Barack Obama Supporters. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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ChrisVV
11-05-2008, 14:22
The gift that keep on giving.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Ovcdb6csHBE

A friend of mine who voted for this piece of crap called me today to say whats up. I asked him how he's liking his change. You would have thought this guy won the lotto because obama won.

I asked him why he voted for him.

He told me it was time for a change. :faint:

HOU1PTT
11-05-2008, 20:48
The gift that keep on giving.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Ovcdb6csHBE

A friend of mine who voted for this piece of crap called me today to say whats up. I asked him how he's liking his change. You would have thought this guy won the lotto because obama won.

I asked him why he voted for him.

He told me it was time for a change. :faint:


Classic my friend...... UNREAL....:rofl:

ChrisVV
11-06-2008, 08:34
Today on my way to the office I saw many Obama Signs still in yards. No McCain Signs. I even saw a guy whoes yard was covered in McCain signs two days ago with a signless yard and sadly pealing his bumpersticker off his rear window.

Change.

03 Jarhead
11-06-2008, 15:54
:rofl::rofl: Can you say MORONS?!:rofl::rofl:

yongxingfreesty
11-06-2008, 16:13
LOL. Good stuff to watch, cant believe these people.

samuse
11-06-2008, 16:58
:rofl::rofl: Can you say MORONS?!:rofl::rofl:


...these are our fellow Americans... makes me damn proud

JMag
11-06-2008, 17:05
...just some more "home-grown" boys (and girls) without a clue.

meshmdz
11-06-2008, 18:08
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

KeithS
11-06-2008, 20:19
Uh..........he isn't the president.

I_Win40
11-06-2008, 20:53
I haven't heard the word change so much since watching the South Park Night of the Living Homeless episode.
http://www.comedycentral.com/press/images/southpark/1107NightoftheLivingHomeless.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yufGvvXSxw4:rofl:

meshmdz
11-07-2008, 08:29
Uh..........he isn't the president.

Uh he was ELECTED the next American President 3 nights ago... Where were you? :upeyes:

KeithS
11-07-2008, 09:52
I repeat....he is NOT the president. He is the president ELECT. Surely you can survive for a couple of months.

Where was I? I was fishing on the San Juan River.

Glock2008
11-07-2008, 11:07
I really do hope Obama keeps the change

PAGunner
11-07-2008, 11:16
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

Mesh, you seem like a good guy, but a bit naive. I'm 99% sure you will look back on your current political views one day and think to yourself, "what the hell was I thinking". You remind me of me a little bit when I was 17.

Anyway, I'm in medical school, surrounded by people who are educated, and the few times politics have come up and someone said they wanted to vote for Obama, I asked them why, and I got the same deer in the headlight look. If you think Obama is gonna fix the economy, you are sadly mistaken. If you ever get the time, read some of Milton Friedman's old books or articles in the Wall Street Journal, he is the greatest economic mind of the 20th century, just died a few years ago. It will be a real eye opener for you, I promise.

PAGunner
11-07-2008, 11:17
I really do hope Obama keeps the change

Ha, that woulda been the cover of national review if Obama would have lost.

03 Jarhead
11-07-2008, 12:42
...these are our fellow Americans... makes me damn proud


Uh..............sorry. What was I thinking. Oh, that I could use some change for the vending machine.:rofl:

ChrisVV
11-07-2008, 14:45
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

Every person who voted for Obama is and was clueless.

If a person walked into the voting booth and voted for a candidate because he was going to give them change or because they were better then the current president in their eyes, if that is your reason for voting then you should have stayed home.

Clueless zombies need not vote.

My mother and father both voted for this piece of garbage. Are they clueless, yes. They drank the cool aid. I never thought of my parents as being gullible. I hated bush, I got that, I could understand why, but Obama was not running against bush. I once respected my fathers political views. Things changed after I realized he was pulling for this guy. When I heard that after everything I had told him he still dragged my mother in there and they both voted for Obama, I felt sick to my stomach. I lost a little bit of respect for both of my parents that day.

The next time I spoke with him on the phone neither of us mentioned it, probably better that way.

The saddest part is one day very soon I will have the chance to say "I told you so", but I will not have the heart.

And no, Obama is not my President.

farnhamj
11-07-2008, 16:43
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

Its amazing that for 8 years you left wingers can dump on anything that GWB does from he speeches to actions to dialog but the moment anyone says anything contrary to your views or your new pres-elect obamassager or whatever, you call it "vile rhetoric" friggin amazing. What's the next step...we are all racist who don't fall in line with the BS?

ColtsFan
11-08-2008, 11:46
I read in the Indianapolis Star the other day that 70% of the people that voted in this state (Indiana) said that race was of no consideration. Around 56% of white voters voted for McCain while 90% (yes, I said 90) of black voters voted for Obama.

...but race was of no consideration... really.

Chase7
11-08-2008, 13:12
Barack Obama Supporters.

I asked him why he voted for him.

He told me it was time for a change.
Here send him this..
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Chase777/Antichrists.jpg

And these to :) ...

spdski
11-08-2008, 13:14
I remember when I heard someone say that Bush is not their president, the right responded by saying "If you don't like this country, you can leave."

Well. To all of you who want say it about Obama, feel free to leave. Otherwise, suck it up, and act like you live in a democracy because you do. Next time volunteer for the candidate you want, call your congressman when you have an opinion, f-ing DO SOMETHING.

This country rewards effort.

P.S. Calling someone a piece of crap is vile rhetoric.

Pinki
11-08-2008, 18:37
You support blind Nationalism then? That person didn't like Bush -- he didn't say he didn't like AMERICA. I'm fine with Bush, but I am NOT fine with Obama. Would you support MAO if you were in China during his time? Would you support Castro if you were in Cuba during his time? Do I think Obama is Castro or Mao? Perhaps not, but I think he's foul. I think there are a whole lot of people that are proud of themselves for voting for him. I think they are going to be sorely disappointed. Obama is NOT what America is all about. He is NOT the American way. He's the Socialist Republic way and he is ANTI gun. ANTI GUN is ANTI American. America is about her history, about cowboys, about GUNS, about mavericks! Another Reagan is what we need :patriot:

walangkatapat
11-08-2008, 18:55
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

Of course the left has never said anything vile about our current Prez.

Pinki
11-08-2008, 19:21
Of course the left has never said anything vile about our current Prez.

Of course not -- that would be unAmerican! :shocked::rofl::rofl:

Pinki
11-08-2008, 19:21
The left has never burned flags either!


Yeah right.

Dandapani
11-08-2008, 20:03
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8681/hope4changeeq0.jpg

Pinki
11-08-2008, 20:53
Obama is a girly man.....

Des547
11-08-2008, 21:11
I am reminded of the old saw, "Be careful of what you wish, you might get it." All those Democrats who have longed for a Democrat in the White House now have one. God watch over us !

Our country has weathered crisis before and I trust that we will weather this one also. Yes, change is a coming but we must stand by our Constitution and take an active part in protecting it.

Desmond

17z
11-08-2008, 22:57
I cannot trust Obama with change. I get better change from McDonalds. 17z

tauntdesigns
11-08-2008, 23:26
Last time we had a DEM in office our country had a surplus of money. :)

ColtsFan
11-09-2008, 09:54
Last time we had a DEM in office our country had a surplus of money. :)

The last time someone raised taxes on business during a recession, we had a depression.

freakshow10mm
11-09-2008, 10:12
Last time we had a DEM in office our country had a surplus of money. :)
Because Clinton rode the wave that Regan put into place. Cut corporate taxes, corporations now have more money to reinvest. That creates jobs and sparks the economy.

tauntdesigns
11-09-2008, 10:27
I remember when Ragan went into office and stopped domestic oil and the oil businesses all went bankrupt. Helped big business and all the small companies had to close their doors. Unemployment was close to an all time high.

The past 8 yrs went from a surplus to a great big deficient and unemployment is once again at a all time high.

My other post was a WOW moment. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. I'm sorry if I did......

meshmdz
11-09-2008, 10:34
Of course the left has never said anything vile about our current Prez.

Men, a few responses....

Yes, the left has stated a number of times that GWB has done wrong things, ignored reports in regards to his foreign policy decision making, twisted intel to get authorization from Congress for wars, etc.. Various bi-partisan investigatory committees have proven this. However, the difference is this. GWB has had 8 years AS President. Obama hasnt even had a day in office yet. I think and he will be under the same scrutiny as GWB was under. Obama needs to be watched closely and held accountable for the things he does and says he will do. When he doesnt come through, if in fact he doesnt, he needs to be called on it and exposed by Americans that hold him accountable - just as GWB was.

TO the guy who mentioned Mao in China - to relate an American President to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc, is just ****ing wrong. Get off the right wing cool-aid. If you dont like him, fine, but to equate him to murderers is ****ing disgusting. :steamed:

I am hopeful for Obama and his admin. We must keep a close eye on him and hold he and his admin accountable for the things they do. If he hasnt done what he has stated or made substantial efforts in those directions, then we shouldnt re-elect him in 2012.

Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

ColtsFan
11-09-2008, 11:12
Men, a few responses....

Yes, the left has stated a number of times that GWB has done wrong things, ignored reports in regards to his foreign policy decision making, twisted intel to get authorization from Congress for wars, etc.. Various bi-partisan investigatory committees have proven this. However, the difference is this. GWB has had 8 years AS President. Obama hasnt even had a day in office yet. I think and he will be under the same scrutiny as GWB was under. Obama needs to be watched closely and held accountable for the things he does and says he will do. When he doesnt come through, if in fact he doesnt, he needs to be called on it and exposed by Americans that hold him accountable - just as GWB was.

TO the guy who mentioned Mao in China - to relate an American President to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc, is just ****ing wrong. Get off the right wing cool-aid. If you dont like him, fine, but to equate him to murderers is ****ing disgusting. :steamed:

I am hopeful for Obama and his admin. We must keep a close eye on him and hold he and his admin accountable for the things they do. If he hasnt done what he has stated or made substantial efforts in those directions, then we shouldnt re-elect him in 2012.

Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

A big part of the reason he is under so much criticism already is because of his tactics in getting elected. He has already proven that he will lie and deliberately mislead the American people now, so why should we expect less of him as President? He got a free pass from the mainstream media throughout his campaign. We will give him a fair shot as we have no choice, but I think he has well-earned some of the criticism he has received from the people that aren't drinking the other Kool-Aid...

PAGunner
11-09-2008, 13:03
Men, a few responses....

Yes, the left has stated a number of times that GWB has done wrong things, ignored reports in regards to his foreign policy decision making, twisted intel to get authorization from Congress for wars, etc.. Various bi-partisan investigatory committees have proven this. However, the difference is this. GWB has had 8 years AS President. Obama hasnt even had a day in office yet. I think and he will be under the same scrutiny as GWB was under. Obama needs to be watched closely and held accountable for the things he does and says he will do. When he doesnt come through, if in fact he doesnt, he needs to be called on it and exposed by Americans that hold him accountable - just as GWB was.

TO the guy who mentioned Mao in China - to relate an American President to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc, is just ****ing wrong. Get off the right wing cool-aid. If you dont like him, fine, but to equate him to murderers is ****ing disgusting. :steamed:

I am hopeful for Obama and his admin. We must keep a close eye on him and hold he and his admin accountable for the things they do. If he hasnt done what he has stated or made substantial efforts in those directions, then we shouldnt re-elect him in 2012.

Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

Mesh, that is a good honest post from you. I will make a couple of points.

1. Many of us (who voted for GWB) are not thrilled with his presidency. He spent like a drunken sailor, going to war with Iraq in the way we did was very questionable, he let us gun owners down by saying he would sign another AWB & supporting the DC gun ban and while I liked many of his proposals he ran on in 2004, he signed into law virtually non of them. (privatization of social security, flat tax or at least fixing the tax code, and charter schools for the broken public school beaucracy).

2. Obama has been scrutinized a lot thus far because he has been far from honest about many issues (his positions on gun control for instance), including all his shady relationships with reverend Wright, Bill Ayers, Tony Rezko.

I hope Obama does govern from the center like he has implied in statements since winning the elections. He has spoken like a president, but his actions are telling a different story. Rahm Emanuel is as partisan as they come, and this is who Obama picked to be the second most powerful man in Washington? We all know the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words".

Another thing to realize about Obama, I believe he is full of "good intentions" (at least in his mind), but the results of his policy may very well be devastating. Congress has already stated they wish to cut military spending by 25%, Obama has stated he wants to "stop all future weapons programs", and he has also stated his desire to significantly decrease our nuclear weapons programs unilaterally. Do you not think this will inspire our enemies see how far they can push the U.S. around? I garantee this is what is going to happen. Ahmadinejad sent Obama a letter congratulating him, first time this has happened since the revolution in Iran.

I vote on 3 broad issues: Economy/Taxes, National Defense & Freedom/Liberty.

Here is my breakdown of Obama V. McCain:

Economy: McCain wins because of his energy policy (this DIRECTLY effects the economy), Obama has said he will "bankrupt" the coal industry, he is not in favor of opening up our continental shelves for drilling or drilling in Anwar, nor does he like nuclear power either. Even the messiah cannot legislate an energy miracle, you can't fix our energy issue with wind power alone. Technological breakthroughs come via the free market much more efficiently and quickly than they do from government (thats a big reason why the USA wont the cold war and not the USSR).

For example, research the Chevy Volt, the US is acutally ahead of the world in alternative energy in large part thanks to GM developing the ability to mass produce the lithium ion battery car (of course, the messiah will take credit for this, even though I've been talking about the Chevy Volt for a year and a half now as a reason to invest in GM now, but hey, what do I know). With this new technology, the increased demand for electricity will increase. If we play our cards right with nuclear power, we could cheaply heat every home in the country and power our vehicles and be completely energy independant (national security, see how these issues intertwine).

The messiah will not build the nuclear power plants we need, nor will he authorize or lobby congress to allow for more domestic drilling. Notice I didn't even need to mention taxes in my economy argument? I could teach a course on why the messiah's tax plan will ruin the economy, but lets keep the issues simple for now.

National Security: McCain wins, because of what I've previously said about the messiah unilaterally disarming our nuclear arsenal, cutting all future weapons programs and allowing the democratically controlled congress to cut military funding by 25%. Notice how Ahmadinejad congratulated Obama on his win? We will now be tested by our enemies who see weakness in our nation. Ahmadinejad believes it is his duty to awaken the 12th Imam (the Mahdi) and to do this, he believes he must cause "great chaos" (ie, "wipe Israel out in 1 storm). What do you think that will lead to? Notice how Russia started saber rattling the day after the election and how Putin is attempting to get the Russian constitution changed so he can be president again? Its because our enemies see weakness. I am a firm believer in peace through strength, Obama believes in peace through weakness.

Freedom/Liberty: Obama has used Chicago political tactics to silence and defame his critics thus far, so we know he doesn't believe in freedom of speech (when you disagree with him). The dems are already talking about implimenting the "Fairness Doctrine" (ie, restriction on 1A, gotta love how libs always mislabel bills they propose because they know most people won't read them) and implimenting an AWB at the very least (restriction on 2A). Couple that with the increased spending/taxes we are sure to see, Obama has one hell of a plan to "change" (take) freedoms away from the American people.

I could keep going, but I'll stop here. I'm sure you had your reasons for voting for Obama (maybe you could explain), but the majority of Obama supporters did not vote for Obama on policy/philosophy/positions. My aunt who is 56 voted for the first time in her life (she hasn't worked in decades, btw) for Obama, I asked her why and she could not explain, other than she thinks Obama is gonna give her more money (but I'm sure she didn't want to say that).

But of course, Obama is our President-Elect, we all have to hope for the best. I'm skeptically supporting his administration, but my gut tells me it won't be long before we see the country circling the toilet. I wish the dems woulda ran Jim Webb, I probably would have voted for him over McCain, and I'm sure Webb would won, considering it was the dems year, but running a socialist v. a blue dog is very telling of the far left shift the democratic party has taken since the days of JFK. Off my soap box!!!


:soap::soap::soap::soap:

Front Sight
11-09-2008, 14:49
There were far to many people taking their freedom for granted in this last election.

ChrisVV
11-10-2008, 01:30
Men, a few responses....

Yes, the left has stated a number of times that GWB has done wrong things, ignored reports in regards to his foreign policy decision making, twisted intel to get authorization from Congress for wars, etc.. Various bi-partisan investigatory committees have proven this. However, the difference is this. GWB has had 8 years AS President. Obama hasnt even had a day in office yet. I think and he will be under the same scrutiny as GWB was under. Obama needs to be watched closely and held accountable for the things he does and says he will do. When he doesnt come through, if in fact he doesnt, he needs to be called on it and exposed by Americans that hold him accountable - just as GWB was.

TO the guy who mentioned Mao in China - to relate an American President to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc, is just ****ing wrong. Get off the right wing cool-aid. If you dont like him, fine, but to equate him to murderers is ****ing disgusting. :steamed:

I am hopeful for Obama and his admin. We must keep a close eye on him and hold he and his admin accountable for the things they do. If he hasnt done what he has stated or made substantial efforts in those directions, then we shouldnt re-elect him in 2012.

Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

You are delusional.

TrptProf
11-10-2008, 10:51
Just remember, Obama sold his soul to the hard left(amongst others). We'll see how he governs when it's time to "pay the piper."




God Bless America!

Kevin108
11-10-2008, 15:33
I can support part of the message of this video! Check out the left-hand corner @ 8:43! :wavey:

farnhamj
11-10-2008, 15:40
This country rewards effort.



No. This country rewards the upper class, silver-spoon fed children of the elite. This country in no way rewards effort, either rep or dem.

farnhamj
11-10-2008, 15:45
Last time we had a DEM in office our country had a surplus of money. :)

And Whitewater, and infidelity in the white house, and many people wrongly assassinated(oh wait, non proved conspiricy theory, I will leave that one out)

I guess it just depends on where your morals are on your priority list. I know where mine are.

farnhamj
11-10-2008, 15:48
amazes me that BO has already stated that the door is still open to chages in his proposed tax cut plans. Flip-flopping already.

farnhamj
11-10-2008, 15:51
Men, a few responses....


Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

You left wingers amaze me. you bash on Bush, call all sorts of names, critisize decisions, and whatever else you can think of but now you have the audacity to say rally behind the new Dem prez cause he will make a difference. Correct me if I am wrong but behind the all might new prez there is still the DEM led House and Congress that has been screwing things up for the last 4 years. Explain where the change will come? except from our middle class pockets.

farnhamj
11-10-2008, 15:59
To many people said "I am voting for Obama. Not because I like him but because I don't like Bush" Amazing. He wasn't even running. 2 people in my own family stated that. I guess I just don't understand.

tauntdesigns
11-10-2008, 16:21
:rofl:Blaa, Blaa, Blaaa :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Like I said, I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...

Left and right hasn't done that good of a job in.... I can't remember when! Both sides have their secrets.

I still would not live anywhere else................

Colorado4Wheel
11-10-2008, 16:30
One of the worst thing we have going on in America right now is the divisiveness as displayed in this thread and lack of understanding about how there can be another view besides your own. Obama did not get elected because he spouted off "Change" a bunch. To be honest, McCain lost the election because he had a poorly delivered message, lost his way during his campaign and failed to connect with the American people. He had a liar like "Joe the Plumber" as a spokesman. I mean come on, that’s just not going to work. Gun control is not the only issue in America and people failure to understand the other side of an argument just shows them to be narrow minded. Narrow minded people are not going to be able to effectively defend their own rights because they can not debate in an effective manner. We need to learn that not everyone believes like us and that does not make them stupid. Misinformed, perhaps, but not stupid. In many ways, we as gun owners are our own worst enemies because we cannot put ourselves in others shoes long enough to understand them so that we can effectively defend ourselves with out sounding angry or stupid ourselves.

spdski
11-10-2008, 16:35
One of the worst thing we have going on in America right now is the divisiveness as displayed in this thread and lack of understanding about how there can be another view besides your own. Obama did not get elected because he spouted off "Change" a bunch. To be honest, McCain lost the election because he had a poorly delivered message, lost his way during his campaign and failed to connect with the American people. He had a liar like "Joe the Plumber" as a spokesman. I mean come on, that’s just not going to work. Gun control is not the only issue in America and people failure to understand the other side of an argument just shows them to be narrow minded. Narrow minded people are not going to be able to effectively defend their own rights because they can not debate in an effective manner. We need to learn that not everyone believes like us and that does not make them stupid. Misinformed, perhaps, but not stupid. In many ways, we as gun owners are our own worst enemies because we cannot put ourselves in others shoes long enough to understand them so that we can effectively defend ourselves with out sounding angry or stupid ourselves.


:goodpost: This is likely the smartest post I have read on GT since the election.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/bob_blog/winner.jpg
Colorado4Wheel

JMag
11-10-2008, 20:34
[QUOTE=spdski;11627417]:goodpost: This is likely the smartest post I have read on GT since the election.

If so, you really need to get around a bit more in GT...

:upeyes:

kimberguy2004
11-11-2008, 16:05
The only thing I can think of at this moment, besides trying to overcome the urge to throw everything I pick up is the disdain that I hold for Hussein Obama and all of the morons that voted for him. If you even begin to think that he is what this country needs, and I'm not just talking about 2nd Ammendment Rights, then you are as big an idiot as he is. I don't like him, or anything he stands for and I could really give a rat's ass what happens to him. I would, however, ask that you show those of us who still love this country to wear a black armband when in public so I will know , in the event the SHTF, not to raise my weapon to defend your sorry asses.. Want to know how I really feel about that piece of garbage?

Front Sight
11-11-2008, 17:21
I have decided that on December 31, 2008 to take the stars and strips down. My bare flag pole will be a symbolic reminder how the dumbing down of America has caught up with us and how too many people took their freedom for granted.
However, I still would like to know if that newly registered voter residing in the park at BENCH # 8 has seen much of a "change".
My last question when the president elect laid the wraith at Arlington National Cemetery did he step back and salute?

kimberguy2004
11-11-2008, 19:12
Why would he? He wouldn't even wear a flag lapel pin because it might offend those who would see our country brought to it's knees. There's no question what his colors are and to whom his loyalty goes. He's a real piece of work..

Atomsk
11-11-2008, 21:35
I remember when I heard someone say that Bush is not their president, the right responded by saying "If you don't like this country, you can leave."

Well. To all of you who want say it about Obama, feel free to leave. Otherwise, suck it up, and act like you live in a democracy because you do. Next time volunteer for the candidate you want, call your congressman when you have an opinion, f-ing DO SOMETHING.

This country rewards effort.

P.S. Calling someone a piece of crap is vile rhetoric.

I couldn't of said it better myself. After McCain lost he stated that he serves this country and it's leaders including the president. I voted for McCain, but no matter how i feel about Obama's views i still love this country and will support my country.

kimberguy2004
11-12-2008, 07:08
I voted for McCain, but no matter how i feel about Obama's views i still love this country and will support my country.

I love this country enough to NOT support Hussein's views on anything and I do not and will not.. Period!!! None of them!!! It's hard to believe that anyone who was ever willing to serve their country and give our lives, as some of us did, to protect the freedoms and rights that we enjoy would even think about supporting a socialist that is hell bent on eroding our freedoms and confiscating the assets we have worked hard for so they can be distributed to a bunch of government sucking parasites who never bothered to take enough initiative to make themselves worth more than a $8/hr job at Taco Bell.
Support, praise, tolerate him, whatever you want to do. Think about that when you are sitting and watching the mailbox for your government handout and looking back on $4 gas as the "good ole days". If Hussein and his Communist chronies are allowed to run amok for the next for years, it's going to take this country a generation to recover, if it ever does.. Good Luck, America. You're going to need it, and thank God that I don't have a child that's going to have to grow up in what our country is about to become.

Jimlakeside
11-12-2008, 07:11
The election is OVER. All of the sour grapes in the world won't change that. Let's get on with the hard work of supporting the changes we want and fighting the changes that we don't work.

freakshow10mm
11-12-2008, 07:41
I have decided that on December 31, 2008 to take the stars and strips down. My bare flag pole will be a symbolic reminder how the dumbing down of America has caught up with us and how too many people took their freedom for granted.
However, I still would like to know if that newly registered voter residing in the park at BENCH # 8 has seen much of a "change".
My last question when the president elect laid the wraith at Arlington National Cemetery did he step back and salute?
Hang it upside down. That means distress.

Lady Glock
11-12-2008, 08:45
The past 8 yrs went from a surplus to a great big deficient and unemployment is once again at a all time high.
Unemployment all time high was during the depression when it was 25% ... We're nowhere close to that.

Colorado4Wheel
11-12-2008, 08:50
We throw words like "Socialist" around and pin them to who we don't like. But we give Republicans and those who support our gun cause (not all republicans of course) a free pass when they do the same thing. The reality is we could hurl these things at anyone we wanted in government. ANYONE. It does not prove your cause or make your view valid. It's a hollow argument because all for them all guilty of the same thing to one degree or another. The reality is the world is Grey. There is very little black and white in our world. Other then killing, extremism (religious, political, they are all bad). Fundamentalism is one of the worst things this World is battling right now. We need to be cautious that we as Americans are not just as extreme as the rest of the world. I lived in between America and Europe till I was 16 (not military, born in Texas). I am constantly surprised at the lack of acceptance or even comfort in discussing opposing views. It seems over the last 20 + years we have become even more polarized as a nation. It’s like we all walk around and say in our minds “If you don’t believe like me I HATE YOU. Then we begin marginalizing people. It’s dangerous. Look what it has done to other nations. Iran for instance was a Persian country taken over by extremist that used HATE as their energy. I have seen what this same process has brought to Europe over the last 20 years. Iran with out the fundamentalism and the hate would be a very different place then it is today.

PAGunner
11-12-2008, 13:44
We throw words like "Socialist" around and pin them to who we don't like. But we give Republicans and those who support our gun cause (not all republicans of course) a free pass when they do the same thing. The reality is we could hurl these things at anyone we wanted in government. ANYONE.

Anyone? How bout Ron Paul or Bob Barr? You don't know what you are talking about, many of us have called John McCain a quasi-socialist also, Mr. "I can fixsshhh the mortgage crisis", he just happened to be the lesser of two evils. The republican party leadership has lost its way and become socialist (this is why the republicans have gotten their clocks cleaned 2 elections in a row, people are hungry for true libertarian/conservative philosophy), its destruction & subsequent period of being rebuilt was inevitable, but of course, it is painful when it happens.

To say that I dislike socialists is an understatement, and you think that makes me a bad guy, please. The problem with socialism is that it imposes its will on everyone, where libertarian/conservative philosophy does not impose its will on you, it supports freedom and liberty, which is exactly what separates us from the rest of the world, it is why there is American exceptionalism. Freedom and liberty allow people to become who they were destined to be, it also allows people to see what they are made of. We've all faced adversity at one point or another. Socialism seeks to do away with your adversity in a broad sword kinda way, and when this happens, you are robbed of your ambition, which is what drives you to push yourself and become a net positive for society, and it also happens to be the path to making a happy life for yourself. So your absolutely right, I have a serious problem when you have a president who does not like the constitution, actively admits he wants to appoint judges who will ignore it, and he would like to mae a "new constitution" (ie, garanteed healthcare, housing, etc., listen to his 2001 NPR interview if you don't believe me, you can hear it in Barry's own words), in which those who are driven pay/work for those who do not wish to be a net positive for society.

I make no apologizes for my beliefs. This isn't about going one way or the other, as if it is a grey area of what is good. This is about right and wrong. Freedom and liberty are right, and a big government imposing its will on you is out right wrong.

Colorado4Wheel
11-12-2008, 14:17
Anyone? How bout Ron Paul or Bob Barr?

I was talking about real politicians. Not people who have zero chance of getting elected.

And I never said you not liking socialism makes you anything. Thats kind of my point to not do those things.

Colorado4Wheel
11-12-2008, 15:03
Fundamentalism

2: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles <Islamic fundamentalism> <political fundamentalism>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fundamentalism

Hate
1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>2: an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business — F. L. Paxson>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hate

Marginalizing
to relegate to an unimportant or powerless position within a society or group


Political and Religious Fundementailism has led to hate and it has been suggested on this forum that it is OK to marginalize people who do not believe as they believe. Fundamentalism and hate is the cause of 9/11. Marginalization is precurser to many, many bad things that have happened in this world.

We need to learn how to disagree with out hate. Tollerance is what makes us a great society. Lack of tollerance is what brings a society to really bad places.

PAGunner
11-12-2008, 19:19
Fundamentalism

2: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles <Islamic fundamentalism> <political fundamentalism>


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fundamentalism

Hate
1 a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b: extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>2: an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business ó F. L. Paxson>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hate

Marginalizing
to relegate to an unimportant or powerless position within a society or group


Political and Religious Fundementailism has led to hate and it has been suggested on this forum that it is OK to marginalize people who do not believe as they believe. Fundamentalism and hate is the cause of 9/11. Marginalization is precurser to many, many bad things that have happened in this world.

We need to learn how to disagree with out hate. Tollerance is what makes us a great society. Lack of tollerance is what brings a society to really bad places.

1. I disagree with your assessment, IMO you have it backwards. Liberal/socialists try to marginalize conservatives, libertarians and gun owners. They have little tolerance for us. I guess by the literal definition of fundamentalist, I'm a constitutional fundamentalist, call me a kook. I guess its not in style to interpret the constitution literally., the basis for the greatest country the world has ever seen. :upeyes:

Chase7
11-13-2008, 06:53
To put it in more simple terms McCain is a Patriot who at least wanted to do well for this country ..Obama on the other had is NOT a patriot and MORE than likely wants the worst for this country and its silly Obamaton people...
http://nukegingrich.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/video-proof-obama-will-destroy-america/
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?RsrcID=2036
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYEiwR2KklM
http://thelizardannex.blogspot.com/2008/09/obama-pathological-liar.html

Gamecock94
11-13-2008, 07:10
How's this for unity?

So I'm driving in this AM and notice a car about 5 cars back driving with their brights on (don't you love those!?). The car eventually makes it way up and passes me and I look over to read the following written in big, white, shoe polish

"Dear Haters, Your President is Black...Honk for Obama!"

I feel the love, don't you? Later on down the road I see here running about 45 on the highway (everyone running 60+) in an obvious attempt to draw attention to herself. I'm glad that this country is to the point where they can elect a ethnic (note, not black, he's of mixed decent people) President (even though I didn't vote for him), but this is "playing the race card". I don't go for that....ignorant people.

Colorado4Wheel
11-13-2008, 08:07
1. I disagree with your assessment, IMO you have it backwards. Liberal/socialists try to marginalize conservatives, libertarians and gun owners. They have little tolerance for us. I guess by the literal definition of fundamentalist, I'm a constitutional fundamentalist, call me a kook. I guess its not in style to interpret the constitution literally., the basis for the greatest country the world has ever seen. :upeyes:

It's not right when anyone does it. Also, I am not saying give up your fight. Never said that. Just be aware of your own attitudes in the process. . I am simply saying that Hate, Political Fundmentalism and Marginaliziing people are not good things. You should be able to support your views wtih out going to those extreems.

Colorado4Wheel
11-13-2008, 09:44
My reason for mentioning all this stuff is this belief. I don't think we can effectively advocate for our gun rights with out showing that we as gun owners are not pure fundementalist that hate the other side for believing how they believe. The group that appears more resonable will win in the end is my view. I want us to effectively be able to argue our case. Not just spout hate and venom as we seem to see all to much of lately on a variety of boards.

PAGunner
11-13-2008, 10:20
My reason for mentioning all this stuff is this belief. I don't think we can effectively advocate for our gun rights with out showing that we as gun owners are not pure fundementalist that hate the other side for believing how they believe. The group that appears more resonable will win in the end is my view. I want us to effectively be able to argue our case. Not just spout hate and venom as we seem to see all to much of lately on a variety of boards.

There is nothing reasonable about wanting to "fundamentally change" the country/constitution and ignoring the constitution of the United States of America.

Colorado4Wheel
11-13-2008, 10:27
There is nothing reasonable about wanting to "fundamentally change" the country/constitution and ignoring the constitution of the United States of America.

It's like talking to a wall.

Resonable discussion does not mean you agree or that you accept their position. It just means you are mature enough to treat them respectfully enough to properly debate the issue. Not result to hatefull, dogmatic retoric that will alienate and never help the cause.

Chase7
11-13-2008, 10:35
It just means you are mature enough to treat them respectfully enough to properly debate the issue. Not result to hatefull, dogmatic retoric that will alienate and never help the cause.
ah ..You mean like Obama's example at the end of this video clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGz9P9m8ys
(also check 1:06)

Colorado4Wheel
11-13-2008, 10:40
Sure, spend time justifying your hate. When the person who debates better then you helps take your gun rights you will still have your hate to hang on to. No politician can take the rights with out first winning the some important votes. Getting the average person (your neighbor/coworker) to understand your position is to me far more important then your HATE. If all those neighbors/coworkers see is your hate then you have very little chance of influencing them in a positive way at all.

spdski
11-13-2008, 10:49
There is nothing reasonable about wanting to "fundamentally change" the country/constitution and ignoring the constitution of the United States of America.

Yup.

The Civil War, Women's Suffrage, Civil Rights movement, etc.... all completely unreasonable.

ah ..You mean like Obama's example at the end of this video clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnEhmbKazdw

I am so amazed that you have never used your middle finger to scratch your face. If you really think that he was flicking off John McCain, then I have some awesome ocean front property to sell in you in Arizona.

Chase7
11-13-2008, 11:13
Oi Vey :whistling: ..No I haven't ..And I definitely have some to swamp land here to sell You ;)

spdski
11-13-2008, 11:19
Oi Vey :whistling: No ..And I definitely have some to swamp land here to sell You ;)

Only if the government bails me out of the Adjustable Rate mortgage I plan to use to buy it! ;)

Colorado4Wheel
11-13-2008, 11:21
If i had cameras on me all the time they would catch me scratching my balls, picking my nose and fondling both my guns at night. It would be shamefull and I would never stand a chance.

Chase7
11-13-2008, 11:49
ok Heres a better version showing Him Blatantly flipping Hillary @1:06 and 1:17
added: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guGz9P9m8ys

PAGunner
11-13-2008, 12:31
If i had cameras on me all the time they would catch me scratching my balls, picking my nose and fondling both my guns at night. It would be shamefull and I would never stand a chance.

Dang, I thought I was the only one. :rofl:

PAGunner
11-13-2008, 12:35
Yup.

The Civil War, Women's Suffrage, Civil Rights movement, etc.... all completely unreasonable.


what is the etc.? I'm just curious what else you are talking about. Civil Rights movement, civil war and Women's suffrage were all righteous, considering Thomas Jefferson had "all men are created equal" written into the declaration of independance. What modern issue that needs to be "changed" have you identified that is clearly against our founding fathers intent?

Atomsk
11-14-2008, 01:57
I love this country enough to NOT support Hussein's views on anything and I do not and will not.. Period!!! .

If your view of a country is only one man at the top of the executive branch of a government I respectfully say i do not agree. When i said i love this country and support it i meant the people that have lived and died to protect and create this place i call home. This is my opinion and what you say is yours, but some people worry about things that our president elect has stated that he will do but who knows if he will ever get the chance to do so. There are so many problems in this country that some thiings must be left to the side and how will we ever predict what those things will and will not be.

meshmdz
11-15-2008, 10:18
wow, this thread is getting good! I am enjoying being on the sideline for once and watching other guys who are moderates shoot down some of the outlandish claims of many right-wing nut jobs. (i.e - the idiot who doesnt support our nation because the President that was overwhelmingly elected wasnt his pick...)


...let me get some popcorn.

Kevin108
11-16-2008, 14:44
What modern issue that needs to be "changed" have you identified that is clearly against our founding fathers intent?

Income tax, personal property tax, gun control, the dept. of education, the federal reserve, NAFTA...and that's without taking a breath.

citori59
11-16-2008, 15:10
I really don't have a problem for the real Obama supporters that truly believe in him and his politics. I have a problem for all the morons that voted for Obama because they wanted change. Didn't the Germans do that in 1933?

farnhamj
11-16-2008, 15:14
I really don't have a problem for the real Obama supporters that truly believe in him and his politics. I have a problem for all the morons that voted for Obama because they wanted change. Didn't the Germans do that in 1933?


Or the ones who voted for Obama becuase they hated Bush

meshmdz
11-16-2008, 15:20
McCain = more Bush policies. He voted with the Bush agenda 94% of the time. Change??? Give me a break.

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2008, 16:43
Income tax, personal property tax, gun control, the dept. of education, the federal reserve, NAFTA...and that's without taking a breath.

Income tax paid for the Cival War, and every war after that. Paid our roads and usered us into the 21st century. With out income taxes we would probably all be speaking German right now.

PAGunner
11-16-2008, 17:53
Income tax paid for the Cival War, and every war after that. Paid our roads and usered us into the 21st century. With out income taxes we would probably all be speaking German right now.

Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.

Colorado4Wheel
11-16-2008, 20:13
So then who gets to decide how much is too much? Oh, we already answered that question; it's in the constitution and the Amendment 19 of that Constitution.

I do agree a flat tax would be great, but it would also eliminate a lot of tax breaks that some people really need. It's all flawed. It's really flawed when people making Billion + every year pay less percent wise then we do. I would be fine with a flat tax if it actually meant the rich paid it just like I did.

meshmdz
11-17-2008, 20:59
Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.

though i disagree PAGunner, I respect this post. Well-stated and substantiated as well sir.

spdski
11-18-2008, 07:34
Clearly some tax is needed for infrastructure, national defense and LIMITED social programs (limited to a select few programs that "help people help themselves") are needed, but not a big nanny state government. I am also a believer that the so called "progressive" income tax is a net negative to the economy. I believe in a consumption tax, I don't believe you should be taxed when you make money, or at the very least, a flat tax rate, because it promotes hard work by not penalizing it.

:goodpost:

I am with you on the flat tax. If I were to implement it, I would have a certain standard exemption. Like, no tax on the first 25k for everyone. Otherwise no credits, deductions, etc. Make the system simple and have it effect everyone equally.

I don't like the consumption tax because it encourages people to hide their money away and would mean that the poor were pay a lot more in proportion to the rich. I prefer it to be an even percentage.

CPT_CRUNCH
11-18-2008, 12:47
Now - however, it is time to rally behind the American President to be and support him, regardless of feelings pro or con for this man. He IS our President to be and if we become one people and support him, while holding him accountable, I think we will see positive things in this nation.

for all you that hate obama, didnt vote for him, dont believe in him... blah, blah, blah...
i know you all still love this country and want to see her flourish once again. you cannot ignor the plight we as a country are in right now (before obama was elected).
meshmdz's quote above is the most insightful thing i've read on here. its a shame some people only want to degrade and ridicule the man instead of thinking of way to help support him, his presidency and support this country.
obama winning this election represents everything that is great about this country. the fact that a minority can flourish, work hard and become the leader of the greatest nation ever is an amazing feat and is truely the american dream.

KeithS
11-18-2008, 17:57
Sorry, but I will not rally behind the president-elect, and I do feel as much hatred for him (and the other liberals in control) as I have ever felt....for what they want to do. and, Bush and McCain have not performed as conservatives....I don't know what they think they are.

My dilemma, through the Clinton years and for the next four is based in an oath I took decades ago: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God."

What does one do when they feel that the President is an enemy of the Constitution?

meshmdz
11-18-2008, 18:54
Keith, hatred is a terrible thing. How can you hate an American President that wants to do what is best for the nation? If you dont agree with his stances on a few things, I understans, but to claim hatred for him is over the top IMO.

Lady Glock
11-18-2008, 20:47
Keith, hatred is a terrible thing. How can you hate an American President that wants to do what is best for the nation? If you dont agree with his stances on a few things, I understans, but to claim hatred for him is over the top IMO.Problem is, he doesn't want to do what is best for the nation, he wants to do what is best for him. He is a socialist. Other countries who practice socialist ideals have shown it doesn't work, and now we get to prove it again.

Colorado4Wheel
11-19-2008, 08:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society"

"Egalitarianism (derived from the French word ťgal, meaning equal) is a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights.[1] Generally it applies to being held equal under the law and society at large. In actual practice, one may be considered an egalitarian in most areas listed above, even if not subscribing to equality in every possible area of individual difference."


So when has Barack advocated

state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Don't tell me the "Bail Out". That was a funding not "collective ownership" Even if you want to twist it into Socialism then you can do the same for nearly any social program in America.


And when has Barack stated he wants "egalitarian society". A society where we have the "masses" treated all the same. Same basic income, etc. It's not a "redistribution" argument either. Under Republicans we have the rich paying less taxes percent wise then the average person. For instance the wall street super rich get to pay 10-15% on the 1 Billion (YES A "B") where I get to pay 33% on my income.

The right wing media is twisting things up and you guys are buying it all.

spdski
11-19-2008, 08:07
The right wing media is twisting things up and you guys are buying it all.

But the mainstream media is all socialists! The only honest source of news Rush and similar talk radio. I mean, come on, the big budget MSM has no way of knowing what is actually going on, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).

I want my news fabricated, exaggerated, and put into words that even a second grader can get angry at!

Who cares about the issues if someone has a funny name?

:tongueout:

Colorado4Wheel
11-19-2008, 08:11
And please, please don't try and make the argument that Social Programs are Socialism. It's just not the same thing. Not even close. The Bailouts etc. are attempts at Social programs to prevent a major economic problem. Trust me I understand if you don't agree with these things. Socialism is a very different thing and the Constitution would not allow real Socialism. But it does allow Social Programs under section 8 or the Constitution called "The Enumerated Powers". Thats how we ended up with Social Security and many other federal programs that are supposed to help the people. My argument is not "for" these programs. Just that the constitution and its interpetation over time has supported the right of the Federal goverment to do these things.

Colorado4Wheel
11-19-2008, 08:12
But the mainstream media is all socialists! The only honest source of news Rush and similar talk radio. I mean, come on, the big budget MSM has no way of knowing what is actually going on, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).

If you only want to listen to things that support you and your current thinking then listen to FOX. If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.

, plus they all have higher educations (YUK!!!).

You have got to be kidding me. Oh, lets stay ignorant. Don't learn, that would be bad and not help anyone get ahead. Not help our country succeed. That is just crazy.

spdski
11-19-2008, 08:32
If you only want to listen to things that support you and your current thinking then listen to FOX. If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.



You have got to be kidding me. Oh, lets stay ignorant. Don't learn, that would be bad and not help anyone get ahead. Not help our country succeed. That is just crazy.


Hehehe. I am on your side and I was joking. They need a sarcasm font on here.

Colorado4Wheel
11-19-2008, 09:26
Well, I was a little upset. I had just noticed they deleted the thread about Montana suceeding from the Union. After I posted some good info about the Constitution, Montana's statehood, Amendments, etc. At this point I think I am done with these discussions. If you can't even talk about History and the Constitution then whats the point.

spdski
11-19-2008, 09:28
Well, I was a little upset. I had just noticed they deleted the thread about Montana suceeding from the Union. After I posted some good info about the Constitution, Montana's statehood, Amendments, etc. At this point I think I am done with these discussions. If you can't even talk about History and the Constitution then whats the point.

I had to distance myself for a bit after the election. But it's been getting better. People are turning the crazy down a notch or two. Sorry about the unpleasantness you've had.

meshmdz
11-19-2008, 10:53
barack does want what is best for this nation. if you dont believe so, you are wrong. all american presidents want what hey think is best for this nation... well except for my GW... I mean he hasnt really done anything for anyone of my ilk.

before you bash socialism... think about all the wonderful things we have in this nation that are a form of socialism... a postal service, police forces, ambulances, firemen, teachers, social workers, etc... oh yea and social security.. but yea you dont wanna admit that's just NOT american right???? well hopefully we can have some form of socialism in this nation because government regulation is a must... just look at the past 8 years and what dereg has done for us..

farnhamj
11-20-2008, 00:01
If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.

I'm all up for listening to more than one take on info, but of all the choices out there, to mention CNN is a joke. They have some of the most liberal left-winged BS there is to spew on the public. At least with FOX, some shows look at and analyse both views while CNN, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, try to cram some pretty hefty junk down viewers throats. IMHO

GlockerMike
11-20-2008, 01:51
.... If you want to try and understand why others might believe something different then listen to CNN and others. They have you just were they want you if you don't listen to anything but one source for your information.......

Truer words were never spoken, hats off to you for saying it. And here is the result of watching only CNN for your news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

Take the time to watch it all.

Lady Glock
11-20-2008, 05:53
Truer words were never spoken, hats off to you for saying it. And here is the result of watching only CNN for your news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

Take the time to watch it all.Dang...doesn't speak very well for the American people who would go to the polls not knowing anything about the person they are about to vote into office.

Colorado4Wheel
11-20-2008, 08:30
It's a Republican John Stuart Show. It happens both ways all the time. Means nothing. All it proves is there are plenty of dumb people in America. Don't forget, McCain still had Joe the Plumber (who is not a plumber but a plumbers apprentice at best) on his stage campaigning for him. Still claiming he was going to buy a business and make 250K a year taxable income. He cant even pull a permit. It's amazing that the country as a whole puts up with that crap. Politicians can make a good case for most of america being like sheep. Tickle my ears and hope you get the most votes. And that goes for BOTH parties. I think they truely think we are stupid. And most the time (all you have to do is read this forum) we prove them right.

Edit: By "read this forum" I don't mean the most recent poster. I am referring to some of the truely bizarre stuff being talked about on this forum lately. It seems very few people have the guts to stand up and say anything. It amazing how when we loose how many have reverted to a very bad place. We live in a democracy, with checks and balances. We have had laws that lawmakers passed latter overturned by the courts. It's a process. Not every event is going to make us happy. But that does not mean we start abandoning the very thing that makes this country great when one thing does not go the way we wanted.

ragu1macrider
11-20-2008, 14:53
You support blind Nationalism then? That person didn't like Bush -- he didn't say he didn't like AMERICA. I'm fine with Bush, but I am NOT fine with Obama. Would you support MAO if you were in China during his time? Would you support Castro if you were in Cuba during his time? Do I think Obama is Castro or Mao? Perhaps not, but I think he's foul. I think there are a whole lot of people that are proud of themselves for voting for him. I think they are going to be sorely disappointed. Obama is NOT what America is all about. He is NOT the American way. He's the Socialist Republic way and he is ANTI gun. ANTI GUN is ANTI American. America is about her history, about cowboys, about GUNS, about mavericks! Another Reagan is what we need :patriot:


:cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleader:

ragu1macrider
11-20-2008, 14:58
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

Cheerleaders for Pinki :cheerleader:

And a :therapy: for you my friend.

Bogey
11-22-2008, 21:20
He had a liar like "Joe the Plumber" as a spokesman.



Huh????

Bogey
11-22-2008, 21:22
We throw words like "Socialist" around and pin them to who we don't like. But we give Republicans and those who support our gun cause (not all republicans of course) a free pass when they do the same thing. The reality is we could hurl these things at anyone we wanted in government. ANYONE. It does not prove your cause or make your view valid. It's a hollow argument because all for them all guilty of the same thing to one degree or another. The reality is the world is Grey. There is very little black and white in our world. Other then killing, extremism (religious, political, they are all bad). Fundamentalism is one of the worst things this World is battling right now. We need to be cautious that we as Americans are not just as extreme as the rest of the world. I lived in between America and Europe till I was 16 (not military, born in Texas). I am constantly surprised at the lack of acceptance or even comfort in discussing opposing views. It seems over the last 20 + years we have become even more polarized as a nation. Itís like we all walk around and say in our minds ďIf you donít believe like me I HATE YOU. Then we begin marginalizing people. Itís dangerous. Look what it has done to other nations. Iran for instance was a Persian country taken over by extremist that used HATE as their energy. I have seen what this same process has brought to Europe over the last 20 years. Iran with out the fundamentalism and the hate would be a very different place then it is today.


Your first two sentences lend no credibility to the rest of your post.

Bogey
11-22-2008, 21:25
Don't forget, McCain still had Joe the Plumber (who is not a plumber but a plumbers apprentice at best) on his stage campaigning for him. Still claiming he was going to buy a business and make 250K a year taxable income. He cant even pull a permit.

.

This just shows me you have no idea how the trades work. Therefore, nothing you post will hold no weight with me until you show you can get basic facts straight.

bennwj
11-22-2008, 21:28
The gift that keep on giving.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Ovcdb6csHBE

A friend of mine who voted for this piece of crap called me today to say whats up. I asked him how he's liking his change. You would have thought this guy won the lotto because obama won.

I asked him why he voted for him.

He told me it was time for a change. :faint:

And then my favorite bunch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shmu_-uoKv8&feature=related

They want their taxes (as if they paid any) lowered and "he will give me disability":rofl::rofl::rofl:

bennwj
11-22-2008, 21:30
It's a Republican John Stuart Show. It happens both ways all the time. Means nothing. All it proves is there are plenty of dumb people in America. Don't forget, McCain still had Joe the Plumber (who is not a plumber but a plumbers apprentice at best) on his stage campaigning for him. Still claiming he was going to buy a business and make 250K a year taxable income. He cant even pull a permit. It's amazing that the country as a whole puts up with that crap. Politicians can make a good case for most of america being like sheep. Tickle my ears and hope you get the most votes. And that goes for BOTH parties. I think they truely think we are stupid. And most the time (all you have to do is read this forum) we prove them right.

Edit: By "read this forum" I don't mean the most recent poster. I am referring to some of the truely bizarre stuff being talked about on this forum lately. It seems very few people have the guts to stand up and say anything. It amazing how when we loose how many have reverted to a very bad place. We live in a democracy, with checks and balances. We have had laws that lawmakers passed latter overturned by the courts. It's a process. Not every event is going to make us happy. But that does not mean we start abandoning the very thing that makes this country great when one thing does not go the way we wanted.


Insightful. Coming from somebody who doesnt understand the tax system and wants wealth redistribution.:rofl:

meshmdz
11-22-2008, 22:23
Insightful. Coming from somebody who doesnt understand the tax system and wants wealth redistribution.:rofl:

SGT, you attack CO but yet you posted a link to wiki in another thread we were debating on... Im confused SGT. :tongueout:

bennwj
11-22-2008, 22:48
Hmmm so the vast majority of Americans who voted for Obama "have no clue"??? and Obama is a piece of crap? That really speaks volumes of your character... talking this vile rhetoric about an American President.

And you haven't said anything disparaging about President Bush.

bennwj
11-22-2008, 22:50
SGT, you attack CO but yet you posted a link to wiki in another thread we were debating on... Im confused SGT. :tongueout:

If those liberal professors that filled your head so full of **** would have taught you to read, you would notice that I included the wiki link so you could go someplace familiar to begin your research.

Dumbass

and it's "Sergeant Major" by the way.........

meshmdz
11-22-2008, 23:14
I appreciate your kindness SGM, but we need not call names.

purpledragonlily
11-23-2008, 00:20
McCain = more Bush policies. He voted with the Bush agenda 94% of the time. Change??? Give me a break.

And Obama/Biden voted Dem 96% of the time, so where's the change there? Please.

kimberguy2004
11-23-2008, 08:17
And Obama/Biden voted Dem 96% of the time, so where's the change there? Please.

Obama loads his cabinet up with ex-Clintonista. That's change? Right.. The only change we are going to see is the amount of money that goes from our paycheck to the parasites that havn't taken the personal responsibility to make themselves worth more than $8/hr at Taco Bell and are perfectly content to live their lives with their hand out waiting for you to put something in it.

I'm a small business owner and I'm fortunate to be a sole proprietor/employee. If I were faced with either scaling down or bankruptcy, I would be scouring the parking lot for Osama bumper stickers and those morons would be the first to go. If you are one of the many who got taken in by a few slick hollywood production, tele-prompted speeches about hope and change, I really pity you for not having any more intelligence than that. Hussein won because he depended on people who don't have a clue about economics and are simply waiting for the handouts to begin. Obama will be the worst thing to hit our political scene since Jimmy Carter. Sorry folks.. Hussein isn't going to pay your rent, he's not going to keep you in your house, he won't give you cheap gas, and he's not going to pay your credit card off. You're still going to have to get off of your collective asses and do something for yourself..Too bad you weren't a little pickier about what you wished for..

meshmdz
11-23-2008, 12:35
And Obama/Biden voted Dem 96% of the time, so where's the change there? Please.

Well, since the Democratic vote was usually DIFFERENT from the Republican way, it IS total change from the way things have been.

McCain voted with Bush. the American people want CHANGE from the way things have been, so they OVERWHELMINGLY voted for Obama and a NEW direction. I cant believe I even had to type this out for you... Figured your intellectual level was high enough to understand that... apparently not.. :upeyes:

17z
11-23-2008, 13:03
Kimberguy2004,well,I hope you are not talking about peoples who are disabled because of serious health problems like me. I lost my business in 97 when I had a major heart attack and kidney shut down. I was on dailysis for a little over 9 yrs and finally got a kidney transplant. I want to goback to work but,doc says to me I am done working. Especially in the winter when the flu season hits. By the way kimber2004,I was a gunsmith for close to 35 yrs and I liked that job and business I had . I wish I could go back to it. Soplease I know the peoples out there who are on the welfare roles and getting a check each month. Me,I get a small Social Security disability check each month and it is hard to make ends meet. Very small at that. I was used to making over $50,000.00 per year after everything was deducted and paid for. Now,I barely make over $10,000 per year. Now,comprhend on that kimberguy. 17z

meshmdz
11-23-2008, 15:05
Kimberguy2004,well,I hope you are not talking about peoples who are disabled because of serious health problems like me. I lost my business in 97 when I had a major heart attack and kidney shut down. I was on dailysis for a little over 9 yrs and finally got a kidney transplant. I want to goback to work but,doc says to me I am done working. Especially in the winter when the flu season hits. By the way kimber2004,I was a gunsmith for close to 35 yrs and I liked that job and business I had . I wish I could go back to it. Soplease I know the peoples out there who are on the welfare roles and getting a check each month. Me,I get a small Social Security disability check each month and it is hard to make ends meet. Very small at that. I was used to making over $50,000.00 per year after everything was deducted and paid for. Now,I barely make over $10,000 per year. Now,comprhend on that kimberguy. 17z

Welfare is abused, yes... However, the system DOES HELP many people. So it does NOT need to be done away with.. Its needs reform, yes, but not total disappearance.

purpledragonlily
11-23-2008, 16:58
Well, since the Democratic vote was usually DIFFERENT from the Republican way, it IS total change from the way things have been.

McCain voted with Bush. the American people want CHANGE from the way things have been, so they OVERWHELMINGLY voted for Obama and a NEW direction. I cant believe I even had to type this out for you... Figured your intellectual level was high enough to understand that... apparently not.. :upeyes:

52% of the people voted for Obama- 48% DID NOT, that is not overwhelming, that is just enough. The Dem congress has been in control for 2 years with the worst approval rating in history- way lower than Bush. So no, voting Dem is no "change", as Obama has only been in the Senate for a short time, so has been with the Dems while they have been the majority. Is your intellectual level able to follow that? Doubt it since you voted for him. :faint:

bennwj
11-23-2008, 18:42
52% of the people voted for Obama- 48% DID NOT, that is not overwhelming, that is just enough. The Dem congress has been in control for 2 years with the worst approval rating in history- way lower than Bush. So no, voting Dem is no "change", as Obama has only been in the Senate for a short time, so has been with the Dems while they have been the majority. Is your intellectual level able to follow that? Doubt it since you voted for him. :faint:

I think it was funny in 200 and 2004 when President Bush won both of those elections with 51% of the vote the media said the country was "divided". Obama wins with 52% this year and the country is "united".

Although congress had a horrible approval rating, ask the average Joe what he thought about his Senator or representative. His reply would likely be, "My guy is great...the other 534 are screwed up" :rofl:

meshmdz
11-23-2008, 18:48
Look at the number of people who turned out to vote. Far more voted for Obama than did bush or kerry.

The Dems cant get **** done because Bush and his administration hasnt worked with them, by blocking legislation they have put up.

bennwj
11-23-2008, 18:51
Welfare is abused, yes... However, the system DOES HELP many people. So it does NOT need to be done away with.. Its needs reform, yes, but not total disappearance.

Let me give you a perfect example of how the welfare system is broken and in need of overhaul.

My niece has made every bad decision in life that is possible. Dropped out of school, drugs, sex ...you name it.

She had her first child (no father's name on the birth certificate) about two years ago. She had no job, no means of support other than her mom and was on every welfare program New York state and the federal government had.

When I saw her the baby was about 9 months old. She made the retarded statement that she, "wanted another one'. I told her that before she made taxpayers pay for another one, she might want to get a job and get her life in order. She said it was her "right" to have as many as she wanted.

Shortly after that we found out that she was pregnant again. No father on the birth certificate again.

Taxpayers are paying her to have babies. That is wrong. All payments to her should be cut off NOW.

Now, somebody who has worked and is disabled is a different story. If they have no way to provide for themselves then we must, as a people help out.

The system that we currently have traps people in the system.

My niece gets Section 8 housing and only has to pay $50 per month towards her utilities. Food stamps and a welfare check. She is 19 years old and more than capable of working.

Unfortunately she is not the exception. She is the rule when it comes to current welfare recipients.

bennwj
11-23-2008, 18:53
Look at the number of people who turned out to vote. Far more voted for Obama than did bush or kerry.

The Dems cant get **** done because Bush and his administration hasnt worked with them, by blocking legislation they have put up.

But what little legislation they "put up" (proposed is the word you were looking for), has been of the liberal variety and as the President he has not only a right, but a responsibility to support his convictions.

Would you rather have him sign a bill into law against his convictions? It's called character.

meshmdz
11-23-2008, 19:01
Let me give you a perfect example of how the welfare system is broken and in need of overhaul.

My niece has made every bad decision in life that is possible. Dropped out of school, drugs, sex ...you name it.

She had her first child (no father's name on the birth certificate) about two years ago. She had no job, no means of support other than her mom and was on every welfare program New York state and the federal government had.

When I saw her the baby was about 9 months old. She made the retarded statement that she, "wanted another one'. I told her that before she made taxpayers pay for another one, she might want to get a job and get her life in order. She said it was her "right" to have as many as she wanted.

Shortly after that we found out that she was pregnant again. No father on the birth certificate again.

Taxpayers are paying her to have babies. That is wrong. All payments to her should be cut off NOW.

Now, somebody who has worked and is disabled is a different story. If they have no way to provide for themselves then we must, as a people help out.

The system that we currently have traps people in the system.

My niece gets Section 8 housing and only has to pay $50 per month towards her utilities. Food stamps and a welfare check. She is 19 years old and more than capable of working.

Unfortunately she is not the exception. She is the rule when it comes to current welfare recipients.

I agree SGM. People like that are mooching off the system. However, I dont think you can say that because certain people do this that you can throw away the entire system.

spdski
11-23-2008, 19:17
I think it was funny in 200 and 2004 when President Bush won both of those elections with 51% of the vote the media said the country was "divided". Obama wins with 52% this year and the country is "united".


Just to set the record straight. In 2000, Bush got about 49% of the popular vote. In 2004, he got about 51%. This year Obama got 53.25%

None of these show a united country.

Then again, when Reagan won his first term he only got about 51%...

meshmdz
11-23-2008, 19:19
Just to set the record straight. In 2000, Bush got about 49% of the popular vote. In 2004, he got about 51%. This year Obama got 53.25%

None of these show a united country.

Then again, when Reagan won his first term he only got about 51%...

I am glad you mentioned this.. I was about to post this about Reagan's win actually.

bennwj
12-01-2008, 21:06
One of the worst thing we have going on in America right now is the divisiveness as displayed in this thread and lack of understanding about how there can be another view besides your own. Obama did not get elected because he spouted off "Change" a bunch. To be honest, McCain lost the election because he had a poorly delivered message, lost his way during his campaign and failed to connect with the American people. He had a liar like "Joe the Plumber" as a spokesman. I mean come on, thatís just not going to work. Gun control is not the only issue in America and people failure to understand the other side of an argument just shows them to be narrow minded. Narrow minded people are not going to be able to effectively defend their own rights because they can not debate in an effective manner. We need to learn that not everyone believes like us and that does not make them stupid. Misinformed, perhaps, but not stupid. In many ways, we as gun owners are our own worst enemies because we cannot put ourselves in others shoes long enough to understand them so that we can effectively defend ourselves with out sounding angry or stupid ourselves.

Let me get this straight. McCain lost because he had a "Liar like Joe the plumber".

So, did Obama win because he had a "Terrorist like Bill Ayers"?

I would actually say that the people who voted for Obama are the narrow minded ones. All we heard over and over was "change". No real mention of change except to tax the **** out of people who actually work for a living. This who work for a living mistakenly believed that they would not get the tax increase ........ "they" were going to get a tax break.

What else did Barry say? Oh yes. We are going to end the war in Iraq. That is typical liberal bull****. Snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Unfortunately Obama is our President. I wish him well, because his policies that he implements into law with an extremely liberal congress could cause real harm to our nation.

Colorado4Wheel
12-02-2008, 14:39
Did Ayers campaign for Obama? Get real. McCain sold his soul to the Republican right and then tried to make it work with tactics like "Joe the Plumber" who actually campaigned for him. McCain f-d up. Simple as that. He was not the same McCain as we had a year ago. It was a uphill battle with the War and Bush being so unpopular but if you look at the campaigns from a little distance McCain had more mistakes then Obama. I know thats hard to hear but from the people who actually make up the deciding votes its true (assuming the base is going to vote as the base ussually votes) McCain was afraid to stray to far from the "right" for fear of loosing the "base". Obama was able to grab more of the middle ground with out loosing his base.

bennwj
12-02-2008, 18:01
Did Ayers campaign for Obama? Get real. McCain sold his soul to the Republican right and then tried to make it work with tactics like "Joe the Plumber" who actually campaigned for him. McCain f-d up. Simple as that. He was not the same McCain as we had a year ago. It was a uphill battle with the War and Bush being so unpopular but if you look at the campaigns from a little distance McCain had more mistakes then Obama. I know thats hard to hear but from the people who actually make up the deciding votes its true (assuming the base is going to vote as the base ussually votes) McCain was afraid to stray to far from the "right" for fear of loosing the "base". Obama was able to grab more of the middle ground with out loosing his base.

Dude. Put the kool-aid down and throw the Democrat talking points away. McCain is not a conservative (i.e. on the "Right"). He campaigned as a "maverick" and kept saying how he fought the Republican party during his entire career in the Senate. Conservatives have called him a R.I.N.O. (Republican In Name Only) for years.

He lost because he FAILED to run as a conservative. That was one of McCain's mistakes. He never had the base to begin with so he didn't lose it....he had to try to win it.

Obama did a good job of playing class warfare and making people think that he (and bigger government) is the answer. Government is not the solution to the problem, it IS the problem.

If Barry Obama does the things he said he was going to do on the campaign trail, you will see a conservative in the white house in 4 years.

Colorado4Wheel
12-02-2008, 19:44
Cough, cough,b.s., cough.

Very few undecided saw him as you describe. Sure the "right" does but thats not who he lost his votes too. Sure a lot of the base did not like him but I promise you they still voted for him. What else is they going to do vote for Obama in protest. The biggest problem was not loosing those votes. It was they did not come out and work for him. He had a poor support system as a result.

Edit: As far as Obama and what he did to win, I won't argue. McCain did much the same thing, he just looked far more ackward doing it. Kinda my point. McCain floundered while (for the most part) Obama looked poised. 3 years from now you will be hearing all the Republican pundants saying basically what I am saying now. The party is floundering as far as a clear message. When/if Obama fails then that will give the Republicans something to run on. Just like Bush and his unpopularity gave Obama what he needed to get votes.

bennwj
12-02-2008, 20:19
Cough, cough,b.s., cough.

Very few undecided saw him as you describe. Sure the "right" does but thats not who he lost his votes too. Sure a lot of the base did not like him but I promise you they still voted for him. What else is they going to do vote for Obama in protest. The biggest problem was not loosing those votes. It was they did not come out and work for him. He had a poor support system as a result.

Edit: As far as Obama and what he did to win, I won't argue. McCain did much the same thing, he just looked far more ackward doing it. Kinda my point. McCain floundered while (for the most part) Obama looked poised. 3 years from now you will be hearing all the Republican pundants saying basically what I am saying now. The party is floundering as far as a clear message. When/if Obama fails then that will give the Republicans something to run on. Just like Bush and his unpopularity gave Obama what he needed to get votes.

Two things:

1. I agree with you about the republican base not getting behind McCain. You are wrong about Republicans staying home however. It did happen. I know a few people who were so disgusted with McCains lack of conservatism, they thought that four years of a uber-liberal would do the Conservative movement some good. How many stayed home is up to guesswork, but many did.

2. I again agree that the Republican party is searching for a message. All you heard on the news was President Bush's poor approval ratings. You heard little or nothing about congressional approval ratings that were TWICE as low as the Presidents. If Republicans turn back to a conservative message/platform they will win and win big. It works every time it is tried. In this election cycle it seemed that every republican running from office was running away from President Bush's policies. Never mind that the CONGRESS has the power to approve a budget. Never mind that they were in power in the Congress for the last 4 years. The Media and the Democrat party were extremely effective in insulating the public from understanding how money is allocated and spent by the government.

I have a good friend who is liberal. He voted for Obama because he believes in all his socialist crap. I do not have a problem with that. I have a problem with the uneducated voter who makes a decision on emotion and sound bites.

Obama was a far better speaker than McCain. Does that make him right? Do his associations with domestic terrorists NOT matter? Bill Ayers wrote a forward in a book that praised Bobby Kennedy's assassin. Bill Ayers went from being a "guy in the neighborhood" to "a close friend". That doesn't matter?

"Growing the economy from the bottom up" makes sense? How many people on "the bottom" have the ability to create jobs and invest in the economy? How are they going to create wealth? Spending the welfare the government is going to give them (disguised as tax rebates) is NOT going to stimulate the economy.

You and I have argued his tax plan and I refuse to beat that dead horse, but any tax increases on business WILL be passed on to the consumer.

What about direct (without preconditions) negotiations with North Korea, Iran and others? Why give them legitimacy?

His policies are crap and I hope he does not implement them. We will be screwed.

Colorado4Wheel
12-02-2008, 21:38
Wow, we agree.

I did not meet a single person who did not vote because of McCain. I found people driven to the polls because of how much they disliked Obama. Not saying what you said didn't happen. I am sure it did. But it worked both ways. It's going to be interesting. I hope it doesn't suck. I am trying to remain upbeat but it's hard.

Lady Glock
12-03-2008, 09:52
Obama was a far better speaker than McCain.
Yeah, he sure could read that teleprompter! :rofl:

But when he had to speak off the cuff, he couldn't form a coherent thought without uh, ah, um, I think, um, um, uh!

Colorado4Wheel
12-03-2008, 13:31
Yeah, he sure could read that teleprompter! :rofl:

But when he had to speak off the cuff, he couldn't form a coherent thought without uh, ah, um, I think, um, um, uh!


To be fair the "town hall format" did not favor either canidate. McCain thought he would make Obama look bad in that format and it was just not the case.

bennwj
12-03-2008, 15:31
To be fair the "town hall format" did not favor either canidate. McCain thought he would make Obama look bad in that format and it was just not the case.

Actually McCain did extremely well in the town hall format. He is not a teleprompter kind of guy. He does pretty well speaking off the cuff. I don't think that Obama ever looked bad, but he did not look as polished when the audience was asking the questions.

Obama NEVER went of his socialist message. If you think about it he had McCain on defense from day one and was able to get his message across better.

bennwj
12-03-2008, 15:32
Yeah, he sure could read that teleprompter! :rofl:

But when he had to speak off the cuff, he couldn't form a coherent thought without uh, ah, um, I think, um, um, uh!

You got that right.

Colorado4Wheel
12-03-2008, 15:50
McCain did OK. I think style wise it was a draw most the time. McCain had a habit of looking mad and like he was pacing out of frurstration. Obama tended to look detached and not very animated.

meshmdz
12-16-2008, 22:16
Dude. Put the kool-aid down and throw the Democrat talking points away. McCain is not a conservative (i.e. on the "Right"). He campaigned as a "maverick" and kept saying how he fought the Republican party during his entire career in the Senate. Conservatives have called him a R.I.N.O. (Republican In Name Only) for years.

He lost because he FAILED to run as a conservative. That was one of McCain's mistakes. He never had the base to begin with so he didn't lose it....he had to try to win it.

Obama did a good job of playing class warfare and making people think that he (and bigger government) is the answer. Government is not the solution to the problem, it IS the problem.

If Barry Obama does the things he said he was going to do on the campaign trail, you will see a conservative in the white house in 4 years.



the SGM is correct here on a few points. McCain is NOT a conservative. Never has been. This is why many Republicans were hesitant to support him as they would have had Huck got the nod. I respect him but he was a lameduck nomination in a race that no Republican could have won IMO. Obama won because he ran the perfect campaign. Where did he mess up? You cant name a single instance. Because he didnt. He ran the best campaign in history, in many ways. Given, he had a pretty good shot from the get-go because so many people are sick and tired of a ****ty economy and the way the Republicans allowed this nation to go down the drain. The Democratic Congress has failed the American people in many ways as well , but many reasons they have failed is because they have failed to get initiatives across the isle because the White House has been repeatedly hesitant to work with anything DEMOCRATIC. If Obama can get things going in the right direction, he will win re-election easily I am betting. Anyone who thinks that he can fix this mess overnight or in 4 years is a total moron.