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-   -   Trolling for loads a road to problems (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1166906)

RLDS45S 01-05-2010 18:32

Trolling for loads a road to problems
 
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

RustyFN 01-05-2010 19:02

Plus what is a good combination in one persons gun won't necessarily be a good combination in someone Else's gun. That's the fun part of reloading is finding the right load for your gun. I agree RLDS it's not hard and not real time consumming either.

JesseCJC 01-05-2010 19:26

some people are just overly anal about how they develop loads. Everyone is quick to blame a certain headstamp when more often then not it's the indian, not the arrows. A lot of the newer reloaders, myself included, are just hesitant to go out there and shoot off their loads without other people letting them know things will be ok, just don't get cocky or arrogant while on the bench. Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Colorado4Wheel 01-05-2010 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLDS45S (Post 14485483)
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

Freak is that you?

Bones507 01-05-2010 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseCJC (Post 14485833)
Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Well i didnt have that thought but when i took my first reloads out to the rifle range and was about to set the first one off, i had thoughts of the bolt slamming thru the lugs and imbedding itself in my forehead, lol. I think anyone who says they werent a bit "CONCERNED" when they fired their first reloads is how should i put it ? "Fibbing"? :rofl:

jdavionic 01-05-2010 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseCJC (Post 14485833)
Hell, I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol

Just wait until you get into building your own rifles :supergrin:

GioaJack 01-05-2010 20:10

Wanna take the worry out of shooting your first rifle reloads? Use an old black powder shooter's trick.

When we build a new black powder barrel we dump three times the heaviest anticipated charge down the barrel, top it off with a patched round ball, tie the barrel to a used car tire laying flat on the ground, attach a string to the trigger, back off a safe distance and let 'er rip.

Great fun... unless the barrel blows up. Come to think of it... that's great fun too!

Jack

JesseCJC 01-05-2010 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic (Post 14486254)
Just wait until you get into building your own rifles :supergrin:

Hah, both of my black rifles are "home built" using maybe 5-6 different manufacturers parts. That was no big deal to me. Seeing a thread about KBs and what it did to the rifle scared me a whole hell of a lot more than firing my own and first built black rifle.

RustyFN 01-05-2010 20:19

Quote:

I thought about rigging up a pully system when I loaded up my first rifle rounds in fear of a KB lol
If I remember right I think it was Jack that said Ex-wives were good for load testing. :rofl: I remember when I shot my first reloads I aimed my gun at the target then turned my head, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger.

jdavionic 01-05-2010 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyFN (Post 14486339)
If I remember right I think it was Jack that said Ex-wives were good for load testing. :rofl: I remember when I shot my first reloads I aimed my gun at the target then turned my head, closed my eyes and pulled the trigger.

LOL...my first AR build wasn't too unnerving. My first AK build was a little unnerving since I made the receiver from a flat. The worst was an Enfield that I refinished. It had the chamber area with pitting. I brought it to 2 gunsmiths after refinishing to have it inspected before firing it. Even after they both said it was fine, I still cringed and turned my head away on that first shot.

jdavionic 01-05-2010 21:05

WRT the actual original post, people ask questions to learn from the mistakes and success of others. As I stated in a post elsewhere, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic
People take the information, see if it's consistent with their setup / expectations, make adjustments here & there, load test rounds, and fine tune from there. Anyone that takes load data, loads hundreds of rounds, and goes from there is a fool. And anyone who seriously thinks that a reloader is considering such actions is even more of a fool.


<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“Go read the manual” is without a doubt a required start. But if you’ve been reloading for any short amount time, you will soon discover that manuals vary on the same load data for the same powder and bullets. So people ask for help. What’s the big deal? You can help them or ignore them. I opt for helping them.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
“Go see the powder manufacturer’s website for data” is always great advice and should be done. But anyone who has reloaded for a short amount of time will tell you that many manufacturers do not have data for all bullet weights / types. So people tend to look at the data that is there, ask questions to help fill in the gaps or gain confidence, load test loads, fire them, and refine as necessary. Again, what’s the big deal? You can help them or ignore them.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Suppose everyone took an arrogant approach. Which is better – a reloader that makes their rounds for plinking or one that does so for competition shooting? For pistol, let’s be more arrogant…if you’re not a GM and a reloader, you don’t know squat and should shut your lazy mouth up.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own. But simply because someone asks which powder, what’s the difference between Wolf and CCI primers, is there a difference between loads for plated vs. lead bullets, which OAL works for your gun, what load do you use for 9mm 147 gr FMJ ….it doesn’t mean that folks need to jump their case, call them a troll, and tell ‘em to piss off. Inevitably, people need to be responsible in their approach to reloading. But asking questions is simply another way of doing your homework. For me, I say ‘no big deal’ and ‘feel free to ask questions’. If I can help, I will. Just don’t ask me which is better – AK or AR.<o:p></o:p>

OgenRwot 01-05-2010 21:29

Glad to see I'm one of the targets of this thread (see post 17 here: http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165659). My point was this, some people don't have a whole hell of a lot of time and money to go through the finite process of developing a perfect load from scratch. We come here to get a few ideas of where to start and go from there, that's what I do. I'm not looking for some magic recipe that will work in my gun. But thanks for taking the time to ***** about this in ANOTHER thread. The first one got locked and I'm pretty sure Freak's thread about leaving will too. This one is heading in that direction too. But yeah, thanks for quoting me :upeyes:

ETA:
By the way, this is why I don't like coming around here much anymore. People ***** way too much about this crap. There is so much drama here and FAR too many personal attacks over the most pointless crap ever.

Zombie Steve 01-05-2010 21:56

Wish I'd trolled a little more... I probably could have saved myself a hundred bucks worth of powder, probably as much in bullets, brass...


On the other hand, I learned a lot by that trial and error.

As long as someone isn't short-cutting the development process or otherwise being unsafe, color me indifferent to the "trolling for a load" type thread. I'll give you my 2 cents if I know something from my experiences, probably won't post if I don't.

fredj338 01-05-2010 22:20

Quote:

Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own.
I agree, & I am always willing to help, but there is an alarming number of newbs, probably do to the ammo shortage, that want to shortcut the process. Retention of knowledge is better if one does reading & practical application, not just plug & play. The more you study, the more you will learn & then be able to understand why book A loads are diff than book B, etc. Take that to the range for practical some expereince & it all comes together.
It's not baking a cake. If you muck it up, it will cost you at least a gun, maybe an eye or finger. While forums are great places for opinions & to pick the brains of those that have been there & done that, it's best to use it as just that, another level of your own personal experience. There are so many diff powder & bullet combos, I can see the advantage of asking for a place to start, but the guys that get me are the ones that think they can just ask for your fav load & then plug & play & hope it all works. Without cross referencing, that is a KB waiting to happen.

partsman 01-05-2010 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bones507 (Post 14486212)
Well i didnt have that thought but when i took my first reloads out to the rifle range and was about to set the first one off, i had thoughts of the bolt slamming thru the lugs and imbedding itself in my forehead, lol. I think anyone who says they werent a bit "CONCERNED" when they fired their first reloads is how should i put it ? "Fibbing"? :rofl:

your not the only one i was scared ****less the first time i shot my 45/70 no 1 all i could picture was the block crushing my eye and take off the right side of my head.....

dudel 01-06-2010 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredj338 (Post 14487192)
I agree, & I am always willing to help, but there is an alarming number of newbs, probably do to the ammo shortage, that want to shortcut the process. Retention of knowledge is better if one does reading & practical application, not just plug & play. The more you study, the more you will learn & then be able to understand why book A loads are diff than book B, etc. Take that to the range for practical some expereince & it all comes together. It's not baking a cake. If you muck it up, it will cost you at least a gun, maybe an eye or finger. While forums are great places for opinions & to pick the brains of those that have been there & done that, it's best to use it as just that, another level of your own personal experience. There are so many diff powder & bullet combos, I can see the advantage of asking for a place to start, but the guys that get me are the ones that think they can just ask for your fav load & then plug & play & hope it all works. Without cross referencing, that is a KB waiting to happen.

+1 Fred; but Darwin is never unemployed. He's busy cleaning the gene pool of lazy loaders. May take time. but he's ruthless.

GlockSupremacy 01-06-2010 02:29

I feel sorry in advance for the next few people that ask for anything load related in the reloading forum.

I'll admit Ive asked for pet loads a few times. As a matter of fact i did recently for some .223 loads, and of all people freakshow and many others helped me out.

Stated something along the lines of tac burns cleaner than h335 and might be better for bullets heavier than 55grs. (which i plan on shooting, so i saved money by having one powder for .223)

Well i ended up buying tac and shot great groups from the AR.

Anyone that does not verify the charge of loads (in reloading manuals) is simply mad. Yet by asking my question here i ended up with a great shooting round, informed by experienced loaders.

My opinion is that the reloading forum is the most knowledgeable of all the forums on glocktalk. I'd hate to see it change.

If freakshow called me a dumbass, i might seriously look into my reloading practices before arguing with him. I guess im weird.

Take care guys, its very late im off to bed.

dudel 01-06-2010 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdavionic (Post 14486717)
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Point being, reloading is very much about sharing information. I agree people need to research on your own. But simply because someone asks which powder, what’s the difference between Wolf and CCI primers, is there a difference between loads for plated vs. lead bullets, which OAL works for your gun, what load do you use for 9mm 147 gr FMJ ….it doesn’t mean that folks need to jump their case, call them a troll, and tell ‘em to piss off. Inevitably, people need to be responsible in their approach to reloading. But asking questions is simply another way of doing your homework. For me, I say ‘no big deal’ and ‘feel free to ask questions’. If I can help, I will. Just don’t ask me which is better – AK or AR.<o:p></o:p>

I agree with your point. The issue, is those that won't do any research. As the OP mentioned so eloquently, "trolling for loads". Rusty is right, what shoots good in one gun won't necessarily shoot well in another. To your point of books and web sites, yes, load books and powder sites only give you a starting point; not the end point. Due to all the variables involved, that's all they can give you. Part of learning to reload is learning to work up a load. Learning to read pressure signs, learning the difference between a fast powder and a slow powder, between an empty case and a compressed load, between a light crimp, heavy crimp and a roll crimp, about case volume and powder density, about BC and COL, about understanding what the chrony tells you. Plus many other things. As with many things in life, the more you know, the more you find there is to learn.

As the OP said, if you don't want to take the time to learn, you won't be much of a reloader, in fact, you could be a danger to others on the range and yourself. Those people should just go and buy their ammo. It would be safer for everyone including the shooter.

It's like the shooting itself. I see some targets posted by newbs that make me want to cringe (8" groups at 15 feet -doing great - thought I'd share!). Got a new gun and sent lead downrange. No concept of safety, not to mention sight picture, setting zero, slinging up, breathing, etc. I'm sure much of our current shortage is/was caused by people who paniced, thought they needed a gun, fired off a few rounds, and will leave the gun in the original box in a drawer.

That's fine too; just don't think that makes you a shooter.

Dang, I need to learn to edit. End of diatribe.

shotgunred 01-06-2010 05:16

It is what it is. Go over to enos site. On the reloading section the most often question is what is your favorite pet load.

Almost everyone over there is a competition shooter. There are a number of reasons for wanting to get to the best combo as quick as possible. As long as you seek several sources I don't see the harm in it. I switched powders in several calibers after reading about diffrent powders on here and enos. The switch has been for the better for what I am curently doing with my guns.

Kentucky Shooter 01-06-2010 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLDS45S (Post 14485483)
Tell me how hard is it to reload some test loads and check them for accuracy, reliability and safety in your GUNS? Not at all.

No you DONT HAVE TO GET 10 different powders or primers or cases! I think of people trolling for loads as STUPID, UNSAFE, and LAZY reloaders! If you do not have time and inclination to do things right then buy factory ammo!

I understand loads have to be tested in a persons own guns for function, reliability, and accuracy. Just because they work great for me, does not mean they will work the same for you. With that said, I see no harm in sharing ideas on what are classic and time proven loads and ideas---the ones that have consistently worked in a lot of peoples guns. The person should then take the starting point with such loads and develop and tweak themselves. To me, the sharing of such ideas and information should be pretty natural in the reloading section of a gun forum. There are exceptions to everything, but to me if a person is on here seeking information, asking questions, it shows they are trying to get more educated and knowledgable on the subject---at least giving them the benefit of the doubt, thats the way I take it.

steve4102 01-06-2010 06:33

Quote:

As the OP said, if you don't want to take the time to learn, you won't be much of a reloader, in fact, you could be a danger to others on the range and yourself. Those people should just go and buy their ammo. It would be safer for everyone including the shooter.
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

PBKing 01-06-2010 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve4102 (Post 14488248)
BUT, isn't asking questions and seeking advice part of any learning process??? What ever happened to "there are no stupid Questions, only stupid mistakes"?

You guys crack me up, Now that you are all full of years of experience and knowledge you claim the right to tell newcomers (as you guys were once) seeking guidance to Kiss Off and call them Dumb-ass, Lazy and Stupid. Nice!

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.

I think a better analogy is the student asking the teacher for the answers to the questions on a test.
The teacher knows that just giving the answers does not help the student and only encourages slothfulness and discourages study. It is far, far better (for the student)to equip the student with the knowledge, resources and tools to help the student arrive at the correct answer on his own.

Funny, sound like a bunch of liberals that want something for nuttin. Be a man an do some work. You can then take pride in your effort and accomplishments. Pride in Workmanship and Skill....sure do miss those days.

Started Loading in 1984. I have been offering Handloading Classes for almost 10 years. I am always willing to help those who are willing to do the work required. I am still learning everyday.

ETA. I have had many employees over the years. I found it was much easier to hire 18-25 year olds. You didnt have to train them because

"THEY ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING".

Colorado4Wheel 01-06-2010 07:26

When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.

PBKing 01-06-2010 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel (Post 14488461)
When did sharing your favorite load for a caliber/gun become taboo? Seriously, thats nuts. If the end user doesn't cross check your load with something else thats his problem. Not sharing your pet loads in a reloading forum is going to be kinda boring.

Boring? Try turning off the puter and work up some loads. If that is boring your in the wrong hobby.

Colorado4Wheel 01-06-2010 07:48

Not sharing is about as boring a form of interaction I have come across. So basically

Someone asks a question

"Whats a good load for USPSA?"

Answer

"Use some titegroup and figure it out yourself"

NICE!

For example, I and others have shared their Solo 1000 loads many a time. It has resulted in a lot of very interesting discussion. Had that not happened it would have been a lot less interestiong around here.


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