocked::rofl::animlol::upeyes::faint:

LEO knows what works best for them, for the majority GD,RT,GS,HST. What I am suggesting is using a LEO round that is readily available and works best for you referring to function in your gun. I know what LEO carry and I know how they work on the street and in my guns. No disagreement here, about stopping the BG. The LEO Stats. and Demos. are a good place to learn about ammo.

[SIGShooter]

One thing I find interesting...

Doing research, I have found that the "Average" human thickness is around 10". Of course this doesn't hold true always. But, with that, I have noticed a huge trend to go with bullets that penetrate in excess of 12+ inches.

Now, I know that all bullets don't over penetrate, however giving the design that you chose (Bonded, Non-Bonded, FMJ etc...) gives you more chances of over penetration.

Something you may want to take into consideration. Of course this is just my personal opinion. I do use FMJ at times for SD carry.

:supergrin:

[glock20c10mm]

LEO knows what works best for them, for the majority GD,RT,GS,HST. What I am suggesting is using a LEO round that is readily available and works best for you referring to function in your gun. I know what LEO carry and I know how they work on the street and in my guns. No disagreement here, about stopping the BG. The LEO Stats. and Demos. are a good place to learn about ammo.
I'm with ya 90% here, but don't assume LE know what works best for them. Some do and some don't. For some it is a political decision, for some a budget decision, some think just about anything is as good as anything else as long as you use any of the current crop of premium JHP, and some don't even go that far. Yes, some LE have truely searched to find what works better than others, but not all. I wouldn't even go so far as to say a majority.

[glock20c10mm]

One thing I find interesting...

Doing research, I have found that the "Average" human thickness is around 10". Of course this doesn't hold true always. But, with that, I have noticed a huge trend to go with bullets that penetrate in excess of 12+ inches.

Now, I know that all bullets don't over penetrate, however giving the design that you chose (Bonded, Non-Bonded, FMJ etc...) gives you more chances of over penetration.

Something you may want to take into consideration. Of course this is just my personal opinion. I do use FMJ at times for SD carry.

:supergrin:
Excellent point.:thumbsup: And actually, the average human thickness is supposedly 9.5". Don't know who that's all taking into account though. Or if it's a worldly figure, or just the U.S.?:dunno:

[SGT109]

jokon,

I'm also in NE PA. I currently carry the Winchester Ranger 115 Gr. +P+ for SD. One thing that I also carry...WWB 115 Gr. FMJ. It does get cold. People do bundle up. I feel comfortable carrying FMJ or JHP wthout issues.


Same here.

[Strada Man]

It's not the cop on the beat that gets to select the ammo they carry in most departments.

Those brain stressing, ulcer inducing decisions are not made by mere mortals who may have to put their life on the line to fully "test" the effectivness of the chosen felon-stopper uberboolit. No children, those decisions are made by accountants, lawyers and admoronistrators.

Sometimes you get lucky, and they select a decent to good round. If they did, not only did you get "lucky" but most likely it's a "fad" round, and everybody is jumping on the bandwagon. Take a look at the 40 S&W for a classic example of this phenomenom.

Demo's and such are great, but bear in mind it's a venue by the manufacturer to sell the "latest and greatest". Often one agency will "tack on" to another agencies order, very common in Federal service. The ATF may order the ammo, but BP gets some too.

I myself am "lucky" in that my agency issues a "street proven" round. That's because they selected the caliber, and "tacked on" to another agency's order. :supergrin: If you want to select a round for yourself I'd look at what LEO's are carrying and look at the results. For example, NYPD seems to do very well with the Gold Dot 124 Grain +P JHP. The Border Patrol did well with the Federal 115 Grain +P+ and the ISP with the Winchester 115 and 127 Grain +P+. All of these rounds have loads of data. I wouldn't want to be the one to "test" the effectiveness of a new round for the first time.

So, I guess in all my rambling, the question is: "What round to select in 9mm for self defense?"

The answer: Any one that has a proven street record of stopping adversaries.

Strada Man

[Brooklyn123456]

I am going out to a local bar to check the thickness of some local females.

[DRT]

If outstanding terminal ballistics through heavy clothing is your desire, I'd recommend Federal Tactical HST (not hydrashok) or Winchester Ranger T or Federal Tactical Bonded. DPX would work but they are VERY expensive and the velocity varibility is way too high for me (I equate it with poor quality control).

[Razinski]

Try CORBON DPX. These penetrate 2 layers of 16ga steel, 4 layers of denim and give good penetration with reliable expansion without shearing off any weight! 115gr DPX is my choice!

[MURRAY]

I like the HST or Ranger T in 147 also the 124 aint bad in P and no p also the 124 +p gold dot non of these I would feel bad about carrying in the winter I just happen to have 147 HST in my 19 and 17 now

[JBP55]

I like the HST or Ranger T in 147 also the 124 aint bad in P and no p also the 124 +p gold dot non of these I would feel bad about carrying in the winter I just happen to have 147 HST in my 19 and 17 now

Very good choices.