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carolinajohn63
12-09-2008, 09:25
Are the ABC stores in North Carolina considered a "State" facility that prohibits CHL?

Thanks,

John

MaximaDrvr
12-09-2008, 09:43
unless posted, they are fair game.

Thx-1138
12-09-2008, 13:31
Tough to answer definitively.

14‑269.4. Weapons on State property and in courthouses. deals with specific prohibited state buildings and grounds.

But, 14‑415.11. Permit to carry concealed handgun; scope of permit., sub-paragraph (c), prohibits concealed carry in buildings or offices of the State or Federal government. Which would mean you could theoretically open-carry there.


ABC Stores are run by the local board, not by the state commission. But... to further confuse the issue, 18B‑101. Definitions., paragraph (8), defines a "Local Board" as an independent local political subdivision of the State.

So, the question becomes... is an ABC Store an office of the local commission? Does it qualify as an office of the State government?

If so, you couldn't conceal carry. But, I think you could open carry.


Personally, I don't want to be the test case to find out the hard way.

carolinajohn63
12-09-2008, 14:51
That's what makes it so hard here in Carolina. The laws are so abiguious that it as though they can get you smacked one way or another.

carolinajohn63
12-09-2008, 15:21
In the same light... I am assuming I cannot carry in a State park here like Fort Fisher State Park, but I am permitted to carry in the city owned parks???

Thanks...

kirgi08
12-09-2008, 15:29
All the ABC stores around here are posted.'08.

carolinajohn63
12-09-2008, 15:32
All the ABC stores around here are posted.'08.

The local ABC's here are not posted.....

LAURAPDG26
12-09-2008, 15:55
In the same light... I am assuming I cannot carry in a State park here like Fort Fisher State Park, but I am permitted to carry in the city owned parks???

Thanks...

Now you have me confused..I am fairly certain that we can not carry in any parks, city, state or national (although the national rule is changing right now).

If anyone knows the definite answer to this question, please post it.

carolinajohn63
12-09-2008, 16:19
Now you have me confused..I am fairly certain that we can not carry in any parks, city, state or national (although the national rule is changing right now).

If anyone knows the definite answer to this question, please post it.

Public parks (city owned) are not listed in the "NO CARRY" zones. State parks are specifically mentioned. From what I can tell, the city can post no carry signs, but unless posted, one may carry concealed.

bradleybear
12-10-2008, 13:02
Concord ABC is posted

Bogey
12-10-2008, 20:17
You may not carry in ABC stores.

It is a State owned/run entity.

kirgi08
12-10-2008, 20:53
Yep.'08.

carolinajohn63
12-11-2008, 08:27
You may not carry in ABC stores.

It is a State owned/run entity.


It is not exactly a State Owned facility.....
From their site:
"North Carolina is one of 19 control states and a member of the National Alcohol Beverage Control Association (http://www.nabca.org/) . As an agency under the Department of Commerce, it is our overall objective to provide uniform control over the sale, purchase, transportation, manufacture, consumption and possession of alcoholic beverages in the state."

Thx-1138
12-11-2008, 09:40
You may not carry in ABC stores.

It is a State owned/run entity.

But is a store front an office?

It's relatively murky waters, and I don't want to be the test case.

kirgi08
12-11-2008, 13:14
That's why I won't carry at all in an ABC store,not even a knife.We have ALE agents that are nazis' and I'd rather not give them a shot at me.'08.

LAURAPDG26
12-11-2008, 13:29
We seem to have so many restrictions on when a law abiding carrier must remove their firearm from their person and leave it in the car. Why can't the law makers see the fact that these restrictions actually leave a firearm where either a non-law abiding citizen or someone who is untrained in the use of a firearm can steal it either inadvertantly or not. The more times we leave them in our cars whether it be restaurants or whatever, the higher the probability that it may happen. If I could choose, I would rather have more intensive requisite training and less restrictions that the state required minimums and all this bs to deal with.

kirgi08
12-11-2008, 13:34
Logic and common sense have nothing at all in common with politicians.20 yrs ago you could walk inta the SO while wearing your pistol/open carry.I don't think NC had a CCW law back then.'08.

Thx-1138
12-11-2008, 14:18
That's why I won't carry at all in an ABC store,not even a knife.We have ALE agents that are nazis' and I'd rather not give them a shot at me.'08.

When I can't carry a firearm, I always keep a small can of OC spray, and an ordinary pocket knife carried in a closed position. By "ordinary pocket knife", I mean a small knife, designed for carrying in a pocket or purse, that has its cutting edge and point entirely enclosed by its handle, and that may not be opened by a throwing, explosive, or spring action.

http://spiderco.com/pix/products/large/C10GRE_L.jpg
A Spyderco Endura (http://spiderco.com/catalog/closeup.php?product=284) meets that description, right? :whistling:

kirgi08
12-11-2008, 14:24
Emerson Commander w/wave.'08.

civilwarguns
12-11-2008, 16:58
All North Carolina ABC stores are State Owned. You can not carrythere.

carolinajohn63
12-12-2008, 15:20
All North Carolina ABC stores are State Owned. You can not carrythere.

In contrast to your interpretation, this is what I received back from the Police Chief's office in Wilmington:

"Chief Evangelous asked that I answer the question you raised concerning the taking of weapons (firearms) into a County owned or operated ABC store. It is my understanding that New Hanover County has enacted an ordinance, Section 38-31, which prohibits the taking of weapons into County buildings if a sign is posted to that effect. Therefore, if the County post the appropriate sign which prohibits the taking of weapons onto the premises of a County ABC store then it is illegal to do so.

If you need additional information, I suggest that you contact the New Hanover County Attorney's Office at 798-7153."

So I am not quite sure where people get the "State Owned" definition.

Apparently, if it isn't posted, you may carry. Am I reading this wrong??

kirgi08
12-12-2008, 16:14
I'd just prefer not ta take the risk.I won't carry anywhere there is a "gray" area in the laws.'08.

MaximaDrvr
12-12-2008, 20:27
If it isn't posted then it is OK.

Just like people saying banks are federal buildings IMO.

kirgi08
12-12-2008, 21:20
If it isn't posted then it is OK.

Just like people saying banks are federal buildings IMO.


Good luck with that.'08.

lbritt
12-13-2008, 15:38
This topic came up today at a local match.
There are several things that need to be cleared up. This information is based on the last fifteen years of my life working in our ABC system.

First, North Carolina does not own a single ABC Store. Every retail ABC Store is independently owned by the local ABC Board in that jurisdiction. For instance, there are 21 ABC Stores in Wake County. Each of those stores are owned by the Wake County Board of Alcohol Control. The ABC Board(s) are overseen by a three to five member board. Those board members are appointed by the county commissioners or town counselmen which ever be the case.

Each governing board sets in own policy as to whether allow CCW or not. This policy is not set by the state, the county, or the local police chief..... only by the governing ABC Board.

So, there is no blanket answer to the original question. You must check with the local ABC Board in your area. For contact information you can look them up at www.ncabc.com (http://www.ncabc.com) Obviously, if the site is posted "No CCW" then there's your answer. Wake County ABC Stores are not posted and the Board members specifically voted to allow lawful CCW.

JohnHoliday
12-13-2008, 22:35
edited

kirgi08
12-13-2008, 23:36
What about lawful "open carry".'08.

southernreign
12-14-2008, 19:33
What about lawful "open carry".'08.

I just took the CCW class a few weeks back, they specifically stated "DO NOT bring you concealed firearm into an ABC store; you'll end up in jail!"

You can NOT carry OPEN or CCW in any NC ABC store.
These are 'state controlled' and considered Government facility.
I personally would leave the gun in the car in a secured lock box.
Not worth the risk.

kirgi08
12-14-2008, 21:12
Read post 25.That's what my querry is about.'08.

NC Bullseye
12-14-2008, 22:38
I just took the CCW class a few weeks back, they specifically stated "DO NOT bring you concealed firearm into an ABC store; you'll end up in jail!"

You can NOT carry OPEN or CCW in any NC ABC store.
These are 'state controlled' and considered Government facility.
I personally would leave the gun in the car in a secured lock box.
Not worth the risk.

Even instructors can be wrong. I know this for a fact.

I am checking on the ABC store question but I tend to take lbritts's post as being somewhat authoritative on the subject due to the work history. Doesn't mean I won't continue to look into it though.

I will say that the CHP instructor class at the NCJA didn't mention specifically the ABC stores.

As I ALWAYS teach in my classes, "When in doubt, DON'T!"

lbritt
12-14-2008, 23:27
I just took the CCW class a few weeks back, they specifically stated "DO NOT bring you concealed firearm into an ABC store; you'll end up in jail!"

You can NOT carry OPEN or CCW in any NC ABC store.
These are 'state controlled'


I'm not going to argue this point. Do your own verification. Your local ABC Board may have a policy restricting CCW. If so, they will have the property posted. There are ABC Boards in North Carolina that do allow CCW. This is not a theory, a dream, or wishful thinking..... it is fact. The quoted comment above is absolutely false.

As I have stated previously, the state does not own, manage, or operate any ABC Stores in North Carolina. Each store is owned and operated by a local ABC Board. The local board is a political subdivision of the state that operates as a separate entity overseen by appointed board members. That may be a county board or a city board. North Carolina is different than many other states. Virginia is a state controlled ABC system. When the 18th amendment was repealed in the 1930's most States passed a state-wide referendum regarding the sale of spirits. North Carolina held local referendums. This is why we have some wet counties and some dry counties.

But please, don't take my word for it, do your own research in your community and see what your local board's policy is on CCW. If you are still struggling with the fact that our ABC Stores are not ran by the state then just ask your friendly ABC clerk the next time you visit a store. Be sure to ask them if they receive any pay or benefits from the State of N.C.

southernreign
12-14-2008, 23:28
Even instructors can be wrong. I know this for a fact.

I am checking on the ABC store question but I tend to take lbritts's post as being somewhat authoritative on the subject due to the work history. Doesn't mean I won't continue to look into it though.

I will say that the CHP instructor class at the NCJA didn't mention specifically the ABC stores.

As I ALWAYS teach in my classes, "When in doubt, DON'T!"


I am new at this, I look forward to hearing what your research concludes.

JohnHoliday
12-14-2008, 23:32
I'm going to continue to carry in them if they aren't posted. I think its legal, and no research/laws shows otherwise. Concealed means Concealed, I do not think you will get arrested for carrying into one.

kirgi08
12-14-2008, 23:47
That assumption may catch you a felony.Not me folks.'08.

JohnHoliday
12-14-2008, 23:51
That assumption may catch you a felony.Not me folks.'08.

I feel like the your profile quote somewhat mismatches your statement :cool:

But I do agree, its not smart to make assumptions, I just really believe its not illegal, and the person who taught my concealed class said it was ok if they where not posted.

I can understand not wanting to risk it though, its better to be safe then sorry.

kirgi08
12-15-2008, 00:01
My "judged by" statement.'08.

NC Bullseye
12-15-2008, 00:38
Just FYI here's the link for all of the ABC boards in NC.

http://www.ncabc.com/abc_boards/board_list.aspx

Here is the state map to find your local ABC board

http://www.ncabc.com/abc_boards/default.aspx?r=west

kirgi08
12-15-2008, 00:55
I feel like the your profile quote somewhat mismatches your statement :cool:

But I do agree, its not smart to make assumptions, I just really believe its not illegal, and the person who taught my concealed class said it was ok if they where not posted.

I can understand not wanting to risk it though, its better to be safe then sorry.

My sig has nothing ta do with ccw in the liquor store.It's more relevant to a life/death event.'08.

JohnHoliday
12-15-2008, 01:25
My sig has nothing ta do with ccw in the liquor store.It's more relevant to a life/death event.'08.

haha, I know, but I think it can be applied there.

edit: what I mean is, the only reason anyone would ever know that I'm carrying in the ABC store, was if I had to draw/use my gun. At that point, I would much rather be judged for carrying, then carried by 6.

That said, If I thought it was illegal to carry in an ABC store, I would stop immediately.

carolinajohn63
12-15-2008, 22:24
That assumption may catch you a felony.Not me folks.'08.

Your choice. I am with the "if it is not posted, carry crowd!"
My rights are guaranteed by the constitution. Until Obama changes it!

kirgi08
12-15-2008, 23:16
Your choice. I am with the "if it is not posted, carry crowd!"
My rights are guaranteed by the constitution. Until Obama changes it!


Sorry about this.The Constitution has been Null and Void in this country for decades.Are you willing ta risk your rights in a moment/s of ego? Any type of law that is on the books VIOLATES the 2A.This does not mean that you will not get a fair trail and conviction.It means the state has more money than you,and given reason/your arrogance,they will fry you and anyone else they see fit ta make a/an example of.With respects.'08.

lbritt
12-16-2008, 17:06
Exactly what law is it that makes you believe it is illegal to CCW in all ABC Stores regardless of the policies adopted by the governing board?

Bogey
12-16-2008, 23:11
Guys,

I asked this question of lbritt last Saturday as was stated, at a local match. The reason I asked him personally is because I know his position with the ABC Board in Wake County, NC, and that there had been a question raised recently about carrying in ABC Stores. I knew he would steer me in the proper direction.

I came here to post that I made a false statement earlier in this thread concerning the State owning the ABC stores based on his first hand information.

lbritt knows me well enough to have come in here without me having mentioned where this subject was brought to light. Thanks to him, we have links (to do our own research) and unequivocal information regarding the subject. I now know I can and will carry in our County ABC stores.

Southernreign, you might send your instructor the links provided here so he may update his class.


Thanks lbritt!!!!!

NC Bullseye
12-17-2008, 01:49
Once again, thanks to lbritt.

After talking to ABC board members, I was assured that the ABC stores are neither state owned nor the employees state employees. So, long story short, no sign, fair game. If your stores are posted,

I suggest you contact the chairperson of your local board and discuss it with them. Do it in a respectable way and don't get hostile, just state the fact that the only people that the no firearms signs affect are the legal ones and these are the people that DON'T cause problems. The people that are going to cause problems in an ABC store don't care if there is a no firearms sign or not.

Good luck and happy carrying.

carolinajohn63
12-17-2008, 15:10
That assumption may catch you a felony.Not me folks.'08.

To each his/her own. As for me and my house, we will carry unless the law clearly restricts me from doing so.

This state just needs to drop all the namby/pamby anti-gun laws.

carolinajohn63
12-17-2008, 15:13
Sorry about this.The Constitution has been Null and Void in this country for decades.Are you willing ta risk your rights in a moment/s of ego? Any type of law that is on the books VIOLATES the 2A.This does not mean that you will not get a fair trail and conviction.It means the state has more money than you,and given reason/your arrogance,they will fry you and anyone else they see fit ta make a/an example of.With respects.'08.

Arrogance? No, it is not arrogance. I just refuse to to become one of the sheepish people of this United States who will sit their and state they support the right to carry, yet refuse to stand up for what is right.

If you choose to be defenseless, that is your right. But do not confuse my willingness to stand up for what is right with arrogance.

Yet your signature line states you would rather be judged by 12 thatn carried by six? Kind of hypocritical no??

lbritt
12-17-2008, 19:21
I just refuse to to become one of the sheepish people of this United States who will sit their and state they support the right to carry, yet refuse to stand up for what is right.

If you choose to be defenseless, that is your right. But do not confuse my willingness to stand up for what is right with arrogance.

Excellent mindset !!!!!!!!!


Nice shoot'n with you again Bogey. That was a fun squad. On the way home Cody said he wanted his hair cut like yours.:cool:

Bogey
12-17-2008, 19:29
Excellent mindset !!!!!!!!!


Nice shoot'n with you again Bogey. That was a fun squad. On the way home Cody said he wanted his hair cut like yours.:cool:


Tell him to be careful what he wishes for.:rofl:

Tell Cody I was impressed with how he's shooting! :cool:

Disregarded9-side
12-18-2008, 14:50
The law says you can't carry in "State run properties"; or something to the affect. At the same time, I can't see why you shouldn't be--it's not serving. I'll try to find the G.S. later tonight. I think it's written in with ABC store regulations...remember they must follow State law, not just local. All the ones here that I've been to are 'posted'.

It's definitely an interesting issue, the way it's written. Like THX I certainly don't want to be the test subject for the suit.

NC Bullseye
12-18-2008, 15:11
The law says you can't carry in "State run properties"; or something to the affect. At the same time, I can't see why you shouldn't be--it's not serving. I'll try to find the G.S. later tonight. I think it's written in with ABC store regulations...remember they must follow State law, not just local. All the ones here that I've been to are 'posted'.

It's definitely an interesting issue, the way it's written. Like THX I certainly don't want to be the test subject for the suit.

As stated above, ABC stores are not state run. They are not state property and the employees are not state employees. They are owned and operated by a local board that follows the rules of the state. It's just like the local garage that does state auto inspections, they follow state guidelines and charge what the state tells them too but are privately owned. So, as long as they are not posted as a no carry location you're good to go.

Disregarded9-side
12-18-2008, 21:56
As stated above, ABC stores are not state run. They are not state property and the employees are not state employees. They are owned and operated by a local board that follows the rules of the state. It's just like the local garage that does state auto inspections, they follow state guidelines and charge what the state tells them too but are privately owned. So, as long as they are not posted as a no carry location you're good to go.

You're exactly right, I was wrong to call and assume them State employees. But just like the State Inspection stickers they still drink the NC Dem skeet and must follow their rules...so this leads me to believe that they have to follow their rules, but whatever. Good information.

I didn't realize they were private though, I thought they were still through the county and stuff...hence all the tax revenue posted on the brown bags, etc. I know there are county ABC boards. Idk what the empolyees go through.

southernreign
12-19-2008, 10:15
You're exactly right, I was wrong to call and assume them State employees. But just like the State Inspection stickers they still drink the NC Dem skeet and must follow their rules...so this leads me to believe that they have to follow their rules, but whatever. Good information.

I didn't realize they were private though, I thought they were still through the county and stuff...hence all the tax revenue posted on the brown bags, etc. I know there are county ABC boards. Idk what the empolyees go through.

'State run' or 'state controlled'... either way, I sure would not want to have to pay to defend myself on that one.

glocksterr
12-22-2008, 19:42
Wake County ABC Stores are not posted and the Board members specifically voted to allow lawful CCW.

maybe they need to check again. the store by my house is posted.


:dunno:

lbritt
12-22-2008, 22:10
Which store are you referring to? If that's the case, the removal of the sign was an oversight..... and I can fix that.

glocksterr
12-23-2008, 06:25
Which store are you referring to? If that's the case, the removal of the sign was an oversight..... and I can fix that.


my bad!

it seems the store is in Johnston County even though it has a Garner address.

sorry if i created any confusion.

Disregarded9-side
12-23-2008, 15:14
I thought the one on Avent Ferry was posted, but when I was in Mission Valley recently, since my first post in this thread, I walked up and looked; it is not.

carolinajohn63
12-23-2008, 16:23
'State run' or 'state controlled'... either way, I sure would not want to have to pay to defend myself on that one.

No one wants to have to pay legal fees or have to face a bad charge against them. Lord knows that the New Hanover Sheriff's Office is famous for being over zealous. However, God forbid you are ever involved in a justified, self defensive shooting, you will still be paying big time. No matter how right you were....

No one is saying run into the ABC and say, "I am carrying...I wanna be the test case..."

The law is the law.

I will carry in an ABC that is not posted because is is not against the law to do so. If it became an issue, I will have to defend my self in court and pray that fellow CHL holders/lawyers would come to my assistance.

If not, then I will go at it alone. Like a quote from a great movie, "An Innocent Man,:"

"You don't have to stand tall in here, but sometimes, you just have to stand up......"