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-   -   Range Report AK vs AR (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158806)

Alaskapopo 12-15-2009 21:14

Range Report AK vs AR
 
RANGE REPORT: Saiga AK47 vs. Colt 6920
Date 12-14-09 and 12-15-09

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2.../SaigaAK47.jpg
VS

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...escription.jpg during this test I took the 3x magnifier off the weapon to make it a fair contest.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...9/Picofgun.jpg

Just to start this is not a thread to bash either weapon. But I decided to see which weapon was best for me at the range. Rather than just go off assumptions. On 12-14-09 I fired several types of rounds from a bench in the Saiga to see which was the most accurate. That turned out to be Federal American Eagle at 1.70

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ammoathome.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...GLEATRANGE.jpg

Alaskapopo 12-15-2009 21:15

Then on 12-15-09 I took out my Colt 6920. I used reloads loaded with BLC2 powder, Military primers and military 62 grain bullets (SS109) . A while back I got these bullets at a great price on line. This is not military ammo but it will have to do. The specs are close as I could get as a reloader. The results for this test was the Colt averaged 1.41http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...yardgroups.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...getatrange.jpg

Here are a few range pics
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...tiontarget.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...caitonpic2.jpg

Earlier in the month I fired a variety of weapons in a simple CQB drill. (Start from low ready and fire 2 rounds at 3 USPSA targets spaced 3 yards apart and 7 yards from me.
Here are the results from the Saiga vs. the Colt.


Gun Saiga AK47 Red dot (Aimpoint ML2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j3i_n7LuP0

1. 2.91
2. 3.28
3. 2.71
4. 2.71
5. 2.67

Average time 2.86

HITS

T1 9A 1C
T2 10A
T3 9A 1C

Total hits: 28 A 2C

Colt 6920 Aimpoint (Flash hider no comp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFlJVVZDx68

TIME
1. 2.87
2. 3.08
3. 2.79
4. 2.75
5. 2.87
Average 2.87

HITS

T1 8A 2C
T2 9A 1C
T3 8A 2C

Total hits 25A 5C


CONCLUSION:

The AR had a slight accuracy advantage from the bench at 50 yards with similar optic set ups. On the speed drill both rifles were pretty much dead even with .01 of a second going to the Colt. These guns are a fair comparison in my opinion because both represent some of the best in their breed. (Russian AK vs. Colt AR) and both have similar upgrades in optics and triggers. The AK has a 2 stage trigger that is one of the better ones I have used.

I still need to do a long range shooting exercise. But at close range of 50 yards or less I feel that these weapons are about equal. I never gave the AK full credit before but if you set one up with a good optic and put an extended safety on it its not too bad. I also need to do some tests including reloads and other gun manipulations. The AR has the edge at long range and at speed of reloading but I want to document it. This report is not meant to be a slam on either gun. I like both systems a lot.

Pat

Javelin 12-15-2009 21:25

Now you should take a WASR out and tell us how those groups are.

No more AK bashing posts from you for a while huh?

:whistling:

Alaskapopo 12-15-2009 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javelin (Post 14353217)
Now you should take a WASR out and tell us how those groups are.

No more AK bashing posts from you for a while huh?

:whistling:

I could take my Mak 90 out it does not group nearly as well as the Saiga. If you put good ammo in the AR it does a lot better. But I wanted this to be a fair contest. I will admit I was surprised by the results. No more AK bashing from me.
Pat

WayaX 12-15-2009 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo (Post 14353229)
I could take my Mak 90 out it does not group nearly as well as the Saiga. If you put good ammo in the AR it does a lot better. But I wanted this to be a fair contest. I will admit I was surprised by the results. No more AK bashing from me.
Pat

I really regret getting rid of my Saiga (gave it to a friend). I wouldn't own any other make of AK. My main beef with the gun isn't the common accuracy argument, but the ergonomics to me are atrocious. Yes, you can bring it on target quickly, but it's just uncomfortable to use.

javelinadave 12-15-2009 22:44

An AK is good for 100 to 200 yards at best.
An AR is good to 800 yards +/-.
That is with iron sights, optics may push that out a bit but I'll take an AR any day in a gun fight.

jokeruh 12-15-2009 22:56

Pat,

Thanks for the testing.

I think you have settled (by this test) one of the two biggest internet rumors - that AK's cant hit barn door outside of 25 yards (the other being that AR's are not reliable and can't shoot more than 30 rounds without breaking).

Obviously, with good optics and decent ammo the AK is reasonably accurate (though I know that the AR will best it at longer ranges).

I have several AR's and several AK's. I much prefer the ergonomics of the AR but I still prefer the AK overall. I can understand why many prefer the AR though.

Thanks again

Alaskapopo 12-15-2009 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by javelinadave (Post 14353663)
An AK is good for 100 to 200 yards at best.
An AR is good to 800 yards +/-.
That is with iron sights, optics may push that out a bit but I'll take an AR any day in a gun fight.

I like the AR as well. But 800 yards plus is something that needs good optics or a very skilled shooter with Irons. I frankly can't see well enough to hit a man sized target at 800 yards. I need to do more testing. But I believe the AR is a good gun to 400 or 500 with optics and good ammo (75 grain TAP) I believe (hypothises) that the AK with good ammo and optics is probably good to 300 yards. Again I will have to test these theories. Both do what assault rifles were intended to do. That is fight inside of 300 yards.

The Stock Ak vs the stock AR is a different story. The sights on the AK limit it quite a bit. I also hate the stock safety.
Pat

Alaskapopo 12-15-2009 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokeruh (Post 14353702)
Pat,

Thanks for the testing.

I think you have settled (by this test) one of the two biggest internet rumors - that AK's cant hit barn door outside of 25 yards (the other being that AR's are not reliable and can't shoot more than 30 rounds without breaking).

Obviously, with good optics and decent ammo the AK is reasonably accurate (though I know that the AR will best it at longer ranges).

I have several AR's and several AK's. I much prefer the ergonomics of the AR but I still prefer the AK overall. I can understand why many prefer the AR though.

Thanks again

I agree both are excellent guns and it depends on what you value more and what your needs are.
Pat

fivestar 12-16-2009 08:58

Very nice comparison, and beautiful scenery. I wish I was there.

A couple of years ago I sold off my 2 AR's, AK, and Sig 556 due to divorce. I've since been able to buy back my AK from a friend. I'd like to get another AR sometime in the near future. However, that's a lot of money for me now. I've been playing around with the idea of getting an Ultimak rail for my AK and getting another Eotech and having that as my "go to" rifle. My AK isn't on par with your's though, as it's just a cheap WASR.

Thanks again!

Atl_Jay 12-16-2009 11:00

Thanks Pat! Very informative.

What brands of x39 did you shoot? I have Saigas and am curious about the best commercially available ammo.

Regards

Alaskapopo 12-16-2009 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atl_Jay (Post 14355882)
Thanks Pat! Very informative.

What brands of x39 did you shoot? I have Saigas and am curious about the best commercially available ammo.

Regards

I posted a range report in this thread. It lists all the ammo I shot.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1158377

Hedo1 12-16-2009 12:02

Good report I enjoyed it. I'm an AR guy but I own and shoot both weapons.

Alaskapopo 12-16-2009 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hedo1 (Post 14356276)
Good report I enjoyed it. I'm an AR guy but I own and shoot both weapons.

Me too. I like both guns but am more of an AR guy.
Pat

Jack23 12-19-2009 22:43

I enjoyed reading your test results. I am new to the world of black soulless rifles and went through a length decision making process to decide AR or AK. AK or AR??? I finally settled on the AR and I too bought the Colt LE 6920. I will be getting the AK next year. I admire the effort you seemingly made to keep this test objective and "fair" I recently saw Gunny Lee Ermy do a comparrison between the AK and M16 but it was focussed on caliber performance. Of course the AK left the M16 in the dust on that one.

If you do any further testing please post up the results. A lot of us noobs like to read and learn.

I'm kind of a purist on this gun. I prefer to leave it bone stock if possible but at my age I may need to put some optics on it of some kind if I want to shoot beyond 50 yds, Which I most certainly do. I can consistently produce the ONE-RAGGED-HOLE at 25 yards through the iron sights and I'm sneakin' up on being there at 50yds. I'm going tomorrow and I expect to have it tightened up to that same ability at 50yds by the time I leave there. But The old eyes aint what they were 43 years ago when I last fired a military rifle.

Alaskapopo 12-20-2009 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack23 (Post 14378991)
I enjoyed reading your test results. I am new to the world of black soulless rifles and went through a length decision making process to decide AR or AK. AK or AR??? I finally settled on the AR and I too bought the Colt LE 6920. I will be getting the AK next year. I admire the effort you seemingly made to keep this test objective and "fair" I recently saw Gunny Lee Ermy do a comparrison between the AK and M16 but it was focussed on caliber performance. Of course the AK left the M16 in the dust on that one.

If you do any further testing please post up the results. A lot of us noobs like to read and learn.

I'm kind of a purist on this gun. I prefer to leave it bone stock if possible but at my age I may need to put some optics on it of some kind if I want to shoot beyond 50 yds, Which I most certainly do. I can consistently produce the ONE-RAGGED-HOLE at 25 yards through the iron sights and I'm sneakin' up on being there at 50yds. I'm going tomorrow and I expect to have it tightened up to that same ability at 50yds by the time I leave there. But The old eyes aint what they were 43 years ago when I last fired a military rifle.

I enjoy doing these reports. I will try to do more this Monday and Tuesday. I want to do a drill at 100 yards and I also want to compare reload speeds.

As to caliber the 7.62 has the 5.56 on barrier penetration but the 5.56 has the edge in tissue damage. That may change with Hornadays new Vmax load.
Pat

Suburban 12-20-2009 11:32

do times include taking the safety off?

Alaskapopo 12-20-2009 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburban (Post 14381138)
do times include taking the safety off?

Not when these were filmed (at least not for the AK). But since I have added a Krebs safety which is very fast.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...rebssafety.jpg

pleaforwar 12-20-2009 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo (Post 14353724)
I agree both are excellent guns and it depends on what you value more and what your needs are.
Pat

Bingo, I could not say it any better. Great comparison Pat. :thumbsup:

ampdog 12-28-2009 08:12

Great Post, Please keep us up to date on your testing!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Also, to be fair we cannot forget the AK's biggest strength, reliability. It will work through all kinds of environments, neglect, and abuse.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I am an AR guy too because of ergonomics, but I have to say the AK is getting better in that area too, with all of the new upgrades on the market.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

Hedo1 12-28-2009 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ampdog (Post 14429583)
Great Post, Please keep us up to date on your testing!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Also, to be fair we cannot forget the AK's biggest strength, reliability. It will work through all kinds of environments, neglect, and abuse.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I am an AR guy too because of ergonomics, but I have to say the AK is getting better in that area too, with all of the new upgrades on the market.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

I watched a training video of Sonny Puzikas demonstrating AK techniques. At the end he compared the AK to the AR. In his words: "AR is a prom queen, AK is more like a Biker Chick", "after you are done with biker chick just wash her off with a hose and she is good to go again, same as AK". I'm paraphrasing from memory but it was a great line.

Agonizer 12-28-2009 10:08

I have two AR type rifles, and several AK's. If I would need a rifle for any kind of defensive work, (SHTF) I would grab one of my AK's.

In my opinion, the AK is like the Glock of rifles. It is simple, and just plain works. The 7.62 x 39 I believe is also a better cartridge.

If you shoot an AK enough, and get used to it, I think the ergonomics are really quite good.

This is subject to much debate, but it is what works for me.

That being said, the AR's surely are a cool weapon, enjoyable to shoot, and fun to customize.

Chuck TX 12-28-2009 10:33

You ought to get a FN SCAR to throw into the mix in order to see how the hybrid types compare. Just saying. :whistling: :supergrin:

Alaskapopo 12-28-2009 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck TX (Post 14430279)
You ought to get a FN SCAR to throw into the mix in order to see how the hybrid types compare. Just saying. :whistling: :supergrin:

I have too much money wrapped up in other projects to get a SCAR.
Pat

internal 12-28-2009 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo (Post 14379326)

As to caliber the 7.62 has the 5.56 on barrier penetration but the 5.56 has the edge in tissue damage.
Pat

Not only that but the exterior ballistics on the 5.56/.223 are mucho superior.

If you sight an AR in for 50 yards its going to hit no more then 2" up or down on target from 25 yards out to almost 300 yards.


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