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thegriz18
01-06-2009, 12:25
I just saw this new Winchester ammo in the latest Guns and Ammo magazine. (the February edition I think, it has an XDm9 on the cover) Looking at the pictures provided, and reading the description on Winchester's site, it looks/sounds a lot like a Winchester version of Gold Dot. It is bonded ammo, welding the jacket and core together somehow. It is stated that the FBI has adopted this as a duty load. Anyone have anymore info?

hotpig
01-07-2009, 00:02
Looks like the Ranger Bonded.

I wonder if they will start selling the bullet to reload. :cool:

ULVER
01-07-2009, 01:29
First they tweak their talons, and now they come out with a bonded bullet...

??? What's a man to choose... ???

It may be out-dated now (:crying:), but that original 127gr. +P+ LEO Ranger T will likely be to the 9mm, what the 158gr. LHP was to the .38 Special.

thegriz18
01-07-2009, 09:14
Looks like the Ranger Bonded.

I wonder if they will start selling the bullet to reload. :cool:

I thought that, but the gold dot in the center of the expanded round makes me think it is something new. It is said to be FBI issue ammo, but it is not marketed under the Ranger line. It is marketed under the Supreme Elite line. I hope this turns out to be good stuff. My gun loves Winchester ammo.

SIGShooter
01-07-2009, 09:22
Judging by the pictures on the Winchester website it almost looks like a Bonded Ranger with the Talons.

I could be wrond but that's what it looks like to me.

http://www.winchester.com/products/newitems/pdx1.aspx

Disregarded9-side
04-16-2009, 16:59
I bought some of these today, as I needed some carry ammo and it was some of the only stuff available--I was talked into it by someone I trust.
Basically it's bonded like Gold-Dot, so it maintains more energy as it expands. The cases look exactly like SXTs; the bullet obviously looks much different, and is shaped much more like a target/ball 9mm than the SXT.

If there's any more info on the stuff I'd like to know, I don't really have enough to test too much myself. Glad to know the FBI approves...though I guess they're carrying .40s.

hotpig
04-16-2009, 19:41
Glad to know the FBI approves...though I guess they're carrying .40s.
9mm also

CATATOMIC
04-16-2009, 21:51
I bought a couple boxes of them in 9mm 124 +p the other day. I haven't shot any of them yet though.

Disregarded9-side
04-16-2009, 23:21
9mm also

Scwerd? Yeah I'm no expert...is it not just user preference? That would seem to make sense.
But we are talking about the Federal Government.

Natty
04-17-2009, 21:31
If there's any more info on the stuff I'd like to know, I don't really have enough to test too much myself. Glad to know the FBI approves...though I guess they're carrying .40s.

There is news of a recall on this ammo that was sent to the FBI.

In some independent tests it failed to expand sometimes when shot thru 4 layers of denim which is one of the FBI tests. Check out the bottom row of bullets on these pics here...http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

Disregarded9-side
04-17-2009, 23:31
^Interesting to know...thanks for the info. Does other bonded (Speer) ammo do this type of thing too? I've seen pictures all several hollow points that failed to expand.

What's the best way for the layman (me) to conduct an expansion test with this stuff? Shoot a gallon of water? I know nothing really can give you a true understanding of how the round will work in real life.

Natty
04-18-2009, 08:54
^Interesting to know...thanks for the info. Does other bonded (Speer) ammo do this type of thing too? I've seen pictures all several hollow points that failed to expand.

What's the best way for the layman (me) to conduct an expansion test with this stuff? Shoot a gallon of water? I know nothing really can give you a true understanding of how the round will work in real life.

I haven't seen any tests where Speer Gold Dot failed to expand like this.

Shooting gallons of water is a way to compare expansion of different rounds. You should use 4 jugs lined up to catch the bullet.

Wetpack is considered more realistic. Soak a stack of newspaper at least 12" thick for 2 days. Drain the water and shoot. You can lookup 'wetpack tests' to get more detailed info.

Ballistic gel is what the LE and ammo companies like best. You can buy it or make your own but it is much more expensive than water jugs or wetpack.

Disregarded9-side
04-18-2009, 09:00
^I'll shoot some wet phonebooks and get back to this thread within two weeks (with pictures!)
Thanks for the tips and the heads up.

DRT
04-19-2009, 18:00
When DOCGKR tested the Winchester .40 180gr bonded Q4355 (FBI load), 50% failed to expand after passing through heavy denim.

Glock+2
04-19-2009, 22:39
anyone have any ballistics on the new Winchester PDX1 in the 9mm 147 gr?

Disregarded9-side
04-19-2009, 22:46
anyone have any ballistics on the new Winchester PDX1 in the 9mm 147 gr?

That's what Natty, myself and others have been talking about...doesn't seem to be too much out there as of now. I'd love to see any links.
I've agreed to shoot five into wet phone books. Which will prove nothing; but will still be awesome.

Merkavaboy
04-19-2009, 23:41
This is total supposition on my part, but I think that the LE Ranger Bonded line of ammo isn't a big seller for Winchester, so instead of scrapping all the R&D and the money it took designing the bonded bullets, they're releasing the bonded ammo as a personal/civilian SD line.

BTW, the meplat of the 9mm 124+P looks just like that of the SXT bullet style with the six jacket "humps", but with a more shallow HP cavity.

fortyofforty
04-20-2009, 05:14
Just to confirm what has been posted, the LE boxes are marked "Ranger" and are bonded. The .40 S&W is 180 grain and the 9mm is 147 grain.

hotpig
04-20-2009, 07:19
This is total supposition on my part, but I think that the LE Ranger Bonded line of ammo isn't a big seller for Winchester, so instead of scrapping all the R&D and the money it took designing the bonded bullets, they're releasing the bonded ammo as a personal/civilian SD line.

BTW, the meplat of the 9mm 124+P looks just like that of the SXT bullet style with the six jacket "humps", but with a more shallow HP cavity.Before Winchester stopped allowing sales to dealers the Bonded market was growing fast.

Right now if I could get Ranger ammo for my store but had to only choose either the T or Bonded I would take the bonded. The T sales well but the bonded is the growing market.

marshallblaine02
04-20-2009, 08:37
Shot some at water jugs this weekend, blew up the first one, stuck in the book behind it, sorry about the pic will get better ones.

Merkavaboy
04-20-2009, 12:12
Before Winchester stopped allowing sales to dealers the Bonded market was growing fast.

Right now if I could get Ranger ammo for my store but had to only choose either the T or Bonded I would take the bonded. The T sales well but the bonded is the growing market.

That's interesting info. I'd think that LEA's, like a lot of the civilian population, would be falling all over themselves wanting the SXT loads. You see questions almost every week about the SXTs but rarely about the Ranger Bonded.

Good info. Thanks.

G21Since17
04-26-2009, 15:20
Is anyone else confused about which line of ammunition it is that is supposed to have failed the ballistics test?

I just bought some .45auto PDX1 because first of all, it was all that I could find, and second of all, it is replacing my regular Remington (I think - it's been a while) hollow points, which are known to have separation issues already (or am I wrong again?).

AWESOMO 4000
04-26-2009, 16:58
I did the water jug/phone book test this weekend. Two Ranger T's (.357 SIG) failed to expaned - one wasn't even deformed, the other had one petal spring open - the HSTs looked like they do on the box. Same with Gold Dots and CorBons. Granted, I'm not planning on being confronted by a big water bottle or Yellow Pages, but still...it consistently does not open. :dunno:

SIGShooter
04-26-2009, 19:00
I did the water jug/phone book test this weekend. Two Ranger T's (.357 SIG) failed to expaned - one wasn't even deformed, the other had one petal spring open - the HSTs looked like they do on the box. Same with Gold Dots and CorBons. Granted, I'm not planning on being confronted by a big water bottle or Yellow Pages, but still...it consistently does not open. :dunno:


What weapon were you shooting it from?

Was it bonded Ranger or standard T?

sbhaven
04-26-2009, 19:00
anyone have any ballistics on the new Winchester PDX1 in the 9mm 147 gr?
+1 Request on this one. I went to pick up several more boxes of Speer Gold Dot 147 9mm this morning and couldn't find any to be had so I picked up a box of the PDX1 9mm 147 as it was about the only ammo left on the shelf. No 9mm ball ammo to be had at a Cabelas this morning, only JHP.:wow:

Dandapani
04-26-2009, 19:27
I did the water jug/phone book test this weekend. Two Ranger T's (.357 SIG) failed to expaned - one wasn't even deformed, the other had one petal spring open - the HSTs looked like they do on the box. Same with Gold Dots and CorBons. Granted, I'm not planning on being confronted by a big water bottle or Yellow Pages, but still...it consistently does not open. :dunno:

And keep in mind that water over-expands JHP. If it won't expand in water... :whistling:

G21Since17
04-26-2009, 21:08
I am still wondering if people are talking about other ammunition failures in the PDX1 thread - or am I missing something here?

Seriously, is there a PDX1 recall or not? Is there a failure for the PDX1 to expand (or any other failure) or not?:dunno:

hotpig
04-26-2009, 21:12
There is no recall.

G21Since17
04-26-2009, 21:18
There is no recall.

Didn't think so, but thank you. People are just talking about one type of ammunition one minute, and then a different type the next.

Glock+2
04-26-2009, 21:23
I am still wondering if people are talking about other ammunition failures in the PDX1 thread - or am I missing something here?

Seriously, is there a PDX1 recall or not? Is there a failure for the PDX1 to expand (or any other failure) or not?:dunno:

NO, there:dunno: is NO recall...PDX1 is not the same as the Ranger, NOT THE SAME.

This is Winchester's New SD ammunition...new process, new bullets, and NO ballistics other than what is printed on the box.

I have some of the PDX1 9mm 124 +P, the box says 1200 MV:dunno::dunno:

G21Since17
04-26-2009, 21:26
So what really makes the PDX1 different than Gold Dot?

Glock+2
04-26-2009, 21:44
So what really makes the PDX1 different than Gold Dot?

I don't have any Gold Dot to compare other than what I have seen and their own info.

The Gold Dot 9mm 124 +P has 1220 MV, 410 Foot Lbs, Bonded, Nickel Plated Brass...

The PDX1 9mm 124 +P has 1200 MV, 396 Foot Lbs, Bonded, Nickel Plated Brass...

there is a difference in the hollow point bullet design notching, both look good.:dunno::dunno::dunno:

AWESOMO 4000
04-26-2009, 22:11
Sorry -

Wasn't trying to hijack the thread. I was NOT using PDX-1. I was using 125gr Ranger-T's - unbonded, fired from a SIG P229.

G21Since17
04-26-2009, 22:12
Sorry -

Wasn't trying to hijack the thread. I was NOT using PDX-1. I was using 125gr Ranger-T's - unbonded, fired from a SIG P229.

It's okay, I used Google search to find this thread instead of posting a new one - always want to avoid repeat posts when possible.

Natty
04-27-2009, 07:00
Yes,there was indeed a recent recall of this ammo, but it was only for specific lots of Bonded 180 grain .40 S&W sold exclusively to the FBI.

Win PDX1 ammo failed to expand about half the time when shot through heavy clothing, in independent tests. See post #10 in this thread.

Dont make the mistake of thinking that the FBI chooses the best available ammo for its agents. This is simply not true.

G21Since17
04-27-2009, 08:27
Yes,there was indeed a recent recall of this ammo, but it was only for specific lots of Bonded 180 grain .40 S&W sold exclusively to the FBI.

Win PDX1 ammo failed to expand about half the time when shot through heavy clothing, in independent tests. See post #10 in this thread.

Dont make the mistake of thinking that the FBI chooses the best available ammo for its agents. This is simply not true.

I won't, but I will go buy four denim jackets in different sizes now :supergrin:

Disregarded9-side
04-27-2009, 09:13
I won't, but I will go buy four denim jackets in different sizes now :supergrin:

x2.:rofl:

Natty
04-27-2009, 09:38
Shooting through 4 layers of denim is one of the FBI test protocols.

They are the ones who pick the ammo for their own agents.

:whistling:

Glock+2
04-27-2009, 10:42
Yes,there was indeed a recent recall of this ammo, but it was only for specific lots of Bonded 180 grain .40 S&W sold exclusively to the FBI

WRONG...:dunno::dunno::dunno:this was NOT the PDX1

SRT9
04-27-2009, 11:28
Alright...I'm no ballistics expert, but anyone ever hear of any perps wearing 4 layers of denim? :dunno:...However, I just picked up a box of PDX1 9mm 124+p. I just hope people don't start hoarding denim:tongueout:
:supergrin::supergrin::supergrin:

hotpig
04-27-2009, 11:55
Shooting through 4 layers of denim is one of the FBI test protocols.

They are the ones who pick the ammo for their own agents.

:whistling:I have not seen the post from the FBI tests that shows this. Do you have the link?

Natty
04-27-2009, 12:05
WRONG...:dunno::dunno::dunno:this was NOT the PDX1

So tell us what ammo that was sold to the FBI was recalled.

Disregarded9-side
04-27-2009, 12:11
Alright...I'm no ballistics expert, but anyone ever hear of any perps wearing 4 layers of denim? :dunno:..


Wearing four oversized jean-jackets seems like a plausible next evolution in Hip, Urban Street Wear. Nothing says 'I'm a bulletproof thug' like 4 over-sized, puffy, G-Unit jean-jackets.

Natty
04-27-2009, 12:18
I have not seen the post from the FBI tests that shows this. Do you have the link?

Hotpig, sorry I'm sure exactly what your question is.

hotpig
04-27-2009, 14:01
I was looking for the FBI Agency test that the Winchester ammo failed.

Dreamaster
04-27-2009, 14:56
Hot pig has this ammo in stock!!

Glock+2
04-27-2009, 15:01
So tell us what ammo that was sold to the FBI was recalled.

Show me where it states anywhere that Winchester recalled any PDX1 ammo!:dunno:

Natty
04-27-2009, 15:26
I have not seen the post from the FBI tests that shows this. Do you have the link?

Post #10 in this thread has link where independent tests showed PDX1 fails to expand. These are not tests by the FBI. They have released no test results to the public.

Natty
04-27-2009, 15:32
Show me where it states anywhere that Winchester recalled any PDX1 ammo!:dunno:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1035920

Post #7. This guy is a Winchester dealer.

Glock+2
04-27-2009, 15:59
Post #10 in this thread has link where independent tests showed PDX1 fails to expand. These are not tests by the FBI. They have released no test results to the public.

Well I have looked, read & re-read all of the posts/links/pictures/references/etc...that you refer to and NO where does it contain anything about Winchester PDX1 ammo.

Please show me the exact link that has any reference to Winchester PDX1 being recalled.

sbhaven
04-27-2009, 16:15
OK I guess I have to ask the question that seems to be baffling many here.
Is the Winchester Ranger ammunition the same as the Winchester PDX1?

The various links people are using to claim the Winchester PDX1 had been recalled doesn't mention PDX1 ammunition it only mention Winchester Ranger ammunition (and one specific batch at of it), unless I missed something.

hotpig
04-27-2009, 16:45
There are some out there that were disapointed that the Gold Dot was dropped by the DOJ as their duty round.

Apparently the FBI received one batch that did not meet specs. That situation was delt with.

FBI Ranger ammo and PDX are the same spec.

There is no recall on PDX or Ranger ammo.

DRT
04-27-2009, 18:45
Here's the link to the testing where the .40 180gr Q4355 (same as PDX1) load performed poorly (plugged 50% of the time and didnt expand) through IWBA protocol.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

If ammunition doesn't perform well through IWBA heavy clothing then I don't want it. .40 180gr PDX1 falls into that category.

Glock+2
04-27-2009, 22:09
Here's the link to the testing where the .40 180gr Q4355 (same as PDX1) load performed poorly (plugged 50% of the time and didnt expand) through IWBA protocol.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

If ammunition doesn't perform well through IWBA heavy clothing then I don't want it. .40 180gr PDX1 falls into that category.

First PDX1 is not the same as the Ranger..call Winchester, I did.

2nd, the link you use had no representation of facts of documentation from the FBI or Winchester.

There was no recall.:dunno::dunno::dunno:

hotpig
04-27-2009, 22:38
Here's the link to the testing where the .40 180gr Q4355 (same as PDX1) load performed poorly (plugged 50% of the time and didnt expand) through IWBA protocol.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26461

If ammunition doesn't perform well through IWBA heavy clothing then I don't want it. .40 180gr PDX1 falls into that category.It beat out the competition at the official tests so it must not be that bad.

It is interesting to note that the Ranger Bonded is in its third generation since being released in 2004.

The first generation had a real shallow hp. The second had one that look much like the Gold Dot. Now it and the PDX1 look more like the SXT including having talons when they expand. Got to love modern bullet technology.

G21Since17
04-27-2009, 22:51
First PDX1 is not the same as the Ranger..call Winchester, I did.

2nd, the link you use had no representation of facts of documentation from the FBI or Winchester.

There was no recall.:dunno::dunno::dunno:

I'm going to go with the voice of reason here... especially since I can find absolutely no evidence of a PDX1 recall anywhere else.

DRT
04-28-2009, 18:56
It beat out the competition at the official tests so it must not be that bad.

.....


To my knowledge, the FBI does not test to the more stringent IWBA heavy clothing protocol so this may be why the Q4355 load did better in FBI's testing vs DOCGKR's. Another possibility is that DOCGKR's ammo had a quality control issue. Neither is very comforting.

fortyofforty
04-29-2009, 05:31
My understanding is that at least one batch of the .40 S&W PDX1 (called Ranger Bonded on the box) was recalled by Winchester, whether officially or not. The ammunition was causing feeding problems. I have used later batches without that issue that did not cause feeding problems, so I believe the problem has been addressed.

J.P.
05-01-2009, 00:01
That's interesting info. I'd think that LEA's, like a lot of the civilian population, would be falling all over themselves wanting the SXT loads. You see questions almost every week about the SXTs but rarely about the Ranger Bonded.
Good info. Thanks.
Since there aren't any Ranger SXT loads, I'm not sure why they'd want them...

As to the Ranger T-series vs. Ranger Bonded, the bonded bullet design isn't going to come apart in testing (or on the street) like the T series can, and the Bonded has the potential for greater penetration.

I did the water jug/phone book test this weekend. Two Ranger T's (.357 SIG) failed to expaned - one wasn't even deformed, the other had one petal spring open - the HSTs looked like they do on the box. Same with Gold Dots and CorBons. Granted, I'm not planning on being confronted by a big water bottle or Yellow Pages, but still...it consistently does not open.
I'm not sure exactly how you prepared your test media but I can tell you for a fact that you will get wildly inconsistant results unless you have prepared it adequately in a fashion that's repeatable.

4 layers of denim will retard expansion of every JHP.
In order to see what the former Ranger SXT would take, I tested both 9mms in 6 & 8 layers of denim and they failed to expand.
As a matter of fact, Cor-Bon standard JHP was the only good expander in that regard.....no surprise at all, but not necessarily something you wanna' carry either.


Alright...I'm no ballistics expert, but anyone ever hear of any perps wearing 4 layers of denim? :dunno:...However, I just picked up a box of PDX1 9mm 124+p. I just hope people don't start hoarding denim:tongueout:
:supergrin:
A couple of denim jacket breast pockets will do the trick.
Keep in mind that often we are looking for ammo that will work under the widest range of circumstances, and the FBI demands a minimum penetration depth regardless of the test media


For my money Winchester can keep all of their Ranger/PDX line.

Remington Golden Saber and Golden Saber Bonded does the trick just fine and while I'm sure it's not infallible, they don't seem to be the subject of recalls. :dunno:

G21Since17
05-01-2009, 23:31
For my money Winchester can keep all of their Ranger/PDX line.

Remington Golden Saber and Golden Saber Bonded does the trick just fine and while I'm sure it's not infallible, they don't seem to be the subject of recalls. :dunno:

Since there is not any .357 magnum PDX1, and my wife's Taurus is not approved for .38 + P, I went with Remington for her. It was the first .357 hollow-point I could find. I am glad to hear someone give some good feedback on it.

fortyofforty
05-02-2009, 09:58
Since there is not any .357 magnum PDX1, and my wife's Taurus is not approved for .38 + P, I went with Remington for her. It was the first .357 hollow-point I could find. I am glad to hear someone give some good feedback on it.

If your wife's Taurus is a .357 magnum, it is certainly approved for .38 +P. .357 magnum is far higher in pressure that a .38 +P.

G21Since17
05-02-2009, 11:53
If your wife's Taurus is a .357 magnum, it is certainly approved for .38 +P. .357 magnum is far higher in pressure that a .38 +P.

That's what I would have thought, but my father has a S&W .38 special that is marked for all three ammunition types... anyway.

So I guess that it is always best to have .357 magnum out of .357, .38 special, and .38 + P.

thegriz18
05-03-2009, 12:40
That's what I would have thought, but my father has a S&W .38 special that is marked for all three ammunition types... anyway.

So I guess that it is always best to have .357 magnum out of .357, .38 special, and .38 + P.

If your gun is chambered for .357 Magnum, it can handle .357 Magnum, .38 Special +P, and .38 Special.

thegriz18
05-03-2009, 12:44
I had to bite the bullet and buy some PDX1 ammo today. I have been holding out for weeks, looking and looking, in stores and online and I always seem to be too late to get ammo. I was at dick's and they had 2 boxes of 165gr PDX1 ammo for 30 bucks each. I decided to snag it. I figure its better than no ammo at all. I was running low.

Snapper2
05-03-2009, 15:49
I pulled some of these bullets and loaded to 10mm velocities. The ranger t 180gr. spreaded its talons to almost an inch before losing its jacket into wet phone books. The pdx1 180gr held together but the talons balled up behind the bullet making itself more like a ball. Where as the 165 golden saber held its jacket and mushroom out to around .7. The difference I see is the bonded talons fold back at a higher velocity where as the hornady and GS just flatten out and penetrate.

thegriz18
05-03-2009, 19:40
I pulled some of these bullets and loaded to 10mm velocities. The ranger t 180gr. spreaded its talons to almost an inch before losing its jacket into wet phone books. The pdx1 180gr held together but the talons balled up behind the bullet making itself more like a ball. Where as the 165 golden saber held its jacket and mushroom out to around .7. The difference I see is the bonded talons fold back at a higher velocity where as the hornady and GS just flatten out and penetrate.

What was the penetration depth? I don't think much of media testing since none of it is a real body. Bullets do crazy things sometimes. Every manufacturer builds bullets to do well in gelatin. Any reputable JHP should do the trick. That is, provided you do yours. I think that most people probably can't put bullets where they need to go so we end up talking about the best performers and what expands and penetrates the best, what has the best one shot stops, which one spits fire and casts a spell upon its victim in the case of survival.
Point is people have been getting killed by lead round balls, mini balls, lead bullets, SWC, wad cutters, FMJ, SJHP, JHP, and .22 LR for years and years. Put the bullet where it needs to go. That is my philosophy now. Shot placement.

fortyofforty
05-04-2009, 05:24
I pulled some of these bullets and loaded to 10mm velocities. The ranger t 180gr. spreaded its talons to almost an inch before losing its jacket into wet phone books. The pdx1 180gr held together but the talons balled up behind the bullet making itself more like a ball. Where as the 165 golden saber held its jacket and mushroom out to around .7. The difference I see is the bonded talons fold back at a higher velocity where as the hornady and GS just flatten out and penetrate.

thegriz18 has it right. What is the penetration depth? A bullet whose petals have moved from open to folded back against the stump of the bullet has already passed through the stage where the petals are most open. A bullet that opens and stops will appear to be larger, and win GlockTalk debates about expanded size and all that, but really will not be superior in real life. Bear in mind, a ballistic media test is a snapshot of what the bullet was doing at the moment it stopped moving. A bullet that folds its petals back against the body might give you a little more margin for error in terms of expansion than one that merely opens and stops, although it will appear superior after it is recovered and compared with the first bullet.

mongo356
05-04-2009, 11:15
I've been following this thread for a while. Just for grins here are some informally tested Black Talons,Ranger-T, and Ranger bonded.
the Black Talon was fired years ago (my pre-glock days-lol) into a muddy creek bank.
The Ranger T and Bonded were fired into very moist bags of dirt like you would by from the hardware store.
Just a side note the Ranger bonded seem to shoot more accurate out of my guns than the Ranger-T.

thegriz18
05-09-2009, 15:27
I had a chance to shoot some PDX1 .40 S&W 165gr ammo at the range today. I have to admit that I was actually impressed. I shot it side by side with Hornady TAP 180gr, which I really like, a lot! Honestly, I feel more comfortable with the PDX1 now. The recoil and snap wasn't any more than the lightly loaded Hornady stuff. The PDX1 was very accurate also. From spitting distance out to some decent fight ranges. When I compare the two I have to go with the PDX1.

My reasoning:
1- It is harder and harder to find JHP ammo right now. Especially good LE ammo like Ranger or Federal HST.
2- Gold Dot and Golden Saber have brilliantly bright muzzle flash. That has impact on me.
3- Hornady TAP and PDX1 both produce zero muzzle flash which is a plus for me.
4- Hornady is easy to control. So is PDX1.
5- 180 and 165 grain bullets are very close in size and weight.
6- The PDX1 165 grain load spits out at around 1140fps. Hornady TAP 180 grain spits out at 950fps, almost 200 fps slower. I believe that velocity can always help out, or else rifles wouldn't be any benefit.
7- Winchester is reputable, and the FBI uses it so it can't be that bad.
8- I am thinking about this way too much, handguns suck! LOL!

A link to some PDX1 pics from another posting.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/Azrael2004/forums/rangereprt/tzr1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D2112819&usg=__-lIz6jHIy16dHwJTTs8MSx24wIs=&h=344&w=450&sz=79&hl=en&start=24&um=1&tbnid=zGXNEzDwZUZVwM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpdx1%2Bexpansion%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1

gatorboy
05-09-2009, 17:22
Damn Winchester has the most confusing lineup in the business. So, is my new box of Ranger Bonded 180 (RA40B) the same bullet as the PDX1 180?

hotpig
05-09-2009, 18:02
Damn Winchester has the most confusing lineup in the business. So, is my new box of Ranger Bonded 180 (RA40B) the same bullet as the PDX1 180?Bullet is the same. Load spec may not be.

thegriz18
05-09-2009, 19:38
Damn Winchester has the most confusing lineup in the business. So, is my new box of Ranger Bonded 180 (RA40B) the same bullet as the PDX1 180?
I don't know. I don't think it is. The pics of the expanded PDX1 show some talons. I don't know if the RA40Bs have talons. That is a question for--->
Bullet is the same. Load spec may not be.

Do the RA40Bs have talons?

hotpig
05-09-2009, 19:54
The first two generations do not. The last generation that looks like a SXT has talons.

carbofan21
05-09-2009, 20:31
And keep in mind that water over-expands JHP. If it won't expand in water... :whistling:

i had the same problem with buffalo bore's "soft lead" .38 special +p 158 grain lswhp, on two seperate occasions. first time i tried it from a 2.25" sp101, and the second time was from a 4" 686. i couldn't get it to expand once.

it zipped straight through as many as 4 water jugs, and typically sheared off a portion of the hollowpoint, as i found lead shavings in the bottom of some jugs, and the bullets always exited the jugs at an angle. they may have expanded a little, but i never recovered one to examine. needless to say, i was not impressed

thegriz18
05-09-2009, 20:38
The first two generations do not. The last generation that looks like a SXT has talons.

Are you referring to the generation that has a rounded on the petals' profile similar to the pic I posted?

I thought I would add a few target PDX1 pics.

gatorboy
05-10-2009, 04:54
Thanks hotpig, now can you tell me what gen. I have?

The box has this stamped on the inside flap just like this:

71BK52
01

Merkavaboy
05-10-2009, 08:39
7- Winchester is reputable, and the FBI uses it so it can't be that bad.


Just because the FBI chooses a specific type of load doesn't make it an optimal SD load, for LE and citizens alike.

After their fiasco in '86 the FBI chose the Win 9mm 147JHP subsonic after all of their barrier/gel testing. Many other LEA's followed in the shadows of the FBI only to find out that it didn't perform on the streets like everyone thought.

The U.S. Border Patrol, who are involved in more shootings than all other Fed agencies combined, when they were looking for a 9mm duty load to replace their 357Mag 110JHP & the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+, didn't blindly follow the FBI's choice and decided to do their own testing and chose the 115+P+ and employed it with great success.

When the FBI went to the 40S&W they went to the 180JHP. The USBP went with the 155JHP route instead of following the FBI's route, and the 155's have once again worked great for them.

If one chooses their SD ammo strictly by what a Fed agency uses, I'd much rather go with an agency that has the most officer involved shootings rather than one that has OIS's that are few and far between.

thegriz18
05-10-2009, 10:32
Just because the FBI chooses a specific type of load doesn't make it an optimal SD load, for LE and citizens alike.

After their fiasco in '86 the FBI chose the Win 9mm 147JHP subsonic after all of their barrier/gel testing. Many other LEA's followed in the shadows of the FBI only to find out that it didn't perform on the streets like everyone thought.

The U.S. Border Patrol, who are involved in more shootings than all other Fed agencies combined, when they were looking for a 9mm duty load to replace their 357Mag 110JHP & the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+, didn't blindly follow the FBI's choice and decided to do their own testing and chose the 115+P+ and employed it with great success.

When the FBI went to the 40S&W they went to the 180JHP. The USBP went with the 155JHP route instead of following the FBI's route, and the 155's have once again worked great for them.

If one chooses their SD ammo strictly by what a Fed agency uses, I'd much rather go with an agency that has the most officer involved shootings rather than one that has OIS's that are few and far between.

I knew that was coming. It really can't be terrible if the FBI is using it currently. It may not be the best, but it probably isn't the worst either. I know about the USBP's pick of 155gr .40 over 180gr. I have been teetering back and forth between the two. I have always thought that velocity was probably more important than bullet weight, especially a difference of 15 or 25 grains. The velocity factor was the other reason that I decided to go with 165 grain PDX1. It pushes bullets to a respectable 1140fps, or at least advertised as such. I feel like 165 grain splits the difference nicely. Good velocity, good weight.

Is USBP still using Remington Express 155gr JHP at 1205fps?

Now I know someone will come along and say that any bullet in .40 other than 180 grain loads are less-than-lethal rounds.:cool:

fortyofforty
05-10-2009, 11:03
Just because the FBI chooses a specific type of load doesn't make it an optimal SD load, for LE and citizens alike.

After their fiasco in '86 the FBI chose the Win 9mm 147JHP subsonic after all of their barrier/gel testing. Many other LEA's followed in the shadows of the FBI only to find out that it didn't perform on the streets like everyone thought.

The U.S. Border Patrol, who are involved in more shootings than all other Fed agencies combined, when they were looking for a 9mm duty load to replace their 357Mag 110JHP & the erratic performing 38Spl 110JHP+P+, didn't blindly follow the FBI's choice and decided to do their own testing and chose the 115+P+ and employed it with great success.

When the FBI went to the 40S&W they went to the 180JHP. The USBP went with the 155JHP route instead of following the FBI's route, and the 155's have once again worked great for them.

If one chooses their SD ammo strictly by what a Fed agency uses, I'd much rather go with an agency that has the most officer involved shootings rather than one that has OIS's that are few and far between.

Actually, I believe the FBI went with the 165 grain Federal Hydra Shok, then the 165 grain Speer Gold Dot medium velocity. Now, they've gone to the 180 grain Winchester Ranger Bonded.

hotpig
05-10-2009, 20:14
Thanks hotpig, now can you tell me what gen. I have?

The box has this stamped on the inside flap just like this:

71BK52
01I have no idea. The first gen had a very shallow hollow point.
The second had a regular looking hp like a Gold Dot. The latest looks like the SXT.

thegriz18
05-10-2009, 21:09
Actually, I believe the FBI went with the 165 grain Federal Hydra Shok, then the 165 grain Speer Gold Dot medium velocity. Now, they've gone to the 180 grain Winchester Ranger Bonded.

I think you are correct. At least I think the hydra-shok part is. I remember reading about how awesome hydra-shok was because the FBI used it.

G21Since17
05-10-2009, 21:13
Let me just ask this one last question...

Will all of the calibers in the Winchester PDX1 series kill a baddie if I get them with a good shot (or at least drop them with a decent torso shot)?

If the answer is yes, then I think I have done well to get my .45 and my father's .38 (+ P).

I also got .357 magnum Remington Gold Saber High Performance Jacket for two wheel guns. How does this stuff hold up to other ammunitions mentioned here? If I am reading this right Remington makes a Gold Saber HPJ for .45 Auto (+ P)... would my G21 handle this well?

I don't know if I have heard a definitive answer on what is considered the best hollowpoint ammunition.

thegriz18
05-10-2009, 21:24
Let me just ask this one last question...

Will all of the calibers in the Winchester PDX1 series kill a baddie if I get them with a good shot (or at least drop them with a decent torso shot)?

If the answer is yes, then I think I have done well to get my .45 and my father's .38 (+ P).

I also got .357 magnum Remington Gold Saber High Performance Jacket for two wheel guns. How does this stuff hold up to other ammunitions mentioned here? If I am reading this right Remington makes a Gold Saber HPJ for .45 Auto (+ P)... would my G21 handle this well?

I don't know if I have heard a definitive answer on what is considered the best hollowpoint ammunition.

That is the most subjective question out there. People will tell you all kinds of different things. There are people on this forum that think its not worth carrying if you can't carry HST or Ranger T. Nearly everyone thinks hydra-shok is garbage, everyone is underrating the XTP, and any new comers, like the PDX1 are considered inferior because they don't expand to 2x bullet diameter, or whatever. We all make a big deal out of it when the cold hard truth is buy any type of premium HP, make sure it works reliably in your firearm, and then learn to shoot that firearm.

All handguns generally suck for everything, except huge revolvers. Learn to put the bullet where you want it and where it needs to be. Shot placement will far outweigh any crazy or fancy bullet design. Make sure your load gets 12 inches of penetration, and opens up about 1.5x the original diameter of the bullet. Other than that, learn to put them where you want them to go.

Remington Golden Saber is a good round. I don't use it because it has some muzzle flash which adversely impacts me at night and in low light. My two carry loads are Hornady TAP and Winchester PDX1. Both have decent terminal performance from testing I can find, and both produce nearly zero muzzle flash. If you have two bullets, one expands from .40 to .95 and only gets 9 inches of penetration, and another that expands from .40 to .61, but gets 15 inches of penetration, the choice is the latter. That is the short answer. There are much longer versions. Search this forum and you will find more information than you care to read.

sidewinderam9m
08-31-2009, 14:31
I just shot some 180 grain pdx1's into water, and into a newspaper water mixture. Those shot into water were more expanded than is shown in the photos of the one I shot through newspaper water jugs (but water only tends to over-expand). Still impressive expansion though, I titled my post g35 Winchester pdx1 expansion results, the photos are pretty high quality so check it out....I will shoot through some denim next time and see what happens.

fortyofforty
09-01-2009, 05:39
I don't know if I have heard a definitive answer on what is considered the best hollowpoint ammunition.

That's because there is no definitive answer. There are plenty of answers, however, and you'll read a bunch of them on GT. Take them for what they're worth.

ContractSoldier
03-02-2010, 02:36
Now it and the PDX1 look more like the SXT including having talons when they expand. Got to love modern bullet technology.

So current production, Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 147 Gr has talons?

glocksterr
03-02-2010, 11:48
So current production, Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1 147 Gr has talons?

yes and no.

hotpig
03-02-2010, 22:39
yes and no.Right, they do not stay out expanded like the T-Series or the Black Talon.

IndyGunFreak
03-02-2010, 22:43
I had a buddy who bought some 230gr PDX1's for his .45 the other day, and he shot off 4 rounds and didn't like them(lol)... He didn't say what the problem was, but he gave me the rest of the box. I'm gonna try to shoot them tomorrow out of my Sig.

IGF

Dalton Wayne
03-02-2010, 23:14
PDX1 130 gr +P is what I carry in my S&W 442
Regards
DW

ContractSoldier
03-03-2010, 01:21
I'm going to get a box soon, dont know what I'll do with them, but i would like to see some gel test results from the 9mm 147 Gr. version.

TNXB21
03-03-2010, 12:46
Some light reading with a fact or two


http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm