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Parkshow30
10-18-2008, 19:53
Whats your opinion on Remington UMC 115grn JHP for carry use?
I have always just used standard pressure 115HP's for carry anyway, and at wal-mart today I saw that the remington JHP is only $23.24 for a box of 100 I have been paying $19.97 for the WWB 100 round FMJ for practice anyway. Thats only $3.27 more to use JHP instead of FMJs. I like the idea of my carry ammo being my practice ammo, but I could never afford to practice with my old stuff which was $16 for 50.
One thing I noticed, the bullet itself was shorter than my 115grn JHP winchester. Anyone know how come?
Thanks for your input.

ggarciatx
10-18-2008, 20:06
Those used to be issued to the US Border Patrol back in the day. True you will hear about more modern loads , etc. etc. etc., but when it comes down to it, just put them where you need to and they will work. Their biggest positives are that they will feed in virtually all weapons due to the JHP profile. Even the .45 JHPs will feed in old 1911s that would otherwise be reliable only with ball ammo. I think it is one of the best deals in JHP around. I would have no problem using them to defend myself.

unit1069
10-18-2008, 20:21
I've always liked that round for practice and used to carry it until I socked away a bunch of premium 9mm ammo. I don't know how the bullet itself performs and maybe someone else can provide information on its expansion and penetration statistics.

mickdundie
10-19-2008, 04:13
I'm pretty sure your talking 9mm...I don't recall seeing it in your post

I have fired at least 500 rounds of the green box 100 round JHP Remington through my G26 without (1) problem. I too like to practice with what I carry. They function perfectly, have a consistent report and are very accurate. I've decided to use them in summer, t-shirt weather. In winter I'm carrying the Remington green box in FMJ. Wal Mart has them for around $10/50 PK.

After reading an FBI report about pistol ammo I have decided on this logic.

They said that second to shot placement, penetration was more important than anything. Some of these new, fancy, super wide mouth HP bullet designs will not go through heavy jacket, denim etc.. and still have enough velocity to penetrate to the vital organs, or preferably the CNS IE spinal cord or brain...that's your 1-shot-stop.

They also said they never had a pistol round over-penetrate and fatally wound an innocent by-stander...so that kinda rules out that over penetrate and kill the person behind the BG theory for me.

They also stated in the report that HP ammo is pretty much either destroyed, or loses so much form if it hits anything at all on the path to the target that they are not very good for shooting through objects or glass.

My $.02

Rems all the way

Mick:thumbsup:

unit1069
10-19-2008, 07:55
They said that second to shot placement, penetration was more important than anything. Some of these new, fancy, super wide mouth HP bullet designs will not go through heavy jacket, denim etc.. and still have enough velocity to penetrate to the vital organs, or preferably the CNS IE spinal cord or brain...that's your 1-shot-stop.

Some years have passed since that FBI report and bullet design has advanced considerably.

Doesn't every federal LEO agency carry JHP ammo in their duty weapons?

mickdundie
10-19-2008, 10:54
Some years have passed since that FBI report and bullet design has advanced considerably.

Doesn't every federal LEO agency carry JHP ammo in their duty weapons?

Don't know...and don't care. JHP still get full of material when going through heavy clothing. I don't think that will ever change. Now Federal makes a Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) that is suppurb.


And the US Armed forces carry FMJ in their small arms as well:wavey:

Any other questions...reply to the OP...not me...

The Q was about REM JHP....I told him that I liked them and why.

YOU???

Mick:thumbsup:

unit1069
10-19-2008, 16:07
Don't know...and don't care. JHP still get full of material when going through heavy clothing. I don't think that will ever change.

I've read a number of controlled ballistics gel tests using layers of clothing over the gel. Many hollowpoint bullets expand well and penetrate the minimum 12" that the FBI states is minimum standard, even after picking up some layered material before entering the gel.

And the US Armed forces carry FMJ in their small arms as well:wavey:

FMJ is required by international treaty for military forces. And I still maintain that almost every major LEO agency issues JHP ammo for their personnel. At least that is what I believe is the standard bullet design the agents carry in their duty weapons.

Any other questions...reply to the OP...not me...

The Q was about REM JHP....I told him that I liked them and why.

YOU???

Mick:thumbsup:

I did tell the OP why I like the round for practice, but know nothing about that particular round's bullet performance. And I still don't know a thing about the Remington 115-grain JHP green box bullet's performance and I'm assuming you don't either, aside from your blanket statement that it will clog with material and presumably perform inadequately compared to FMJ.

thegriz18
10-19-2008, 16:46
I have shot the WWB USA 180gr JHP in .40, and the Remington UMC 180gr JHP. The Remington used to be my carry load, now I carry 165gr. Golden Sabers.

In the tests I did with wet pack, I found the WWB USA rounds to penetrate about 12-20 inches depending upon range and bullet expansion, and slip their jackets if shot at close range. I didn't find them very reliable. I shot about 100 rounds of it into wetpack. When It didn't expand much either. Note they only leave a G23 at around 1010 fps.

Now the Remington UMC 180gr. JHP. It is the same bullet as their Express load. It leaves the barrel at around 1015fps. I also shot 100 rounds of this into wet pack. I always got 12-18 inches of penetration, through a soaked cardboard cover on the pack. People might not like to hear it, but all the bullets expanded. Some of the WWB imploded upon themselves. The Remington's opened up all the time. Nearly always 1.5 times their original .40 diameter. IIRC one expanded close to an inch at about 3 yards. Their 25 yard performance was lacking though. They had 6-8 inches of penetration, with minimal expansion. That is why I switched to a faster 165gr. Golden Saber. I did this for a college project, had it saved, turned it in, then my computer fried its self. I know that you asked about 9mm, but the bullet construction is nearly identical. They should be more than adequate. Only downside is they have some flash. I didn't think it was too big of a deal, and I have shot them at night, but still, they flash.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=6
Here is a link to Remington's ballistics page. They offer a standard pressure Golden Saber in 124gr, and a 124gr UMC FMJ, with nearly identical ballistics. That is a decent compromise for performance and inexpensive training. http://ammunitiontogo.com also has some deals on Golden Sabers, Gold Dots, HST's, etc...
I would check it out. My $.02

Parkshow30
10-20-2008, 14:51
Thanks for the good info. Seems like they are at least worth a shot to see if they will feed reliably in my PF9 and G19. Ill run 100 through each this weekend and if it holds up I will be shooting off the rest of my old carry ammo, I think I am down to a little less than 100, and replacing all my mags with the remington.

Boris Bush
10-20-2008, 15:58
Whats your opinion on Remington UMC 115grn JHP for carry use?
I have always just used standard pressure 115HP's for carry anyway, and at wal-mart today I saw that the remington JHP is only $23.24 for a box of 100 I have been paying $19.97 for the WWB 100 round FMJ for practice anyway. Thats only $3.27 more to use JHP instead of FMJs. I like the idea of my carry ammo being my practice ammo, but I could never afford to practice with my old stuff which was $16 for 50.
One thing I noticed, the bullet itself was shorter than my 115grn JHP winchester. Anyone know how come?
Thanks for your input.


Unless they have changed in the past 10 years, this load rarely expanded for me when I shot various critters on the farm and I quickly moved on to other cheap loads that worked far better. WWB 147 grain subsonics always expanded and performed much better and quickly became my standard farm load for all kinds of work on all sizes of critters.

Maybe I got a bad lot, I only tested 50 rounds and it was about 10 years ago so alot could have changed since then. Even if things have changed I am not willing to try them again because there are soooo many other better rounds out there that do work all the time for me............

thegriz18
10-20-2008, 17:55
Unless they have changed in the past 10 years, this load rarely expanded for me when I shot various critters on the farm and I quickly moved on to other cheap loads that worked far better. WWB 147 grain subsonics always expanded and performed much better and quickly became my standard farm load for all kinds of work on all sizes of critters.

Maybe I got a bad lot, I only tested 50 rounds and it was about 10 years ago so alot could have changed since then. Even if things have changed I am not willing to try them again because there are soooo many other better rounds out there that do work all the time for me............

A lot has changed. Remington totally re-vamped the UMC line. All of the UMC products in the green and white box are made with Remington components. I really think the only difference between the Remington UMC's and Express is the flash signature. I would check out the Golden Sabers. I hear that the bonded ones have similar ballistics to the Gold Dot. I have heard that their brass jacket holds better through barriers, but I haven't tested them, or seen much info on them anywhere. Bonded or non-bonded for that matter.

Boris Bush
10-20-2008, 18:30
A lot has changed. Remington totally re-vamped the UMC line. All of the UMC products in the green and white box are made with Remington components. I really think the only difference between the Remington UMC's and Express is the flash signature. I would check out the Golden Sabers. I hear that the bonded ones have similar ballistics to the Gold Dot. I have heard that their brass jacket holds better through barriers, but I haven't tested them, or seen much info on them anywhere. Bonded or non-bonded for that matter.

The Golden Sabers ARE spectacular performers! My first pistol kill for deer hunting with a 9mm was a 147 grain Golden Saber back in 1993. My last deer kill with the 9mm was 124 grain Bonded +P Golden Saber. Golden Sabers Are alot like XTPs, they are one of the best performers but get little to no credit or reports on how good they are........

Good to hear they did change how things are done. I remember the first time I shot Remington golden bullets, pure junk. I heard they changed so I tried them out in my P22 and to my surprise they are the guns favorite load along with minimags.

Merkavaboy
10-21-2008, 16:11
Just a few observations:

Over the years Rem has redesigned the 9mm 115JHP numerous times. In the past their rounded ogive style bullet would allow superior feeding in problematic autos and actually performed well on the streets. LAPD issued the standard pressure load for a while. Today's REM-UMC has a much wider JHP cavity so I don't know how well they expand in real human flesh.

The FBI protocols IMO should not be followed by civilian gun carriers/owners because it was designed around law enforcement needs and not civilian needs. LEO's are not half as concerned about overpenetration of a BG as they are about barrier penetration. Civilians do not require deep penetrating loads like LEO's do. Civilians need loads that will stay inside a BG all the time every time.

One must also remember that animals of all kinds and backyard experiments do not prove
anything about how well a bullet will perform in a human being. Even ballistic gel cannot do that as it is a homogenous substance and NOT a human body.

Emulating the military and using FMJ ammo for SD is not something that shoud be followed. FMJs are the worst loads that can be used for civilian SD. Even the worst U.S. desinged JHP has the possibility of expanding and staying in a BGs body and not overpenetrating to go on to injure/kill an innocent. Even the infamously overpenetrating Win USA 147JHP subsonic would be better than FMJ for civilian SD use.

4570Lever
10-25-2008, 13:30
Civilians do not require deep penetrating loads like LEO's do. Civilians need loads that will stay inside a BG all the time every time.

This is nonsense. Bad guys don't change their stripes, nor their methods and tactics depending on who's shooting back at them. All of us need all the help we can get. If a BG is trying to run me down with his car I want something that can go thru glass or sheet metal and kill who's behind it. Not some politically correct, toned down for "mere civilians" half baked underpowered recipe that gets me killed. Cops are not supermen, nor carrying any magic talisman that makes them special or different, and they're faced with the same backdrops we are.

The best ammo for this by the data I've seen to date is Cor-Bon DPX all copper slugs. Expensive, to be sure.

As far as UMC is concerned, all variants I have used shot filthy, but were amazingly accurate. In fact the first round ever fired out of a brand new gun fresh out of the box, a Taurus 651B Protector found the perfect center of a target with UMC green/white box.

Merkavaboy
10-25-2008, 21:04
If you're a civilian gun carrier and you're having to shoot into a vehicle then you're doing something wrong. Your primary job is to avoid having to use deadly force, not go looking for it. Rarely if ever does a civilian gun carrier have to shoot into a car, unlike LEOs who spend a lot of time confronting scumbags behind the wheel of a car.

Take a look at the armed citizen page of the American Rifleman, which reports civilan deadly force encounters from across the country and see how many times people wind up shooting into cars let alone through walls or doors. And that is slim to none with slim on vacation. 99% of those encounters occur face to face or at very short distances (like at across the room distances).

So, is it best to loadup with ammo that is designed to expand in human tissue and not risk overpenetration for 99% of deadly force encounters that civilians encounter or use loads that will penetrate 12-18+"of gello AFTER defeating hard barriers like the FBI suggests?

If someone is so concerned about defeating barriers then why not just carry carry FMJ or AP ammo 100% of the time and not worry about up close encounters? It's called playing the odds. And if you play it right and do everything you can to avoid being forced into a lethal force encounter you shouldn't be overly concerned about having to shoot into cars or through barriers.

Boris Bush
10-25-2008, 22:38
If you're a civilian gun carrier and you're having to shoot into a vehicle then you're doing something wrong. Your primary job is to avoid having to use deadly force, not go looking for it. Rarely if ever does a civilian gun carrier have to shoot into a car, unlike LEOs who spend a lot of time confronting scumbags behind the wheel of a car.

Take a look at the armed citizen page of the American Rifleman, which reports civilan deadly force encounters from across the country and see how many times people wind up shooting into cars let alone through walls or doors. And that is slim to none with slim on vacation. 99% of those encounters occur face to face or at very short distances (like at across the room distances).

So, is it best to loadup with ammo that is designed to expand in human tissue and not risk overpenetration for 99% of deadly force encounters that civilians encounter or use loads that will penetrate 12-18+"of gello AFTER defeating hard barriers like the FBI suggests?

If someone is so concerned about defeating barriers then why not just carry carry FMJ or AP ammo 100% of the time and not worry about up close encounters? It's called playing the odds. And if you play it right and do everything you can to avoid being forced into a lethal force encounter you shouldn't be overly concerned about having to shoot into cars or through barriers.

Makes sense for the most part, but the last time I thought I would have to shoot someone with my CCW was when I was in my car and there was some car glass between me and the person. FWIW I had my CZ-82 stoked with ball and already knew it would take 1-2 rounds to softenup the window and was prepared to sling atleast 3-25 rounds at the guy 2 feet from my window.

Wife went into a book store quickly while I stayed in the car with the kids. I was turned talking to my oldest, 4 at the time, when...... knock knock on my window. A bum was begging for money. Did not like the word no and got agressive. I offered him the $4.00 of ammo I had in my pistol........

The short version.

Moral, you might have to shoot out of your car someday. Be prepared for anything. Chances are if it ever goes down for you, it will happen exactly when you never practiced or trained for at the time you never thought it would in the last place you ever expected...

glock2740
10-26-2008, 11:02
There are better bullets out there, but they would work for SD by all means.

4570Lever
10-27-2008, 11:28
If you're a civilian gun carrier and you're having to shoot into a vehicle then you're doing something wrong. Your primary job is to avoid having to use deadly force, not go looking for it. Rarely if ever does a civilian gun carrier have to shoot into a car, unlike LEOs who spend a lot of time confronting scumbags behind the wheel of a car.


No you're NOT doing something wrong, you're faced with what you're faced with, and what you're faced with DOES NOT mean you went looking for it. Rarely is enough for me, in fact its a rare incident that I'd ever even have to use a gun at all, but like the stranger in town asking about crime rates, How often does anyone get killed around here?" The answer is the same everywhere you go.

"Only once."

I'll take the all -copper Cor-Bon DPX. You can be politically correct and dead, I'm sure they'll write something nice about you on your tombstone.

samuse
10-28-2008, 05:27
I like 'em. Very accurate in my 19 and 26. Shot a lot of rats with 'em. Would trust this round to sting a little if I got shot with it:whistling:

thegriz18
10-29-2008, 20:23
Just an FYI about the Golden Sabers- I shot them at the range a few days ago and I noticed a decent amount of spark, not flash. I could definitely see sparks flying from the muzzle. I didn't see any with the Gold Dots I shot. Just a FYI. Also, the Golden Sabers didn't seem to group well in my G23. Maybe it was me, but I want to shoot them again to make sure. The Gold Dots were right on target. Still, my G23 seems to really like Remington UMC 180gr JHP and WWB 165gr USA FMJ. It puts those rounds wherever you point it. Just an FYI.

CBennett
11-08-2009, 21:20
I just picked up a box of the 100 for my Glock 23 of the 180 grain JHP I have some older Golden Sabres I wil be shooting up as its about 3-4 years old now this UMC will replace it..cant complain about 100 rounds of .40 JHP for $32 thats what $16 a 50 and for JHP thats a good deal for them...great actually. These may not be my "go to" round for my range use but a couple boxes of these will have me in CC ammo for a good long time.

I almost grabbed a box of .45 ACP also it was $18 for 50 but someone nabbed it when the guy opened the door for me to look at the UMC for my .40 lol...I didnt really care cause I dont even have a .45 lol...but I figured someone that did would not have minded it for some range use for a cheap price(I assume from last I saw $18 for 50 FMJ .45 is a good deal???) they didnt have any 9mm today though..and just a few boxes of .40.

CBennett
03-01-2010, 09:44
There are better bullets out there, but they would work for SD by all means.

this would be my opinion just looking at various results from boards Gel tests ballistic comparisons based on FPS and expansion ..as many have said I have NOT shot this into Gel or wet pack to look at the results but for $25 for 100 115 grain JHP you cant go wrong and they will work...are there better profiles out there sure but if you want to practice with what you shoot this is a great way to do so...I like Gold Dots but at $18/20 round box...compared to $25/100 well if I want to splurge I may get the Gold Dot but if I see them I will get the 100 Rem JHP packs and they will be fine for practice OR self defense.

striker6126
03-01-2010, 11:34
I really like this ammo in 9mm ,.40 and .45. It is very accurate in all the weapons that I have used them in. That said I do not carry them in any of my sd weapons but would not hesitate to do so if needed . I do have hundreds or rounds of this ammo in each of the above calibers on hand.